Brexit (Old)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

There are so many entrenched attitudes about this subject, I do agree that we should be concentrating on what the Government is trying to achieve, how they should go about it, alternative ways to achieve what is wanted and the ramifications of all this. It really is pointless continuing to argue that we should stay in the EU. That is not what the electorate voted for and it's not going to happen.

It was a fair point to make by Andrew that there has been little negotiation with the EU this year, but that's because we have made as much progress as we can until next week's Cabinet meeting. There's no point in going over and over old ground when you know that the same old arguments made in talks will not make any progress.

It should not be forgotten that although there is frustration with the amount of time it is taking for the Government to put further detail on the table, there is a lot of intransigence on the EU side as well, which is where most of the bullying language has come from.

I think that if criticism is to be laid at the door of the Government, people would be taken more seriously if they were to set out what they would do if it was up to them to discharge the will of the electorate. Then we can have a sensible debate on more adult terms.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

And their opinion is just as relevant as yours . mine , Micks or any body else's as its pretty obvious that people would have different views and opinions on a whole plethora of issues involving Brexit and that is unlikely to change as its pretty simple to be civil and not resort to insults IMO while debating the many issues involving Brexit.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

yes hope everyone can keep it civil guess we have to wait and see if the government can agree on anything this weekend in TM's Brexit cabinet get together my fears the infighting will continue but we will see

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

You've missed the point, Den. I agree with what you have said, but my point is that we have to get away from going on about taking a decision to remain in the EU. That decision has been taken and we need to concentrate now on moving forward.

Hopefully, we can all agree on that.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

l accepted Brexit and the withdrawal a long time ago OB if one looks back at my posts but everything else is open to discussion and there is plenty there to discuss and debate.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I don't think we are any closer to our Government agreeing with themselves on what we want from the EU:

'Livid' Michael Gove rips up EU customs partnership report

What is significant in this is that it seems that Gove sanctioned the "leak" revealing what he did, making a mockery of any attempt of Cabinet unity. It demonstrates just how weak Mrs May is now unless of course she sacks Gove in the next few hours :)

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

yes just cant see them agreeing anything

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

And time is running out..

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

exactly Den and you will still get some people saying it EU fault unbelievably

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Both are to blame IMO.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

but cant blame EU for uk government not knowing what it wants Den

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Theresa May and her warring cabinet are split from top to bottom with Michael Gove and Boris sticking the knife into her at every opportunity.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Michael Gove is right. Just hold onto your hollihocks - maximum facilitation will win the day. Or at least some sort of variation on that theme.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Just remember Michael Gove has a track record of stabbing his own in the back to further his own leadership ambitions..

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

That is very true, and we all know Gove has form. However, that doesn't detract from the fact that maximum facilitation is the way to go.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

And he runs away afterwards. It's not as if he would actually do the job any better. None of them can.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The politicians as a whole are a bad lot. The Tories are divided much as the country was at the Referendum. Labour are being for power by mocking the Tories without having an acceptable plan of their own. Both parties have difficulty in terms of their remainers in properly accepting the Referendum result.

The 52/48 vote was close enough to warrant a second referendum now that everyone knows what could happen in each of the scenarios. That said, Project Fear told everyone that leaving the EU meant leaving the institutions and Leave still won.

But unless there’s a binding vote in Parliament, we are leaving the EU and the remainers here should respect that.

One more thing, the remainers on the previous thread never challenged me on the facts I laid out about German hegemony and engineering the Euro to their advantage. Germany does not want that aspect of European order disturbed and we wouldbeqell out of that.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I'm confused who is the person posting under the Cable forum name as opposed to the admin and mods I see with user names?

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

It could be any one of the admins or mods but the post has laid down the rules of the thread which all members should follow and admins and mods will enforce.

They have their own section of the forum where they discuss and decide these things.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

That is because remainers can't see any fault within the EU. They think it should go on as it has, like one big happy family. The only reply they have is that we can't fix it when we are 'out of the club'. Problem is, it was never
planned to be fixed when we were in it. If the direction of the EU is tighter fiscal policy, with more control from Brussels, I wonder how long it would be until we would fall under those requirements. How long until our BoE loses more power? I sometimes wonder if our now devalued £ is perfect that if it was to all fail (planned that is). a simple adoption of the Euro would 'fix everything'. There is no telling what could happen in the next few years.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The CF account is used by either Paul or Mick. It is used when either of the site owners wish to give the clearest possible directions about forum conduct at the highest level.

