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-   -   Superhub : Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2? (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33704864)

Jon22 09-05-2017 16:05

Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Are there any plans for more than 2 upstream channels to be bonded? Reason I ask is that I've noticed there are 4 upstream channels available in this area, although only 2x16QAM being bonded at any given time. These being:

25.8 MHz
32.6 MHz
39.4 MHz
46.2 MHz

I'm guessing that it's not going to be needed until upload speeds go higher? Although I think I remember 3 upstream channels being bonded when the WiFi sharing was originally released. Is that happening with the re-release of the WiFi sharing?

JordanTheToaster 09-05-2017 17:07

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
With how bad Virgins upload speeds are I doubt they have any need.

Kushan 09-05-2017 20:12

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
About 18 months ago, some people did get a 3rd channel bonded (And possibly a few with 4?), around the time of the "first" Wi-fi rollout before they packed it in. However, it reverted back to just 2 when the rollout was cancelled.

General Maximus 10-05-2017 04:53

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
there were two things going on at the time. They were rolling out a third channel for the public wifi sharing and at the same time there were working on the modulation to try and squeeze more bandwidth out of each channel as they were also in the process of rolling out some new tiers with higher upstream speeds. Although we all went back down to 2 channels afaik everyone should have been on QAM64 (and nit 16) shortly afterwards (which makes it a long time ago).




Quote:

Originally Posted by JordanTheToaster (Post 35898173)
With how bad Virgins upload speeds are I doubt they have any need.

I can get 12mbits up any time of day any day of the week. My upstream is actually more consistent than my downstream.

JordanTheToaster 10-05-2017 06:26

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
As in you can get 250 with 30 in America and I know in some other country's the upload is far higher for what you get is my point.

olisun 10-05-2017 10:36

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
1 Attachment(s)
I got some weird modulation for my upstream channels.

Kushan 10-05-2017 11:32

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
They should both be 64QAM, 32QAM is a fallback. The system will try to get the best modulation it can but if it encounters noise, it drops back - more reliable, but less bandwidth.

64QAM > 32QAM > 16QAM -> QPSK

I imagine if you reboot, it'll probably fix itself - but if you're not getting any errors, don't fret over it.

Jon22 10-05-2017 14:36

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by General Maximus (Post 35898238)
Although we all went back down to 2 channels afaik everyone should have been on QAM64 (and nit 16) shortly afterwards (which makes it a long time ago).

As far as I know, this area has only ever had 2 bonded at QAM16. But then it's only recently that the connection was moved to a new Cisco CMTS. Although the old CMTS should of been capable of QAM64 on the upstream, so perhaps something else is holding the move back?

adduxi 10-05-2017 23:09

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon22 (Post 35898275)
As far as I know, this area has only ever had 2 bonded at QAM16. But then it's only recently that the connection was moved to a new Cisco CMTS. Although the old CMTS should of been capable of QAM64 on the upstream, so perhaps something else is holding the move back?

Same here, I've been on 2 QAM16 for as long as I can remember. I guess it's, as you say, something else holding up QAM64 ?

General Maximus 10-05-2017 23:20

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I thought everyone had been on qam64 for a long time. For a while i was on one qam64 and one qam16 but like i said, i am sure both of mine have been 64 for the best part of a year. You wouldnt think so when i post screen dumps to help people out because i repost ones i made about 3 years ago which is why i did anew one for this thread.
I am hoping that in November they'll announce 500mbits on docsis3.1 to start rolling out next year.

SnoopZ 11-05-2017 00:08

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by General Maximus (Post 35898341)
I thought everyone had been on qam64 for a long time. For a while i was on one qam64 and one qam16 but like i said, i am sure both of mine have been 64 for the best part of a year. You wouldnt think so when i post screen dumps to help people out because i repost ones i made about 3 years ago which is why i did anew one for this thread.
I am hoping that in November they'll announce 500mbits on docsis3.1 to start rolling out next year.

I've only ever been on qam16 according to my modem settings.

