Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had the same idea wondering if dephormation plugin would be involved in that but I have been running pg2 ever since this whole Phorm issue came to my attention and I have never seen Phorm come up blocked.

Have people read the new news on the register? Bt trials of 2007 may have involved up to 108,000 people not the 18,000 first reported.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its ok, im just trying to find out if you and raven are on the same bit of VM network.

so as to try and work out if you both might be connected to the same kit or at least the same building at the other end of the VM cable wires.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/mi...?do=connection
if you both click that, you will get something like this
cpc3-bagu5-0-0-cust***.bagu.cable.ntl.com

i stared the cust No. out as it can identify me, and we dont need that bit anyway.

as you can see , im on the baguley5 kit, in the baguley area of the NTL section.

i assume you both might be in the same area of the BlueYonder section of VM cable network.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I popped FF3 on last week and I haven't yet changed the 2 lines to make Dephormation work with FF3 beta 5

I'll fire up the old firefox and see if dephormation makes a difference with peer guardian in there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sorry, looks as if it might have been a false alert, at least from me, due to the FF " Dephormation " plugin, I had installed it but disabled it.
I have now uninstalled the plugin compleatly and am no longer getting Phorm hits or being blocked from the BT forums.

Very sorry, but I usually depend on friends to do the tech stuff for me and didn't appreciate that just disabling the plugin would still give Phorm hits with Peer Guardian.

Bear

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

raven did you click that and get your UBR , if its false positive then fine but if your both on the same UBR or in the same building then its looking like you might be DPI phormed and if so you really want to find a way to grab the data stream...

and at some point we are going to need a step by step guide to grabbing the data stream and what to do to get the data we want,if and when they do start the trial..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The point that woke me up was

"Documents seen by The Register suggest that Phorm tests were performed at exchange level."

Does that mean that customers of non-dePhormed ISPs (Aquiss, for example) who use a BT line would have their data shoved over to Phorm anyway?

BTW please don't mention Jon Pertwee's Doctor to me. Someone told me some ideas for "slash" fiction the other night that have ruined my childhood...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok, I've rebooted, and tried both FF 2.0.0.13 with Dephormation running and FF3 beta 5 without Dephormation and there's no sign of any Phorm activity.

Surely if it was the dephormation cookie it would fire peer Guardian off in FF2?

I'm all confused now (easily done)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not only that but surely if it was carried out at an exchange level, then BT should be able to identify those involved in the trials?

Please correct me if I am wrong. As I have said before elsewhere I am not a techie as such. I am more of an enthusiastic and knowledgeable amateur rather than making my living as an IT pro so please do let me know if I am drawing the wrong conclusion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ravenheart

I am using FF 2.0.0.13 and had the dephormation plugin installed but disabled, would that still trigger Phorm hits ?

My UBR cpc4-ruth3-0-0-cust ****.renf.cable.ntl.com

As I have mentioned previously I am not a techie, really don't want to be seen as one of the " tin-foil hat" crew and the day before the public meeting is not the right time to get side tracked down a dead end.


Bear

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

they probably mean one of the 11 RAS's see #2175
"it appears they might have used the equivalent of a cable super head end to plug that DPA kit into, for DSL so thats one of the RAS."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That most likely kills that idea then LOL

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Right, I've tried FF 2 with dephormation both enabled and disabled, and no Phorm activity.

I've also been running FF3 beta 5 since it came out, and this morning was the first time any Phorm connection had triggered. And there's been nothing since.

Also wouldn't the Dephormation cookie only react/respond to a request from Phorm?

Anyone seen a van of teenagers with a great dane who could help with this ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm running FF 2.0.0.13 with the Dephormation add-on active plus PG2 (both P2P + Ads lists, plus those two IPs added manually) and nothing gets triggered when I visit the BT forum but it's blocking the Phorm website completely.

I'll leave it running so it can check me browsing to lots of suspect sites and report back anything interesting.

edit: Oh, and I'm on cable.ubr02.bath.blueyonder.co.uk if it's any interest...

