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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

SelfProtection 16-06-2008 14:08
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34576463)
Dephormation will be back shortly :) it can quickly and easily log fake cookie handling and unexpected redirects. Drop me a PM with your email if you're keen to have it now.
I didn't mean to give you any extra problem, but I thought you needed to know that it would a possible Security problem with Firefox 3 and that it was due for release tomorrow.


If a Website can detected the presence of Webwise, then the WebServer could politely redirect (with a small script) the user back to the Webwise system asking them to turn Webwise OFF.

This would have an added benefit as far as Website Owners are concerned in that the Load on the Webwise System would be increased.
Dependant of course on how many WebServers are blocking/redirecting Webwise.

wecpc 16-06-2008 14:35
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart C (Post 34576289)
Not true. LLU ISPs should not be affected as they route via their own networks from the exchange.

Non-LLU ISPs may be affected if BT Wholesale do install Phorm (BT Retail is a reseller for BT Wholesale in much the same way as other Non-LLU ISPs). According to El Reg, it is rumoured that it is BT Wholesale installing the Phorm equipment.
Up until your comment above, it has always been stated everywhere that it was BT Retail that was going with PHORM and not BT Wholesale, but if the "According to El Reg, it is rumoured that it is BT Wholesale installing the Phorm equipment" is to be believed and I have not seen it myself on the El Reg site (could you post a link to it please), then nearly everyone (NON LLU) will be effected assuming VM goes with it as well.

I have just emailed O2 as I am on their 'ACCESS' package (NON LLU) as they have previously assured me the following "Thanks for your email. We don't currently use the PHORM system, and have no plans whatsoever to do so. I hope this make you feel safer about joining O2 Broadband." I have asked if they can look into it and let me know if the rumour is correct and if not make it clear to El Reg readers that it is not.

Colin

Anonymouse 16-06-2008 14:42
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I wrote to Brian Iddon MP, who's had a reply to his letter from Shriti Vadera (who?!) of the Department for Business Enterprise & Regulatory Reform (the what now?). According to him/her/your guess is as good as mine, "the Government is committed to ensuring that people's privacy is fully protected."

Yeah. I'll pause briefly while the incredulous sardonic laughter dies down.

"Both the ICO and I have discussed with BT their plans to run a trial involving around 10,000 broadband users, and the company has confirmed their decision that customers' web browsing will only be monitored for subsequent delivery of advertisements if they decide to opt in to the trial."

- now why don't we believe them? And if this Shriti Vadera is such an apparently prominent figure here, why the hell haven't we heard of him/her/it before?
Then:

"BT have also told us that the system will not store personally identifiable information, URLs or IP addresses not retain browsing histories, and that search information will be deleted almost immediately and will not be retrievable later. The ICO will maintain close contact with Phorm and BT throughout the trial. Similarly any ISP putting Phorm into comercial use is going to need to deploy simiar safeguards to satisfy the ICO."

Nothing about satisfying us, though. Nor do I believe a word of it. Define "immediately", for a start - is that minutes after the info is gathered? Hours? Days? Weeks? What the hell does that mean?

Comments?

bluecar1 16-06-2008 14:49
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 34576550)
I wrote to Brian Iddon MP, who's had a reply to his letter from Shriti Vadera (who?!) of the Department for Business Enterprise & Regulatory Reform (the what now?). According to him/her/your guess is as good as mine, "the Government is committed to ensuring that people's privacy is fully protected."

Yeah. I'll pause briefly while the incredulous sardonic laughter dies down.

"Both the ICO and I have discussed with BT their plans to run a trial involving around 10,000 broadband users, and the company has confirmed their decision that customers' web browsing will only be monitored for subsequent delivery of advertisements if they decide to opt in to the trial."

- now why don't we believe them? And if this Shriti Vadera is such an apparently prominent figure here, why the hell haven't we heard of him/her/it before?
Then:

"BT have also told us that the system will not store personally identifiable information, URLs or IP addresses not retain browsing histories, and that search information will be deleted almost immediately and will not be retrievable later. The ICO will maintain close contact with Phorm and BT throughout the trial. Similarly any ISP putting Phorm into comercial use is going to need to deploy simiar safeguards to satisfy the ICO."

Nothing about satisfying us, though. Nor do I believe a word of it. Define "immediately", for a start - is that minutes after the info is gathered? Hours? Days? Weeks? What the hell does that mean?

Comments?
look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shriti_...aroness_Vadera

now why does that filled me with a feeling of "no confidence at all"

peter

Florence 16-06-2008 15:03
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SelfProtection (Post 34576541)
I didn't mean to give you any extra problem, but I thought you needed to know that it would a possible Security problem with Firefox 3 and that it was due for release tomorrow.


If a Website can detected the presence of Webwise, then the WebServer could politely redirect (with a small script) the user back to the Webwise system asking them to turn Webwise OFF.

This would have an added benefit as far as Website Owners are concerned in that the Load on the Webwise System would be increased.
Dependant of course on how many WebServers are blocking/redirecting Webwise.
I have 5 websites willing to use a script that can do this.