General Maximus 11-05-2017 00:34

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
it is a shame Igni isn't around to provide more info, I haven't seen him in ages.

philipp 11-05-2017 11:13

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by General Maximus (Post 35898341)
I thought everyone had been on qam64 for a long time. For a while i was on one qam64 and one qam16 but like i said, i am sure both of mine have been 64 for the best part of a year. You wouldnt think so when i post screen dumps to help people out because i repost ones i made about 3 years ago which is why i did anew one for this thread.
I am hoping that in November they'll announce 500mbits on docsis3.1 to start rolling out next year.

I was QAM 64 and then my ubr was changed/upgraded, Been on QAM 16 ever since.

adduxi 11-05-2017 15:30

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by General Maximus (Post 35898351)
it is a shame Igni isn't around to provide more info, I haven't seen him in ages.

He posts over on the VM Forums now and again.

Sephiroth 13-05-2017 00:02

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I've been on 4 upstream channels for nearly a year. 3 are on 64QAM and one still on 16QAM. VM were intending that customers should have upstream at 10% of downstream. To do that, they would need to add upstream capacity, hence 4 channels. But I'm still on 200/12 so I don't know where VM are with that.

Incidentally, if one channel is on 16QAM then that will drag the overall upstream capacity down. 16QAM has 4 bits per symbol & 64QAM has 6 bits per symbol. But because a data packet is split across all the upstream channels, it can only be reassembled at the bit density rate of the slowest channel.

General Maximus 13-05-2017 00:15

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
That's a bit **** (can't think of any other way to say it). Luckily both of mine are qam64 but knowing that non-identical pairs are pointless you would have thought they would only spend the time and money doing the upgrades if they could ensure that all channels in the bonding group run on the same modulation.

Travelstar 13-05-2017 09:35

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
We have 3x64qam upstream channels here and have been for quite sometime.

Sephiroth 13-05-2017 10:35

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Yes - I had 3 upstream channels for a while before the 4th came along. One of them has always remained 16QAM. VM won't want to keep the 25.8MHz channel at 16QAM but they're taking their time getting onto that.

pip08456 13-05-2017 12:02

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I'm waiting for the business 350Mb becoming in my area, then I may condider coming back to VM.

How about you Seph? Better SLA and no need for a phone line.

Travelstar 13-05-2017 12:24

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35898669)
I'm waiting for the business 350Mb becoming in my area, then I may condider coming back to VM.

How about you Seph? Better SLA and no need for a phone line.

I personally don't have a phone line, but use a SIP service from voipfone who are cheap as chips. My good upload rate means that the service is usually a pretty high quality.

To be perfectly honest, our outgoing calls are minimal and the SIP phone service is kept largely as a way to allow family to call the house more than anything else.

Nedkelly 13-05-2017 15:45

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
One of the limitations of parts of the network is the outside plant where the amps in the street can use freq over 50 mhz . But the new kit being rolled out is more than capable . So being able to use more freq in the upstream will help . Docsis 3.1 rewrites the way HFC plant works using OFDM which can deliver some great upstream and downstream speeds :)

General Maximus 13-05-2017 19:43

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 35898669)
I'm waiting for the business 350Mb becoming in my area, then I may condider coming back to VM.

How about you Seph? Better SLA and no need for a phone line.

I am hoping to sign up to Homeworks next month because I like the idea of 300/30. I am glad homeworks+ is an optional extra because when I saw that somebody would be coming round to my house and playing with my wifi settings my immediate reaction was :sniper:

broadbandking 20-05-2017 15:56

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I used to have 3 upstreams and now I back to 2 but strange how I used to be on 16 D/S and now I back to 8 D/S

Kushan 20-05-2017 16:54

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Possibly a reseg happened?

Sephiroth 20-05-2017 19:02

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushan (Post 35899665)
Possibly a reseg happened?

I would expect a reseg to increase the number of channels so as to reach the VM target of 20/24 DS and 4 US.

A reduction suggests that a CMTS has gone out of service and the displaced people have been swung onto another CMTS, reconfigured to share out the now meagre resources.

Travelstar 05-07-2017 11:47

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Seems I have finally moved from 3 upstream channels to 4. Downstream still at 8.

