Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've posted an analysis with 13 points in it, (12 of which are not about charity ads) over on BT Beta forums - it may be helpful for anyone planning an ICO letter or MP letter because I've put in page numbers etc. to save everyone squinting at the scan.

I mentioned this a day ago but a lot of sewage has flowed under the bridge since then.

You should be able to access it here (scroll down to my post on June 5th 11.27am)
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=750&tstart=0
I've also expressed my views on the legal heavyweight action in a seperate post - just got back from London and am catching up!

I really wonder whether Bt would want to be taken through that leaked document point by point in front of a jury. It's not as if their reputation could have been damaged by the noDPI article - it was on the floor already - and a courtroom cross examination of a BT executive with detailed questioning of all the things they have have done and said would be most unwelcome for them.

Imagine them discussing their understanding of the word "transparency" as used in the leaked document, and then asking them what it means when Kent uses it in a PR statement or when he speaks to his privacy auditors or the ICO

Imagine getting them to explain in court just what they meant by "stealth trial" - or "avoiding any perception that their system is a virus" (while reminding them what their support staff called it when Stephen Mainwaring rang them.) - getting them to explain the circumvention of T&C's by 121Media's cookie dropping campaign - the monitoring of helpdesk calls while not actually "helping" any customers who wanted to know what the *** was going on - their awareness of customer complaints about the trials but their cover up of what they were doing - their intention to improve "transparency" in the second trial (which sort of transparency was that Ms Sanderson? Your sort or the sort Phorm PR team were touting? Covering up while pretending to be open?) - the admission of javascript injection - the misinformation regarding IP addresses in terms of submissions to the ICO when it would seem that IP addresses were in fact available -

Do they really want to be taken through all that in cross examination?
As well as have either a lawyer or Alex take them through his paper on the trials, paragraph by paragraph and ask them about it - in court - under oath? Are they sure they want to do that?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Beta Forums now require a password and username to read the threads. Or at least that is what I was presented with when I clicked your link above.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're expecting justice when the system itself is skewed. The man (a few pages back) who "accidentally" leaked the BT document to Private Eye did a whole lorra good. The fact "My Learned Friends" have been on to Alex is a sign of their weakness, not their strength. But the HO is your big problem. They're doing exactly the same thing themselves. And again, sadly, those guys MAKE the law. If you think that the judge in any important case isn't either selected or leaned on, you're a fool.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.pcworld.com/businesscente...als_in_uk.html

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And same for I. Very secretive! :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=750&tstart=0
and then scroll down - I've edited my post above. Sorry - the url when logged in obviously doesn't work for those who aren't.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I love the preformance critieria in the report especially No 7 Security

Requirement
Verify pageSense Conforms to BT Security Standards

Success Critieria

Measrure the effectivenesss of the 121Media application click through rates
Revenue share model
Projected Revenue share based on trial Click through rates and proposed Revenue sharing model

Does this mean the only measure of security in BT is profit ?

Good to know the trial was compliant in this area.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Message #8038 from one time poster 'oro' was deleted, along with others regarding the Phorm Advert hijacking thread. I kept my copy of the message before it was deleted.

I found it strange that one time poster 'oro' was dropping heavy hints and tips about this hijacking matter prior to Phorm lawyers threatening Alexander. Friendly insider info? Agent provocateur? Man with crystal ball?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've always used the link below to get to the thread, then click 'last post' to get to the end. Trying to reference individual posts does not appear to work for non-BT users.

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...?threadID=3152

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

GET REAL - profit is the ONLY thing that MATTERS!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In the above link and in others I have seen lately they are still touting "Phorm has agreements to begin trials with two other major ISP's (Carphone Warehouse and Virgin Media). The BBC among others also stated similar in their recent report.

The big question is: why are not Virgin Media 'clarifying' the issue with these reports if they are, as they have recently stated, still only evaluating the situation. Either these sites have got it badly wrong and you would expect VM to be quick to correct this as a 'good' ISP to their worried and concerned customers, or is somebody is telling pork pies?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I strongly suspect that VM have pulled a stunt. A 'tip off' to the Guardian by an inside source that they will shortly be dropping Phorm.

That's bought them several weeks from being under the cosh. They are just hoping to get to the end of the BT trials so they can see which way the wind is blowing.

Not a bad strategy, considering it's the one adopted by HMG.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If this was the case, sadly for VM, I see delays for the trials as rewrite after rewrite must be taking place to get around the obstacles we see and hear daily such as 'cookie vulnerabilities' pointed out recently.