The idea is for members to engage exclusively with the contents of the post without getting hung up on the personality behind it.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The idea of another new thread is to move away from the "toxic" atmosphere that has existed, pretty much since the Referendum result. The bad attitudes consist of "We know better." or "I told you so." and this has happened on both sides, those for Remain and Leave.

The discussion should now be focused on new avenues, this is not a directive to force people to have positive views on Brexit, there are those who just won't accept Brexit and the opposite to this is those who are 100% behind Brexit. There is bound to clashes and absolute differences of opinion. Rather than each side chanting at each other, there should now be some effort to meet each other half way.

Every body should want to see Brexit being a success. There is no denial from me that, the British Government needs to get their act together and strive for a workable deal with the EU, the EU also needs to work towards possible solutions, not taking cheap digs at the UK, which some EU officials have done, like Jean Claude Juncker, insisting the UK leaving the EU, 'will not be an amicable divorce.'

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

the thing is only way can be a deal is if the uk government can agree on something that they want and if not it gonna be a no deal which will be very big disaster for us IMHO

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Brexit transition could be extended to help firms as deep divisions remain in cabinet.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...clark-suggests

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The Cabinet is united in most respects, but there are a few sticking points which are matters of detail and require careful consideration.

Something as complex as Brexit was never going to be done and dusted in a jiffy. Decisions made now will affect our trading relationship with the EU for a very long time so it is right to take time in order to get it right.

And when it comes to delays, the EU should not be let off the hook so easily. They have been less than co-operative, to say the least.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

They will agree a deal, Dave. The only reason Gove made the gesture he did in relation to the 'Customs Partnership' idea was that he knew he wouldn't risk his office by doing so. Despite some press reports to the contrary, Theresa May is not wedded to the idea of a customs partnership and she understands that this would prevent us from forging new trade deals. However, it is on the agenda for debate because some remainers within her Cabinet rather like that idea.

The only solutions available are 'maximum facilitation' or 'no deal'. That is the real choice. The EU doesn't want a 'no deal' because the EU has an €80bn annual trade surplus with Britain. So it doesn't really take a lot of brain power to work out the best option both for Britain and the EU.

Common sense will prevail in the end. :)

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Not sure that the EU would be happy for an extension unless the UK contributed to the EU budget and doubt Messrs Gove, Johnson and Rees-Mogg would be keen.
But if the Cabinet can't agree on Friday then I guess extending the road so that Theresa May can continue to kick her tin can down it is a possibility.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I have no doubt they will agree, Andrew. And it will be a version of maximum facilitation. It's the obvious way forward.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I think we should simply go for a hard brexit if we are not closer to a deal by March next year. The EU is playing hard ball seeing how long the UK will hold out. No point extending out to have another year or 2 of nothing and paying more wasted money into the EU for a large bill to pay for leaving as well.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

OB makes an excellent point about the £80 billion and how likely it would be that the agreement he suggests will happen, albeit at the last minute.

Remainers usually avoid this part of the discussion.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The EU is waiting for us to tell them what we want. That is finally, apparently, being sorted this week but we'll see. Every time the deadline comes the Government fudges it because May is too weak to take on her cabinet.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Then the EU will say no...next plan?

As for them all agreeing, of course they will. They won't climb down any...May will. She will cave to all their demands, like she always does.

Then the EU will say no (like they have on everything else), which May will have to submit on and round the circle goes.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Do you think May will present both customs options to the EU? Both will be likely declined anyway unless they've changed substantially from what was previously described.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Yeah also a lot of sites use a generic staff admin account to have the good temperament of plausible deniability, which is great. :D

You just narrowed it down to 2 possible culprits lol...I'd leave it open to interpretation that all of the staff may have had the chance to make the call, lol.

I am a brat like that.

/Rasp

Back to seriousness, if there are any posts from the previous thread aimed our way that we can reply to or do we just let that go...I think that there were a couple aimed at me but I didn't have the time this week / weekend to reply to them - should I just forget about them now / answer them here etc?

