Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In a similar vein:

http://www.mediapost.com/publication...&art_aid=87797

They've asked for a response by 8th Aug - That's this Friday!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Also BT's CEO for bringing the company name into shame. Noticed the finanace bloke at BT bought £100,000 shares in BT suppose he was trying to shure up the price now it is below 175p

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Flo-

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/1/ceb30eee-5...077b07658.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Glad to see I'm not the only one who's disgusted by the trend these days in the UK to follow the US lead on all matters to do with justice and freedom. They're hardly a shining example, but civil rights in the US are beginning to make the UK look like the People's Republic of China.
The overall impression left by the UK government's action (or rather, inaction) on protecting our privacy and civil rights is that they are a bunch of cringing, cowardly, money-grabbing criminals who wait to see what the big boy on the block does before judging what they can get away with imposing on us. The sooner they're booted out, the better for all of us (and that's from someone who misguidedly voted for them in 1997).
Apologies to the mods for this off-topic rant.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't subscribe to that one so cannot see anything.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well it did occur to me that there a whole host of legitimate topics related to Phorm/Webwise, that could have their own threads on BT Beta forums. Just needs people to start them -not mentioning Webwise of course, but using appropriate text hyperlinks to useful sites like inphormation desk or the phorm demo leaflets etc.

Closing down the BT Beta forum thread on copyright smacks of desperation to me. Probably an encouraging sign though when you think about it. Obviously a topic that needs resurrecting - now where's my thesaurus, must look up "copyright" and see how many synonyms I can find...

I see they have removed another thread about a delayed product launch that someone (not me) started in the Innovations forum, in response to Gavin Patterson's prediction that trials of Webwise would start in 2weeks. That one hasn't just been locked, it's been removed.

Sounds like the hatchets are out. Reinforcements needed.

If you have a BT account (phone line or Broadband or BT Vision or any of their other products) then do feel free to pop over to BT Beta forums, register using your BT account number, and suggest new topics for discussion. Be aware that your real name initially will appear but you can then edit it in your personal details to anything you like.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's strange... neither do I. Anyway:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

beware my browser is showing this as page 666 in this thread

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

copyright FT, though this is an extract from the article not the entire thing. You should get the jist.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

thanks all to add to that BT have sent out threats to pensioners. The threat is if BT go out of business there will n ot be enough to pay the pensioners so would have their private pensions reduced by 3/4 as they would have to sell it off to the insurance..

If this happens BT has failed due to not listening to cusatomers, managment paying themsleves too high a wage board directors who were just simple yes men letting BT do as it pleased, after all when one guy gets a pay rise over £100,000 they are not doing their job when a MP gets £60,000 for just 9 meetings it isnt correct....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Certainly does. "Engine-room full up to boilers".
Shame. I thought that was an interesting thread too... The suspense was killing me, and the laughter left my sides in agony.

So now you're barely allowed to talk to BT about public announcements made by a BT Director, in front of the BT Chairman, BT Shareholders, and Press at a BT AGM?

:scratch:

That's a healthy state of affairs is it not?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i can see HM Gov allowing BT to go bust, the same as they couldn't allow northen rock to go bust.

that just sounds like BT trying to scare people so they can raid the pension piggy bank and say we warned you, rather than putting their house in order dumping phorm and doing some proper investment

shame on you BT, i hope a few pensioners put in a claim for distress etc caused by that announcement

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to let you guys know that I have been banned from the BT Beta forums, so if anyone is going to keep that forum Webwise thread going you will need to get busy because I won't be there until further notice. If anyone with a BT account wants to PM me and get details of the moderation team address or anything I'll happily comply.

I've decided also to pull out of the BT peer support Usenet internal BT newsgroups as a protest which will be sad, as I have posted there for years.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

R Jones-

There is no practical way they can prevent you from posting. You don't need a BT account in order to sign up to the forum, and if they ban you by IP, you can always use a proxy.

---------- Post added at 16:50 ---------- Previous post was at 16:49 ----------

What was the stated reason for banning you?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Was you banned for this

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know! :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Robert no doubt you were told as I was that it their forum is gagging freedom of speech a healthy thing for the BT moderators to be getting involved with but then again it is Phorm we are talking about here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

.....and on that note..... ;)

I'm going to remind everybody that dragging problems encountered in one online forum into another online forum is generaly considered extremely bad Phorm.

If you have a problem with any other site then please take it up with the site's owners, don't bring those problems here.

Thank you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Rob M

Back on topic it is nice to see Congress getting tough on the data pimping now we just need our government to get of their backsides and notice..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

but they all on a summer break just like the kids are oh could they be one of the same :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

no the school kids have more morals and respect for others

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Webwise-wise? Three "Ws" - WWW...

I like that Webwise has two "Ws".

If implemented, Webwise certainly takes something away from the internet as we know it. :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally agree with your comment although I would like to try and link a tiny bit of relevance to the previous discussion.