Lets face it. If BT / Phorm get this trial badly wrong with the world watching, I imagine heads will definitely roll and those heads will want to ensure the system is watertight from a hackers point of view. It has taken Microsoft years attempting to do this and they are still learning and falling as new vulnerabilities are found. Is is seven or eight windows critical updates this Tuesday ;)

Re "Not a bad strategy, considering it's the one adopted by HMG"

How does it go? "You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

GET REAL - profit is the ONLY thing that MATTERS!

OK, boring, I won't keep saying it, but it's appallingly germane to this particular case

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I seen this as a reference tonight. I am sure the poster wouldn't mind me using it.
http://www.aclu.org/pizza/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We heard you the first time. Most people posting to this thread are well aware that the way to defeat these grubby companies is by hitting their profits and our best way of doing that is by putting them on the wrong side of the law.

Any idea what else we should do?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great vid and says alot. I have mailed them to see if they will allow it to be cross referenced to other sites - as the message is the same with phorm etgc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A thought for BT shareholders and perhaps something we can expand on at the demo.

Before the dot.com bubble burst at the turn of the decade, BT were a massive global telecommunications company.

Now they are not, due to wrong management decisions.

They seem to be putting a lot of eggs in the dot.com Mark 2 basket at the moment. Perhaps we could expand on this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I love this bit:

WTG, Phorm; only a ******* company passes the buck back to one of its own partners. :p: :p:

OB

btw, :welcome: No. 42 :td:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just found this BBC report

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7438578.stm

this Q&A is a good read
http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My point is that there is sod-all you can do. What is about to be done to you has already been planned and agreed by so-called democratic governments in agreement with private corporations and the shift has been from the original perspective - in which we, the punters, used to elect governments to be trusted to handle the larger affairs we couldn't be fagged with or didn't know enough about, to a situation in which the government (in happy partnership with 'Private Enterprise') regards us as cannon fodder, to be used and manipulated as it sees fit. C'est ca. How do you propose we go back? Even if we could conceivably get a win out of this one, it still won't stop the way things are headed.

I'm afraid that we, as the half-way intelligent and aware, have been comprehensively sidelined by the overwhelming might of Rupert Murdoch, his minions and his imitators, who have created a scenario whereby anyone who questions the idea of economic success (at any price) is automatically a subversive. Which of course all of you guys are. Not to mention...............

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It buys them a bit of time to have a group hug and come up with a bit of spin.

---------- Post added at 03:06 ---------- Previous post was at 02:34 ----------

I think i'm probably broadly in agreement with you. We no longer elect the government we want, we get rid of governments we have had enough of. Roughly every 15 years or so. During the first 10 of those 15 years they get away with murder.

We probably can't change the situation. One generation at least has grown up with an 'edutainment' rather than an education and most of them seem to think they went to school with Buffy the Vampire Slayer.

I don't like the situation, but I do think this is one we can win. I think our MP's are largely a waste of space, but we may get something out of Europe. Maybe it will ultimately depend upon the Congress in the US. God help the 'Phormed' BT subscriber who visits a US web site if they decide it's illegal. A free night flight and an orange boiler-suit for them.

Sadly, the reason I think we can win it is because we can embarress a shaky government that is coming up to it's natural (15 year) lifespan and they are worried about what Europe and the US might do. Not forgetting a whole wodge of useless MP's who will start to worry about their seats.

But if the Yanks decide it's super we'll get it anyway.

Just my thoughts as someone who has never written to his MP or logged into a forum until I heard of Phorm. I always vote though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The big problem about disenfranchisement is that you begin to believe that ANY change will be for the better, as you seem to do. Unfortunately, the only alternative in our current case will be even worse. Our electoral system comes more and more to reflect the American, where not a gnat's cocklorum separates one from the other, and where a televisual presence will ultimately decide. Both alternatives are indivisibly wedded to big business and if business wants targetted advertising through whatever means are available, legal or not, then they will most certainly get it - personal privacy never stood a snowball's chance in hell. Especially if government gets access to all the information as well - a no-brainer. If you think that Cameron will be more careful of civil liberties that Brown, you should think again. We've all been shafted, and it happened with the Ronnie/Margaret/Greed is Good syndrome. That was when money became god and the devil take the hindmost. Hi, hindmost!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

we could do with an ISP/Phorm and the Phormettes version of this information video if the artists amoung the readers here can make the time to do it and upload it to Youtube phorm section.

thanks to Nicholas Bohm for the link on the cypto list
http://www.aclu.org/pizza/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Labougie, you can continue to do that but apathy doesn't rule here and I won't be giving up. The only reason any of this crap has happened in the first place is because of the complete apathy of the general population, but I disagree with you completely in that I believe if that apathy can be dissolved then the people can definitely get those rights back.

