[punky]

Originally Posted by Graham

If you think I am making personal attacks on you, then please feel free to use the "report post" function.

I already said though, it isn't my style. I'm like Incog, if someone says something bad, i'll just tut and shake my head, and move on. Don't want to be accused of censorship either

Originally Posted by Graham

You don't perhaps think that it could just maybe be *both*?

Also please remember that "conservative" and "liberal" are merely *opinions*. They are not graven in stone anywhere.

No, if that was the case, he'd say it at the same time. I.e. "England is both a liberal and conservative country due to hisheavy multicultural mix". He says things like: "America is so conservative because of ...." and the in another chapter he will say: "America is so liberal because of....". I'll post my response to your addendum here, as it is more relevent here. The reason why I backtracked a bit is because it is so difficult to tie Moore to anything. I said he was a versatile fella, but that is an understatement. Since I found out that what he said were lies, and I fell for it, i've kind of made it life's work at the moment to find out as much as I can about him. For the last year, i've read so much about him. That is a lot of material (one reason it is so hard to find where I saw a particular quote or something). Now, i'd say Moore is X because of Y... After I post that, I rememeber that in a previous book or movie, he said something completely different which contradicts what I have said. I said he hates Americans because of the way he attacks them, but then I rememebered he said something a while ago, which said he loved them. Wether it is deliberate on his part or not, you can't accuse him of something, as the opposite would also be true somewhere.

Originally Posted by Graham

Please don't make unwarranted assumptions about what I may or may not do. They don't help your arguments and could be considered "uncivil" or "disrespectful" for instance.

It may have been an assumption, but it was based on experience. I posted you some Moorewatch stuff, and you treated it with disdain. You could have a totally different outlook if you read something new on Moorewatch, but I doubt it. If you want i'll keep providing links to them when it is relevent.

Originally Posted by Graham

Thank you, but I was not asking for details of how the scheme works, I was asking for cites that "On of the big things that Moore fans say, is that "Why can't that bank offer something other than guns?"

I'm trying to find where I saw it, but see my above point. It is hard trying to find what commentators said, when that is the only lead I have. What I would also say though is this: It is what Moore wants you to think, by offering guns. You think when you see that, that apart from 'America being a gun-nut country', why can't the bank offer something a bit more constructive?

Originally Posted by Graham

But anyways???

His tack changes depending on who is paying the piper and you casually dismiss that as if it's irrelevant?!

At the risk of sounding patronising, (which I don't want to do, but can't avoid it), that is the way the world works. He needed funding. People (personal benefactors not large corporations like Disney) will normally only provide funding to people who share their views. Wilson almost shut the film down about 3 times due to lack of money. Unlike Moore, he had noone to sue to make money to fund a film. I prefer a partially relevent film to be released rather than no film released at all.

Originally Posted by Graham

This is nonsense and is attacking Moore personally for what he "is" (according to some) rather than what he *says*.

No, he says that as well. When he goes to Canada, he always says, something along the lines of "Thank God i'm now in a sane safe country", etc. Valid point about attacking his character. Is it fair? Ordinarily I would say no, but Moore attacks everyone elses character, so I would say yes. If you want an example, i'll give you one. I found it out last night and Moore had sunk to a new low.

If you normally gloss over our big posts, I implore you to read this part anyway

A man called Joe Scarborough criticised Moore. Nothing too out of the ordinary, just the usual Heston speech editing, etc. Moore goes ballistic at anyone who criticises him and goes into attack mode. He dug, and dug for dirt, but eventually found out that a woman died in his office. She died of a heart-attack. When Moore found this out, he started up the website: joescarboroughkilledhisintern.com (see the whois here for proof. It is registered to his production company, Dog Eat Dog films in NY. The admin's email is on the michaelmoore.com domain.) Then he preceded to tell people in speeches just that. It isn't clear wether Moore did this before or after the coroners report, but either way it is dispicable. Accusing an innocent man of murder because he criticised your work? And then he poured scorn over the coroner in speeches making him seem incompetent. Even if Moore didn't distort the facts in his book and movies, and I agreed with them, this kind of stunts would make me detest him for life.

Originally Posted by Graham

Another sweeping generalisation. He has criticised *some* and yet, somehow, this is parlayed into him hating *all* of them.

You mis-understood me. I meant Americans as in two or more Americans. I didn't say "all Americans" or "Americans in general", etc. He doesn't hate every American, but he does hate some. I'll skip over the next point as it is the same.

Originally Posted by Graham

If you wanted to start a debate, would you do it with a personal attack by calling someone a liar or saying they "Hate America"???

The movie title was fixed before he had to change funding sources. Changing the title, was out as it would have killed what little publicity they had. So it lead to the unusual situation that the movie title no longer reflected the tone of the film. He was trying to get Moore for an interview long before the title was set in place. I think it was actually Moore's avoidance of Wilson that lead Wilson to the title and the tone of his movie. Besides, even if he didn't, Moore said "anyone, anytime", and he other places, he said he loves debating "right-wing conservatives" even better. He can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk.