Cable Forum - Britain outside the EU

from that link But there are problems

Supermarkets are the root cause, deals & contracts done with 'suppliers' at terms which are very close to make or break for them, meaning the wages offered by the suppliers to their workers are as low as they can get them . . recruitment problem right there.

Anyone remember a few years ago, dairy farmers saying it was cheaper for them to pour milk down the drain than sell it to supermarkets at the prices they were willing to pay?

Look around your local area, are the smaller butchers struggling? I bet they're not.

I think you're right. But there are problems. Lamb chops in the local butcher are £21.99/kg; M&S £17.99/kg; Waitrose similar to M&S at the butcher's counter, £15.99/kg pre-packaged. Price can become an issue due t the Guvmin's unbalanced assault on take-home income.

Carth

14-10-2021 10:52

Re: Britain outside the EU

. . . and the reason they're cheaper at a supermarket is?

If you were a supplier of meat products (farmer) and could get £30 for a pig at a supermarket (£1 profit), or £35 for the same pig to a local butcher (£6 profit), who would you sell to?

But the local only wants 10 pigs, so the other 1000 go to the supermarkets at the cheaper price . . . or get culled if the supermarket price drops to £28 per pig (£1 loss)

TheDaddy

14-10-2021 13:36

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36097320)

It's Article 693 of the Trade and Cooperation Agreement.
Not the Withdrawal Agreement.

So, how can the UK utilise what you've pointed out in terms of the NI Protocol?

---------- Post added at 22:20 ---------- Previous post was at 22:07 ----------

That perfidious Varadkar is at it again, forcefully telling the world that by making a trade deal with the UK other countries are treating with a nation that cannot be trusted to keep to the deal.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-58898117

Is the Tanasty the enemy or what? He'll be the Irish Teashop in January 2023 when he gets his stint.

I can see the two particular Remainers mulling over whether or not to say he's right because the UK government is not keeping to its international obligations in respect of Brexit agreements.

Gollum Cummings said today that the UK always planned to ditch the NI Protocol anyway, if he's proven to be telling the truth heads need to roll imo

nomadking

14-10-2021 13:54

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheDaddy (Post 36097386)

Gollum Cummings said today that the UK always planned to ditch the NI Protocol anyway, if he's proven to be telling the truth heads need to roll imo

The NI Protocol was only in the event of absence of a deal with the UK as a whole. In theory if the EU was ever intending on acting in good faith, it wouldn't never have been needed in the first place, which it wasn't whatever way you look at things.

There was never going to be a mass movement of items not approved by the EU from GB to the EU via NI. Even if there was, there is nothing illegal about that.
Ireland depends heavily on goods coming from or through the UK.
Link

Quote:

The EU has released its plan for a reduction of post-Brexit checks on goods and medicines arriving into Northern Ireland from the rest of the UK.

...
The new plan, which seeks to calm a long-running dispute over a key part of the Brexit agreement, would remove about 80% of spot checks, the EU said.

So that's doing Ireland more of a favour than GB or NI. Why didn't the EU agree to that in the first place?

jonbxx

14-10-2021 15:05

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36097387)

Bit confused by this. The EU wants to protect its' Single Market and Ireland has not intention of leaving the EU any time soon so there were three options - closing the border between the Republic and Northern Ireland, threatening the Good Friday Agreement, the whole of the UK staying in the Single Market or having the North stay in the Single Market.

Options 1 and 2 were no go due to either international or internal relations so option 3 was the only one. I am not sure why you think there's no risk of non-EU approved goods crossing the border in to the EU if there is essentially no border. Bringing goods in to a country where they are prohibited is certainly illegal, it's called smuggling

1andrew1

14-10-2021 16:35

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36097387)

So that's doing Ireland more of a favour than GB or NI. Why didn't the EU agree to that in the first place?