Once a system is put in place that removes peoples privacy, another step is to control what people see and do. The big brother effect of knowing all about another persons intimate life gives that big brother person, or the organisation, knowledge and power. The abuse of this power can and very often does lead to police state like control on peoples lives within that particular society.

Censorship prevails and is used willingly to protect the already corrupt.

Maybe some phormafied ISP's are showing the first signs of this particular mindset. The censorship of what people can say or do (legally) is not conducive to a free society. Perhaps the abuse of power has already begun ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suggest more people sign up to the BT thread right now, as I have a hunch they might go nuclear and start banning more people and stop new accounts being created.

It would be handy to have a couple of backup accounts ready.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

see if i get banned for my last post?

anyway back to topic

BT network seem strange at the moment, routes which have not changed for several weeks now seem on the move as though load balancing has been introduced, it used to be a single route, now you get one of three routes not sure if on a round robin basis or if route you get is based on traffic levels,

not sure if it is relevant but i will keep an eye on it

http, https and ping (ICMP) traffic all still follow same route so does not look like phorm is in yet

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would this be of any relevance to the Phorm issue?

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/19...bandwidth.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just discovered another handy little forum:

http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/postlist...&Board=general

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Me too. :)

BT Business Support Forums : Webhost

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:09 ----------

Its hard to know at present.

If Phorm ever does launch, and uses the madcap technology described in Richard Claytons analysis, there is so much tampering & redirection going on I'm sure it won't be hard to detect with a rubber chicken, never mind a clever analysis package :D

You've got so many eyes looking at Phorm at the moment, even if they change the implementation model, it will get torn to shreds the moment its switched on :)

Once bitten, twice shy.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ooohh.. very nice work, Pete!

---------- Post added at 22:29 ---------- Previous post was at 22:26 ----------

Bookmarked them on the nodpi wiki:

http://nodpi.wikispaces.com/Discussion

---------- Post added at 22:32 ---------- Previous post was at 22:29 ----------

You have a reply already, Pete - from an alleged BT employee, no less.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Update, actually a very astute reply!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's a great reply. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks like the same forum has already had some 'feedback' from other customers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hadn't found this forum before
http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/s...earchid=254377
for links to the phorm threads.
Interesting comment about Hugo Drayton is the thread at
http://www.the-scream.co.uk/forums/s...ighlight=phorm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just added my two penneth there, see if steph bans me, only quoted facts about weblies and corrected a few statements by the mods over there, ooops is that a cat i see escaping from a bag, oh dear!!!!

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Be aware, chaps; as with so many things BT-wise, this site appears to be hosted in the good ol' US of A.

http://private.dnsstuff.com/tools/ip...208.74.204.128

http://www.networksolutions.com/whoi...in=lithium.com

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why didn't Drayton phorm this service before joining Phorm. Could have saved him some grief...
"The mists are clearing, I see trouble in my crystal ball. And a pop up ad, hey, that's never happened before?!"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Comments about "another forum" fully taken on board. I certainly don't want to discuss that here. There is enough of a stink already going on about it over on Beta - thanks guys!

BUT ... :erm:

there is a related issue or two that may be relevant.

It occurs to me to wonder on what basis such a banning works. It has relevance when we think about the way Webwise will work.

By IP address? No good - BT Residential customers have dynamic IP addresses so change your IP and you are someone else.

Maybe they do it by BT account number - which they ask you for (but don't actually "require" when you sign up for BT forums - well that works for BT Forums (and I would guess was how a backup identity or two that I created earlier, but had only used once, as a test, were automatically banned along with my main one, when the ban came). But that doesn't work for Webwise either because the cookies won't contain that info.

By phone line? (BT Broadband accounts authenticate nowadays on CLI - caller line identity) But then there is no way of distinguishing who you are dealing with at the other end of that line. Which brings us right back to the cat who opts everyone in the home network to Webwise. (Sorry in advance to all cat lovers - no cats were harmed in the making of this post). Phorm have created such a privacy revolution with their boast that they don't know who you are, that they are stuck with not recognising a cat when they see one.

The Webwise cat who can change someone's T&C's.
The cat with legal powers.
McCavity the Webwise cat who isn't there.
Maybe I should research my T S Eliott.
I think that cat has a future in the campaign.
BT the company that enters into contracts with cats.
"Darling, the cat has signed us up to Webwise, and deleted all the holiday photos, and is it true I have to paint our lovely home black to match the new HomeHub? I did try to get the photos back from Digital Vault but I can't log in to Digital Vault today."
Gentle ridicule can be very effective.

The next BT survey perhaps could investigate how many cats prefer their owners to use Webwise, in fact preferred it so much that they signed them up for it because Phorm offered them a years supply of Caesar.
Can cats go to court?
Can a cat be sued for breach of contract?

