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Osem 22-09-2017 11:19

Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

TfL has today informed Uber that it will not be issued with a private hire operator licence.
https://order-order.com/2017/09/22/b...cence-revoked/

Lots of people have effectively just been made redundant, a good mate of mine amongst them. I expect a lengthy and very costly court case to follow and maybe Mayor Khan is banking on this to get him off the hook for the decision.

OLD BOY 22-09-2017 11:28

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35917454)
https://order-order.com/2017/09/22/b...cence-revoked/

Lots of people have effectively just been made redundant, a good mate of mine amongst them. I expect a lengthy and very costly court case to follow and maybe Mayor Khan is banking on this to get him off the hook for the decision.

This is an example why Labour is considered to be bad for business and for our economy.

Imagine this lot conducting our Brexit negotiations or 'managing' the economy after our divorce from the EU!

All that was required was to grant Uber a licence and attach the necessary conditions to it. If they fail to abide by the conditions, they should be fined. But to simply ban the company from operating was excessive.

Damien 22-09-2017 12:16

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Massive decision. It always seemed as if Uber were edging close to this but I never would have thought it could happen. In two minds, On one hand I don't think banning them is helpful on the other I also don't think massive companies should throw their weight around to get past regulations.

Osem 22-09-2017 12:19

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917459)
Massive decision. It always seemed as if Uber were edging close to this but I never would have thought it could happen.

Anyone who lives in London knows that TFL is capable of almost anything. A legal challenge will follow and if TFL lose they'll have to live with it. The public will pay for it whatever the outcome and a lot of them feel TFL isn't fit for purpose.

Damien 22-09-2017 12:20

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35917460)
Anyone who lives in London knows that TFL is capable of almost anything. A legal challenge will follow and if TFL lose they'll have to live with it. The public will pay for it whatever the outcome.

I can also see Uber deciding to change some of their policies to get the licence too. Some of TFL's concerns are not unwarranted.

Osem 22-09-2017 12:34

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
I bet fares are on the way up already...

Damien 22-09-2017 13:08

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
It will be a while before Uber actually stop operating, I think a compromise will be found personally. I mean Uber's prices would have been risen eventually - their business model is to operate at a loss to undercut the competition (who aren't backed by venture capital) until the competition is gone at which point they would have a stranglehold.

I do use Uber, find them useful and so cheap, but I do feel conflicted about the way they operate as a business.

I mean there is a touch of arrogance from them about this. The conditions aren't unfair. Have your drivers pass CRB checks, be better and faster in reporting serious allegations in your vehicles and don't use the special software they have to avoid inspectors (they literally have this). Meet those conditions, applied to all other drivers that require a taxi licence, and they can operate.

I should also say that the best thing about Uber is a sense of safety when you're in a foreign city. You know you won't get screwed.

Maggy 22-09-2017 13:55

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917459)
Massive decision. It always seemed as if Uber were edging close to this but I never would have thought it could happen. In two minds, On one hand I don't think banning them is helpful on the other I also don't think massive companies should throw their weight around to get past regulations.

:tu:

Osem 22-09-2017 14:18

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
If the laws are clear enough they can't get around any regulations and if the laws aren't clear enough that's where the courts come in. It may well turn out that TFL is breaking the rules - the appeal result will tell us which...

Damien 22-09-2017 14:23

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35917485)
If the laws are clear enough they can't get around any regulations and if the laws aren't clear enough that's where the courts come in. It may well turn out that TFL is breaking the rules - the appeal result will tell us which...

We'll see of course but TFL gets to issue the licences and if they have provisions to qualify then they're probably well within their rights to deny it. I suspect any appeal from Uber would attempt to show they did meet those terms rather than the authority of TFL to issue them.

I would say that the initial reading of the case suggest the rules are pretty clear and Uber didn't follow them. Unless there is something we're missing (i.e Uber did have their riders CRB checked etc) then it seems simple enough. I think this case will become a proxy for people's existing politics rather than the actual merits of this case.

Osem 22-09-2017 14:31

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917488)
We'll see of course but TFL gets to issue the licences and if they have provisions to qualify then they're probably well within their rights to deny it. I suspect any appeal from Uber would attempt to show they did meet those terms rather than the authority of TFL to issue them.

I would say that the initial reading of the case suggest the rules are pretty clear and Uber didn't follow them. Unless there is something we're missing (i.e Uber did have their riders CRB checked etc) then it seems simple enough. I think this case will become a proxy for people's existing politics rather than the actual merits of this case.

If they were crystal clear and Uber just didn't follow them then that'd be pretty stupid surely. IMHO it's more likely to be down to different view about what their responsibilities are and the desire to clarify the applicable law.

Damien 22-09-2017 14:44

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35917490)
If they were crystal clear and Uber just didn't follow them then that'd be pretty stupid surely. IMHO it's more likely to be down to different view about what their responsibilities are and the desire to clarify the applicable law.

Yup although it's rather consistent in how they've operated elsewhere...

Taf 22-09-2017 14:45

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
My daughter called a uber cab just once, and never again. The driver spoke no English, got her to write down her destination despite it being on the booking app, drove on the wrong side of a deserted dual carriageway, and tried to drop her off half a mile from her destination gesticulating and muttering in his own language.