Synthetic 05-07-2017 11:55

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travelstar (Post 35906220)
Seems I have finally moved from 3 upstream channels to 4. Downstream still at 8.

Interesting, I've recently gone to 24 downstreams, but still on 2 (mismatched qam ) upstreams.

General Maximus 05-07-2017 11:59

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I am still on two. I had a third one which was qam16 for a couple of months a few years ago when they were trying to push out the wifi sharing thing for the first time but it got taken away when they knocked it on the head.

daveybm 05-07-2017 13:31

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
1 Attachment(s)
After a 14 hour outage covering the most of Wirral on Fri 30th June it all came back on with 4 upstream channels all at 16QAM, before that it was always 2 channels at 64QAM so have I gone backwards?

daveybm 05-07-2017 13:39

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
1 Attachment(s)
7 minutes after that screenshot and the power levels have dropped to 40/41dBmv

Paul 05-07-2017 15:33

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by General Maximus (Post 35898734)
I am hoping to sign up to Homeworks next month because I like the idea of 300/30.

Wait .... Homeworks is 300/30 ?

rtho782 05-07-2017 18:25

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35906262)
Wait .... Homeworks is 300/30 ?

No...

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/07/2.png

Paul 05-07-2017 19:43

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Aww, I was ready to sign up for a moment.

Jon22 06-07-2017 02:41

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Telf13 finally got 2xQAM64 last Thursday. Was previously on 2xQAM16. I'm on Telf14, still on 2xQAM16. Not usually too far behind once Telf13 is done.

alanbjames 10-07-2017 14:16

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Swansea now has 4 must have happened in the past few days.

joglynne 10-07-2017 17:32

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I may have missed the post already saying that Manchester has 4 upstream bonded channels. Or is this now standard for SH3. :dunce:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/07/5.jpg

I was so pleased to at last get more than 50 Mbps I never noticed whether I had had 4 up 20 down all along.

General Maximus 10-07-2017 17:47

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
All shubs can use a 4 channel bonding group if it is made available.

vm_tech 10-07-2017 18:32

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
All depends on the area. The network I work on is currently running 42mhz filters so there are only 3 upstreams in total. Once the amplifiers are upgraded this will open up more spectrum both forward and return. Different areas will have different equipment and different capabilities.

vm_tech 10-07-2017 22:35

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Another point to add, the areas with 4 bonded upstreams have most likely always had 4 upstreams. It's probably the case they have only recently become bonded

ccarmock 10-07-2017 23:12

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
That will explain what I have been seeing. I am on the business service on the Hitron. In this area (fed from New Malden) I see two upstreams, but after different reboots the two I see is different. It looks like there are three available, but which two of the three I get varies.

Jon22 13-07-2017 14:20

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Are the upstreams brought up to QAM64 before all 4 are bonded? Or are there areas with say 4x QAM16 bonded?

Paul 13-07-2017 14:27

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Still only two bonded here, both at 64 QAM.

General Maximus 13-07-2017 14:40

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon22 (Post 35907645)
Are the upstreams brought up to QAM64 before all 4 are bonded? Or are there areas with say 4x QAM16 bonded?

They started upgrading to qam64 a long time before they thpught about 4 upstreams so if/when you get 4 upstreams they should all be qam64. That being said, there were areas that were on 3 upstreams before before the upgrade work begun to bring them up to qam64 so it is possible that when some areas move to 4 upstreams that they'll have a mix of qam64 and qam16. I am still on 2 upstreams and i had one of each for a long time.

Kushan 13-07-2017 14:42

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul M (Post 35907647)
Still only two bonded here, both at 64 QAM.

Same.

Inactive Digital 13-07-2017 19:00

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon22 (Post 35906325)
Telf13 finally got 2xQAM64 last Thursday. Was previously on 2xQAM16. I'm on Telf14, still on 2xQAM16. Not usually too far behind once Telf13 is done.

I'm on Telf13 and still 2x16QAM.

Jon22 13-07-2017 19:23

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Inactive Digital (Post 35907691)
I'm on Telf13 and still 2x16QAM.

Ah ok. My dad's is on Telf13 and that is on QAM64 now. Perhaps it's done node by node?