---------- Post added at 10:56 ---------- Previous post was at 10:49 ----------

Nope.
But Dephormation Pete is often to be found lurking in the VM newsgroups.
He's hardly one of the pesky kids, mind you...
;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will also leave PG running and see if it returns any more Phorm hits,

Does anyone know how access and copy the Peer Guardian logs.

As I have mentioned previously I am not very techie and usually depend upon friends to aid me when I mess up, I really need someone who knows to advise me on this as I don't want to sidetrack anyone the day before the public meeting.

Would running FF 2.0.0.13 with the dephormation plugin disabled still show hits in Peer Guardian.
I have now removed the dephormation plugin and am no longer getting Phorm hits on PG2.

I really don't want to be seen as one of the tin-foil hat brigade but is it possible we stumbled on another trial which was shut down as soon as it was mentioned on here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will publish a set based on amateria's templates at http://www.inphormationdesk.org later this week
(as soon as I get time) and will let the board know.

In other news I have emailed details of the story to the newsdesks of five tabloids under the heading "BT in criminal spy row". It'll be interesting to see if there's any response. Do we know which tabloid newspapers might be considering signing up with OIX?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good question -- looks like an sql database.
Anybody got any _simple_ suggestions how we can check the logs?

Shouldn't worry, Ursine. Those with better things to do can get on with them now there are a few of us monitoring PG2.
Welcome to the PG-Phorm Detectopm club! :)

Which sites were you visiting to get those hits on PG2?

It's possible but frankly unlikely. Who can tell what Phorm are capable of?
And VM have lost what little trust I had, so without becoming paranoid I think it's wise to be vigilant.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

RE: phorm.com/ff/dephormation

I really can't see any tests/results being valid ATM - there is little chance that Phorm is up and running on any exchange. BT are trying desperately to dig themselves out of "tens of thousands" of existing criminal offences. Can't see them adding more fuel by secretly running Phorm while this is going on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ursine,

Click view history to see the logs, there's little tabs with blocked addresses etc.

I did think it was odd that i stopped getting Phorm info after my call (that they hung up on) to customer services.

strange coincidence.. now where's my tinfoil hat I think i'm going to need it today

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm pretty sure I read that BT's new tests (which should be starting any time now?) would be based in Ealing and Croydon (which isn't the site of an RAS).

I've not heard of BT recruiting willing test subjects for the new trials so maybe they are more blind trials just setting cookies without swapping any OIX adverts?

Anybody here from the BT forums got more information?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To make it easier to monitor what is blocked by PG2 make sure you uncheck the "show allowed connections" box. That way you will only see the blocked items.

---------- Post added at 11:35 ---------- Previous post was at 11:24 ----------

I was just googling for news on Phorm to see how widely the new relevations have been publicised yet but while doing so I came across this interesting article drawing a comparison between GM foods and Phorm and I found it quite interesting. Apologies if its been posted already and I missed it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...pr/11/phorm.gm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I spoke to Aquiss's MD, about this, his reply.
"He has already raised his concerns about that exact point over 3 weeks ago, but yet Phorm have not been forthcoming with any information or even ackowledged registered post."

Again this doesn't show the transparency that Phorm shout they have maybe Simon from 80/20 could get some answers since this would be an infringement of my privacy since I am not a BT Broadband customer or Virgin when on Aquiss and Aquiss are not signed up to trial Phorm.

Another snippet seems VM are in the news for more underhanded work this time with BBC iplayer.
Anyway anyone want Neils email addy neil.berkett@virginmedia.co.uk if the mods feel the need to remove this then members wanting please PM and I will forward it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's a letter I've written to various MPs and peers at http://thesection.pwp.blueyonder.co....en_letter.html - it's a bit out of date as it was written on 4th April but feel free to use any of it you find useful.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well lets not forget that a blind trial setting or reading cookies not set by the websites your viewing is still unlawful..... without consent.

sure we might chose to ignore it, but if its a site your visiting then it might be said that you are authorising that site to use your PC ram/HD to store a cookie.

