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Originally Posted by Osem
We are where we are and the EU won't accept our influence unless we're part of the Eurozone which we clearly don't want to be. Are you saying we should join the Euro in order to bring it down?
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I was talking about the EU. You said 'Europe', I presume you meant the whole thing.
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What evidence do you have that Germany don't want to 'run' Europe? Their massive influence in Europe has brought them huge benefits, why wouldn't they want more? If they're having nightmares about how much influence they have, why not just stop influencing policy?
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I can't prove they don't want to run Europe. It seems to be that since you're making the assertion it's up to you to prove it. I can't prove they don't. That would be impossible.
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Why wouldn't they want more control over the likes of Greece (which you've criticised for not running their affairs properly) and therby lessen the risk to Germany eh? Why wouldn't they then want to have more control over countries like Portugal and Spain which pose even greater risks to Germany? That'd be stupid wouldn't it?
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Why would that be stupid? That's the point I was making. Big difference between having conditions attached to bailout money and 'controlling' a country. I think it is perfectly reasonable for the Germans to demand the Greeks balance their budget before giving them money, why bother otherwise? You would be throwing away money.
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Anyway, they're doing it already aren't they by pulling the strings when it comes to the Greek bailout and I really don't understand how you can accept that they're doing it in Germany's interests but at the same time claim they don't want to have more control in Europe given the much larger risks to Germany via Spain and Italy. 
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They are only giving the bailouts because otherwise they would be in trouble themselves. Germany are only doing what they are forced too as a result of the current circumstances. It's not evidence that they want to run Europe, that implies are far greater control than in evident so far.
I am saying that German actions so far are evidence of a country protecting their economy from further damage, not evidence of a country that otherwise desires greater control on the internal affairs of a country. I think 'run' Europe is a very broad definition and one Germany certainly cannot do. Would they like to favour their own economy? Of course, but they will face opposition from other countries as we all jockey for leverage and influence. France and the UK would do the same. We could easily be having this conversation about France now, if their economy had been stronger over the last few years.