Travelstar 31-07-2017 08:23

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Seems my 4th upstream channel vanished the other day, so now back at 3. Still only 8 downstream channels, but as during off-peak, this still delivers 200. Peak is another matter (approx 15-40), but that's a discussion for another thread.

Ignitionnet 13-08-2017 14:48

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by General Maximus (Post 35898351)
it is a shame Igni isn't around to provide more info, I haven't seen him in ages.

This had better be really good. What's up General?

---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35898591)
Incidentally, if one channel is on 16QAM then that will drag the overall upstream capacity down. 16QAM has 4 bits per symbol & 64QAM has 6 bits per symbol. But because a data packet is split across all the upstream channels, it can only be reassembled at the bit density rate of the slowest channel.

A packet will almost always go on a single channel. Remember that the modem receives its grants in 2 or 4 ms increments, the CMTS scheduler tries to service each request on a single upstream, and what the minimum and maximum burst sizes are.

---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:42 ----------

So there is a programme to get all areas up to 4 upstreams, targeting 64QAM but obviously the modulations will respond to SNR drops on the channels.

Getting 4 upstreams at 64QAM requires either DFB lasers in the nodes or digitised return paths. In some areas nodes and amplifiers need replacing.

There are also issues in hubsites with regards to space and power. There are some areas where it took some quite extreme measures to get new CMTS in, or they haven't been installed yet and area awaiting those extreme measures. These will not have any space for new optics so will need some equipment and intelligence moved out into the field via Remote PHY and other options in the Distributed CCAP deployments.

It is possible to cram 4 upstreams into a 42MHz network but tricky, and areas that have this limitation have run out of downstream bandwidth anyway. There's also the problem of the legacy set top boxes and modems that need to be gotten rid of.

There are no plans to get all tiers onto 10:1 ratios, but some of them it's certainly doable.

Once areas are onto 24 downstream channels that's the end of the upgrades on that score. 4 upstream channels is not necessarily the end-game there.

DOCSIS 3.1 rollout will not be using 3.1 upstreams initially, it will use the same upstreams as the 3.0 network. This is not unusual, I'm not aware of any 3.1 deployments in the USA and Canada, where they are ahead of us, that are using 3.1 upstreams.

Business are likely to get higher speeds somewhat before residential.

General Maximus 13-08-2017 17:35

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
long time no see, welcome back

vm_tech 13-08-2017 17:53

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
[/QUOTE]
Getting 4 upstreams at 64QAM requires either DFB lasers in the nodes or digitised return paths. In some areas nodes and amplifiers need replacing.
[/QUOTE]

I've haven't worked on the network for a while, so could be wrong but I believe the digital returns for some reason can only go up to 65mhz, so VM are trying to move away from them. They are only used in segmentable nodes anyway. Although it's been a good 18 months so the situation may have changed!

Ignitionnet 13-08-2017 18:16

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 35912274)
I've haven't worked on the network for a while, so could be wrong but I believe the digital returns for some reason can only go up to 65mhz, so VM are trying to move away from them. They are only used in segmentable nodes anyway. Although it's been a good 18 months so the situation may have changed!

Yeah indeed. Newer nodes have field replaceable diplexers that can switch from a 5-85MHz mid-split to a 5-200MHz high-split return path.

The plan going forward is to push towards Remote PHY, where there's a 10Gb Ethernet link to the node and the only RF segment is from node outwards, rather than sending an analogue carrier down the fibre. This will improve RF performance to the home and substantially reduces space requirements in the hub site.