if BT/Vm do start blind trials to see if their cookies are working right as you browse to were ever, the sites cookie is fine, the blind trials is not as you didnt say they can store or read a cookie from them.

unless OC you went to their website were it got placed, in which case that becomes as the other sites you visit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ceedee

Thanks for the reassurance and the welcome.
Around 9 am this morning I was trying to access the BT beta forum and all access was blocked by Phorm hits on PG2 also the accessing the Cable forum but Phorm hits only showed when I looked at this thread, on checking PG's history logs it shows that ( Error 9.07 am) 10.12.01 am was the last hits from Phorm .
I then uninstalled the dephormation plugin and have since seen no more Phorm hits onPG2.:)



Again my appologies I have been reading the PG logs the wrong way round ( I did say I wasn't very techie ), and the last Phorm hit showing on the PG logs is 10.12.01 am this morning.

Whats the smiley for looking sheepish

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok there seems to be a problem with the petition I started a few days ago. I can pull up the actual petition page but when I click on view signatures I get a 500 server error no matter which browser I use. This has lasted a few hours now. Could someone else try it for me please. Much appreciation in advance.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

theres something iffy about it, http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...cgi?BTRipa&101
is kind of working but its real slow and the other pages are failing

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The page loaded very slowly has 228 signatures

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for that popper. I will keep an eye on it. Having spent the last few minutes trying to see the signatures of other petitions too the whole site is going at a crawl so maybe it isn't time for the tin foil hats and binoculars to search for black helicopters after all LOL

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

timeouts in both FF and IE for the site http://www.petitiononline.com/BTRipa/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The same here,
timeouts in both FF and IE for the site http://www.petitiononline.com/BTRipa/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks people. So far it seems I was maybe a bit too paranoid. I am now having problems with the entire site so will keep an eye on it and see if problems with my petition linger even when the rest of the site reverts back to normal.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Getting the word out onto the street.

I've e-mailed PinkNews, Gaydar Nation and Stonewall with a brief summary, focusing on the privacy threat.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After asking the Home Office what "the official Home Office stance is on the
provision under RIPA for both parties in the conversation giving consent to be
intercepted?". I have recieved a reply telling me

"The matters you have raised are the responsibility of Department for
Business Enterprise & Regulatory Reform."

And they have forwarded my e-mail. So much for RIPA being the responsibility of the Home Office?

A confused and a bit angry Simon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My reply to the Home Office.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is the general pass the book to someone else and hope th epublic get fed up and stop asking.
Best we can all do if we are asked who will we be voting for in May elections. I will be saying the ones that are willing to stand against phorm and our freedom to choose if we wish to conphorm or not. Mainly those willing to fight thr rights of every person to not be spied upon over the internet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It makes you wonder who these clowns are accountable to.
Is this issue really such a hot spud that nobody wants to deal with it?
Maybe they're hoping that we'll eventually quiet down, turn around, drop our trollies, bend over and accept HMG's royal shaft once again.

Too many vested interests I'll bet...and they say corruption is a problem elsewhere in the world.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Everytime i load page 213 of this thread (the first page where Ravenheart noticed blocks in PG) I get Phorm IP blocks in PG too. This happens wether I've got Dephormation enabled or disabled.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the info Shin Gouki, I've never seen it go off before and of course the alarm bells started ringing. I'll head back to the original page and see what happens.

ty again :)

Edit: On going back to page 213 I get the same results it fires up PeerGuardian with Phorm results.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Strange. I get nothing and I have 17 lists loaded in PG2.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was wrong.

It's not the links because I've tried posting them on this page and i get no blocks then.

Is there something hidden on page 213? :shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

since installing PG2 all I've ever done is click the update button on it every day. it's showing I have 2 lists

spy and ads are the two listed in the list manager section.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe your lists can't be up to date or you are'nt using the same lists we are.