Osem 22-09-2017 14:48

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917492)
Yup although it's rather consistent in how they've operated elsewhere...

Yes because there's was an entirely new concept so the law needed clarifying.

Damien 22-09-2017 15:10

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35917494)
Yes because there's was an entirely new concept so the law needed clarifying.

Uber did bring a lot of convenience but I think at it's core it's a taxi service. You can call it via an app rather than a phone call but the fundamental nature of the service the same as Addison Lee or any other taxi service that you don't flag down (which is reserved for the black cabs).

I don't see what is different enough about their service that means they think they do not need criminal record checks for a licence for example. I think it's Uber trying to operate without having to worry about regulations in local markets which would impede their ability to expand aggressively. If they had to abide by London's rules then they have no argument not to do so in Paris, or Budapest, or Oslo. That would be a annoyance to a company who are trying to expand massively and quickly. It's a trend you see in a lot of technology start-ups out of Silicon Valley - a contempt for the laws and regulations of external markets.

They want to hover above local authorities and just be 'a service'. I get the appeal because it's frustrating when we don't get something America has because of the burden of those companies entering a new market but at the same time asking for drivers to have these checks and for crimes to be reported is not unreasonable.

I am not sure how the relation between a law and regulation works. However it seems TFL have a set of conditions applied to a taxi licence which includes the proper reporting of crimes, criminal record checks and whatever that business with the health certificate is. I find it entirely believable Uber have tried to get around that. Although the fact they have software to avoid government inspections makes me think they know what they're doing.


If TFL have done something wrong here I suspect it's that they're lying about Uber not complying to appease black cabs. Not in imposing this conditions.

Mythica 22-09-2017 15:31

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917471)
It will be a while before Uber actually stop operating, I think a compromise will be found personally. I mean Uber's prices would have been risen eventually - their business model is to operate at a loss to undercut the competition (who aren't backed by venture capital) until the competition is gone at which point they would have a stranglehold.

I do use Uber, find them useful and so cheap, but I do feel conflicted about the way they operate as a business.

I mean there is a touch of arrogance from them about this. The conditions aren't unfair. Have your drivers pass CRB checks, be better and faster in reporting serious allegations in your vehicles and don't use the special software they have to avoid inspectors (they literally have this). Meet those conditions, applied to all other drivers that require a taxi licence, and they can operate.

I should also say that the best thing about Uber is a sense of safety when you're in a foreign city. You know you won't get screwed.

I'm not really up to date on Uber, but I'm not sure why you get a sense of safety from Uber if they aren't CRB checked. How is it any safer than a normal taxi?

Damien 22-09-2017 15:37

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35917497)
I'm not really up to date on Uber, but I'm not sure why you get a sense of safety from Uber if they aren't CRB checked. How is it any safer than a normal taxi?

Because you're tracked. A driver can't just ride off with you (more of a concern for women than myself).

But for me it's that other countries do not have as good regulation on their drivers as London. A lot of places have cab drivers that might try and rip you off because there is a lack of standardised prices or lack of enforcement.

I went to Mexico City and you're recommended to only get taxis known by the hotel and let them call it for you. They also tend to jot down the registration number when you get in. This is not uncommon outside of the US or Europe (and even then some cities are worse than others).

Uber doesn't have these problems. They, the company, decide the price and know the drivers. You have a US-based company to follow up any issues you have and a map of the route they took you.

Mythica 22-09-2017 15:58

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917498)
Because you're tracked. A driver can't just ride off with you (more of a concern for women than myself).

But for me it's that other countries do not have as good regulation on their drivers as London. A lot of places have cab drivers that might try and rip you off because there is a lack of standardised prices or lack of enforcement.

I went to Mexico City and you're recommended to only get taxis known by the hotel and let them call it for you. They also tend to jot down the registration number when you get in. This is not uncommon outside of the US or Europe (and even then some cities are worse than others).

Uber doesn't have these problems. They, the company, decide the price and know the drivers. You have a US-based company to follow up any issues you have and a map of the route they took you.

Are Ubers tracked worldwide? Aren't most taxis these days too?

Damien 22-09-2017 16:18

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mythica (Post 35917502)
Are Ubers tracked worldwide? Aren't most taxis these days too?

Uber works via an app which tracks each trip in it's entirety to work out what to charge and where their drivers are in order for the next pick-up.

Osem 22-09-2017 17:50

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917496)
Uber did bring a lot of convenience but I think at it's core it's a taxi service. You can call it via an app rather than a phone call but the fundamental nature of the service the same as Addison Lee or any other taxi service that you don't flag down (which is reserved for the black cabs).

I don't see what is different enough about their service that means they think they do not need criminal record checks for a licence for example. I think it's Uber trying to operate without having to worry about regulations in local markets which would impede their ability to expand aggressively. If they had to abide by London's rules then they have no argument not to do so in Paris, or Budapest, or Oslo. That would be a annoyance to a company who are trying to expand massively and quickly. It's a trend you see in a lot of technology start-ups out of Silicon Valley - a contempt for the laws and regulations of external markets.