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Simply because of the lack of a majority, of course.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Which makes your decision to say that it was a good idea to call an election all the more baffling.

It wasn't just executed poorly, it was a dreadful idea. (She was always going to lose).

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

the infighting more likely OB they always been infighting about Europe even when they had majority's

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

You're wrong there, Chloé. It's approaching 'get real' time. If we don't get anywhere with the EU, May will simply go for the hard Brexit. However, I think she is trying to avoid that by getting other EU countries on side. They have a firmer grasp of reality than Barnier & co.

I think a lot of bad things about the EU, but I don't think they are actually certifiably mad, and that we will get a deal with them.

If we don't things don't look good for the EU. They won't get their €40bn, they will suffer through what will happen to their exports to us, and they will have a new upstart competitor sporting lower tax rates for business with whom they cannot compete. Seriously, if you were Barnier, would you really dig your heels in?

---------- Post added at 19:12 ---------- Previous post was at 19:10 ----------

Nobody expected her to lose at first. The dreadful truth began to dawn during the election campaign.

---------- Post added at 19:16 ---------- Previous post was at 19:12 ----------

It now looks as though the battle for minds has been won. The Cabinet meeting on Friday will agree the way forward. It will be a deal involving maximum facilitation or a hard Brexit. Basically, that is our choice, and I think finally, the remainers and Brexiteers are beginning to agree that there is no other way forward.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

That is an interesting conundrum - actually can she even present both? I am not sure on the aspect of white paper traditions / customs - can it be an either / or option?

Chris / Hugh / Damien etc might know but I am assuming that she will have no choice but to narrow it down to one?

Yeah I figure the EU will tell Davis / Department for existing the EU that they either accept the principles or get no access to the SM / agree to collective trade deals or have tariffs and barriers / allow NI to remain a part of the EU SM or face a hard border etc etc.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Theresa May will not agree to present both options to the EU because the customs partnership option involves remaining in the customs union, which means we can't do our own trade deals. This isn't even an option, as it strips away the advantage for us in leaving the EU - in fact, it leaves us in a worse position than we have now. How does that make sense for the UK?

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

hard Brexit will be a utter disaster for uk falling of cliff edge and the ones that voted Brexit be first ones to complain

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

No, it won't, you've fallen for the Project Fear argument.

There may be initial minor disruption, but our future still looks great with a 'no deal'. The EU would live to regret its decision in that scenario.

---------- Post added at 19:34 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

In which case, the EU lose.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Thats my point we voted to leave not get the best deal possible, Cameron already tried that before calling the referendum and was told to take the long walk.

All the EU is trying to do is stall the UK into project fear and managing to get a few large firms backing with threats to leave. Probably offered back handers from those dark shadows that float about the EU.

I agree it's about time we start telling the EU what we want not what they want

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

you falling for the unicorn argument OB why you think Boris said f business and hunt telling them to shut up weren't they supposed to be party of business and why you think we got lowest growth in g7 when we were near top before referendum result and why you think businesses are looking at relocating to Europe

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Just go for the Hard Brexit then the EU negotiate against it :D

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

It doesn't - but then again leaving the EU in any sense didn't, either. So in that sense, it is fitting that that May continues on with the absurdities.

How does it make sense for the EU to allow a nation outside of the EU to have friction less trade but make their own trade deals?

Make trade deals, fine - but you won't get friction less trade + you will have to accept a hard border in Ireland. You are right, the EU will not punish the UK...it will force the UK to chose how to hurt itself.

On the whole "present 2 plans" aspect I only meant in regards to procedure / process, not the merits. All I was asking is that I wasn't sure if it could be done with a white paper is all - I had no interest in hearing the talking points of the merits, yet in more time. That argument has been made, over and over.

I was just curious as to the procedural hurdles.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Hopefully, he will be cleared and the National Crime Agency will find him innocent of all charges and Russian influence.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...anks-962cct78b (subscription, original article)
Non-subscription, citing The Sunday Times article. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8425321.html

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

OB has logically and cogently explained what would happen should sense prevail. Simply saying that a hard Brexit will be an utter disaster has no merit until you can refute OB’s logic.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Unicorns never existed and I have never believed in them, Dave.

The reason that big business should shut the hell up is because they are undermining our ability to negotiate a sensible deal with the EU.