Put these into your permanent blocklist then visit page 213.
88.208.250.66 88.208.250.85

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nothing to do with the fact that the photograph about half-way down that page is linked directly to Phorm's web site is it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes there are 2 images in a quote by popper - a phorm logo and a Hugo Drayton photo - both from the phorm domain

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here's the picture again, see if it sets things off:

http://www.phorm.com/images/exec_team/drayton.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah that's it.

Should have clicked Allow HTTP really should'nt I? :o:

Sorry i did'nt get much kip last night. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:woot:

It's official, I am a God :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

aye the pic sets it off again

---------- Post added at 16:11 ---------- Previous post was at 16:10 ----------

:nworthy::nworthy:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would'nt go that far mate.

The only reason you figured it out before me is because i had a moment of dumbness due to lack of sleep. :p:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

meh what an anticlimax.

I finally take the opportunity to get some hard earned sleep today and the phorm hits the fan?

Evening everyone.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Evening alexander. Welcome back to the fray :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

(From todays Reg)

So, that's cleared that up then.



(VM - you still "waiting and seeing" then? Don't tell me you are you still looking at clambering into bed with these clowns?)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT saying their lawyers said the trials were legal simply does not got them off the hook. Their lawyers were wrong and BT are the liable parties. Lets not forget, lawyers are wrong 50% of the time (in any legal case 1 side always loses).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello again gentlemen.

With regard to the pictures from the Phorm website that are creating problems with those running PG2 ( thanks Pheonix labs, still no working version for us Vista users I note ) may I suggest that you copy the pictures and rehost them on a free picture host such as Imageshack or better still my friend's hosting site which is not advertising driven and is both capable of large traffic and advertisement free. http://www.b3ta.cr3ation.co.uk/
This will solve both the problem of setting off PG2 and the fact that it is not good form to hotlink to pictures on 3rd party sites as issues of bandwidth can arise.

With regards to Simon Hickling and the advice given to Phorm by the home office I don't recall the Home office memo being posted in this thread before and if it has I apologise but the conclusions by the Home Office given to Phorm are public record and have been reproduced here.

http://cryptome.org/ho-phorm.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's this?

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

It's one of these upside down

[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]


Ah - the old ones are always the best

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hehehehe made me laugh ;)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I said to someone earlier that the Phorm share price graph should be accompanied by the death sound from Pacman :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That last pic is like my batting average - going down! Here's hoping what happened to me happens to Phorm...

I got dropped

:)

---------- Post added at 17:39 ---------- Previous post was at 17:37 ----------

Sounds like a great idea for a Flash animation :) Any takers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm considering it if I have time. Maybe a gif without sound first and then a flash animation with sound. I have a portrait commission to phinish ( haha, I'm leaving this unintended typo in, I must be brainwashed ) first as a memorial tribute so I'd like to get that completed before I do anything else today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I did a really crap wmv the other day, the image quality is awful.

www.brumjo.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Phorm1.wmv

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://tinyurl.com/2wtg5a/Phorm/pacman.jpg

"Pacman and the cookie quest"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Haha. After a particularly stressful day you have cheered me up no end.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The seasons only just started, plenty of time to improve - good luck :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My email to emma.sanderson@bt.com :

Hello Emma,

I was wondering what BT plans to do with regards to the illegal trials of the Phorm technology in 2006/2007?

Given that the press have reported the number of participants involved in 2007 could have been as high as 108 000 people how do you intend to defend millions of violations of the following laws:

European Convention on Human Rights
Human Rights Act
Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act
Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations
Computer Misuse Act
Fraud Act
Torts (Interference with Goods) Act
Data Protection Act
Copyright, Designs and Patents Act
Council of Europe's Convention on Cybercrime

It would be useful to have a statement from you for my dissertation which you should be proud to know is a critical evaluation of the BT PLC trials of Phorm's technology in 2006/2007 based on an analysis of the above laws and regulations.

Sincerely,

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sticking to umpiring this season. Mind you that's a bit risky these days as well - just ask Brian Jerling!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fantastic Alexander.

I don't propose that you will see a favourable response but keeping the pressure up this way is a must.

