Quote:
Originally Posted by Damien
I was talking about the EU. You said 'Europe', I presume you meant the whole thing.
I can't prove they don't want to run Europe. It seems to be that since you're making the assertion it's up to you to prove it. I can't prove they don't. That would be impossible.
Why would that be stupid? That's the point I was making. Big difference between having conditions attached to bailout money and 'controlling' a country. I think it is perfectly reasonable for the Germans to demand the Greeks balance their budget before giving them money, why bother otherwise? You would be throwing away money.
They are only giving the bailouts because otherwise they would be in trouble themselves. Germany are only doing what they are forced too as a result of the current circumstances. It's not evidence that they want to run Europe, that implies are far greater control than in evident so far.
I am saying that German actions so far are evidence of a country protecting their economy from further damage, not evidence of a country that otherwise desires greater control on the internal affairs of a country. I think 'run' Europe is a very broad definition and one Germany certainly cannot do. Would they like to favour their own economy? Of course, but they will face opposition from other countries as we all jockey for leverage and influence. France and the UK would do the same. We could easily be having this conversation about France now, if their economy had been stronger over the last few years.
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Right then to recap - now you've moved away from the notion that anyone who dares mention Germany is dredging up WWII, we agree that the Germans are looking after their own interests as any other countries would do. We agree that they're at the heart of Europe. We agree that their economy has done very well nicely out of the EU and Eurozone and it's undeniable that's because they've had such influence in forming the policies which have enabled their economy to prosper at the expense of certain other countries. We agree that they are exercising more control over bailout funds since it's largely German money at stake.
We only seem to differ on the rationale. My opinion is that the Germans have always had a longer term view and have steered EU policy in a direction which suits their economy as a means by which to further their ambitions, not as a means by which to keep Greeks employed. I feel that they will continue on this path, using the weakness of other nations as a lever through which to secure yet more political control within Europe, thereby effectively ruinning the show in actuality if not in name. You have poured scorn aplenty on any such notion, using the old"memories of WWII" argument to try to rubbish that view.
Neither you or can say for sure what the Germans' long term aim is but what you can't deny is that Germany is effectively running the show already and if that wasn't by design then it's a very happy accident for them isn't it. The fact that they didn't engineer or create the crisis we're in doesn't mean that it can't be used to their further long term benefit even if that 'only' means having more political control in 'problem countries' whose internal policies (in conjunction with the realities of the one size fits all Eurozone straightjacket) have created serious issues for the entire EU.
Clearly the Germans see their future at the heart of Europe and aren't about to leave anytime soon so until you can come up with a convicning reason why they wouldn't want more control of the whole shebang to better secure German interests, I'll be sticking to my view and it has nothing to do with WWII.