The reason our growth rate has lowered following the referendum is entirely due to the uncertainty all this has caused. Business hates uncertainty. But once a decision is made, you can look forward to growth rates soaring.

Some businesses are looking to relocate to Europe, but they are in the minority.

It will be clear five years from now that leaving the EU was the best decision the UKMhas made in modern times.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

If you recall, Theresa May's favoured solution is the customs partnership one. The hard Brexiters like Gove favour the £20bn-a-year proposal aka MaxFax. He actually ripped up Theresa May's document on the customs partnership recently. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-44668572

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

While we're all busy baiting each other over Brexit, all the stories about what is actually wrong with the EU are not reported. Or reported and ignored.

http://www.cityam.com/288405/angela-...her-own-making

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The £20 billion figure was a flat calculation across the business board of the amount of time, hence cost, the paperwork etc would require. It ignored efficiencies that could be introduced, or slack time taken up and was another Project Fear ruse.

As I said, OB has laid it out logically and that has not yet been refuted.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

And the EU have said Max_Fac is not a likely option...

http://www.businessinsider.com/phili...esa-may-2018-5

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

You know, the US division that loaned money to Trump when no US bank would...

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

That raises another point. The EU is busy tearing itself apart or something approaching that over the immigration question. Their fudge will likely unravel as true colours are shown.

Main thing that’s wrong with the EU is German hegemony made possible by their engineering of the Euro’s value through allowing Greece, Portugal and Italy in despite their true financial situation.

The other thing that’s hopelessly wrong is the French veto on CAP reform. There’s more but I can’t be bothered to expand the list.

So far the remainers in this thread have kept clear of addressing these faults.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Well, they will get the final say (along with their parliaments) so you'll get a chance to test that theory...if it even gets that far?

If they don't get as far, May will never go for a hard Brexit - ever. She just threatens as much from time to time to fill her daily bout / dose of attention seeking / robotic "appease my hardliners" phase...then the remain folks will start pulling the strings and off she goes to placate them and round her phase of "giving" goes.

Barnier is principally someone who believes that a coherent single market with intelligent rules that apply everywhere - going in the EU intentionally had him set as the chief negotiator to send the message to the UK that "you're either going to get no access, or accept all rules for them".

If they don't get the 40 Billion, they will register a default given our failure to pay existing obligations that we owe - ministers have even (begrudgingly) agreed that we owe that money, will pay it and that is that. We also would forfeit rebates (obviously) so the amount we would save in the 40 billion in the short run for the long term damage is preposterous. We will be paying the 40 billion, no matter what.

I would make it clear that the UK would either comply with the 4 principles of the EU or get no access to the SM. I would make it very clear that you were either a part of the CU, or not. I would make it clear that you either get friction less trade, or you get to make your own trade deals (you make the call). I would also state that if you do not keep the Irish border open then you get nothing. That breaks the back of the union...hmm I could swear that he has already done all that.

Smart man. I would make it clear to the UK that they are not going to have their cake and eat it.

He seems to have done all that...he is a smart guy. Now, heels. He is a good looking guy so if he was to go head to head with me, on heels - I might just lose. I think he is even slightly taller than me...would he look good in heels? I don't know, but he is clearly a good looking guy.

Ummm...what??? Nobody expected her to lose? From day 1, that is all I expected...has history not taught you that once a nation nationalizes it has to socialize? When once did a nation ever turn to conservatism once it nationalized anything (rail / money / power and utilities...anything?) The entire principle of nationalism is the total antithesis of conservatism ; conservatism is free market based...you know, the lack of borders, tariffs, borders etc - the very thing that the EU aspires towards. What made you think that nationalists who voted against immigrants would ever do anything but vote for union based parties like the LP? Everyone said that if it wasnn't for Corbyn then Labor would have won...garbage. It was because he is such a socialist that the natural UKIP voters all went back home to their beloved Labor party as there was no need for UKIP anymore.

Nationalism has no basis in conservatism. The two should never ever be conflated.

That is only among the cabinet ; at least if nothing else there was not group think in that aspect - the state yet will allow freedom of thought...though not movement.

However though, once they are done bickering the EU will get the final say, and no means no when they reject.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

So you deliberately create friction out of spite? That's not going to work for the EU, Chloé.