I'd also suggest that you up your personal security and get a Geiger counter. I don't want to read that the Russians got you ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi there,

I'm the author of Dephormation... I'm going to be looking for a new home shortly. My VM contract terminates 20 April so no more vm.d.g ... Can I join you lot instead? :)

Regards the Dephormation alert you see if images are embedded in cable forum from the Phorm site, that's by design. Because you've got links in your page to a Phorm/OIX/Webwise domain, the add on gives you an alert.

I read Simon's posts regarding the Home Office with interest. After the Police refused to investigate a RIPA complaint, I've been trying to get a reply out of the Home Office for the last few days. I phoned up today, and got bluffed off... they told me that the team concerned don't have a telephone number and only accept complaints by email. I haven't had a reply.

See http://security.homeoffice.gov.uk/ripa/about-ripa/

Similarly ICO, no reply to any email I've sent.

I'm also following the Earl of Northesks question to the Government that was supposedly to be answered by MoJ/DfBERR. That's almost two weeks overdue now for a reply.

My MP has also asked the DfBERR for an explanation, and also had no reply.

I've more or less run out of people to complain to now. And had no explanation from anyone.

Pete.
http://www.dephormation.org.uk


[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had a written reply from my MP a few days ago saying he had written to John Hutton, the Business Secretary. i.e. the same department, passing on my concerns.

So same message as Home Office from a Labour MP.

I don't know if they are trying to deflect this by dealing with the advertising bit rather than the privacy bit?

This department is responsible for regulatory reform though so I don't know if that has a bearing.

I don't expect to hear anything until after the local elections.

(I did ask him to raise the BT/RIPA issue with the Home Office, so maybe that's what the HO told my MP to do).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Pete :welcome:

First of can I thank you for the Dephormation Firefox add-on. Also many thanks for clarifying the issue I had earlier this morning, having not seen it activate before I started thinking the worst.

I'm sure you'll be more than welcome here on CF.

Thanks again for your work :)

Best wishes

Joanne

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent.

I've been listening to Clash, I Fought the Law (and the Law won) (live) lately, on nice and loud.

Always brings a smile to my face when I'm losing motivation. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Pete and welcome to CF.

I'm a new member here myself but I'm sure you will be welcomed with the same friendliness they seems to be offered to all new members with a vested interest in the Phorm privacy issue ( I think that would be the 99% of the UK NOT trying to make a buck from this ).


Thanks for the great work with the Dephormation addon. It's exactly the sort of thing we need and hopefully if we can ever get an answer out of Phorm regarding their OIX partners you and others could work towards an addon that warns the user they are entering into data transaction with a server who is agreeing to share our browsing habits with Phorm.

I think there is an inevitability that we will all run out of people to complain to. I see it that all we can do is refuse to accept the responses and continue to complain, rewording the complaints with any relevant information so that somebody will have no choice but to take note.

Good to see you here. I'm personally of the opinion that CF will be the best place for people to gather for an exchange of information that might finally lead to us being able to mount a legal challenge as this technology becomes more insidious.

Regards

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have today sent an email to Simon Watkins the email is quoted below.

Hi Pete and welcome I also am a migration from VM to Aquiss.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have tried to ask a clear and unequivocal question by emailing the folk at commsdata@homeoffice.gsi.gov.uk - that is:

"Between 23 September and 6 October 2006 and again in June 2007, BT trialled Phorm, a technology for intercepting, reading and analysing private Internet communications. At no time was consent sought from or granted by either the tens of thousands of users whose traffic was intercepted or the owners of the websites which they accessed.

Please tell me whether you intend to instigate criminal proceedings against BT and named individuals such as Emma Sanderson for breaching the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000."

I'm not optimistic that they will answer this, but if they do I will let the board know.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Guys, over on badphorm we've spotted this which you might find interesting:

http://www.how-do.co.uk/north-west-m...-200804142351/

"Hugo Drayton, the CEO of digital advertising company Phorm, Phorm has initially populated the OIX with data gathered from BT, Virgin and Carphone Warehouse on users’ internet browsing habits."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Found another article published today regarding how long companies should retain our data:

http://www.adotas.com/2008/04/phorm-...consumer-info/

:rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have posted letters off to a few places not going to say where or who or why incase some phorm guys jump on and use there strategic partnerships to skew it up ;).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What data gathered from Virgin Media users?