NTLVictim 16-06-2008 15:13
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Shriti Vadera...now there's a name to conjure with.

and get banned as a result.

roadrunner69 16-06-2008 15:19
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Shriti Vadera

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ti-Vadera.html

Sounds like a positively charming lady :erm:

SelfProtection 16-06-2008 15:22
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34576565)
I have 5 websites willing to use a script that can do this.
The actual redirection doesn't in itself require scripting, but the problem is accurately detecting Webwise at the Server, particularly as the Web Server at present doesn't know what to detect if the cookie option is not used.

<meta http-equiv="REFRESH" content="3;url=http://www.webwise....."></HEAD>
<BODY>
This Site has Detected Webwise, Please Switch Webwise Off... !

Ramrod 16-06-2008 15:42
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Sorry if this has already been posted: British Telecom Phorm PageSense External Validation report
There is a pdf for d/l there, might be of interest to someone here :)

Wild Oscar 16-06-2008 16:08
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 34576550)
I wrote to Brian Iddon MP, who's had a reply to his letter from Shriti Vadera (who?!) of the Department for Business Enterprise & Regulatory Reform (the what now?). According to him/her/your guess is as good as mine, "the Government is committed to ensuring that people's privacy is fully protected."

Yeah. I'll pause briefly while the incredulous sardonic laughter dies down.

"Both the ICO and I have discussed with BT their plans to run a trial involving around 10,000 broadband users, and the company has confirmed their decision that customers' web browsing will only be monitored for subsequent delivery of advertisements if they decide to opt in to the trial."

- now why don't we believe them? And if this Shriti Vadera is such an apparently prominent figure here, why the hell haven't we heard of him/her/it before?
Then:

"BT have also told us that the system will not store personally identifiable information, URLs or IP addresses not retain browsing histories, and that search information will be deleted almost immediately and will not be retrievable later. The ICO will maintain close contact with Phorm and BT throughout the trial. Similarly any ISP putting Phorm into comercial use is going to need to deploy simiar safeguards to satisfy the ICO."

Nothing about satisfying us, though. Nor do I believe a word of it. Define "immediately", for a start - is that minutes after the info is gathered? Hours? Days? Weeks? What the hell does that mean?

Comments?
SNAP .. I too got a reply from my MP .. Paul Clark .. with a letter very similar to yours attached! In fact the last paragraph is word-for-word!

Also attached was a copy of the ICO 3 page document from here ..
http://www.ico.gov.uk/Home/about_us/...e_and_oie.aspx

Nothing new then .. just a 'cut-n-paste' standard reply sadly .. :td:

Dephormation 16-06-2008 16:35
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by SelfProtection (Post 34576541)
If a Website can detected the presence of Webwise, then the WebServer could politely redirect (with a small script) the user back to the Webwise system asking them to turn Webwise OFF.
There are some utils I've developed that allow you to do just that.

I need to bring this stuff back online don't I? :) Shame the Information Commissioner hasn't resigned yet. That would make the decision so much easier.

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:21 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 34576550)
[FONT=Arial]I wrote to Brian Iddon MP, who's had a reply to his letter from Shriti Vadera (who?!) of the Department for Business Enterprise & Regulatory Reform (the what now?). According to him/her/your guess is as good as mine, "the Government is committed to ensuring that people's privacy is fully protected."
...
Comments?
Fully committed unless those people are web site owners who do not opt in to interception, or run unencrypted but private web servers, or expect to assert copyright over their creative work.

Which I guess would cover around 99.99% of web servers.

So my comment? That's not good enough DfBERR. Not good enough at all.

You can't build a new internet by stealing content and reselling it. You can't offer unlimited broadband because there is no such thing.

Dealing honestly with content owners, investing judiciously in your product, and being fair to end users is your only option. And ISPs seemingly can't handle that simple truth.

Pete.

Florence 16-06-2008 16:36
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34576605)
There are some utils I've developed that allow you to do just that.

I need to bring this stuff back online don't I? :) Shame the Information Commissioner hasn't resigned yet. That would make the decision so much easier.

---------- Post added at 16:35 ---------- Previous post was at 16:21 ----------



Fully committed unless those people do not opt in to interception, or run unencrypted but private web servers, or expect to assert copyright.

Which I guess would cover around 99.99% of web servers.

So my comment? That's not good enough DfBERR. Not good enough at all.

You can't build a new internet by stealing content and reselling it. You can't offer unlimited broadband because there is no such thing.

Dealing honestly with content owners, investing judiciously in your product, and being fair to end users is your only option. And ISPs seemingly can't handle that simple truth.

Pete.
Could leave up the resignation main page but make a link to go beyond and download the files etc. That way killing two birds with one stone so to speak :D

Dephormation 16-06-2008 16:43
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Also, fully committed unless those people were unwittingly used as guinea pigs in secret trails.

icsys 16-06-2008 16:49
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34576622)
Also, fully committed unless those people were unwittingly used as guinea pigs in secret trails.
I think that's why there is a need to be able to detect webwise, in case it is deployed under stealth.
But surely BT isn't so arrogant (and stupid) enough to risk it?

But then again, as long as the ICO is inphormed...

Ph**m shares closed up 7% today at 1070.00

Wildie 16-06-2008 16:56
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
seems to me they want to hassle kids who in turn make demands on parents

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle4066426.ece
not happy about that either.


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