When passion swells in the general populace because they have had enough and don't want to take this crap any more, then no government or corporation in the land will stop it.

You believe what you like, but frankly I find your comments an offence to people who do give a flying unmentionable and an illustration of part of the problem, not part of the solution. Attitudes like yours are exactly why we are in the situation we are in the first place in my opinion. Instead of being such a pessimist how about becoming pro-active and trying to do something and make a difference instead of just sitting there talking defeatist rubbish.

Seriously, why some people even bother to post if all they are intent on doing is trying to dampen morale, is beyond me.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's not the way I think, although I grant that many people do.

I don't want to turn this into a political thread, but with regard to the Phorm issue, I just think we need to kick a weak government when it is down, where it hurts.

10% tax band and fuel duty are mass issues, watch the twerps backpeddle on those. Phorm will never become a mass issue in a short timespan (but if it's implemented we will wear them down by blaming every fault on it).

We need to gather a vocal 'critical mass', use the UK & EU law where we can, the media where it's willing and just grind away. Take advantage of a weak government.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As a contributor to your book fund, you may see that I'm on your side. If this is a party, then I'm sorry to have dampened it. As for your contribution to this entire issue, I'm in awe of your energy and I hope you can use the work you've put in to this to positive effect. Perhaps Simon felt that way once? Maybe I'm older and more tired than you, but I've seen the inevitability - with or without our concerted efforts, this stuff is going to happen - like it or not. It's the way of the future - get used to it.

But if we can have a party in the meantime?

(See you on the 16th - I'll be the one with the anorak)

---------- Post added at 04:59 ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 ----------

In order to change it for what?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just don't see what you hope to achieve by posting defeatist commentary, it serves no purpose. Clearly we believe we can make a difference or we would not be making as much noise as we are.

Your attitude seems to be, there is nothing we can do we are all doomed and slaves to the system, and I am sorry but I don't and never will see life that way; for as soon as one starts to believe that then life literally has no meaning.

I am no spring chicken and I am also tired and every day I get more and more tired, I sleep every couple of days at best for 4-6 hours. Neither am I naive, I have travelled extensively around the world and experienced many cultures and political regimes, I have studied society and government at an academic level; I am fully aware of how difficult the situation is but I would never lose hope.

I want my children to grow up in a free society (free as in liberty not as in beer) and I will fight until my last breath to try and secure that for them no matter what the odds, no matter who the adversary and no matter how tired I am; and the more people who do that, the stronger society becomes and the sooner we get rid of these political and corporate incumbents. Give up? No, it is not something I could do, our lives are our legacies, what defines the memories of those we leave behind when our lives end and I want my life to mean something and to influence change for a better tomorrow. I am a person, not a component, I don't exist to serve to the functioning of the machine, I exist to live and breath and experience, I exist to learn and to pass that knowledge on to others so they can learn and I exist to grow.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Get a bit of backbone will you, and stop bleating?

Ask your grandparents, and great grandparents. They knew how to treat criminals who wanted to steal their rights. Do what they did.

Otherwise, start a new thread, that's what I'd recommend. For people who are apathetic. I've done it for you "Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Apathy Thread".

Now can we get back on topic?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well to get back on topic I have a bit of an update re: the legal threats.

It seems Phorm are happy with my retraction and apology although they reserve the right to revisit the threat at any time.

Emma Sanderson on the other hand, doesn't seem to understand what no means. She asked me to remove the section of my article questioning whether BT misled ICO and has stated it is defamatory; I will not remove this section as it is personal opinion based on evidence and it is my right to have that opinion under law.

So I have told her that if they are going to sue me for defamation I expect to hear from their lawyers by 2pm on Monday otherwise I will be forced to conclude they are menacing me with a plan to gag me and force my withdrawal from the debate.

I will update you all on Monday once I have more news.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think you get me wrong. I simply think that your children would be better protected by taking a stand over VPN - many of us must use it already, and at this point, shouldn't we all switch to https and then see exactly WHO is going to challenge us over that? And why? Phorm is only ONE enemy. Larger picture, guys!

---------- Post added at 07:45 ---------- Previous post was at 07:41 ----------

Alex - They'll never sue you in a million years!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander - on your page you say "until about a week ago, BT’s Webwise web site was run by Phorm".

Its still on 3rd party hosting, and the netblock owner is still "Phorm IPv4 Assignment". The Webwise Help Desk have said "Phorm currently operates the Webwise information site (www.bt.com/webwise) on BT's behalf".

So it is *still* run by Phorm, sadly.