---------- Post added at 20:15 ---------- Previous post was at 20:13 ----------

Can anyone get to this meeting? It sounds as though it could be much, much more interesting than the meeting in London.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for that.

I only became aware of that meeting today and as a Manchester businessman I enquired to the possibility of tickets. I've not had a reply but there now appears to be a resale of standard tickets at £41 and if I can get assurances I can record the meeting I'll try and get there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

When I tried (then dumped) vista I got this version of PG2 working;

http://phrosty.phoenixlabs.org/pg2-rc1/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cheers. I'll give it a go. When I last tried I was on my Vista 64 machine. I'm also running two machines with Vista 32 Ultimate including my main machine so I shall see if I get results with this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just printed a couple of letters, which I'll be posting tomorrow, hopefully we'll get a good reply from both organisations ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Err, what? Where did they get this data from. Does this mean they ran trials with Virgin and CPW and kept them better hidden than BT managed, or did those two ISP's just hand over data without asking?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just read a couple of the links posted recently.

From here http://www.adotas.com/2008/04/phorm-...consumer-info/ they say:

and yet this link http://www.how-do.co.uk/north-west-m...-200804142351/ says:

Is it me, or are those statements just totally contradictory? You can't "populate" anything with that data which you don't (allegedly) retain surely?

I tend to hope that the second link is just a misunderstanding on the page author's part but given the way this phiasco has unfolded I do wonder.

Phorm are telling whoever they speak to what they think that person/organisation/group wants to hear. Maybe they're planning to stand for election somewhere :rolleyes:

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reflecting on yesterday's particularly torrid episode on Cable Forum, there's one thing that strikes me as being rather sad about the discussion and that is that Simon Davies, MD of 80/20 Thinking and campaigner at Privacy International, was crossing swords with the very people whose values are so very much like those that he has so vociferously and effectively delivered for a good part of his adult life.

There is a classic story about the late great George Best who was encountered one day by a hotel waiter: George was looking worse for wear in a bed strewn with cash, a voluptuous blond and a sidestand of champagne. The waiter, remembering the only thing that mattered to him which was George's footballing genius, asked George "Where did it all go wrong Mr Best?"

George was wealthy, successful and used to recount the story himself for comedic purposes, but he possibly missed the inherent pathos . In the eyes of his fans, George's new life had cost him the very thing that made him what he was. Their hero.

As tomorrow's meeting in which Simon will sit with his client, Phorm Ltd, who represent the greatest threat to online privacy in the UK for years, I offer this question:

Where did it all go wrong Simon?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Dave, with regard to the statement on how do regarding the population of OIX I have left a message ( in administration right now ) asking them to cite references for this information or for them to amend the post to read correctly.

I am of the opinion that this is not statement of fact but rather a misconception by the author and therefore an erroneous comment.


Craig

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm Tells FTC it Endorses 'No Retention' of Consumer Data for the Sake of Behavioral Advertising

Ye Gods . . .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think someone on this forum has already raised the question of Webwise as a search engine keyword - if so, I'm sorry for losing track - if not, it's mentioned on BadPhorm:

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi....php?3822.last

Can a technical person advise whether Google would pick up the text in my signature - if so, may I suggest adopting this, or similar wording in peoples' signatures - this kills two birds with one stone:

1. It deprives the ISPs of their "implied consent" defence to criminal liability (this rationale will make sense to those who have been following the legal debate)
2. it is an effortless and legitimate way of repeating the term "Webwise" in a context that alerts the reader to its real nature to help get it picked up by search engines

I would also like to link, if it's OK Portly Giraffe, to InPhormationDesk.

I realise everyone likes to do their own thing, so please feel free to personalise it - but I'm just thinking that if I'm not the only one who uses this disclaimer, it might carry more weight

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My reply from Emma Sanderson:

Mr Hanff

Thank you for your email and of course I am disappointed to hear about the proposed subject of your dissertation.

