[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

West ham have won a trophy in the last eight years and united have gone longer than eight years without winning something before although given your multi club status bothering to research your chosen club of the days history is probably a little much to ask

Which trophy have they won? I can find nothing of it on Wikipedia - I'm talking trophies of any real significance to big clubs, seeing as you're again seemingly trying to compare your team to big clubs.

As we're talking about the modern era, if United had achieved what West Ham had only managed to knock together over 8 years then yes that would be considered a major crisis. Hell, if Arsenal had only managed what Swansea had come up with since 2005 it would be the same. But again in terms of success there's little point in comparing teams like Swansea and West Ham to United and Arsenal.

Originally Posted by TheDaddy

and since when did the Welsh become a race, I know the wee nations generally suffer from a bit of an inferiority complex but designating yourselves as a race is not going to cure that.

Would 'bigot' suit you better?

---------- Post added at 06:23 ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 ----------

Originally Posted by Damien

It's not awful going. Look how difficult a stadium has proved for Spurs and Liverpool. Arsenal at least have an ability to compete for a long time to go thanks to the stadium and Wenger kept them in the Champions League during that time. Football can leave great, historic, teams behind quite quickly and Arsenal made the transition quite smoothly all things considered.

Yes they lost today but the season still has 37 games to go and the transfer window is still open. Arsenal need to get on with it and sign some players and if not those responsible will have to be held to account if Arsenal don't do well this season.

History means nothing however. Plenty of clubs have a brilliant history. Doesn't mean they're underachieving. West Ham had some of the best English players ever and they're not going to win the league this year, doesn't reflect badly on them and they even have a new stadium to come. Huddersfield have had two of the greatest managers ever know to the English game: Shankly and Chapman. They're a long way from the premier league. Nottingham Forest are one of our oldest clubs and have won European cups! History is just that. No one is entitled to a dominance or cups irrespective of how great their club is.

I compare them because the expectation should be linked to their realistic ability to compete for the season ahead and not what they've done before.

All seems a bit like sentimentality to me - you cannot seriously deny there has been a significant decline in Arsenal's results, fortunes and abilities in 8 years. As much as I can't stand your club, during the early to mid 2000s they were one of the PL's dominant teams. The fact is they no longer have any of that intimidation factor and as is, show no signs of resurrecting it.

Originally Posted by Damien

Prior to Wenger the difference between West Ham and Arsenal weren't that big. Both classic British clubs. Arsenal won a few more titles and West Ham boasted a history of great players. The real difference between West Ham and Arsenal was Wenger and luck. Wenger rose Arsenal to a level that took full advantage of the explosion in Premier League revenue and, more importantly, access to the millions of the Champions League. Arsenal were one of the big guns at that time, due to Wenger, and as a result they are where they are now. New stadium, one of the 'big clubs', and supporters around the world. It could so easily have been Blackburn, West Ham, Leeds, Newcastle and others.

But you've just said 'history means nothing' - presumably you're talking about modern era too? As you say Arsenal were one of the big teams but to go from being invincible to winning nothing (and not looking like that would change) for 8 years, selling all the best players without adequately replacing them - I tell you this, if that's what happens to United under Moyes then yes that will be a crisis but I can't see the board holding on to him for half the time Wenger has managed it if he fails to bring in any trophies.

For a team still considered one of the 'big 6' simply reaching the Champion's League final or just coming second in the league should never be accepted as legitimate 'achievements'.