Will require more power than existing nodes, though may be compensated for by improved power supplies and replacements of active amplifiers with nodes.

vm_tech 13-08-2017 19:42

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I have heard about the 10gb Ethernet delivery to the cabinet. I also know the potential delivery method. Although I believe it is aimed at business customers rather than resi. But things change over time so who knows

Ignitionnet 13-08-2017 20:17

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 35912306)
I have heard about the 10gb Ethernet delivery to the cabinet. I also know the potential delivery method. Although I believe it is aimed at business customers rather than resi. But things change over time so who knows

The 10G backhauls will be replacing the analogue laser run. The RF will be generated at the node, the node takes the place of the optical transmitter and receiver that are in the hubsite.

ileikcaek 13-08-2017 21:26

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I'm just wondering when my area will actually see any upgrades after seemingly languishing for years. there's no 300Mb yet, upload is still on 2x QAM16, the CMTS is a RiverDelta hunk of junk with the current single thread download speed issues that I and other people in the area have had to deal with since last year. Tbb places this area as bottom of the chart for VM performance now, when it used to be one of the best.

vm_tech 13-08-2017 21:32

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ileikcaek (Post 35912339)
I'm just wondering when my area will actually see any upgrades after seemingly languishing for years. there's no 300Mb yet, upload is still on 2x QAM16, the CMTS is a RiverDelta hunk of junk with the current single thread download speed issues that I and other people in the area have had to deal with since last year. Tbb places this area as bottom of the chart for VM performance now, when it used to be one of the best.

All CMTS's will be one of 2 different types eventually. Where are you?

ileikcaek 13-08-2017 21:34

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 35912344)
All CMTS's will be one of 2 different types eventually. Where are you?

I'm in Dover, should have mentioned it. :)

Broken Hope 14-08-2017 14:43

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Am I right in thinking that if I'm on 24 downstream channels then I'm on the newer, upgraded hardware?

Jon22 14-08-2017 14:51

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Broken Hope (Post 35912418)
Am I right in thinking that if I'm on 24 downstream channels then I'm on the newer, upgraded hardware?

Yep, either a Arris E6000 or a Cisco cBR-8.

Mythica 14-08-2017 15:12

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ileikcaek (Post 35912339)
I'm just wondering when my area will actually see any upgrades after seemingly languishing for years. there's no 300Mb yet, upload is still on 2x QAM16, the CMTS is a RiverDelta hunk of junk with the current single thread download speed issues that I and other people in the area have had to deal with since last year. Tbb places this area as bottom of the chart for VM performance now, when it used to be one of the best.

I'm in the same boat. 24 downstreams but only 2 x QAM16 upstreams. The other week the postcode checker said 300Mb was available but now that's disappeared and it now says 200Mb.

Ignitionnet 14-08-2017 15:49

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I'll see what I can find out regarding Dover hub site.

With regards to bonding 4 upstreams not a clue what the hold up is. There are plenty of areas that are perfectly capable but just haven't had the configuration rolled out and it's holding things up.

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------

Dover is proving a real pain in the everything.

Should be upgraded within the next 2.5 months.

adduxi 14-08-2017 18:28

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ileikcaek (Post 35912339)
I'm just wondering when my area will actually see any upgrades after seemingly languishing for years. there's no 300Mb yet, upload is still on 2x QAM16, the CMTS is a RiverDelta hunk of junk with the current single thread download speed issues that I and other people in the area have had to deal with since last year. Tbb places this area as bottom of the chart for VM performance now, when it used to be one of the best.

Same here, with the exception of only 12 DS, so don't feel left out ;)
TBB placed Lisburn as one of the worst VM areas as well. Good to know this area is not alone in the "top poor performance stakes" ..... <sigh>

ileikcaek 14-08-2017 19:13

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Thanks for the info, Ignition. I hope it holds true.

We are still on 12 channels here due to the limits of the old CMTS.

Jon22 15-08-2017 01:36

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Thanks for the reply Ignitionnet. Don't suppose you would be able to find out when this area (Telford, specifically Telf14) are likely to go 64QAM on the upstream? No worries if not :)

Ignitionnet 15-08-2017 12:34

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Jon22 (Post 35912560)
Thanks for the reply Ignitionnet. Don't suppose you would be able to find out when this area (Telford, specifically Telf14) are likely to go 64QAM on the upstream? No worries if not :)

Sorry Jon, have to refer you to my earlier post:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35912433)
With regards to bonding 4 upstreams not a clue what the hold up is. There are plenty of areas that are perfectly capable but just haven't had the configuration rolled out and it's holding things up.

All part of the same programme to get 4 x 64QAM upstreams bonded.