As you know BT has confirmed that we conducted two small scale technical tests of a prototype advertising platform, one during September - October 2006 and the other in June 2007. In each instance, a small number of customers on one internet exchange (they were two different internet exchanges) were randomly selected for the test and were completely anonymous. Absolutely no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during this test. BT has no way of knowing - because the trial was completely anonymous - which customers were part of the test. The purpose of the tests was to evaluate the functional and technical performance of the platform and they were transparent to all but a very small number of customers. It is important for BT to ensure that before any new technologies are deployed, they are robust and fit for purpose. BT took legal advice at the time, both BT and Phorm have obtained extensive legal and other external advice on Webwise functionality over the last two years.

BT has also said that we expect to begin technical trials of the BT Webwise service in the coming weeks. We will be inviting around 10,000 BT broadband customers to take part in the trial. The trial invitation will be presented through a special web page that will appear when those customers start a web browsing session. At this point, those customers invited can choose to switch on BT Webwise, choose not to take part or to find out more information. Customers choosing not to take part will not have their browsing information mirrored or profiled, and no information will go to the BT managed profiler. No information is gathered, and therefore no information is forwarded to Phorm. Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment. The www.bt.com/webwise site also contains detailed information on the service and a one-click option to switch the service off, which can be activated at any point during the trial. Alternatively customers can block the www.webwise.net domain. The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly. As you may have seen, BT has also confirmed publicly that in parallel with the trial, we are already developing a solution for customers that do not want the service - that removes the need for 'opt-out' cookies altogether.

I should also stress that prior to the announcement BT thoroughly researched Webwise and was encouraged by the very positive consumer response to the service.

Clearly our customer's privacy is extremely important to us. Information on users’ browsing is completely anonymous. The system doesn't store personally identifiable information, doesn't store URLs, IP addresses or retain browsing histories and the raw data used is deleted in real time - by the time the page loads. Webwise does not scan webmail pages so our customers emails on Gmail, Yahoo mail or Hotmail are not scanned. Secure pages like banking websites and web forms like any online registration or sign-up forms are not scanned. No personal information often contained in form fields is therefore ever captured by the system. No data is passed outside of BT's network. Webwise privacy standards have been verified by external auditor Ernst & Young and leading privacy advocate Simon Davies, MD of 80/20 Thinking, has also carried out a Privacy Impact Assessment on Webwise technology. Of course BT, and I am sure the same applies to TalkTalk and Virgin Media, have all completed appropriate due diligence on Phorm, we also understand that other ISPs both in and outside of the UK are currently talking to them.

BT is, of course, aware of the legal requirements regarding interception of communications under the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000. We consider that these steps will meet the legal requirements of RIPA and also ensure that customers are able to take a fully informed decision as to whether to take the service.

To summarise, our customer research shows that lots of people would be keen to see advertisements that are relevant to their interests, we are planning to trial the service shortly, BT customers may be invited to participate in the trial (via a webpage) but the choice as to whether or not they participate is entirely theirs. Furthermore BT is committing to providing it's customers with a choice as to whether they want this service - it will be optional.
Regards
Emma
(Emphasis added)

Note the bold paragraph I have highlighted. Interesting how she states the opt-in they are implementing will satisfy RIPA. It could easily be interpreted that the lack of the opt-in process for the trials failed to satisfy RIPA.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also from that link:

"It cannot know where the user has been"

Am I misreading it? If it doesnt know where you've been whats the point of it?

And how does that square with this from Badphorm:

"With almost shocking frankness, Virasb Vahidi the Chief Operating Officer of Phorm has told the New York Times that “We actually can see the entire Internet.”.

The article also says Phorm is boasting that it will collect the most complete information of all.

Mr Vahidi is quoted as saying “As you browse, we’re able to categorize all of your Internet actions”, seemingly at odds with Phorm's repeated statements that they only match data to pre-existing categories."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done, Alex.

"Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment."

So it's opt-out.

"Webwise does not scan webmail pages ... banking websites ... web forms"

I'm not technical, but I thought "Webwise" had to intercept everything first in order to decide whether it was something it was not going to "scan"

"Webwise privacy standards have been verified by external auditor Ernst & Young and leading privacy advocate Simon Davies, MD of 80/20 Thinking," [this is how I read it first time through. So yes, they are using him.]

"our customer research shows that lots of people would be keen to see advertisements that are relevant to their interests"

If BT had conducted a Privacy Impact Assessment then this research would be made available to stakeholders. But they're not, and we have no idea what questions BT asked.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We will not invade Poland. The rest is history.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander,

That reply from BT looks like it could have been written by Phorm themselves, it's interesting they throw the old Ernst & Young (who assessed it for US law) and Simon Davies into the mix. Do they not realise how things have moved on since those early days?

As usual it's just spin.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Customers who opt out will not come into contact with any Phorm-managed equipment."

I cannot rember the article off the top of my head, but I am sure I read somewhere (possibly El Reg) that Phorm will 'gift' the equipment to the ISP in order to get round various laws etc.

If this is the case then BT's statement (whilst mealy-mouthed to ridiculous levels) could be seen as technically correct.

If it is such a good proposition for 'us' as customers why can they not just respond to the myriad questions that have been raised?
The silence would indicate because they cannot respond sufficiently well to prove their case and therefore I cannot accept what they say (or rather don't say)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was just thinking the same. They don't actually say that opted-out people will not be subject to the interception.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah, that version does work on Vista x86 although sometimes it dies when loading the lists at startup.

In which case creat the .bat file below to re-start it (obviously amend "C:\Program Files\PeerGuardian2" if you have installed it elsewhere:

cls

tskill pg2
del /Q "C:\Program Files\PeerGuardian2\lists"
del /Q "C:\Program Files\PeerGuardian2\cache.p2b"
del /Q "C:\Program Files\PeerGuardian2\history.db"
"C:\Program Files\PeerGuardian2\pg2.exe"

cls

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Alexander, I disagree with you. No-where in that letter does it say BT will operate an opt-in or opt-out system. What it says is: In other words, three choices - opt in, opt out or find out more.

Now, you tell me exactly where in that letter "she states the opt-in they are implementing".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its pretty obvious she is referring to the "switch on" part. I never said her interpretation of RIPA was correct, merely pointing out that the consent details she offers are clearly the difference between the trials and the planned implementation. Which although she never stated, can be read to mean the trials were not compliant.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 21:35 ---------- Previous post was at 21:31 ----------

Reply to Emma:

Hello Emma,

Just to let you know, it is not a proposed subject for my dissertation, it is almost complete and will be published on the internet within the next 12 hours as there has been significant interest in it. There is quite a heavy publicity campaign to launch the paper into the public domain as well, so you might want to check Digg in the morning and read the paper for yourself.

It would be rhetoric to address all the points in your reply as they are already covered in the paper.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All.
I'm actually a BT customer but their threads have all but died so I hope you won't mind if I post here occasionally if/when I see something which might be of interest.
Viz: I Googled "Webwise" and this URL http://www.webwise.com/ only shows BT and Talk Talk as Webwise users. No mention of VM. Interesting? Or have I made a boo-boo on my first post.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting, would that be two of the three ISP's going for a bypass of Phorm supplied equipment or am I just naive?

"Clearly our customer's privacy is extremely important to us."

So BT made annual pre-tax profits to £2.5bn in 2007 and I have seen quoted profits of circa 85M per annum for their tie-up with Phorm. So for (my math may be wrong) a third of one percent they are willing to destroy their image. Good call!

Yes, clearly! How could I have been so foolish - now I see the light. All hail Phorm, who needs privacy after all. :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome:to the forum Bobcat

AYe we noticed the VM logo had vanished from the webwise site, it certainly seemed odd at the time.

But a few statements from VM since then seem to suggest they're still undecided on the whole Phorm thing.