They want to hover above local authorities and just be 'a service'. I get the appeal because it's frustrating when we don't get something America has because of the burden of those companies entering a new market but at the same time asking for drivers to have these checks and for crimes to be reported is not unreasonable.

I am not sure how the relation between a law and regulation works. However it seems TFL have a set of conditions applied to a taxi licence which includes the proper reporting of crimes, criminal record checks and whatever that business with the health certificate is. I find it entirely believable Uber have tried to get around that. Although the fact they have software to avoid government inspections makes me think they know what they're doing.

If TFL have done something wrong here I suspect it's that they're lying about Uber not complying to appease black cabs. Not in imposing this conditions.

What's different enough or not is clearly for the courts to decide and as with all legal argument which can't be otherwise resolved, both sides believe they have a case. Testing rules/regulations is normal practice in business where there's some doubt what applies and what doesn't. I recall the early days of the Data Protection Act when I raised a succession of queries as to whether or not my business needed to be registered which they could not answer categorically. Their suggestion was to be a test case... It's the same with complex tax law.

In this case the judges concerned will be the ones whose words matter and thereafter the rules will be clearer and obviously that needs to happen.

pip08456 22-09-2017 19:16

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917503)
Uber works via an app which tracks each trip in it's entirety to work out what to charge and where their drivers are in order for the next pick-up.

Nothing different to the majority private hire companies in the UK.

Damien 22-09-2017 19:32

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35917515)
Nothing different to the majority private hire companies in the UK.

Fair enough but this isn't the case in many cities, hence why I use Uber in them.

RichardCoulter 23-09-2017 04:09

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Even if they have no licence in London, they can get round it by using taxis licensed elsewhere.

Maggy 23-09-2017 09:16

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
I'd rather use a genuine London cabbie who has been CRB'd,is insured, knows how to get around London and I can flag down safely knowing I won't get ripped off. Let's hope I continue to have that choice.

Osem 23-09-2017 11:47

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35917543)
I'd rather use a genuine London cabbie who has been CRB'd,is insured, knows how to get around London and I can flag down safely knowing I won't get ripped off. Let's hope I continue to have that choice.

That's everyone's choice to make but not everyone can afford it which is why Uber and mini-cabs became so popular. Can't recall the last time we used a black cab for anything, just too expensive.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41369617

Quote:

Hundreds of thousands of people have signed a petition calling for Transport for London to reverse its decision not to renew Uber's licence.
On Friday, the regulator said Uber was not "fit and proper" to hold a London private hire operator licence on the grounds of "public safety and security implications".
More than 400,000 names have since been added to Uber's petition on Change.org.
The ride-hailing app firm says it will appeal against TfL's decision.
The petition, started by Uber London, says: "If this decision stands, it will put more than 40,000 licensed drivers out of work and deprive millions of Londoners of a convenient and affordable form of transport."

Stephen 23-09-2017 11:53

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
I've used them a few times in Glasgow and the drivers are always super friendly and know where they are going. however a friend got ripped off once as the driver never stopped the meter and she ended up getting charged £300 as he was driving around for hours.

however the two local private hire cab companies I use most in glasgow now also have an app so you can call and track your taxi. So no real need for Uber here.

Osem 23-09-2017 12:34

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 35917561)
I've used them a few times in Glasgow and the drivers are always super friendly and know where they are going. however a friend got ripped off once as the driver never stopped the meter and she ended up getting charged £300 as he was driving around for hours.

however the two local private hire cab companies I use most in glasgow now also have an app so you can call and track your taxi. So no real need for Uber here.

If there's not a significant price difference, I think a lot of people just use the easiest, most visible, high profile method of ordering whether it's cabs or takeaways. Why on earth would anyone order food from their local Chinese, Indian or whatever via one of the food delivery apps for example when they could just call them direct? Laziness? All that happens is that the supplier has to provide a cut of his profit to the intermediary. It's clearly not about price, it's about convenience but even so there's very little added convenience for anyone who isn't in the slightest bit organised.

Maggy 24-09-2017 08:07

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
I don't use apps to order food. I ring the venue direct or I walk there.

Osem 24-09-2017 15:48

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35917675)
I don't use apps to order food. I ring the venue direct or I walk there.

Same here. The exercise helps to offset the calories... ;)

richard s 24-09-2017 15:52

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Some elderly folks do not have smart phones so Uber would not help them.

Osem 24-09-2017 15:56

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by richard s (Post 35917749)
Some elderly folks do not have smart phones so Uber would not help them.

Lots of elderly folks have children/grandchildren who do. ;)

Chris 24-09-2017 20:08

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RichardCoulter (Post 35917535)
Even if they have no licence in London, they can get round it by using taxis licensed elsewhere.

This is hardly a fix for their problem - they would need a good proportion of their London drivers to seek and obtain a licence from another English or Welsh local authority. If TFL look like theyíre going to be totally unyielding then in time it might go this way, but on the other hand thereís always the chance other local authorities might sit up and take notice and start requiring the same standards as TFL in order to put a stop to it.