PS. www.bt.com/webwise redirects you to -> http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/index.php (Phorm operated)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

VPN and https are too exclusive and by that I mean they exclude far too many people. Processing everything over https is going to mean costs for non profits are going to rise and as a result communities like cableforum will struggle to emerge. There is a magnitude of difference in processing requirements for a busy web server between http and https and many non profit sites would simply never survive without resorting to advertising which many people do not want to do.

VPN is impractical because it excludes all but the technically tuned in, meaning the majority of people will be excluded.

But more importantly, we should not have to resort to subterfuge in order to obtain liberty and privacy, these are afforded to us as inalienable rights. In fact by evading these systems and going underground, we are in essence giving up our rights instead of enforcing them, which just means more and more rights get eroded until we have none left.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 07:54 ---------- Previous post was at 07:52 ----------

Add a comment if you like, I was more interested in getting the point about the contact page which was processing significantly personal data, across. It is my understanding that the contact page is no longer controlled by Phorm?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

When your postman is opening your mail, I wouldn't think that 'subterfuge' would be exactly the word for getting another postman.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wilco. You know BT are leaking email addresses and security credentials to Phorm simply by viewing pages? (see earlier warning to BT customers).

You don't even have to submit a contact Phorm. Simply looking at the webwise.bt.com pages can give Phorm a BT customer's email address (and other security credentials).

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No you are correct, subterfuge would be taking action for your mail to evade the postman's prying hands, such as wrapping it in 17 layers of duct tape.

Subterfuge is a perfectly apt word for vpn and https though.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex - hang on here a minute - I don't actually NEED the duct tape to stop my postman reading it because there is an assumption of privacy implicit in the postal services. Even the most malicious administration conceivable would be hard put to open and read every letter sent. We have conveniently provided the powers that be with everything we do and think in a neat digital format which is much more accessible to them, and doubtless they want this information (for reasons which remain obscure to me):

If I care to encrypt my letters, is that an automatic assumption of some form of guilt Yes/No

These are the battlelines we ought to be gearing up for.

Have a good party (and I'll be there myself) but there are MUCH larger issues at stake.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The BT Webwise contact page data is now handled as part of the normal BT Help and Support operation which is outsourced to custhelp.com - who do all the other help stuff. That change occurred "covertly" just after the exposure of the fact that emails to help were coming back with ww3.phorm.com or 121media.com in a References: header and with FW in the Subject line. We got 'em there and wrecked someone's bank holidyay. As there was also a fire in Houston that day, it wasn't a good weekend for BT Webwise. I eventually got an email and there was a Beta post explaining the change over but claiming there had never been anything wrong with Phorm doing it anyway - but now they were changing the system and using custhelp.com

But:-

They (custhelp.com) are very very persistent on demanding extra personally identifiable information - I'm trying to get a question on webwise answered at the moment via their contact.php page and custhelp.com keep coming back and asking for the non-mandatory information that I didn't put on the contact form, my BT customer account number, and phone number "so they can handle my enquiry". I keep saying no, and they keep saying they need it. I'm letting the correspondence run on, as I like getting that sort of stuff. It looks good in letters of complaint to the ICO.

Currently, in order to answer the question I asked recently:-
> The site www.webwise.bt.com seems to have disappeared off the
> internet. Has something broken?
> Was there a brownout in Houston?
> Is FASTHOSTS or GoDaddy or thePlantet.com broken?
> So many strange things happening with BT Webwise at the moment.

they are saying for the second time

"I am sorry for any problems this has caused you.
In addition to your question of why we need your account number and telephone number it is so that we can access your account to solve your query, and for security.
I am sorry for the way you feel however in order to solve this matter quickly I would need the information required.
Once again I am sorry for any confusion caused.
If you should have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me again via e-mail.
Thank you for contacting BT.
Yours sincerely,
********** *********
eContact Customer Service"

even though in response to their first request for that data I replied:

"Thank you for your reply.
I'd rather not disclose this personally identifiable information that you
ask for. I cannot see why my phone bill account number should be necessary
to answer the questions in my original submission form.
I asked these questions - you can answer them without my account number or telephone number. None of the questions relates directly to my individual
account details and the information requested below was not marked with an
asterisk on the enquiry/contact web page, and I choose not to supply it now.
Thank you."

Still sending out boiler plate rubbish. In my experience of BT help and support by email it can take about three or four more cycles of this before a human being intervenes so I'll keep going although my holiday may intervene!

In my next reply I'm going to demand the reason why they need this information and threaten them with yet another report to the ICO if they refuse.