Can you clarify how this is a favour to Ireland.

nomadking

14-10-2021 17:19

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36097390)

NI is not part of the EU single market, but as the NI protocol specifies, IS part of the UK single market.
Non-approved doesn't mean illegal. EU states can legally produce non-approved items, just as long as they don't market them etc within the EU. Small amounts of goods will always move across ANY border. There just wouldn't be the shipping of large quantities of non-approved goods from the UK into the EU via NI. Even then it would be an issue for the EU alone, just as it is for every other country on the planet. EG Chinese producers sometimes can and DO ship non-approved items into the EU and UK. Nothing new about that. Then again EU countries sometimes can and DO ship non-approved items to other EU countries and the UK. There simply was no justification for imposing restrictions on moving items between GB and NI.

---------- Post added at 17:19 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36097396)

Can you clarify how this is a favour to Ireland.

Link

Quote:

Around 4,000 or 60-70% of medicines in Ireland come from or via the UK and the Government has confirmed this supply will be threatened by a no-deal Brexit.

Link

Quote:

The industry’s other concern is that any regulatory divergence between Ireland and a post-Brexit Britain may see manufacturers pull out of the Irish market if it deems the cost of doing business here too prohibitive.
“Ireland has had access to the pharma market by piggybacking on the UK. Having some 60m people next door who speak the same language has been beneficial,” said Mr Connolly.
“If manufacturers have to produce different batches, or packaging, or marketing material for Ireland and that drives up costs, they might decide not to bother if they think it won’t pay them to do it.”

Irish farmers used to prefer to buy their seed potatoes from the UK, as they were better quality and less disease-ridden than those from the EU.

Hugh	14-10-2021 17:42

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36097398)

NI is not part of the EU single market, but as the NI protocol specifies, IS part of the UK single market.
Non-approved doesn't mean illegal. EU states can legally produce non-approved items, just as long as they don't market them etc within the EU. Small amounts of goods will always move across ANY border. There just wouldn't be the shipping of large quantities of non-approved goods from the UK into the EU via NI. Even then it would be an issue for the EU alone, just as it is for every other country on the planet. EG Chinese producers sometimes can and DO ship non-approved items into the EU and UK. Nothing new about that. Then again EU countries sometimes can and DO ship non-approved items to other EU countries and the UK. There simply was no justification for imposing restrictions on moving items between GB and NI.

---------- Post added at 17:19 ---------- Previous post was at 17:14 ----------

Link

Link

Irish farmers used to prefer to buy their seed potatoes from the UK, as they were better quality and less disease-ridden than those from the EU.

You may wish to inform the nidirect.gov.uk website about the inaccurate information on their Official website…

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles...eland-protocol

Quote:

As a result of the protocol, NI has in effect remained in the EU's single market for goods

Oh, and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/assembl...s-and-answers/

Quote:

As of 1 January 2021, the UK has left the EU single market and customs union, and its relationship with the EU is governed by the Withdrawal Agreement, and the Trade and Cooperation Agreement. Under the Protocol on Ireland/Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland remains in the EU single market for goods.

And the Irish Tax Authorities

https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-tr...-ni/index.aspx

Quote:

Under the Revised Protocol on Ireland and Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland:

legally remains part of the customs territory of the UK
effectively remains within the EU Single Market for the movement of goods only.

jonbxx

15-10-2021 11:02

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36097398)

I see the first part has been covered but on your point about non-EU products entering the EU, this is only done under very specific controlled circumstances. The non-approved products can only enter the EU to be further processed in to an approved state or held at specific auditable locations. There is a lot of paperwork involved at the port of entry.

The company I work for makes non-approved machinery for shipment to the US. Even the simple act of moving it from the factory to the shipper and onwards to the airport or port is riddled with difficulty.

In the case here, the port of entry in to the Single Market is where the goods are offloaded in Northern Ireland, not at the Northern Ireland/Republic of Ireland border

Sephiroth

20-10-2021 14:07

Re: Britain outside the EU

Britain & Poland outside the EU?

Paywall link & selected quote: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-ne...ttle-brussels/

Quote:

EU will not survive if Poland wins rule-of-law battle with Brussels, European leaders warn

The European Union will not survive if Poland wins its rule-of-law battle with Brussels, European officials have warned.