Damien 24-09-2017 20:39

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35917780)
This is hardly a fix for their problem - they would need a good proportion of their London drivers to seek and obtain a licence from another English or Welsh local authority. If TFL look like they’re going to be totally unyielding then in time it might go this way, but on the other hand there’s always the chance other local authorities might sit up and take notice and start requiring the same standards as TFL in order to put a stop to it.

Indeed it's not uncommon for other licensing authorities to require drivers are CRB checked.

I seriously think this will blow over with Uber making what really are the minor concessions required and winning back their licence.

RichardCoulter 24-09-2017 20:43

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35917780)
This is hardly a fix for their problem - they would need a good proportion of their London drivers to seek and obtain a licence from another English or Welsh local authority. If TFL look like they’re going to be totally unyielding then in time it might go this way, but on the other hand there’s always the chance other local authorities might sit up and take notice and start requiring the same standards as TFL in order to put a stop to it.

I wonder if drivers are able to obtain dual licenses to cover themselves either way?

Even if they can, as you say, if the other authorities take a similar stance this will be pointless.

I've never used Uber myself, but I do like the idea of a fixed price to prevent drivers ripping people off and being able to downvote drivers who are rude, drive badly, smell, are late etc.

Damien 25-09-2017 16:30

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Looks like a resolution could be quite quick: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41384499

Osem 25-09-2017 16:33

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 35917923)
Looks like a resolution could be quite quick: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-41384499

Our good friends the black cabbies will be chuffed. :rolleyes:

Julian 25-09-2017 19:18

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
khant forced to u-turn.

Love it. :D

pip08456 25-09-2017 19:44

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian (Post 35917950)
khant forced to u-turn.

Love it. :D

Where's the u-turn? He certainly hasn't made one.

Uber have on the other hand done so possibly as TFL have had discussion with a rival operator

Osem 25-09-2017 20:36

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Uber have apologised for any mistakes they have made. I don't recall Khan ever apologising for much* but there's still time... :D

* expenses claims aside

Damien 25-09-2017 22:24

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Uber can apologise but I guess it's either if they make concessions to TFL or win a legal challenge.

denphone 10-11-2017 12:01

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Uber loses appeal in UK employment rights case.

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...rights-workers

Damien 21-11-2017 22:23

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Might not be directly related but hardly the PR Uber wanted whilst they battle to stay in London: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...-people-s-data

Quote:

Hackers stole the personal data of 57 million customers and drivers from Uber Technologies Inc., a massive breach that the company concealed for more than a year. This week, the ride-hailing company ousted Joe Sullivan, chief security officer, and one of his deputies for their roles in keeping the hack under wraps.

Damien 13-12-2017 08:54

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
York joins Sheffield and London in revoking, or refusing to issue, a licence to Uber.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-42328380

Quote:

Uber has been banned in a third UK city after councillors in York rejected the firm's bid to renew its operating licence.

Taxi drivers had complained of the city being "overwhelmed" with drivers using the ride-hailing app, which has already been banned in London and Sheffield.

Concerns about a huge data breach also contributed to the decision, the City of York Council said.

TheDaddy 20-12-2017 08:44

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
I think they might be screwed...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42423627

Damien 20-12-2017 08:54

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35929576)
I think they might be screwed...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42423627

It's obviously a transport service. I understand the whole idea of simply 'connecting' people as a way to avoid a lot of responsibility/hassle that comes from having them as staff but unless we find a better way to make that work it's very exploitative.

Also remember that Uber runs at a loss backed by venture capital money in order to drive out competition at which point they are the only option. So it's not as if these drivers will have other alternatives.

nomadking 20-12-2017 08:57

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Are Travel Agents aviation companies or do they merely link up the 2 parties? Same goes for loads of other companies that just link up 2 parties for a transaction.

pip08456 20-12-2017 09:13

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35929579)
Are Travel Agents aviation companies or do they merely link up the 2 parties? Same goes for loads of other companies that just link up 2 parties for a transaction.

Uber is a taxi company.

Source

nomadking 20-12-2017 09:32

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35929580)
Uber is a taxi company.

Source

So why is it supposedly different from any other booking type service? Classic case of bias in judicial rulings. The obvious contradiction with other booking type services prove that.

Damien 20-12-2017 09:41

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35929579)
Are Travel Agents aviation companies or do they merely link up the 2 parties? Same goes for loads of other companies that just link up 2 parties for a transaction.

But the aviation companies are legitimately separate entities which you can book with directly or via other agents and are not wholly dependent on one provider. They set their own prices, policies and services.

The only agency the drivers have is the choice to work for them or not.

Stephen 20-12-2017 10:32

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
You get an Uber car to drive you and drop you off. To me that makes them a cab company.

nomadking 20-12-2017 11:05

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 35929585)
You get an Uber car to drive you and drop you off. To me that makes them a cab company.

That is the name given to the service. They don't own the vehicles, interview and select the drivers, have fixed hours etc. Just as Thomas Cook don't own the hotels or actually provide the services in the hotel, but it is still referred to as a "Thomas Cook" holiday.

papa smurf 20-12-2017 11:15

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen (Post 35929585)
You get an Uber car to drive you and drop you off. To me that makes them a cab company.