---------- Post added at 08:29 ---------- Previous post was at 08:27 ----------

I agree. One thing that all of us should do at present, is to use writetothem.com to send our MP and our MEPs follow up letters about the leaked document. Feel free to use my post over on BT Beta
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=754&tstart=0
as a catalogue of complaints. The MP's got sold a pup in the briefing document they were given by BT, and so they think there is nothing wrong. Their "trust" in BT needs shaking and that leaked document shakes it severely and just might get them moving.

Likewise the ICO

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The ISPA used the postman analogy a few months ago to say that they couldn't be expected to monitor content to detect filesharers because that would be like opening letters and it was illegal - and anyway they couldn't do it (DPI).

Now they have major members doing exactly that, who say it IS legal.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

NoDPI.Org is currently down, not sure why I am looking into the problem.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, why don't we all move to https? There's a commercial opportunity, if ever I saw one!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And we can all wear burkas to defeat CCTV. I'm not keen. And I don't want to have to pay for https just to have the protection that the law says I already have with http.

Nope -my website content is my intellectual property, and it does not belong to my ISP or to Kent Ertugrul. He may be able to see it - but that is all. He can see it but he has no right to copy it, make derivative works from it, and no right to commercially exploit it without my consent and without paying ME the appropriate amount of dosh.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK NoDPI is back up had some problems with the page caching plugin which is now disabled until I can figure wtf happened.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, It has been mentioned in the past on Cable Forum (and loads of other websites) that ISP's have given out personal information about people that have dowloaded a "Pinball" game and then they have been pursued by a Legal firm called Davenport Lyons. They have asked for money from them or they will be taken to court. Here is a link about it, there is loads more if you search the internet.

http://torrentfreak.com/youre-caught...w-or-go-broke/

dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm seeing a blank home page Alexander - http://nodpi.org/ - it is loading the html file but there's only a few standard tags in there and no content. I was looking for the "Leaked BT Document" just now to add to my complaint they are working on...

PS - Stick to your guns on the latest BT demand to remove the comments you have made questioning if they have misled the ICO.

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks - ok here now too... www.nodpi.org

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I was experimenting trying a few things, it is back now.

http://cryptome.org <- I never knew that was there til just now.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex don't give in on this Emma is desperate I think she has realised with Ian moving up she might be the fall guy or women, if this goes bad for BT.

Personally I think Ian also brought BT's name into disrepute thinking about adding Phorm to the network so both should resign or AGM vote a no confidance in them.
Sadly the last might not be that easy since they increased the company shares to almost match the voting shareholders shares. This is a sign of a company desp.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Did they ever answer the question over exactly how they will supposedly avoid processing password protected forums? I remember K*nt saying they would not process password protected content, but I don't remember him saying how. The reason I bring this up is that it is one area where consent to view can be definitely shown to have been denied. (There is always the argument of a reasonable expectation of consent for 'published' website even if subsequently found to have disclaimers).

There was also the issue of 'hidden' URLs not designed to be linked to. And of course the blacklists of webmail services, and agent types that we have never been allowed to see.

Maybe we should re-visit some of the original key issues lest they are forgotten.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a comment & definitely not aimed at anyone, don't forget that BT & Phorm have been planning this for 2-3 Years, so watch out for Posters/Supporters who claim to be on your side, but slowly try to sideline the debate.

After the Leaked Report, I have noticed the possible re-immergence of some of these "dog in the mangers", trying some damage limitation around the WWW.

---------- Post added at 11:42 ---------- Previous post was at 11:35 ----------

[QUOTE=vicz;34570098]Did they ever answer the question over exactly how they will supposedly avoid processing password protected forums? I remember K*nt saying they would not process password protected content, but I don't remember him saying how. The reason I bring this up is that it is one area where consent to view can be definitely shown to have been denied. (There is always the argument of a reasonable expectation of consent for 'published' website even if subsequently found to have disclaimers).

In order to guarantee that they have not visited a Password Protected Site, I believe they would have to look at the Form Fields.

I thought I read or heard in one of the interviews, that this is something this system is supposed to avoid? (could be wrong though, it's difficult to keep up with this thread & others.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly so that is what happened on the BT beta forum and finnished with bans an thread closure but thanks to the few that remained they kept it rolling and I am pleased to see that it is once again gaining momentum .Many thanks to the many contributers to all the main forums especially the cross posters as it gives a more united appearance to those who are against this privacy intrusion.

Where can I but an anorak anyone?

Tarquin;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To protect you from the crossfire of BT/ phorm best look at army and navy stores sure they will have something with bullet proof vests attached :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nope - I've had no answers on that. They have said they won't do it, "and of course BT is an honourable company" so of course I believe them (Julius Caesar, apologies to Brutus, at least he's dead and won't sue me for defamation).

