[TheDon]

Originally Posted by Russ

That's just one situation out of many Cara-inspired botches.

And I've posted many more in this thread that weren't his fault as well.
The Chavo match that was absolutely dreadful for a start, was Chavo messing up multiple times.

You can't tell me that when the other guy messes up the catch it's Sin Cara's fault.

Originally Posted by Russ

And they would not keep him doing something he could not do - which is why they're keeping the character but probably not the man.

They're keeping the character regardless as it's a money spinner. I still think we'll see Sin Cara v1 back, because Hunico just doesn't have the same level of talent or ring presence. If they do stick with Hunico it'll only take a couple more matches of just splashes before the crowd tires of it, it's really not like watching the same character at all.

Originally Posted by Russ

I think you're showing your naivety in comparing a once/twice-a-year match to something that happens 3 or 4 times a week.

Not really, I'm just showing that WWE aren't exactly famed for their no risk policies. There's plenty that goes on that is equally as dangerous. Sin Cara not being able to see clearly isn't anywhere near as dangerous as a MITB match as none of his moves are genuine injury risks if they fail, it just makes them harder to land. It'll only ever lead to botches not injuries as none of his stuff is ever really forceful.

Originally Posted by Russ

Which is why I called him Rey with the volume turned up. Much of what Rey did 10 years ago is similar to what Cara does now. As long as the matches are properly planned then there is little or no scope for these constant botches.

I wouldn't say Rey has ever been that similar to Sin Cara's style, but let us not forget Rey hasn't ever been botch free either.
I agree that proper planning would avoid the botches, but that planning isn't just on the part of Sin Cara. When a lot of them come from people mistiming catches or just plain doing them wrong, you can't put the whole blame on the guy who does his part right.

Originally Posted by Russ

Nothing wrong with that. When Christian came back from TNA he went from being one of their top guys to a WWE jobber. Vince may have been making a statement towards Dixie Carter with that but it shows he has no problem in showing people that no one guy is bigger than WWE.

Never said there was anything wrong with it. In fact I support it as sometimes people do need reigning in else they just start thinking they're bigger than they are. I'm just saying it's an alternative explanation for the way he's been treated recently rather than "the guys being released". They put a lot of money into him, and it can't really be recovered by shoving Hunico in the mask.

Originally Posted by Russ

Unless you're actively involved in the business, I very much doubt you'd know exactly how it works.

This reminds me of a female friend I have who keeps blaming men for her getting dumped by each man she goes out with. It's always their fault apparently, not hers.

The use of agents in each match cannot be overstated - I believe the original Cara had Pat Patterson - and when a legend such as PP can't get SC to iron out his botches, there's something very wrong.

Not involved in the business, but have friends who wrestle the UK circuit, I've seen how they all plan for matches, how they discuss spots so know what goes into your average wrestling match. It's not on the scale of WWE obviously, but from the grass roots all the way to the top the process doesn't change that much.
Especially as in the WWE there generally isn't that much time to prep for matches in the mid and low cards, they get decided fairly late, and it's not unusual for a decision on who's going to win still being up in the air when they enter the ring and it being decided which way to go mid match.

There's plenty of ex-wrestler stories as well that go into how little prep work they get in the WWE due to how last minute a lot of the booking is.

Originally Posted by Russ

Let's use different logic. One man comes in with a particular style which he will have been told (and would have agreed to) has to be modified to fit in with everyone else. In a set period (let's say 6 months) he has shown no adaptations to his style and the mistakes continue whether against low card workers or more talented guys. It gets to the point they like his image but have to replace the man. Who is more likely to be at fault?

But he wasn't told that. He was bought in to wrestle his high flying style. He was sold to the fans as a high flyer, his entrance is even him jumping into the ring to reinforce the fact the guy is a pure high flyer.
Then he's put up against guys who've never wrestled against a high flyer, and THEY mess up the catches on him.

Originally Posted by Russ

It isn't Cara's responsibily to "train the guys up". My issue is with him constantly making mistakes which threaten to expose the business and not showing any signs of improvement. The WWE HQ has an open door policy, if Cara needed more training or help he could seek it. Either he hasn't or has sought it but it has been ineffective for whatever reason. I've worked with 4 former WWE wrestlers and 3 FCW trainees and they've all made it clear help is always available. If Cara was thrown in the deep end too soon that's one thing but at the very least I'd expect improvement by now.

I'm not saying he isn't a technically decent performer. But his botches are far too common.

Please point me to videos of HIS botches. I've linked to videos in this thread of botches that are attributed to him that weren't his fault, so I feel that you should be able to link to these many many botches that are his fault.
The fact is HE isn't constantly making mistakes, there have been a couple of times he has (I can remember one off the top of my head which result in someone calling an audible "repeat the spot"), but no more than anyone else. There's just this huge focus on him being a botch machine because he was a high profile signing, and his first match had a botched entrance and a pretty obvious botch (neither of which were his fault) so people instantly decided he was a botch machine.

The match with Chavo did little to change that, because it was dire, but again, not just because of Sin Cara.

Originally Posted by Russ

Upon getting signed by WWE the first thing a wrestler is told "everything you have learned is wrong". Vince (rightly or wrongly) wants his guys working a certain way. He won't expect a complete overhaul, just a change to the WWE way. He expects certain workers to retain their form (again using him as an example, whilst using the WWE style you can tell William Regal is a European-based worker) but technically it should the McMahon way.

For example, watch WWE guy executing a suplex. He'll always grab the sleeper by the shorts/trunks on his hips. That makes little sense as it makes it harder to control the sleeper's body. The European (and in fact in the much of the rest of the world) way is to hold them on the thigh or knee, it makes it much easier to control the move. But no, Vince won't have that.

Yeah but none of his botches have really been about doing moves usually done in WWE in a different way.
They've all really been down to either bad catches or bad positioning.

I'd completely understand if Sin Cara was somehow trying to swim against the tide, but I've not really seen any evidence of that.

Originally Posted by Russ

His push is indeed based on his turning on Miz (something which has been used over and over for years) and yes he's green but as for the rest of what you're saying, we must be watching different Alex Reillys.

You're not a UKFF user by any chance?

He can't stand on the ring apron which actually messed up a major storyline of the match.
He can't even throw a guy through the ropes

I'd point out more, but I'd just be linking to pretty much the entire of his last 3 matches.

Saddens me that guys like Alex Riley get pushed whilst Zack Ryder is stuck on superstars.

Nah I occassionally read UKFF, but never posted there. I'd get into too many debates like this one