Does that make dads taxi service a cab company ?;)

pip08456 20-12-2017 11:18

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 35929594)
Does that make dads taxi service a cab company ?;)

Depends if dad gets paid for it.:D

papa smurf 20-12-2017 13:10

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35929596)
Depends if dad gets paid for it.:D

funnily enough dads just got a fare to pick up son and take to tesco .

Maggy 20-12-2017 15:22

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35929592)
That is the name given to the service. They don't own the vehicles, interview and select the drivers, have fixed hours etc. Just as Thomas Cook don't own the hotels or actually provide the services in the hotel, but it is still referred to as a "Thomas Cook" holiday.

And any service industry should have to stick to the agreed rules that the rest of that service industry have set up to protect both users and workers.

Stephen 20-12-2017 16:15

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 35929592)
That is the name given to the service. They don't own the vehicles, interview and select the drivers, have fixed hours etc. Just as Thomas Cook don't own the hotels or actually provide the services in the hotel, but it is still referred to as a "Thomas Cook" holiday.

Do private hire companies own their cars? No for the most part it is the drivers car.

I can also book my local private hire companies using an app now as well and track the car on a map. much the same as Uber.

They are all cab or private hire taxi companies. Some drivers will actually work for both.

TheDaddy 19-02-2021 12:17

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 35929576)
I think they might be screwed...

I think their plan for domination might have to be rewritten and the whole gig economy might just be at an end to following the supreme court decision today

pip08456 19-02-2021 12:49

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36071250)
I think their plan for domination might have to be rewritten and the whole gig economy might just be at an end to following the supreme court decision today

Very informative.

nomadking 19-02-2021 13:03

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Uber set the fare which meant that they dictated how much drivers could earn
So how is that different to where councils set local rates and rules? Or other examples of buyer-supplier relationships.:confused:

Quote:

Looking at these and other factors, the court determined that drivers were in a position of subordination to Uber where the only way they could increase their earnings would be to work longer hours.
Isn't that how self-employment works.:confused:

Chris 19-02-2021 13:22

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36071254)
So how is that different to where councils set local rates and rules? Or other examples of buyer-supplier relationships.:confused:


Isn't that how self-employment works.:confused:

Dude ... just accept youíre wrong. The Supreme Court is the last word on what the law means. It has looked at how Uber operates and says British law means Uber is the driversí employer. You can repeat your opinion until youíre blue in the face but thatís all it is - an opinion. And now itís an opinion without any basis in fact, because the Supreme Court has made findings of fact.

The only way for Uber to *not* be their driversí employer in the UK is for Parliament to change the law.

papa smurf 19-02-2021 13:33

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36071255)
Dude ... just accept youíre wrong. The Supreme Court is the last word on what the law means. It has looked at how Uber operates and says British law means Uber is the driversí employer. You can repeat your opinion until youíre blue in the face but thatís all it is - an opinion. And now itís an opinion without any basis in fact, because the Supreme Court has made findings of fact.

The only way for Uber to *not* be their driversí employer in the UK is for Parliament to change the law.



They could fold the company then no one is employed, then re-employ under new contracts that are more favourable to uber ,i would imagine there is a way around this without breaking the court ruling.

nomadking 19-02-2021 13:39

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36071255)
Dude ... just accept you’re wrong. The Supreme Court is the last word on what the law means. It has looked at how Uber operates and says British law means Uber is the drivers’ employer. You can repeat your opinion until you’re blue in the face but that’s all it is - an opinion. And now it’s an opinion without any basis in fact, because the Supreme Court has made findings of fact.

The only way for Uber to *not* be their drivers’ employer in the UK is for Parliament to change the law.

1) I merely stated undeniable facts. You can't argue for a case X using reasons A, B, etc when those same reasons also apply elsewhere. I can well imagine that is a basic legal principle.
2) What "law" created them as employees in the first place. There wasn't one.

No doubt the drivers will be whining about what is to come. They won't able to work anywhere else at the time. They will have to be available throughout those fixed hours, not just when they feel like it or are not doing other work.

Hugh 19-02-2021 14:04

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36071257)
[/B]

They could fold the company then no one is employed, then re-employ under new contracts that are more favourable to uber ,i would imagine there is a way around this without breaking the court ruling.

the point was that Uber were saying they weren’t employed by Uber.

This gives a good explanation

https://www.londonreconnections.com/...-uber-not-app/

He’s updated it today (@garius)

https://twitter.com/garius/status/13...006006274?s=21

Quote:

This is because the repercussions for Uber of this decision potentially extend beyond actually treating their workers properly.

Because Uber has been MASSIVELY avoiding paying UK tax for years.

Uber processes payments in Holland. Lots of tech firms do this to dodge UK and other countries' tax.

When you book an Uber, you are paying their Dutch subsidiary, but being driven around by one of their UK ones.

Beyond this (remember I mentioned tax) they have also not been paying VAT. That's one reason they get to undercut the prices of everyone else.