Of course you can just copy the details of the official ADMISSION that Phorm were hosting the contact page, which several of us have received, and the Dephormation logs about bt.com cookies, and the details of the overseas hosting, and the lack of listings of US partners on Safe Harbor, and then ask if all that was explained to the ICO - and I suspect the correspondence might dry up - or end with the "it's all legal cos Ernst and Young said so". And Ernst and Young of course are honourable men too, just got some dodgy friends and a few US judges who don't like them.


Yes, they claim not to look at form fields. But then of course if that is turned into an http GET request, (like on a google search box) then they DO look at that, because they have admitted collecting google search strings that way.

What about anoraks as the official uniform for the demo?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Added a few things to the NoDPI website including a Poll on whether or not people think BT should be prosecuted. Please complete the poll.

Privacy Policy is now up also.

Can someone who has a forum account please check what cookies you have on your system for NoDPI.Org

You should have no more than 2-3 cookies from the site as follows:

Poll Cookie (only if you participate in a poll)
Login Cookie (if you are registered for the forums)
Test Cookie
If people can let me know what they get for situations where they are not registered members and have not taken part in a poll, it will help me to confirm the cookie policy, which I will add to the privacy policy.

Thanks

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:33 ---------- Previous post was at 12:32 ----------

Just going for a bit of a nap, I will be back later.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is there any precedence for BT suing an individual?

I was wondering Ms Sanderson had overstepped the mark with this tactic. In the bigger scheme of BT they have the corporate brand image to protect.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's actually a good way of rounding off the revenue stream. Profile the blogger's internet usage, and punt it. Profile the blogs webserver and generate kewords, punt advertising based upon it, and lastly, sue the blogger.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey Alex

Just checked the cookies (Forum Member) and all are as you have above

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Me too, Alex.

Cookies are as you said. :) HTH

Does Emma S. have a case against you?
Did BT not assure the ICO that no personal data was collected? The report shows they did harvest and use people's IP addresses, which is personal data.

Where's the defamation?

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More on www.webwise.bt.com etc

The sites listed in the IPv4 Assignment, note 3 BTwebwise sites.

http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/hosted...89.145.113.255

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suspect you already know what the situation is, but just to spell it out to the wider readership -- the BT/Phorm crooks are playing a war of attrition with Alexander they have got no intention of going to court with him because although they could probably get a £1Million judgement against him for defamation (which they would never collect), the damage to them would be 10's if not 100's of millions £££ in the providing the catalyst to their collective demise.

BT are on a hiding to nothing with this Phorm relationship, their risky gamble is that the British consumers will accept the Intra-ISP Rootkit spying. Phase 1 of the project has already failed, namely to roll out WebLies and no one notice or bother. Phase 2 continue the trial phase and hope they can ride the storm: Failing already -- delayed/setback trial dates, legal team clearly worried, BT Echelons clearly worried, cannot find 10,000 willing reliable dupes to fake a positive outcome.

Alex you should have just let them continue to threaten to take you to court for defamation, we would have seen the collapse of Phorm and several BT execs out on their ear and your future as an advocate guaranteed. Anyway you're in charge of what you do so I guess you'll have this all figured out in your own mind. If stuttering Emma continues to be a pain give her the last warning and quote the 1997 Harassment Act at her. 'Big grin'


Incidently Oro PM'd me regarding the mystery post about the legal threats maybe s/he will PM you.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/06/72.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

R Jones. Those thirteen points you posted on the BT forum (note direct link) are spot on. Unfortunately I sent another letter to my MP before I saw them.
Any objection to those being cross-posted on other forums?


NOTE:
Link to a BT forum post by changing the &start=xxx where xxx is the post count.
(post is placed first on the page)
Works even if not a BT customer and therefore not registered with the BT forums .
E.g:
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=801&tstart=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you visit a site using Access authentication, then your browser sends an "Authorization:" header with an obfusticated username:password (something like Authorization: Basic r3y1r45DCB67E89BOZbdAV==) with every request after you've logged on - they can check for that header and ignore your request and the server's response.