If it's an issue with the network itself needing rebuilding you'll get a card through your door at some point to inform you of upcoming maintenance work.

Travelstar 16-08-2017 17:33

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Over the past few weeks my 4 upstream channels went back to 3 however my downstream always remained fixed at 8.

Last night everything appeared to change. I now am back to 4 upstream channels and now 20 channels, which is a little surprising as I always thought the plan was to go to 24. Any ideas on why the odd number?

Ignitionnet 16-08-2017 17:46

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Yes. 24 is the maximum capability of the platform, not a minimum. No reason to spend the money on deploying 24 straight away if 16 or 20 will suffice for now.

JordanTheToaster 16-08-2017 17:52

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
What exactly is the upstream channel situation in Bath? Will 4 channels ever be here?

Travelstar 16-08-2017 17:58

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35912874)
Yes. 24 is the maximum capability of the platform, not a minimum. No reason to spend the money on deploying 24 straight away if 16 or 20 will suffice for now.

Thanks for the quick reply. I admit I always thought they would go straight to 24. That said, seeing the increase to 20 is a welcome sight, although with the Puma 6 modems I'm worried about the likely increase in latency this will bring.

vm_tech 16-08-2017 18:35

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Travelstar (Post 35912876)
Thanks for the quick reply. I admit I always thought they would go straight to 24. That said, seeing the increase to 20 is a welcome sight, although with the Puma 6 modems I'm worried about the likely increase in latency this will bring.

For additional downstream frequencies, a license has to be purchased from
The CMTS provider. So makes no sense financially to run at full capacity unless necessary.

Sephiroth 16-08-2017 22:08

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 35912881)
For additional downstream frequencies, a license has to be purchased from
The CMTS provider. So makes no sense financially to run at full capacity unless necessary.

That's an important pointer to the remedies in VM's capacity management toolkit.

Ignitionnet 16-08-2017 22:34

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by vm_tech (Post 35912881)
For additional downstream frequencies, a license has to be purchased from
The CMTS provider. So makes no sense financially to run at full capacity unless necessary.

Exactly. VM pay for every downstream channel they turn up. With that in mind running with the fewest feasible downstreams is a good call.

The node my property is connected to, for example, only has about a hundred premises on it right now as the build is incomplete, so runs on 16 channels. I will play my part in triggering an upgrade by subscribing to the business 'Voom' 350/20 service, waiting on the next business service to come along.

---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35912908)
That's an important pointer to the remedies in VM's capacity management toolkit.

Same for every other provider realistically.

When 24 downstream channels are inadequate for an area they will either have to split the node, which they may do via a remote PHY solution, or deliver DOCSIS 3.1 to offload heavy users from the 3.0 platform.

Kushan 17-08-2017 14:48

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Isn't the idea of DOCSIS3.1 that instead of (say) 24 "large" channels, you have lots and lots of smaller channels to make better use of the available spectrum?

I wonder how that affects licensing.

Ignitionnet 17-08-2017 14:56

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushan (Post 35912991)
Isn't the idea of DOCSIS3.1 that instead of (say) 24 "large" channels, you have lots and lots of smaller channels to make better use of the available spectrum?

I wonder how that affects licensing.

On the Cisco kit at least you pay by 3.1 spectrum in use and maximum modulation:

Code:

Router# show controller integrated-cable 3/0/0 rf-port 158 verbose
Chan State Admin Mod-Type Start Width PLC Profile-ID dcid power
output
Frequency
158 UP UP OFDM 627000000 96000000 663000000 30 159 32
NORMAL
Resource status: OK
License: granted <17:02:35 EDT May 18 2016>
OFDM channel license spectrum width: 92200000
OFDM modulation license (spectrum width): 2K (6000000)


Kushan 17-08-2017 15:02

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
That makes a lot more sense!

Ignitionnet 17-08-2017 15:08

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kushan (Post 35912994)
That makes a lot more sense!

Indeedy.

It's all done this way as we're not that far away from not needing physical CMTS at all, all done in software, so need the ability to charge MSOs without having physical line cards for them to pay for.