And the UK leaving the bureaucratic and unwieldy EU makes perfect sense, by the way. The real danger for us is staying in, so the sooner we escape, the better.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I wouldn't say "out of spite" but no way does the UK get some preferential deal / some special perk to break the 4 principles on my watch if I was chief negotiator, ever. What on Earth makes you think that the UK should get friction less trade without being a member of the CU?

You don't get the same perks of the CU, without being a member of it. Simple as that.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Lol, it was recent analysis by HMRC. Project Fear was 2016 not 2018!

---------- Post added at 01:01 ---------- Previous post was at 00:57 ----------

Front page of The Times says we'll most likely go for a Norwegian style deal unless Theresa May is overthrown by hard-line Brexiters. Unicorn-style deals have been ruled out by the EU. Fingers crossed she'll stay in power if this is accurate.;)

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Ummm...because the government has already admitted that the bill will be paid irregardless of a future trade deal.

We owe it, and we will pay it:

https://news.sky.com/story/brexit-mi...antee-11383067

It is not a quid pro quo (unless everyone takes a Trumpian approach / there really is an art of some deal) and we are not quite yet a banana Republic so unilaterally, we did the correct thing in agreeing to pay what we already are obligated to do.

Three separate times she was asked this.

Trade deal or no trade deal, we will be paying this bill. As we owe it.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Okay so I have read you writing this all over the site and I have to ask what makes you say this? You keep saying "we're going to get a deal / max fac is the way to go, and so on". Repetitively. In maybe 10 posts in the last couple days, plenty in this thread etc...so umm what makes you so sure?

An hour or so ago, Barnier said no to a bespoke deal:

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/98...Theresa-May-UK

May is going with the idea of part SM access...before Barnier can look at it, Leo put the kibosh on it:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...s-says-barnier

Even from the UK side, Max Fac is a no go for the EU:

http://uk.businessinsider.com/philip...esa-may-2018-5

The manufacturers association says that it is a no go:

http://www.cityam.com/286524/manufac...s-proposal-non

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-b...KCN1IT25I?il=0

Why and where are you coming up with all this???

Max Fac is not going to happen, there is no guarantee of any deal and if there is one to be had, it looks likely to be entirely on the EU's terms. Because by the hour they seem to be rejecting every single pie in the sky idea from May and co.

So what makes you so sure?

Which again just shows how weak May is...and she passively sent Truss out, to smack Gove and couldn't do the most basic thing for herself, like sack him. I figure she thinks that she still owes him for beating Boris out of the race, so she could look like the national and international humiliation that she is. Forget Boris but even for her, with friends like Gove...

See even though the leave team won a referendum, the country is not a dictatorship just yet. There is bound to be the odd bit of, you know...dissent.

That bring said, yet again it is a sign of May's pure worthlessness - CR is a staple of any cabinet yet in this instance, cabinet members are behaving so badly that people who dislike May wish that they could be one, just to humiliate her all the more.

Why do you keep saying that those are the only two options? Because you said so?

As for the 80 billion surplus I would honestly just be willing to take the hit if I were on the EU side - Britain will obviously suffer more in the long run and come begging back to the EU, which will then offer Britain the chance to return, on much more favorable terms to the EU. Play the long game.

Yeah, I agree on that front. In the mean time we have to go through the charade of leaving, first - along with all other kinds of nonsense.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

A bit different from the hoped landslide she was told was coming her way..

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

PM must deliver hard Brexit or face revolt, says Rees-Mogg

https://news.sky.com/story/pm-must-d...-mogg-11423428

it all right for the normal people to suffer as you be ok as your super rich eh Jacob

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

And this is the man full of hypocrisy as he wants a hard Brexit and then sets up investment funds abroad so he himself can avoid the financial consequences of a hard Brexit..

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

exactly Den he saying screw normal people I gonna make money out of it

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

...And yet, the EU want to continue to export to us. They export €80bn more goods to us than we do to them. They are going to have to give ground somehow or face us as new, stiff competitors with low tax rates. Plus, their exporters will face making their staff redundant with reduced profits for them. That's why TM has decided to distribute the proposed White Paper to all EU countries, translated into their own languges.

Barnier & co will start to find themselves under great pressure to back down in the face of this.