If a site uses other methods such as cookies to verify that you've logged in then I can't see them checking, although I suppose it might be possible to check for common cookie names used to store log-ins by forum software. They can also check the robots.txt to see if google is disallowed from indexing the pages.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Somehow I can't see them doing anything but the last unless pushed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I've said before - very happy if that post is used - that's what it's there for. If possible use it, attribute it and link. If you use it to write to Emma Sanderson, do quote my name and tell her you appreciate my "voracious appetite for detail". In fact you can even refer to me as "the holy man with the voracious appetite for detail" (One of her recent criticisms of me - I can see why she doesn't appreciate it. If only some more at BT had such a voracious appetite for detail they might not be in this mess.) The holy man bit refers to my day job - and the fact that a BT manager once included me on the Cc list of a mail which was about me but not meant to be TO me - luckily it was saying I was right, so wasn't defamatory - after all we can't have any defamation can we?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sure they include code that can check for the Authorization header, as it would allow them to make the claim that they don't profile [some] password protected sites and use this to satisfy less technical people (eg politicians). They can't rely solely on robots.txt as some sites that use passwords allow google to index them.

I think we can trust them to respect the authorization header every bit as much as we can trust them to respect their opt-out cookies.:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Of course phorm can do whatever the f*ck they like because the muppets at BT clearly haven't got a clue what they are up to or the nous to understand it, and Earnst & Young and/or PI are going to run a mile from anything technical. No wonder the NPfIT is such a bloody shambles if the quality (I use the term loosely) of BT staff is anything like that we have seen first hand involved in the phorm fiasco. Sheer utter incompetence! How the devil can they try to sell their so-called expertise to others? Lets see BT try to sue me over that one then.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex - Yawn - hope the nap went well. I've visited your new forums but it took me quite a while to find where to register till eventually I scrolled down on the right to "meta" and found a register link. I'm used to forum registration options coming up at the top of a forum screen view.

I've voted and registered and am still logged in and I have a
WordPress cookie
A wordpress test cookie
A voted cookie.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hate to say this but after rereading the leaked report while listening to Emma answering questions then onto Kent and his answers trust is a word I fail to see working, their word is worthless now, spoken or written. Their actions and responses tell more than they wished them to their actions towards Alex proves more than they wished to say.
a few words that mean a lot to customers that have this year with this been tested trailed and failed, respect, trust. BT was heading the right way trust and many respected but now they need to re-earn this back.

Phorm has to learn they cannot buy respectability it is earned, trust is also earned. Kents actions are what he is judged on to see how much or if we can sadly he has also failed mind he might have half tried but then I am cynical with him after his rootkit killed my sons computer.

MPO BT have jumped in bed with the devil, he tempted them offering money and BT sold their soul for the cash. The big problem is they also sold their customer’s souls and now need to find a stealth way to deliver without the customers finding out and fleeing to where they are safe.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wouldn't it be nice, if the groups in this Country took a leaf out of the USA regarding Phorm et al. (As reported by The Register)

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can see BT, TalkTalk and Virgin Media are struggling to understand the complex issue of copyright.

For their convenience I've created a simplified "ISPs Guide to Copyright", an instructional video if you will...

Enjoy (you will ;) )

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/video/copyright.wmv

(with sincere apologies to anyone who can't handle wmv)

COPYRIGHT FREE - FEEL FREE TO REDISTRIBUTE WITH MY BLESSING

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/06/38.gif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That would be difficult when you have GB as the none voted in prime minister on a paraniod trip for security from terrorists. Now all are terrorists unless you can prove other wise so total survilence. more like total madness he must be in need of putting out to grass retirment early.

Look at what has been thought of by him supposedily for our security and how many of these things have lost personal details data that they most likely didn't need was lost in the public domain. They gather more than they need so then become the sercurity leak.

We need a new fresh start with public safety in the list and more for the public to defend themselves from intrusion into their privacy, more in protecting them from large corporate companies leeching from their privacy.

:LOL: :LOL: :LOL: @ that had to watch it three times was listening out for any stutters or hesitation but there was none but a infectious laugh at the end.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While we're on creative writing, I'm planning a script for a Bremner Bird and Fortune interview with Georgina Parr, BT Director of Customer Stealth Trials and Profiling, starring John Bird in a skirt and wig. It will of course be entirely fictional and speculative.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ROFL

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I like it. Just one small quibble, perhaps you should rename the "police" character as "Mr Bailiff" as surely copyright is a civil matter?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No - it is criminal... if you're a business. :)

See section 107 (Criminal liability for making or dealing with infringing articles, &c).

Also section 110 (Offence by body corporate: liability of officers).

BT directors could go to prison for copyright alone (never mind fraud, DPA, RIPA etc).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's even better then. So the police/Crown Prosecution Service would, in theory, take up the case?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What this now looks like is BT say it isnt legal the law as we see it and some legla advisers say it is. Using the information from the ICO the only way to prove it is legal or not is through court so now the secret trials should go to court to prove once and for all it was illegal (or legal)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For those who haven't seen it yet - link to the story in the Economist's Technology Quarterly

http://www.economist.com/displaystor...ry_id=11482452

It would appear to be slightly biased towards being in favour of Phorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ROFL

Infotainment

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here, Here, Alex I agree 100% with you on this!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder if any technically minded people here could summarise (in layman's language) the relevant bits of the leaked report, so I can add them to my summary of the non-techie bits, and put the whole thing together as a document anyone can use to send to their MP/MEP/ICO etc.