They do this by claiming that EVERY Uber driver is a tiny contracting cab firm. Who all then magically fall under the VAT threshold.

That's why this ruling has potentially larger repercussions. Because if they have employees, that very much reopens the debate about Uber THEMSELVES being the cab firm.

Which means they're then liable for VAT.

About £5billion of it, and counting.


---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36071259)
1) I merely stated undeniable facts. You can't argue for a case X using reasons A, B, etc when those same reasons also apply elsewhere. I can well imagine that is a basic legal principle.
2) What "law" created them as employees in the first place. There wasn't one.

No doubt the drivers will be whining about what is to come. They won't able to work anywhere else at the time. They will have to be available throughout those fixed hours, not just when they feel like it or are not doing other work.

The Supreme Court beg to differ.

TheDaddy 19-02-2021 14:15

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36071261)
the point was that Uber were saying they werenít employed by Uber.

This gives a good explanation

https://www.londonreconnections.com/...-uber-not-app/

Heís updated it today (@garius)

https://twitter.com/garius/status/13...006006274?s=21



---------- Post added at 14:04 ---------- Previous post was at 13:55 ----------

The Supreme Court beg to differ.

The massive tax avoidance amounts to over a billion quid

1andrew1 19-02-2021 14:40

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36071259)
1) I merely stated undeniable facts. You can't argue for a case X using reasons A, B, etc when those same reasons also apply elsewhere. I can well imagine that is a basic legal principle.
2) What "law" created them as employees in the first place. There wasn't one.

No doubt the drivers will be whining about what is to come. They won't able to work anywhere else at the time. They will have to be available throughout those fixed hours, not just when they feel like it or are not doing other work.

They law doesn't work around people imagining what it is. ;)

papa smurf 19-02-2021 14:44

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071267)
They law doesn't work around people imagining what it is. ;)

The police seem to think it does, but that's for a different thread.

Chris 19-02-2021 15:43

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071267)
They law doesn't work around people imagining what it is. ;)

Willy Wonka, Attorney at Law may beg to differ ...

OLD BOY 19-02-2021 19:47

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Well, the law is above us all, I guess. I will just make the observation that once again, the consumer loses.

And so do those Uber ‘employees’ who valued the flexibility that their flexible hours contracts gave them.

jfman 19-02-2021 19:50

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071301)
Well, the law is above us all, I guess. I will just make the observation that once again, the consumer loses.

And so do those Uber ‘employees’ who valued the flexibility that their flexible hours contracts gave them.

Absolute nonsense OB.

Uber weren’t innovating they were simply reducing their tax liability at the expense of employees rights. There’s no winners, there other than Uber shareholders. As long as the consumer is a British taxpayer this is a resounding victory.

I’m sure Uber can operate a flexitime system if they really want to.

OLD BOY 19-02-2021 19:53

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36071302)
Absolute nonsense OB.

Uber werenít innovating they were simply reducing their tax liability at the expense of employees rights. Thereís no winners, there other than Uber shareholders. As long as the consumer is a British taxpayer this is a resounding victory.

Iím sure Uber can operate a flexitime system if they really want to.

Try telling that to the punters when they see the consequences of this judgement.

jfman 19-02-2021 19:56

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071304)
Try telling that to the punters when they see the consequences of this judgement.

Shrug.

If you can’t afford to give employees rights and pay British taxes under capitalism your business deserves to die rather than have you there as a parasite driving down revenues for genuinely sustainable businesses and working conditions across the board.

OLD BOY 19-02-2021 23:53

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36071305)
Shrug.

I wouldnít have expected anything else from you, jfman. A complete disregard for those people who have a brain and deliberately choose to earn their living on a flexible basis.

I donít care what trade unions think. I prefer to listen to what those affected by their decisions think.

I know that is unthinkable to guys like you, who are irreversibly politically indoctrinated. So your reply is already anticipated. And by the way, I disagree. Response unnecessary. Good night.

jfman 20-02-2021 03:55

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071322)
I wouldnít have expected anything else from you, jfman. A complete disregard for those people who have a brain and deliberately choose to earn their living on a flexible basis.

I donít care what trade unions think. I prefer to listen to what those affected by their decisions think.

I know that is unthinkable to guys like you, who are irreversibly politically indoctrinated. So your reply is already anticipated. And by the way, I disagree. Response unnecessary. Good night.

A complete disregard for businesses thatís fundamental innovation is to avoid taxes that fund public services in the United Kingdom.

That shifts the tax burden onto local people in local businesses.

I have absolutely no idea what you mean by ďguys like meĒ. Taxpayers? Itís hardly indoctrination to think that those generating profits in the UK should pay tax in the UK.

If a bakery opened in my town thatís fundamental ďinnovationĒ was to not pay tax while other bakeries closed down due to not being competitive on price thatís a net loss to local people and local businesses.

Your economic ignorance, as ever, shines through Old Boy. Conned by Silicon Valley snake oil salesmen.

RichardCoulter 20-02-2021 04:54

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071322)
I wouldnít have expected anything else from you, jfman. A complete disregard for those people who have a brain and deliberately choose to earn their living on a flexible basis.

