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Originally Posted by Damien
No. We're not talking about competence. We're talking about control. This Government wants a database of all your communications activity and wants secret courts. This despite their lack of 'socialism'.
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Yes,and they want these things cause they've actually moved to left when it comes to privacy and individual rights.The Tories feel they must be more like Labour to win elections,something they now pay a high price for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Porn ban explored by this government, database by both governments, minimum price for drink by both governments. It's hard to see what is only left wing about this.
Also the remit of Government is what you can vote for and people with a different opinion on that from you are not commie-nazis angling for a oppressive genocide state.
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Like I said,the Tories unfortunately are moving more towards the left by entertaining such policies....
You really do have to show me though where I said that people who vote for the left are Commie-Nazis.We were discussing Socialism and and I gave examples of what it can lead to and next you know I've said Labour supporters or Lefties support Genocide,which of course I never did,but nice smear anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Again that isn't what I said. Nice strawman though. Are you just reading off Alex Jones' website?
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There's no need to read off some website... I've heard of Alex Jones but I'm not sure what it is he does or doesn't do. I can't even be bothered to look it up.
My understanding of freedom comes from having had a German step-dad and seeing his Dad,who fought in WW 2, being a complete wreck of a human being and his wife,sons and daughters trying to deal the fallout of that and the misery it has caused in his family.
We had family friends in East Germany whom we visited 3 or 4 times who were one of a very,very few select people who were actually allowed to have their own enterprise,a launderette. I saw the deprivation,how miserable many people were and all the restrictions the state laid upon them with no good reason other than ideology.... the wonders of socialism. I suggest you go visit a socialist state,it'll be an eye-opener.
Oh,and before you come up with the Scandinavian countries again,I'll share something with you.
I've lived in Norway and Germany for a good while,and these countries are quite social,especially Norway.... at least if you look at it from the outside. The difference to Britain is that although the programs are generous their work ethic is almost second-to-none. Being on the dole for no reason is almost despised and the ethic is to work very hard and provide yourself for what you want,and not rely on the state to hand it to you. That is why they can afford such generous state handouts. Their model works because they have a different mentality,and a bit of Oil doesn't hurt either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Oh I didn't know you spoke to someone from a communist country. The only problem is I went to America where they're capitalist and someone there told me that capitalism is the first step to fascism and, if you look it up, it's obvious. Also this guy was an capitalist .
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funny you should say that,because what we have in America and most of the West isn't really Capitalism but Corporatism. I've said before I'm against handouts to companies as well,and to people only when really in need.
I think all of us could do a lot more to help ourselves and those around us.
---------- Post added at 16:23 ---------- Previous post was at 16:05 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
Definitions are important. Just because it may be difficult to find a single point where a extreme form of socialism becomes communism doesn't mean they're not different. The world isn't that black and white and that isn't a left-wing trick to make things difficult, it's just how the world works. Things are complicated.
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Yep,things are complicated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
People were saying people on the left love to control and that the left were responsible for the deaths of 100 million people. Left = socialism = communism = Stalin seems to be the formula that people are trying to advocate. If you're on the left these are the things that you do or the consequences of what you believe.
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Left-leaning,socialist and communist states control more than those with capitalist,Liberal values,FACT.
Also,we would agree that Communism is a form of left-wing ideology,correct? So yes,part of the left are responsible for over 100 million dead.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
That is nasty and it is wrong. It's a sick way to characterise people who disagree with you.
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No,what's nasty,sick and wrong is to see members on this forum playing down the victim's of left-wing policies,of which there are plenty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
The "left wing leaning members" are trying to point that socialism does not mean communism and doesn't have to led to communism. That there are many examples of countries with socialist tendencies that have not succumbed to communism. Also that totalitarianism/fascism is not just the end of the left wing scale but can exist irrespective of the political learnings of the oppressive administration. It's a form of Government control that can be exercised often by people with extremest political views.
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No,what the left-wing members are doing is trying to defend the indefensible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
In the end those the discussion of the extremes is pointless because no one is really advocating communism here. We're talking about control and as I pointed out towards the start, this government has been just as authoritarian as the last so the notion that it's a Labour trend is simply wrong.
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The left love control,always have and always will... sad to see how quickly people forget about Labour's past deeds.
---------- Post added at 16:27 ---------- Previous post was at 16:23 ----------
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ramrod
So we are all agreed that there is a problem defining socialism & communism and where one becomes the other...
This problem has been pointed out by our left wing leaning members and has bogged the thread down nicely.  
This reminds me of the times we discussed the perils of unfettered immigration and it's effects on the social fabric of Britain/England......the same thing happened there as our left wingers immediately challenged us to define what Britishness/Englishness is......thereby bogging down the discussion and shifting it away from the real topic
I don't think it's a deliberate ploy, I suspect it's a left wing knee jerk reaction to an uncomfortable topic.
More reading:
http://www.amazon.com/The-Tyranny-Cl...mm_kin_title_0
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That's exactly what it is...