In an unprecedented attack on a member state, European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen said Brussels would move to punish Warsaw after its courts challenged the primacy of EU legislation earlier this month.

“This ruling calls into question the foundations of the European Union. It is a direct challenge to the unity of the European legal order," she told the European Parliament in Strasbourg, as Mateusz Morawiecki, Poland’s prime minister, sat across the chamber.

“We cannot and we will not allow our common values to be put at risk. The Commission will act," she said, adding measures under consideration included withholding tens of billions of euros from the EU’s budget and coronavirus recovery fund or stripping the country of its basic membership rights.

:
:

During a combative debate in Strasbourg, Mr Morawiecki hit back, accusing the EU's leaders of attempting to turn his country into a province of a greater state.

LOL double LOL. How can we quietly help Poland to succeed? And, indeed, what would that "success" entail? If their Supreme Court does not rescind its constitutional ruling then you can be sure the EC will try to force its hand through witholding financial assistance. But will there be unanimity among the Council of Ministers? Hungary would veto anything like that in the Council, but the EC will try to use their delegated powers.

Interesting times. Implosion is possible!

Chris

20-10-2021 14:18

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

During a combative debate in Strasbourg, Mr Morawiecki hit back, accusing the EU's leaders of attempting to turn his country into a province of a greater state.

The penny has dropped.

Sephiroth

20-10-2021 14:29

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36098198)

The penny has dropped.

Much water to flow under the bridge as Poland considers the loss of income from the EU. The hoped for implosion might have to meet fudge.

nomadking

20-10-2021 14:40

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36097407)

You may wish to inform the nidirect.gov.uk website about the inaccurate information on their Official website…

https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/articles...eland-protocol

Oh, and the Northern Ireland Assembly.

http://www.niassembly.gov.uk/assembl...s-and-answers/

And the Irish Tax Authorities

https://www.revenue.ie/en/customs-tr...-ni/index.aspx

From actual Protocol.

Quote:

DETERMINED that the application of this Protocol should impact as little as possible on the everyday life of communities in both Ireland and Northern Ireland,
UNDERLINING their firm commitment to no customs and regulatory checks or controls and related physical infrastructure at the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland,
RECALLING that Northern Ireland is part of the customs territory of the United Kingdom and will benefit from participation in the United Kingdom's independent trade policy,
HAVING REGARD to the importance of maintaining the integral place of Northern Ireland in the United Kingdom’s internal market,

The problem is that it all relies on the EU not being awkward as part of the Joint Committee.
Just look at France and their fishermen for how that is going to go.
IIRC Under WTO rules, if a territory has different customs rules, then it is formally a separate territory under WTO rules. As there are rules for between NI & GB, NI is a separate customs territory.
Link

Quote:

2. For the purposes of this Agreement a customs territory shall be understood to mean any territory with respect to which separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade of such territory with other territories.
3. The provisions of this Agreement shall not be construed to prevent:
(a) Advantages accorded by any contracting party to adjacent countries in order to facilitate frontier traffic;
(b) Advantages accorded to the trade with the Free Territory of Trieste by countries contiguous to that territory, provided that such advantages are not in conflict with the Treaties of Peace arising out of the Second World War.

If NI is part of the UK customs territory as specified in the Protocol, then GB cannot have "separate tariffs or other regulations of commerce are maintained for a substantial part of the trade" with NI. Otherwise NI becomes a separate customs territory and things get even more messy.NI(ie UK government) would have to come to a formal trade agreement with GB(ie UK government again).

Carth

20-10-2021 14:41

Re: Britain outside the EU

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36098199)

Much water to flow under the bridge as Poland considers the loss of income from the EU. The hoped for implosion might have to meet fudge.

I read the other day that the EU are withholding payments to Poland until this is all sorted (to the EU's satisfaction obviously), and the Polish are calling it blackmail . . which in a sense isn't far from the truth.

nomadking

20-10-2021 15:05

Re: Britain outside the EU

For how many years has Germany ruled that German Law has primacy over EU law, and suddenly it's a problem?

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