---------- Post added at 07:42 ---------- Previous post was at 07:40 ----------

True, but my point still stands.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I think we'll get a deal, out of interest though what will we be selling the day after we leave that we don't currently flog that make these trade deals so attractive

We'll get a better deal than Norway or else we might as well not bother with a deal at all

---------- Post added at 08:04 ---------- Previous post was at 08:03 ----------

How dare he attempt to call Mrs May out on promises made when he himself was caught telling blatant lies on the telly, no matter how rich he is the man has no honour or class

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

If she does get offered a better deal then the EU will have to offer it to many other countries it has signed trade deals with like Canada as those deals have such a clause in it.
The only way round I could see would be if the UK offered to pay a substantial access fee. This could be offered to the other countries too but they would likely decline it. But I doubt it would go down well with Rees-Mogg etc.

---------- Post added at 08:41 ---------- Previous post was at 08:34 ----------

Only people keen on this idea are those who have everything and those who have nothing. The average hardworking family gets to pay for it all. :td:

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

In which case it would probably be better to trade under WTO rules.

It's not Free trade if we're paying a "substantial access fee".

The new Customs system will, for the most part, be ready by January 2019 should we leave with a no deal.

https://www.nao.org.uk/wp-content/up...ess-update.pdf

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Sir Alan Duncan MP
‏
Verified account

@AlanDuncanMP
Follow
Follow @AlanDuncanMP

Sir Alan Duncan MP Retweeted Simon Hoare MP
Rees-Mogg’s insolence @Telegraph in lecturing & threatening PM is just too much. Risks debasing govt, party, country & himself. PM must be given maximum latitude & backing. The ideological right are a minority despite their noise & should pipe down. #totalsupportforMay&UK

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

and this is different to any politician over the last century in what way?

They all screw the commoner to enrich their own lives, look upon it as a 'legal' form of insider trading :D

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

But us the commoners were told that there would be a severe crackdown on "insider trading" .;)

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Posts like this are not helpful, in this new thread, this is being provocative and just contributes to cause a further “toxic them vs. Us” discussion.

---------- Post added at 13:08 ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 ----------

It's official, though I never had any doubt, our former coward of a PM, "Colluded" with U.S President Obama in 2016, to stop Brexit by blackmail with the back of Queue for trade threat....

What's the Russian word for "Hypocrites". ?

Лицемеры !!! :rolleyes:

https://news.sky.com/story/cameron-p...rning-11423669

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

delete post please was not intended to be provocative at all sorry if it seemed that way

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Done and thank you.

I am not being picky - I really want us to all try to move away from them and us in this thread.

I am really tired of the division. We need to try to stop being so divided on both sides.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

no worries Mick and I don't want to be provocative no intent too be at all we all hope the government can stop fighting and agree and get a deal as no deal will be very bad indeed

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I have yet to be convinced that we will be worse off post Brexit, Andrew. If we get to improve our ability to trade, we will be better off.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

OB the government wanted to deny the studies existed because it shows no matter what deal we worse off business saying we will be worse off it a question of how worse off we be

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Only a eternal optimist believes we won't be worse off as one does not have to be Einstein to work out that there will be financial pain.

https://uk.webfg.com/news/news-and-a...--3103564.html

http://uk.businessinsider.com/leaked...rse-off-2018-1

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I know, Dave, but do you really believe all these forecasts? They have been wrong almost every time because they are based on assumptions. They may give too much or too little weight to those assumptions, and it may well be that other factors kick in which are bigger factors than those assumptions. Or the assumptions might just be wrong.

Just ask yourself how more trade can make us poorer. You have to go along with that negative attitude so many people have to believe that trade will suffer to the degree that this will be the disaster they point to. The EU will still want to export to us, won't they? Look at the size of that trade surplus!

The impact any tariffs likely to be applied to our exports to the EU would be fairly marginal, and easily made up for by our ability to forge new trade deals. And if, as speculated by some, we decide to apply no tariffs, that will reduce the price of goods coming in (competing with EU goods) and reduce EU exports to us (thereby damaging the EU).

