[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

There's a degree of desperation creeping in when this type of approach is used. To be fair, I can sympathise but not empathise with Seph as there's precious little else to prop up his opinion.

Grim said:

I don't like or agree with some of the things the EU have done but at the same time some of the things the UK have done have made me quite angry and are certainly not something as a county we should be proud of - if you can't see that then it must be because there are things you don't want to see either.

It's like he wants to argue with me talking to a different audience.

My opinion is simple and the evidence even stares you and Grim in the face.

1. The UK has left the EU as a result of a close-ish majority referendum vote.

2. The EU don't like that because they lose our money and it might tempt others.

3. The EU wants to differentiate between "benefits" of membership vs a simple trade deal.

4. The UK government wants a simple trade deal so maintaining our sovereignty.

5. The EU demands that they want to continue fishing in our waters as before.

6. The EU demands a "level playing field" that ties us into their laws and courts.

7. If reports are to be believed, everything else has been agreed.

8. The Guvmin has stupidly inflamed negotiations in the Internal Market Bill.

The above list is a pat analysis with minimum of implied criticism of the EU and definite criticism of the UK Guvmin.

Then comes the more emotional response from the likes of me and other intelligent (!) critics of the EU. I won't repeat that now - no need.

So, it seems to me that the difference between Andrew/Grim and the likes of myself come down to Remainer/Leaver sentiments. For Grim to have said that I can't see something the UK has done not to be proud of is plain daft.

My sentiment is simple - we are a sovereign nation not to be ruled to any degree by the EU.