I donít care what trade unions think. I prefer to listen to what those affected by their decisions think.

I know that is unthinkable to guys like you, who are irreversibly politically indoctrinated. So your reply is already anticipated. And by the way, I disagree. Response unnecessary. Good night.

And you aren't?

Damien 20-02-2021 10:08

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Serves Uber right. There is a massive Silicon Valley arrogance that laws and taxes apply to other people and not them. They use technologies to centralise as much of the profit as possible to only a few hands whilst destroying countless other companies in their wake. They undercut everyone because they are willing to operate at a loss to dominate the market, they avoid paying tax and they exploit people.

papa smurf 20-02-2021 10:17

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36071347)
Serves Uber right. There is a massive Silicon Valley arrogance that laws and taxes apply to other people and not them. They use technologies to centralise as much of the profit as possible to only a few hands whilst destroying countless other companies in their wake. They undercut everyone because they are willing to operate at a loss to dominate the market, they avoid paying tax and they exploit people.

Do/have you used their service?

1andrew1 20-02-2021 10:26

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071322)
I wouldn’t have expected anything else from you, jfman. A complete disregard for those people who have a brain and deliberately choose to earn their living on a flexible basis.

I don’t care what trade unions think. I prefer to listen to what those affected by their decisions think.

I know that is unthinkable to guys like you, who are irreversibly politically indoctrinated. So your reply is already anticipated. And by the way, I disagree. Response unnecessary. Good night.

This isn't about trade unions, Old Boy. This was a complaint raised by the Uber taxi drivers ie what "...those affected by their decisions think."

It's not beyond Uber to have a flexible working system that complies with the new ruling. Other taxi firms do.

The decision will mean more of a level playing field for small British taxi businesses. That can't be a bad thing and I speak as a pre-lockdown 1 Uber user. Uber brought innovation to the sector with their global app but that innovation can be disentangled from unfair competition and ripping contractors off.

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36071347)
Serves Uber right. There is a massive Silicon Valley arrogance that laws and taxes apply to other people and not them. They use technologies to centralise as much of the profit as possible to only a few hands whilst destroying countless other companies in their wake. They undercut everyone because they are willing to operate at a loss to dominate the market, they avoid paying tax and they exploit people.

Just an example really of the way that the law is always a bit behind technology. It catches up in the end.

jfman 20-02-2021 10:45

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071349)
This isn't about trade unions, Old Boy. This was a complaint raised by the Uber taxi drivers ie what "...those affected by their decisions think."

It's not beyond Uber to have a flexible working system that complies with the new ruling. Other taxi firms do.

The decision will mean more of a level playing field for small British taxi businesses. That can't be a bad thing and I speak as a pre-lockdown 1 Uber user. Uber brought innovation to the sector with their global app but that innovation can be disentangled from unfair competition and ripping contractors off.

---------- Post added at 10:26 ---------- Previous post was at 10:21 ----------


Just an example really of the way that the law is always a bit behind technology. It catches up in the end.

Fundamentally OB doesn’t want a level playing field for British businesses, or agree with the principle that profits generated as a result of doing business in the UK (something a local taxi company has no option but to do) should be taxed in the UK. He’d much rather see the UK Treasury denied that revenue because it’s a step closer to his wet dream of hollowing out the role and function of the state by denying it tax revenue.

He’d much rather see the money used for better public services in the Netherlands than here, or worse siphoned offshore into a tax haven never to be seen again.

1andrew1 20-02-2021 11:00

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36071351)
Fundamentally OB doesnít want a level playing field for British businesses, or agree with the principle that profits generated as a result of doing business in the UK (something a local taxi company has no option but to do) should be taxed in the UK. Heíd much rather see the UK Treasury denied that revenue because itís a step closer to his wet dream of hollowing out the role and function of the state by denying it tax revenue.

Heíd much rather see the money used for better public services in the Netherlands than here, or worse siphoned offshore into a tax haven never to be seen again.

I'll try and persuade Old Boy. "Come on Old Boy, let's keep those taxes in the UK and not send them to the EU!"

jfman 20-02-2021 11:21

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36071353)
I'll try and persuade Old Boy. "Come on Old Boy, let's keep those taxes in the UK and not send them to the EU!"

I'm not aware of the specifics of this case but on some level it's actually a positive that we are outside the EU if we want to take on these "big tech innovators" whose only innovation is to erode employment rights and avoid taxes.

A case like this would almost certainly end up in the European courts tied to cases across Europe and have competing interests making representations.

Now we get to tell them we're Great Britain and to naff off if they want to exploit workers, shift profits to other countries and put British businesses to the sword under the guise of competition.

Pierre 20-02-2021 16:09

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jfman (Post 36071354)
I'm not aware of the specifics of this case but on some level it's actually a positive that we are outside the EU if we want to take on these "big tech innovators" whose only innovation is to erode employment rights and avoid taxes.

A case like this would almost certainly end up in the European courts tied to cases across Europe and have competing interests making representations.

Now we get to tell them we're Great Britain and to naff off if they want to exploit workers, shift profits to other countries and put British businesses to the sword under the guise of competition.

