[Russ]

Originally Posted by TheDon

Primo slipped off the rope. No amount of talking things through would have improved the ability of Primo to stand on the top rope.

That's just one situation out of many Cara-inspired botches.

Originally Posted by TheDon

Money money money. This is WWE, they do everything for the money. The entire reason Hunico is in the Sin Cara mask is so they can carry on selling them at $70 a pop.
They wanted a quick return on the huge investment they made on him.

And they would not keep him doing something he could not do - which is why they're keeping the character but probably not the man.

Originally Posted by TheDon

MITB ladder matches show the sort of level of danger WWE thinks is allowable. Many a wrestler (most recently CM Punk) have come out and said they'd be happy if they never had to wrestle another one because of how dangerous they are. So yes, I think WWE would do something that wasn't entirely safe.

I think you're showing your naivety in comparing a once/twice-a-year match to something that happens 3 or 4 times a week.

Originally Posted by TheDon

So you think introducing a guy straight into the main event roster that hardly anyone on the roster has experience in dealing with is the right thing to do?
He isn't just another Rey, his moves are a whole level above what Rey does. His moves are several levels about what Hunico does.

Which is why I called him Rey with the volume turned up. Much of what Rey did 10 years ago is similar to what Cara does now. As long as the matches are properly planned then there is little or no scope for these constant botches.

Originally Posted by TheDon

There's rumours of plenty of stuff. It doesn't all turn out right.
Sin Cara has been rumoured to be released near enough since he started. I'll believe it when it happens. As of right now everything just seems like WWE taking a guy that came in with a huge attitude from being the best where he was and going "here you're nothing, we can replace you at any time" to get his personality back in check.

Nothing wrong with that. When Christian came back from TNA he went from being one of their top guys to a WWE jobber. Vince may have been making a statement towards Dixie Carter with that but it shows he has no problem in showing people that no one guy is bigger than WWE.

Originally Posted by TheDon

I know exactly how it works.
How do you know that that didn't happen, that the moves weren't worked over, and then in the ring the other guy didn't still mess them up?

Unless you're actively involved in the business, I very much doubt you'd know exactly how it works.

This reminds me of a female friend I have who keeps blaming men for her getting dumped by each man she goes out with. It's always their fault apparently, not hers.

The use of agents in each match cannot be overstated - I believe the original Cara had Pat Patterson - and when a legend such as PP can't get SC to iron out his botches, there's something very wrong.

Originally Posted by TheDon

Lets look at it logically, you've got one guy who's worked the same style his entire career used to the moves, and another guy, who's been talked through them before the match with no real experience of them. When the move fails who's more likely to be the one making the mistake?

Let's use different logic. One man comes in with a particular style which he will have been told (and would have agreed to) has to be modified to fit in with everyone else. In a set period (let's say 6 months) he has shown no adaptations to his style and the mistakes continue whether against low card workers or more talented guys. It gets to the point they like his image but have to replace the man. Who is more likely to be at fault?

Originally Posted by TheDon

If you're going to blame Sin Cara for not doing enough to train the guys up then you surely you should be agreeing that he shouldn't have been instantly thrown into the roster. It's amazing that the people who the botches have been against are people that struggle with WWE style wrestling as well. It's not like he's gone against a decent worker and botched as well.

It isn't Cara's responsibily to "train the guys up". My issue is with him constantly making mistakes which threaten to expose the business and not showing any signs of improvement. The WWE HQ has an open door policy, if Cara needed more training or help he could seek it. Either he hasn't or has sought it but it has been ineffective for whatever reason. I've worked with 4 former WWE wrestlers and 3 FCW trainees and they've all made it clear help is always available. If Cara was thrown in the deep end too soon that's one thing but at the very least I'd expect improvement by now.

I'm not saying he isn't a technically decent performer. But his botches are far too common.

Originally Posted by TheDon

Sin Cara has proven over his career that he can do these moves without botching, WWE signed him to do these moves. That the moves are getting botched are down to the other person not having any experience in doing them, and that isn't something Sin Cara can solve by discussing spots before a match.

Upon getting signed by WWE the first thing a wrestler is told "everything you have learned is wrong". Vince (rightly or wrongly) wants his guys working a certain way. He won't expect a complete overhaul, just a change to the WWE way. He expects certain workers to retain their form (again using him as an example, whilst using the WWE style you can tell William Regal is a European-based worker) but technically it should the McMahon way.

For example, watch WWE guy executing a suplex. He'll always grab the sleeper by the shorts/trunks on his hips. That makes little sense as it makes it harder to control the sleeper's body. The European (and in fact in the much of the rest of the world) way is to hold them on the thigh or knee, it makes it much easier to control the move. But no, Vince won't have that.

Originally Posted by TheDon

He does. Watch his matches. His entire push is based on the pop from him turning on Miz. He was stuck in FCW for years because he never improved. He still hasn't improved. The guy is a danger in the ring. He's green as hell. If it wasn't for the huge pop he got on his face turn he'd be no where near TV.
He's just another example of WWE doing dangerous stuff if it's good for ratings.

His push is indeed based on his turning on Miz (something which has been used over and over for years) and yes he's green but as for the rest of what you're saying, we must be watching different Alex Reillys.

You're not a UKFF user by any chance?