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Originally Posted by Osem
It clearly isn't all false, the UK has a great deal of experience at the hands of EU and even more experience of going it alone fairly successfully. I don't know of anyone who believes getting out will be a panacea but virtually all of them believe the EU's undeniable obsession with such things as ever closer union, open borders and a single currency makes staying in the really scary option.
If we stay in we're going to be treated like a spoilt child who made yet another fuss, stamped their feet and threatened to leave home, was given the chance to do so but then didn't because they were too scared to go it alone. Our credibility in the EU and the world will not be improved by staying in, quite the reverse I believe. The only way to reform the EU into what it could and should have been is for the UK to get out and for other countries to then seek their own referenda. Drastic action is required to save Europe from the EU.
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Given the latest situation in Brussels with 3 attacks in an hour does it not make us a bigger target remaining in the EU? At the moment they seem to be leaving the UK alone and concentrating their efforts on Brussels and Mainland EU. Shouldn't we get out for that reason alone?
---------- Post added at 10:37 ---------- Previous post was at 10:24 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx
I'll pitch in here (sorry it's a bit late) I am an 'inner' for both moral serve serving and technical reasons. On the moral side, it cannot be denied that western Europe has gone through an unprecedented period of peace over the last 60 years. Fostering international co-operation surely must be a good thing both then and now. We are not the same country we were 100 years ago - we do not have an empire any more, enforced by guns. We have to work together in a civilised manner.
The European Union gives a formal framework for co-operation between nations. Issues like workers rights pushed through by the EU can only be a good thing. To say we would have had those anyway relies in our government wanting to preserve those rights. It was only a few days ago our government was proposing cutting welfare to disabled people. Would you trust future governments to keep the rights we have now?
This country is 'European' in outlook, like it or not. We are most like the Scandinavians in terms of how our society is run so why not work together?
From a technical level, I work for an international company that deals with the pharmaceutical industry. The difference between exporting to EU and non-EU countries is clear and that includes countries like Norway and Switzerland by the way. In my personal experience, exporting to non-EU countries takes at least 30 minutes of paperwork above exporting within the EU. In the office I work in, almost every country in the EU is represented so we have language coverage and it's a more interesting vibrant place because of it.
In addition, with the pharmaceutical industry, initiatives like the European Medicines Agency simplify medicines regulation, allowing companies to bring new drugs to market more quickly which drives down costs which, in the end, we will be paying for.
There are arguments saying we could have all of the above through trade agreements outside of the EU but, if that's the case, why leave? We would still have to comply with EU standards but have no influence on how those standards are set up.
Is the EU perfect? No, of course not. Is the UK government perfect, also no. The biggest failing of the EU to promote itself is its openness. The EU publishes pretty much everything it does in the spirit of openness so any proposal is 'out there', regardless on whether those ideas will ever become reality. The European Commission is particularly bad for this. It would be like the UK civil service publishing every idea and proposal.
Phew, a bit of a stream of consciousness there! Most of the reasons why I want to stay in are, to some extent self serving but I think the UK is stronger morally, culturally and financially in the EU
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On your first point. There is no evidence that being in the EU has kept the peace for 60 years. There was peace for 20 years on Europe before we joined. This point, though you're entitled to raise it, is a common theme the Inners use.
Your Second Point. This can all be done outside the EU.
Your Third Point is contradictory: How can we be European yet more like Scandinavians? We tried working together for 40 years and it doesn't work unless you are Brussels!
Technical Point of View:
First Point: Depends on the kind of trade agreement we get with the EU.
Second Point: The UK would have it's own body to do this.
Third Point: Do you really believe we have that much influence? Don't forget the last 40 times we have put something forward in the EU it has been rejected 40 times.
Fourth Point: The EU can never be perfect with becoming a United States of Europe. One Currency, one nation. Do you really want to be Governed from Germany financially and Brussels politically?
Correct they are self serving. To hell with what's best for the UK as long as you are al right Jack, eh?