I am 100% behind taxing big tech, they need to be paying the right tax on any revenue gleamed from the U.K. and I agree that hopefully being o/s the EU may give us some tools to do that.

Paul 20-02-2021 19:20

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071304)
Try telling that to the punters when they see the consequences of this judgement.

What consequences ?

1andrew1 20-02-2021 21:22

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Some interesting insight by former student and Deliveroo rider "Oscar" on the FT website
Quote:

Their innovation is in regulatory arbitrage. For example, with Deliveroo many riders register as bicycle riders but deliver takeaways with a car. This means that they can evade paying commercial delivery insurance (very expensive), hence can undercut employed delivery drivers that work for restaurants. Deliveroo wash their hands, because their riders are "independent contractors", not employees...

Deliveroo even allows you to share your account as you're a "self employed contractor" - it is your prerogative if you wish to outsource the work... This means people with the right to work create an account, then rent this account out to someone who does not have the right to work (illegal migrants).

Damien 20-02-2021 22:07

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36071348)
Do/have you used their service?

I do but I always tip about £5 ;) Preferably in cash if i have it.

I would prefer if Uber stopped exploiting their drivers instead.

papa smurf 21-02-2021 08:45

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Damien (Post 36071465)
I do but I always tip about £5 ;) Preferably in cash if i have it.

I would prefer if Uber stopped exploiting their drivers instead.

London prices:shocked:

The last tip i gave a Taxi driver was have a bath and buy some deodorant;)

Chris 21-02-2021 09:10

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Remember £5 only gets you a half of shandy in London.

papa smurf 21-02-2021 09:47

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36071479)
Remember £5 only gets you a half of shandy in London.

My first weeks wage as an apprentice was £5.

Mr K 21-02-2021 10:01

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36071480)
My first weeks wage as an apprentice was £5.

That was good money in 1922 ;)

papa smurf 21-02-2021 10:03

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr K (Post 36071481)
That was good money in 1922 ;)

Yea but it wasn't in 1972

1andrew1 21-02-2021 10:17

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by papa smurf (Post 36071482)
Yea but it wasn't in 1972

Equivalent to £57.69 pw or £3k a year in today's money. Enough to buy a street of houses back then! :D

Paul 21-02-2021 18:07

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36071479)
Remember £5 only gets you a half of shandy in London.

Not at the moment ;)

OLD BOY 22-02-2021 14:54

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36071436)
What consequences ?

Price increases for one.

TheDaddy 22-02-2021 15:04

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071611)
Price increases for one.

Good, why should they be subsidised to put other people out of business, they want their cake and eat it and they've been getting away with it to long

jfman 22-02-2021 15:29

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Yes let's completely erode workers rights, abolish the minimum wage and make taxes optional.

Everything will be cheaper, but will we be better off???

Paul 22-02-2021 18:20

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071611)
Price increases for one.

Prices increase anyway.

OLD BOY 24-02-2021 00:01

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Now they will increase more.

Hugh 24-02-2021 00:14

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Market forces

jfman 24-02-2021 06:15

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071769)
Now they will increase more.

Small price to pay to protect British businesses from being undercut by illegal working practices of vulture capitalists from Silicon Valley.

OLD BOY 24-02-2021 11:06

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Businesses adapt all the time. If British businesses get undercut by competition, they just respond and get better. That’s progress.

Of course businesses need to work within the law. It is unfortunate that the law is an ass.

The law is continually being tested, novel ways found to get around unintended consequences, etc.

As for workers’ rights, the right to seek the flexibility that many gig workers find useful is being compromised. Both Uber and their drivers considered the drivers to be self employed. There was no need for the courts to interfere and amend the contracts that had been drawn up with joint agreement.

As I said, this is not good news for consumers either, who will now have to pay more for the same service. This will lead to fewer people using the service, which will mean less work for the newly designated ‘employees’. Lose/lose.

jfman 24-02-2021 11:33

Re: Uber licence revoked
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 36071793)
Businesses adapt all the time. If British businesses get undercut by competition, they just respond and get better. That’s progress.

That’s a race to the bottom.

Quote:

Of course businesses need to work within the law. It is unfortunate that the law is an ass.
The law is continually being tested, novel ways found to get around unintended consequences, etc.
Yes and fundamentally ways of getting round it to avoid taxes (e.g. employers NICs) by categorising employees as self-employed is and always has been illegal.

Quote:

As for workers’ rights, the right to seek the flexibility that many gig workers find useful is being compromised. Both Uber and their drivers considered the drivers to be self employed. There was no need for the courts to interfere and amend the contracts that had been drawn up with joint agreement.
People and employers don’t get to decide who are self employed for tax purposes. HMRC do.

Quote:

As I said, this is not good news for consumers either, who will now have to pay more for the same service. This will lead to fewer people using the service, which will mean less work for the newly designated ‘employees’. Lose/lose.
Absolute nonsense Old Boy. It’s great news for the consumer because the ultimate aim of Uber and the like is to eliminate competition and move towards monopoly pricing.

Businesses adapt all the time you say.

Well this time Uber can adapt to following employment law. And paying taxes in Britain just like everyone else.


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