This is not a one way street when we look at the implications of Brexit. A no deal will hurt both sides, but we will come out of it better thanks to all our new trading partners.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

we see what next weekend brings if government can agree anything my fear they cant but we know more by then

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I have no doubt they will agree. Remember, this is a show.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The Guardian is reporting that the latest reworking of Mrs May's "deal" proposal is a no-go already:

UK's latest Brexit proposal is unrealistic, say EU officials

It is unclear if this draft read by the EU is close to the final form but it does give some idea of what the EU is likely to do.

In the same way that May is shackled by the Hard Brexit supporters in her Cabinet, the EU cannot agree to something that will compromise it's integrity. It seems it will be prepared to accept financial losses to stop the UK having its "cake" ..

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Old Boy believes that his forecasts are more accurate than anyone else's. That's his right.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Despite all the proof laid before him..;)

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

That's what I already envisaged, paying, Norway pay a fortune as part of their deal any way

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

looking like a hard no deal Brexit every minute and fall of cliff edge disaster for uk :(:(

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

They reject it as fast as the UK seems to consider it - it is like Davis usually goes through exercises of mental contortion just to tell May to present it to the EU in some huge act of humiliation from the EU when they say no - this gets funnier every single time.

It is not so much that she is a masochist as much as it is that the rest if the cabinet seem to love making an example of her.

Pretty much - it has turned from a "cake and eat it" pipe dream from the leave team, to a "no cake for you" from the EU, Seinfeld style.

They will write history books about this, and for the first time in history, it belongs in the comic book section. (When involving a head of state in the Western World).

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

Hopefully they did a cost-benefit analysis, unlike BoJo and chums.

---------- Post added at 16:42 ---------- Previous post was at 16:41 ----------

You can take a horse to water, Denphone. ;)

---------- Post added at 16:43 ---------- Previous post was at 16:42 ----------

Would a certain US President not be on the same book shelf too?

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

I think that his fits much more in the mold of the traditions of "circus performers" / carnival barkers. But even as much as a screw up as he is, he is beginning to get his act together, bit by bit.

The other thing is, the nations are never going to be comparable - ever. One is the most powerful in the world. The UK is just clinging on to the coat tails of an empirical time that is long dead.

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

The water has been poisoned. You drink it if you want to....

Re: Brexit Discussion (New thread-Follow First Post Rules!)
 

That is exactly what will happen though. We will get poorer. Why? Not because we have more trade but because we will have friction and tariffs in the trade that we used to have that was open and free and because the rest already will have the trade with the bloc that used to involve us, less us after our departure.

After March 2019 we're telling the rest of the world: "we're here, come get us". We are not putting an "open for business" sign up, we are putting a "open for pillaging" sign up and that we are here for the spoils.

They will comfortably be able to take an 80 billion a year hit...easily. More fool us if we think that they will care about that. They'll make it up in other ways (at our expense) like fees / currency charges / service changes and so on.

We are never ever going to win this battle, ever.

If we decide to levy no tariffs to nations outside the EU, it would be a great thing...you know why?

Because it will put all the dead wood who all voted to leave, out of business. What is the point in bitching about EU member states undercutting us, only to have the rest of the world outside Europe, come eat our lunch???

I have to keep asking...what new trade deals?? The US is a 20 trillion dollar economy, and in the midst of the 2020 Presidential campaign there will be zero appetite for a trade deal.

Trump will wish to fleece the UK but no way does it get through the Senate, which it needs to.

Britain will not come out of this better off - the US is going to rip the UK into pieces, which it still cannot while the UK is still a part of the EU. (The largest trading bloc in the world).

Trump managed to get past Rexit eventually this year and his new negotiator / diplomat in chief is being outdone by Kim Jong Un. Brexit would be a step too far - because if he were to be outdone by this group in the cabinet then he should resign as President. It is one thing to be outdone by North Korea but by May? The Japanese would tell him to go out honorably at that point.

If Trump wins re-elect / gets through past 2021 or so and there is a transition period short enough then I suppose the UK could present itself (in the mating sense) to the US and allow Cornyn / Pence etc to get even more out of Britain before 2024 - I guess that everyone will learn the hard way in the end.

Trump is chomping at the bit here, so it Manuchin / Kudlow / Ross etc. They are just from within the cabinet. Cornyn and co want a go in the Senate...God knows what the House make all of this, too.

Do you really want to save your pride only to be cannibalized by a nation with almost 10 times the economy???