I'll leave it to the techies to decide what is significant - perhaps the IP address issues, the latency - and other stuff I don't understand. The main importance would be to pick up technical stuff that had a bearing on the illegality of the 2006 trials, or had a bearing on the alleged duplicity and deceit of any consequent statements by BT and Phorm.

The key thing would be to keep it in layman's language and make it easy to understand - don't want any MP's dozing off before they get to the end.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cryptome has an interesting old PDF from charles clarke MP

clarke-rip-lie.htm + Charles Clarke MP Lied About RIP June 6, 2008

Charles Clarke MP Letter:
http://cryptome.org/clarke-rip-lie.pdf (4pp, 823KB)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

13,974... 13,975... 13,976

Make sure your name is on the list of the smartest people on the planet. Only twenty four chances left to say "my name is in the first 14 thousand".

:group:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is another online petition on the very subject of public bodies having access to our personal information. local councils are abusing the act to spy upon their own constituents over trivial matters.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ripact/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perfect example of mission creep. I recently met one of the Financial Times legal correspondence when I was in London and they were discussing this issue.

Anyone who isn't scared of Phorm mission creep with this RIPA issue making weekly headlines needs to wake up and smell the coffee.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At least the Home Affairs Select Committee seem to be aware of the concept of function creep:
Link

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Already Done

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From the same story:
Really, Richard? Then why won't you take what we are saying about BT/Phorm/Webwise seriously? :mad:

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

NoDPI is undergoing some maintenance at the moment whilst we switch the entire site to SSL, so it may be up and down a bit this afternoon whilst we test the certificate.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

Maintenance is now complete and all access to the site should now default/redirect to https

If you experience any problems with the certificate please let me know.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander the first all HTTPS website nice shame though that BT has brought the internet into disrepute making this move needed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I doubt it is the first 100% https site hehehe but it is a good start. I think I feel a campaign to get the major browsers to add OpenCA as a valid certificate authority. It wouldn't help with hardware overheads but it would at least make the certificates free.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

True it doesn't help the Website hardware overheads, but if an ISP is misusing DPI, then it not only does it avoid unwanted data gathering, it also prevents the multiple redirects & time lags imposed on the users Browser.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The AGM report has some interesting reading in it sadly the mention of phorm or webwise must show how thye feel it needs to be hidden from public/shareholders eyes is this due to many British people having Ethics etc.

Well sent off a few questions to Ian and Emma lets see if Ian passes the book to Emma to reply if he does she is the one set to fall if it goes pearshaped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does anyone know exactly where in the Barbican the AGM is taking place?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Main entrance, although I still need to try and scout the site, I never had a chance this week whilst I was in London. If anyone else in London can go take some photos of areas in the vicinity of the main entrance (which is where the BT AGM notification is telling shareholders to go) it would save me the time and expense of a trip to London.

I will be adding an event page to the site early next week (hopefully Monday) which will have more specific details for the Protest Rally including maps, directions, resources etc.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OMG, this is STILL going on?
Why are people ignoring the facts that DPI is ILLEGAL, and so is SPYING on people????

Just shows what a truely corrupted govenment we have got and I am totally ashamed to call myself "British"

As soon as I can afford it, I'm out of this stupid, pathetic country for ever!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm a bit lost in this thread, assuming that DPI means Deep Packet Inspection, is the use of such technology illegal in the UK?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To use it to improve services like giving VOIP priority etc no as it is only sniffing then prioritiings so only checks headers and titles if I remember right but what BT plan is to use DPI to harvest keywords from websites you visit to target adverts to you using a partner in the name of Phorm >121media>peopleonpage rootkits.

This is more of a intrusion as it wil see everything you see on your screen not just identify what you are downloading. Also the adverts could be large in size and you are paying for a certain amount of bandwidth and if like me block all adverts to keep all the bandwidth for your surfing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is another point...

If I was to go messing around with people's pcs with the EXPLICIT reason to gain information about them and where they visit, I'd have my equipment seized, be thrown into a cell and probably would get a hefty sentence in the process, if I CANNOT do this, and neither can any other individual, WHY oh WHY can COMPANIES get away with it???
Then again, 1 rule for US, another for THEM, see this country sucks more than a hungry prossie!!!