[Horizon]

Originally Posted by Sirius

Well the Germans tried to rule Europe twice via war now they will do it via the EU

Just had to post that

The Germans are coming at this from a different angle. They feel their "influence" is being eroded by the ever increasing power of Brussels. That's the thing about "ever closer Europe" aka a federal Europe, is that no one country does rule.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

Originally Posted by Anonymouse

According to the Times, Cameron's refusing to pay it. We shall see.

I wonder if this could be an excuse for the war the EU was allegedly set up to prevent between member states of Europe? If so, they'll get what they got in WW2 - a sound thrashing!

One question no-one has answered to my satisfaction: in terms of trading with European countries, why do we 'need' to be part of the EU? The States, Japan et al certainly aren't, and the EU doesn't mind trading with them. Why can't we go it alone?

The entire EU concept doesn't work and never did. The member countries are too different and have different cultures and economies - membership of the EU has not changed that fact in the slightest. The same would be true for the 'world government' so beloved to SF. As long as our culture is driven by the profit motive - the acquisition of wealth at all levels from individual up to government and/or corporations (if there's a difference!) - it can't work. Economic unity and free-trade capitalism are mutually exclusive; trading only works when the two or more parties have different goods to offer each other. If they're all the same, as the EU is trying (and failing, fortunately) to make them, there's no point in trading.

Only in a Star Trek type of world would unity have a chance - and even then we'd have to elect politicians who didn't want the job...because otherwise we'd end up with the harshest tyranny imaginable.

I share your concerns about the different cultures of Europe and would have preferred if the "pace" of European integration were slower, a lot slower.

To answer your point about the benefits of being in the EU, we are part of a single market of 500 million people which is bigger than America and its worth 11 trillion quid. All without trade barriers like customs duties and tariffs. Plus, we broadly have to follow the same rules.

Remember all that guff about Brussels rules dictating that fruit has to be the same size, shape etc. Well, that's simply so that everyone in the EU can trade on the same terms with each other.

---------- Post added at 23:32 ---------- Previous post was at 23:27 ----------

Originally Posted by martyh

Why is Cameron even the slightest bit surprised by this ,after all Eurostat are only using figures that HMG provide .It should also be noted that HMG have made quite a few changes in the last few years as to how they work out how the economy is doing ,they have included a lot of things they should have been including for years ,in other words Cameron has been bigging up the UK economy and now it's bit him right up the ass.

You could liken this to someone over stating there taxable allowances on their return and finally getting caught out

Cameron wasn't surprised, it was all show for the cameras.

What Cameron should have highlighted is the massive rebate we get back from the EU, the one that was negotiated by Thatcher. We pay less into the EU per head of population than anyone else in the EU.

---------- Post added at 23:52 ---------- Previous post was at 23:32 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

The only vote there has ever been was for a common market trading bloc. Not this nonsense.

Roll on a UKIP balance of power holding at the next election and consign the EU mess to the scrap heap of history.

It was never explained to our people in the 70s when that vote happened what "Europe" was all about.

It was never just about a common market but a means to integrate countries together (especially France and Germany) that had fought each other in WW2, so that war in Europe never happened again. Churchill was one of main people behind it, and despite her public musings, so was Thatcher. She signed every single European treaty given to her.

Originally Posted by Derek

I suppose the UK could agree to pay it just as soon as the EU gets its accounts signed off by the auditors.

That should put the matter to bed for the next 25 years or so.

Originally Posted by Matth

And how much of it will go down the great sinkhole of EU bureaucracy, waste and extravagance. If Cameron gets back in, then I hope the EU calls our bluff, and he sticks to his guns and offers a fair and honest referendum.

Sadly, I think it WILL be vote Farage, get Miliband - pity we never got alternative vote, as that would have allowed voting for who you really want, and for best chance of defeating who you don't want.

Obviously, with this bill we have to pay, the subject of Europe is a thorny one at the moment, but that aside, everything is going our way.

They mostly speak our language in the European parliament and comission. They have adopted our free market way of thinking and much of EU law is based on English law.

The EU is wasteful and their accounts haven't been signed off. But we'll win on all of this. We'll get the number of Eurocrats cut down and even decide on one place where "Europe" should be based, rather than the current nonsense of moving between two different locations with all the vast expense that carries.

And the biggest blinder of all, thanks to Major, we can enjoy all things Europe, without having to pay for many of its problems aka we're not in the Euro - Yay! They, in Europe, hate us for that and envy us at the same time. If the Germans could do it all again, there is no way they would have voted to join the euro.

We have the best of both worlds, lets pay that damn bill and get on with it.