Nice explanation of this at http://www.gainspeed.com/our-solutio...-architecture/

ccarmock 17-08-2017 23:59

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
My area is fed from New Malden, and was on 12 down streams for a fair time. a few months ago it went to 16 downstream channels. Even though there was no apparent congestion this jumped to 24 down with 2 up about 4 weeks ago. It was done at the same time the CMTS was swapped for a Cisco 10k

No idea if the upstreams are 16 or 64QAM as the Hitron will not show that information for upstreams. Nor will it show operational config details.

Ignitionnet 18-08-2017 00:57

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ccarmock (Post 35913071)
No idea if the upstreams are 16 or 64QAM as the Hitron will not show that information for upstreams. Nor will it show operational config details.

I await the Hitron with enthusiasm. I am quite sure I can find ways of making it talk. :ninja:

ccarmock 18-08-2017 01:47

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
yes it would be good to have it reveal a bit more. It certainly doesn't provide as much information as the residential devices about the service:-


DOCSIS WAN
DOCSIS Overview
Network Access Permitted
IP Address
Subnet Mask 255.255.248.0
DHCP Lease Time 04 Days,22 Hours,07 Minutes,20 Seconds
Downstream Overview
Force Downstream Frequency (MHz)
Port Frequency (Hz) Modulation Power (dBmV) SNR (dB) Channel
1 139000000 256QAM 4.200 37.356 1
2 147000000 256QAM 4.000 37.356 2
3 155000000 256QAM 3.900 37.356 3
4 163000000 256QAM 3.800 37.356 4
5 171000000 256QAM 3.700 37.356 5
6 179000000 256QAM 3.700 36.387 6
7 187000000 256QAM 3.900 34.484 7
8 195000000 256QAM 3.700 35.780 8
9 203000000 256QAM 3.700 37.356 9
10 211000000 256QAM 3.800 37.636 10
11 219000000 256QAM 3.500 37.356 11
12 227000000 256QAM 3.300 36.610 12
13 235000000 256QAM 3.000 37.356 13
14 243000000 256QAM 2.900 37.356 14
15 251000000 256QAM 2.800 36.610 15
16 259000000 256QAM 2.700 37.356 16
17 267000000 256QAM 2.600 36.610 17
18 275000000 256QAM 2.600 36.610 18
19 283000000 256QAM 2.700 37.356 19
20 291000000 256QAM 2.700 36.610 20
21 299000000 256QAM 2.700 36.610 21
22 307000000 256QAM 2.700 36.610 22
23 315000000 256QAM 2.800 36.610 23
24 323000000 256QAM 2.600 36.387 24
Upstream Overview
Port Frequency (Hz) BandWidth Modulation Power (dBmV) Channel
2 24400000 6400000 ATDMA 40.750 3
3 31000026 6400000 ATDMA 41.250 2

Sirius 18-08-2017 22:01

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35913076)
I await the Hitron with enthusiasm. I am quite sure I can find ways of making it talk. :ninja:

I have mine in modem mode connected to a Pfsense router. I could not stand the issue where you cannot login in to the hitron software to change settings as it would work sometimes and sometimes it would not.

Ignitionnet 19-08-2017 00:13

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 35913222)
I have mine in modem mode connected to a Pfsense router. I could not stand the issue where you cannot login in to the hitron software to change settings as it would work sometimes and sometimes it would not.

I'll have other ways of monitoring the network if the Hitron proves resilient, and obviously I'm not going to poke at it too hard. Terms of service and all that. Don't really fancy being booted back to 50Mb if I'm lucky.

ccarmock 19-08-2017 14:54

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet (Post 35913238)
I'll have other ways of monitoring the network if the Hitron proves resilient, and obviously I'm not going to poke at it too hard. Terms of service and all that. Don't really fancy being booted back to 50Mb if I'm lucky.

The Hitron itself is reliable. The key issue with the service at the moment is the poor download performance at times with the routed subnet option for some people. Progress is being made with that though.

Sirius 19-08-2017 15:05

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ccarmock (Post 35913278)
The Hitron itself is reliable. The key issue with the service at the moment is the poor download performance at times with the routed subnet option for some people. Progress is being made with that though.

