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Originally Posted by Foreverwar
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So anyone selling their country out can hide behind a principle developed in the 18th century long before we became involved in the EU? No sorry I don't agree with that. Collective responsiblity when the public are being deceived about
who governs them is wrong.
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Originally Posted by Foreverwar
You say deceit - I say democratic government; and never the twain shall meet. I loved your point about "I have said nothing vitriolic", and then in the next line state "if helping them means selling out to the EU, I'll pass" - lmao. I say vitriol, you say reasoned discussion.
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So how would you describe the actions of government in giving up sovereignty over the last 30 odd years? Do tell.
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Originally Posted by Foreverwar
Your statement "You didn't answer my question ... "If you can show me how John Major's Tories were elected on a ticket of giving great swathes of sovereign power ...". Which of the other bills that were passed in his (re-elected) government, and which of the bills in Margaret Thatcher's government, were "put to the people"? Or do only the ones you disagree with count? He and his party were elected to govern in a representative manner, not a delegated manner - no government could rule in that manner.
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Any bill giving up sovereignty to a entity as undemocratic as the EU should have been put to the people, unless the issue had already been properly identified in an election campaign. Politicians (including Thatcher) were too deceitful for that so it the issue was never discussed. Comparing this kind of bill with the poll tax is not valid; the poll tax was within an incoming British government's power to repeal. Nothing we have agreed to in the EU is. A power, or competence, once handed over to the EU becomes part of its sacred
acquis communautaire and is never returned. Do you see the difference?
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Originally Posted by Foreverwar
It appears to me (imho) that you have re-justified to me the reasons I left politics - I accept that you have a viewpoint, and that you are entitled to put it, but it seems that others are not allowed to disagree with you.
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Of course you and anyone else is allowed to disagree, but you haven't satisfactorily justified the deceit imo, just as your party refuses to justify its actions. Can you say why membership of the EU is good for the British people? Also I am not particularly sorry to have 're-justified' your opinion given your view that John Major was in the right.
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Originally Posted by Foreverwar
But in the end, your viewpoint was not that of the majority of the elected representatives in Government, and your viewpoint did not prevail. John Major's government were elected to govern, not to run back to the country everytime some right-wing loony got upset. I don't remember Maggie putting the Poll Tax to the country?
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If the public had been properly informed of the government's plans, do you think they would have won the election? The Tories were obviously not confident enough to ask. John Major's government was not elected to hand over sovreignty. And you might like to explain why debate on the EU should be considered a "right wing looney" issue. Do a good job and you triumph, ok?
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Originally Posted by Foreverwar
re vitriol - some quotes from your posts -
- If you think socialist tax policies are common sense I am surprised you have voted Tory all your life, although I suppose it depends on how long a life you have had.
- I hope you will carry on being proud to pay your tax bill
- Elective dictatorship anyone? But I understand you are satisfied with what is on offer so this doesn't concern you!
- Mainstream politicians support the enlargement of the EU, next in line is Romania and Bulgaria and their 29 million citizens, and even Turkey with its 69 million, 99% of whom are Muslim.
- Will the influx of more immigrants, especially muslim ones, help the British people in any way?
- Huge difference in culture perhaps? Honour killings and arranged marriages, race riots between ethnic groups, the growth in religious fundamentalism, and even suicide bombers.
- Our political elite's refusal to be honest about the EU and its intentions is as deceitful today as it has ever been. Any politician who thinks "Europe" isn't worth political debate is either an outright liar or a naive fool.
- John Major ... decent and honourable, you have to be joking!
- As a man of the people, he sucks!
- Most of them have now crossed over to the dark side
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You are entitled to see honestly stated, and imo thoroughly deserved opinions (which I stand by), as vitriolic if you wish. On your scale the treatment meted out to the Maastricht rebels by Major and his whips must have been downright malevolent.
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Originally Posted by Foreverwar
So, in summary -
An elected government, with Collective Cabinet Responsibility, passed a bill that you disagreed with - get over it.  |
When politicians start being a damn sight more honest, I'll be more than happy to. Until then, forget it.