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Originally Posted by punky
I already said though, it isn't my style. I'm like Incog, if someone says something bad, i'll just tut and shake my head, and move on.
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Ah, I must have been reading messages in this thread by someone else called "Punky" then...
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Don't want to be accused of censorship either 
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Objecting to a personal attack != Censorship.
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You don't perhaps think that it could just maybe be *both*?
Also please remember that "conservative" and "liberal" are merely *opinions*. They are not graven in stone anywhere.
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No, if that was the case, he'd say it at the same time. I.e. "England is both a liberal and conservative country due to hisheavy multicultural mix". He says things like: "America is so conservative because of ...." and the in another chapter he will say: "America is so liberal because of....".
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I'm sorry, but I don't follow the logic of this at all. Just because he *doesn't* say something like "England is both a liberal and conservative country due to hisheavy multicultural mix" in the *same* chapter, but addresses different points in different chapters he is (as far as I can tell from what you're implying) contradicting himself.
This seems to me to be more like him not trying to confuse people by including too many points in one place.
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I'll post my response to your addendum here, as it is more relevent here. The reason why I backtracked a bit is because it is so difficult to tie Moore to anything. [...] I said he hates Americans because of the way he attacks them, but then I rememebered he said something a while ago, which said he loved them.
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But Moore has *NEVER* said *HE* "hates Americans"! This is something which *others* have said about him.
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It may have been an assumption, but it was based on experience. I posted you some Moorewatch stuff, and you treated it with disdain. You could have a totally different outlook if you read something new on Moorewatch, but I doubt it. If you want i'll keep providing links to them when it is relevent.
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Yes, I treated the stuff on Moorewatch with disdain because it is being written from a biased viewpoint. If you can post links from a credible, *impartial* source, I will be happy to read them.
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I was asking for cites that "On of the big things that Moore fans say, is that "Why can't that bank offer something other than guns?"
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I'm trying to find where I saw it, but see my above point. It is hard trying to find what commentators said, when that is the only lead I have.
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In which case it can't be that much of a "big thing", can it?
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What I would also say though is this: It is what Moore wants you to think, by offering guns.
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No, that's your *opinion* of what *you* think Moore wants you to think.
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You think when you see that, that apart from 'America being a gun-nut country', why can't the bank offer something a bit more constructive?
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No, I think it's irresponsible for a bank to be offering guns, full stop.
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His tack changes depending on who is paying the piper and you casually dismiss that as if it's irrelevant?!
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At the risk of sounding patronising, (which I don't want to do, but can't avoid it), that is the way the world works.
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And at the risk of sounding rude: BALDERDASH!!
Who was it who said in post #18 of this thread" "Why have principles when you can have money instead?"
Or in post #51 "If he hated America, he leave his rather nice $1.9m Manhatten apartment, and his $1.2m Michigan lakeside home, and move to Canada or Germany, or even to England, like he is always threatening. Or that is what he'd do if he had principals, which he doesn't."
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I prefer a partially relevent film to be released rather than no film released at all.
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And I prefer someone to be honest and true enough to their principles to stick it out, not sacrifice their principles for money!
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This is nonsense and is attacking Moore personally for what he "is" (according to some) rather than what he *says*.
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No, he says that as well. When he goes to Canada, he always says, something along the lines of "Thank God i'm now in a sane safe country", etc. Valid point about attacking his character. Is it fair? Ordinarily I would say no, but Moore attacks everyone elses character, so I would say yes.
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Ah, now we're back with the "he started it" arguments...
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If you normally gloss over our big posts, I implore you to read this part anyway
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I hope the "you" you are referring to here is to *other* readers of this post, otherwise I would find the implication in this comment to be extremely offensive.
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If you want an example, i'll give you one. I found it out last night and Moore had sunk to a new low.
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A man called Joe Scarborough criticised Moore.
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An interesting example. Now let's add a few more facts.
Joe Scarborough is a former Republican Congressman and is now a talk-show host on MSNBC. From some googling on his name it appears that his opinions are of the sort that George W Bush can do no wrong and Michael Moore is the Devil incarnate.
He is a former Congressman because he decided not to stand for re-election after his intern was found dead.
Now whilst I'm all for giving someone the benefit of the doubt and a fair trial, this is a strange confluence of events.
He is also quoted from an interview:
* * * * *
SCARBOROUGH: When he has time for you, just tell him to stop going around calling me a murderer or I`m going to have to call my lawyers. Will you do that for me?
GOLDBERG: Well, I`m sure you can get to him yourself, Joe, but I appreciate you having me on. I really do.
* * * * *
Now *WHY* is he asking an *INTERVIEWER* to tell Michael Moore something? If he has been slandered by falsely accused of murder, why aren't his lawyer slapping injunctions on Moore left, right and centre?
For more about the story of her alledged murder (or, rather the lack of it...) see
http://www.americanpolitics.com/20010808Klausutis.html
(I'm not sure, but that site does appear to have a Democratic bias, however it does make some interesting points anyway)
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Moore goes ballistic at anyone who criticises him and goes into attack mode. He dug, and dug for dirt, but eventually found out that a woman died in his office.
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Well given the lack of reporting as detailed in the above link, it's not surprising he had to "dig and dig"
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She died of a heart-attack.
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Well that, too, seems somewhat open to question.
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When Moore found this out, he started up the website: joescarboroughkilledhisintern.com (see the whois here for proof. It is registered to his production company, Dog Eat Dog films in NY. The admin's email is on the michaelmoore.com domain.)
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And this is "proof"? It may be true, however it *could* also be a "Joe Job" by someone who wants to stitch Moore up.
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Then he preceded to tell people in speeches just that. It isn't clear wether Moore did this before or after the coroners report, but either way it is dispicable. Accusing an innocent man of murder because he criticised your work? And then he poured scorn over the coroner in speeches making him seem incompetent.
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But again I point out from the above link, that its *NOT JUST* Moore who is doing this.
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Even if Moore didn't distort the facts in his book and movies, and I agreed with them, this kind of stunts would make me detest him for life.
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I agree that it is distasteful, but I think it's not quite as one-sided as you just portrayed it.
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He does hate Americans though.
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You mis-understood me. I meant Americans as in two or more Americans. I didn't say "all Americans" or "Americans in general", etc. He doesn't hate every American, but he does hate some.
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Pardon me if the following sounds like a personal attack, but that comment, to me, sounds like what is generally known as "a weasel".
If you meant "some Americans" or "one or two Americans taken together you should have said so or, at least, chosen your words with more care.
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If you wanted to start a debate, would you do it with a personal attack by calling someone a liar or saying they "Hate America"???
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The movie title was fixed before he had to change funding sources.
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I wasn't talking about the *movie* title! I was talking about him standing up at an event Michael Moore was at and *saying* those words!
That is *not* a good way to start a debate.
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Besides, even if he didn't, Moore said "anyone, anytime", and he other places, he said he loves debating "right-wing conservatives" even better. He can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.
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And you make another sweeping generalisation to finish. You pick *one* example (and a poor one for the reason above) and try to parlay it into a general case.