I will be very happy when they sort out the login issues.

Jon22 22-08-2017 13:01

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
One thing that I've noticed is that my connection is worse, if going by the tbb graph, when it is bonding the 2 upstream on 39.4 and 46.2MHz. The average latency on the graph is much more consistent when it's on 25.8 and 32.6MHz.

Jon22 13-11-2017 14:32

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Any further news on this? Still on 2x 16QAM here.

ileikcaek 13-11-2017 14:45

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
^ My area was moved to a new CMTS late last month and we went from two to four Upstreams (24 downstreams), All of the Upstreams are QAM16 though, I heard that my area was upgraded to QAM64 a while ago, but seemingly not the node I am on.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/11/16.png

Paul 13-11-2017 15:16

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Just checked mine again, still on 2 x 64 qam (Up) and 24 x 256 qam (Down).

Synthetic 13-11-2017 16:11

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Still 2x 64qam here too, however there is planned maintainence on the 22nd so I'll be keeping an eye on it.

General Maximus 13-11-2017 18:56

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ileikcaek (Post 35924799)
All of the Upstreams are QAM16 though

I wouldn't worry about it. Four qam16's are better than two qam64's and it also means the hard work is done. When they get upgraded to qam64 it will just be the icing on the cake.

Paul 13-11-2017 22:06

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by General Maximus (Post 35924849)
I wouldn't worry about it. Four qam16's are better than two qam64's.

Really ?
I'll admit to mostly being ignorant about how exactly qam works, but I would have expected 2 x 64 to be better than 4 x 16.

Sephiroth 13-11-2017 22:16

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
QAM64 = 6 bits/symbol
QAM16 = 4 bits/symbol

At is simplest:

2 x QAM64 = 12 bits per thingy
4 x QAM16 = 16 bits per thingy

So 4 x 16QAM is better than 2 x 64QAM.

General Maximus 13-11-2017 22:20

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Nope. I am lying in bed watching star trek atm so i cant dig out all the technical gumpf for you but qam64 offers a 50% increase in throughput over qam16. I can use any arbritray numbers for the sake of example. Say you have got two qam16's doing 20mbits each, that is 40mbits for the bonded pair. If you upgrade those channels to qam64 you are looking at 30mbits each and 60 for the pair. If however you keep them at qam16 and add a further two channels then you are looking at 80mbits for the bondings group. Like i said, that is rough numbers for an example but mathematically four qam16's give you 33% higher throughput than two qam64's.


Edit: damn you seph, i just spent 5 mins typing that out on my phone :p

Sephiroth 13-11-2017 22:35

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Keep it short, mon General!

General Maximus 13-11-2017 23:07

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
If you knew me you have no idea how hilarious that is. I dont do short :)

Sephiroth 14-11-2017 07:22

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
For which the price has been paid, mon General.

dragon 17-11-2017 21:42

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Moved recently and when from a 24 downstreams to 12, 2 upstreams @ qam16

Also means the most I can get here is 200, at least they let me keep gamer, hate to think what me uploading does to the neighbours.

ileikcaek 19-11-2017 14:49

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Today I've seen someone on the VM forum with not four, but five bonded upstream channels! :Yikes:

Screenshot of their image for reference.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/11/21.png

JordanTheToaster 19-11-2017 17:32

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
That's insane that would be funny if it's actually real.

Sephiroth 19-11-2017 20:21

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ileikcaek (Post 35925520)
Today I've seen someone on the VM forum with not four, but five bonded upstream channels! :Yikes:

Screenshot of their image for reference.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/11/21.png

I had that for a day or two last year!

dragon 20-11-2017 13:18

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
I thought the SH3 was only capable of 24x4 :erm:

Paul 20-11-2017 14:59

Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 35924905)
QAM64 = 6 bits/symbol
QAM16 = 4 bits/symbol

At is simplest:

2 x QAM64 = 12 bits per thingy
4 x QAM16 = 16 bits per thingy

So 4 x 16QAM is better than 2 x 64QAM.

Ah, I see, that makes sense now. Thanks.


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