Finally - BT have managed to make one of my predictions come true. I said that Webwise would simply result in more people surfing anonymously and using encryption. Now for the first time in my life I am considering the use of web proxies and a greater use of alias identities than I ever used to. This has to be a BAD thiing. I prefer to post and surf as ME except in rare situations. But now I will be thinking much more about anonymity and subterfuge and that can't really be healthy. I don't like it. But my devious, deceitful, bone-headed ISP and the powers-that-be who are somehow collaborating with them, have forced me to it.

So back to my main point. Computer use is much more complicated than Phorm seem to realise. It isn't one IP address, one computer. Most homes now have networks behind the router. Most homes are now using wireless, and many homes contain a variety of adults. BT Fon, Openzone, and a variety of other wireless hotspots exist. Phorm cannot cope with these. It can't cope with them as far as identifying people goes (hence issues around temporary black/whitelisting of IP addresses after someone opts out of Webwise) - and it can't cope with them from a security point of view - the various users of a given IP address who are either opted-in or not opted-in, ignorant or knowlegeable about Webwise, including McCavity the Webwise cat, customers of the same ISP or just piggy backing on someone elses connection (legally) - from what I have read so far (and IANAT - I Am Not A Techie) they are going to be exposed to a security and privacy nightmare. And BT don't seem to care one hoot.

Over on the BT business forums the mods are referring people to the BT Webwise FAQ. That is the one that is full of errors, inconsistencies, and hasn't been updated since early April of this year despite the various legal developments since then and the many many unanswered questions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

UK questioned on online ad system

The UK government has until the end of August to respond to a letter from the European Union about the controversial online ad system Phorm.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7542810.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure if anyone spotted this but well here goes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7542810.stm

LOL phormwatch just beat me to it if i hadn't been posting it on BT beta first :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe this is their main problem (philosophically). Back in previous incarnations, they were dealing direct with the user of the PC. They used impenetrable EULAs to get consent for their *wares. If people didn't each have a separate account on the PC they would all be tracked - this has been mentioned wrt Phorm.

So it would seem that having been "found out" they have moved to the ISP level, but still use the same thought processes as though they had forced the impenetrable EULA on someone, not thinking about multiple computers sharing a connection, in the same way they dismiss the idea of several people sharing a logon.

I wonder if Openzone will track anyway after accepting their T&Cs? Or if the informed consent will include warnings that if you're a Fon user you may be profiled when you use someone else's connection? The more we discuss this the more gaping holes there seem to be in their thinking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

pwned, Flo. ;)

---------- Post added at 10:06 ---------- Previous post was at 10:03 ----------

If you can get me a copy of the letter to the pensioners, I think I know of a few people who might be very interested in seeing it...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A shame there's no option to 'Have your Say' for this article.

The section that reads
It seems to give BT the green light to roll out Phorm and argue the toss later (and I can guess how that will go).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget that in order for these agencies to be able to jump up and down they need to have BT go ahead with the (new) trial. BT must be itting themselves

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the Information Comissioner pretty much has his hands tied now. Although I feel he should have taken action against the initial trials, since he hasn't, he has no power at the moment to proactively prevent practices being implemented which may lead to breaches. He has to wait for the roll-out before ruling again.

This I think was the subject of a review of his powers. I think there was some talk of bringing the ICO in line with the FSA, who have the power to fine financial institutions who simply put their customers data at risk. A bank was fined substantially after a laptop was stolen from an employees house. The bank can't be responsible for burlaries but they should have either encrypted the hard drive or prevented employees taking work home.

I'd say don't be too hard on Richard Thomas. Politics is a hard game and we need all the allies we can get.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a few jumbled thoughts while I take break from plumbing the bathroom (any excuse ;) )

to Virgin

If you implement Phorm I shall cancel my account. No further monies will be paid as it is my opinion YOU have broken the terms of our agreement.

If I were to remain a customer this would mean that YOU have made me party to an illegal act, which in itself is a crime.

Lawyers please

Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh deep joy. Hope Emma has seen it. I've digged it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How difficult is it to say, "we were spying on everything you did while you were online, and we're selling that private information to other companies"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have posted on beta BT just to be sure..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The phrases "rock" and "hard place" come to mind. BT's ship of commerce trapped between The Scylla of illegality and the Charybdis of commercial collapse.

Or is it more a case of tying Ian Livingstone or Gavin Patterson to the mast with cotton wool in his ears so they can't hear the siren calls of Phorm?

There is a good collection building up of "memorable phrases" and "interesting contradictions" that need putting side by side.

We can see the whole internet - we don't know where you've been

We don't store urls - we know you looked for a Canon camera last week

We respect privacy - we handed the BT Webwise helpdesk to Phorm in the USA

Transparent to end users - we do not have any agreement with Phorm

Town hall meeting to answer the critics - sorry the video is not available

We offer customers choice - the cat can change your T&C's and opt you in

We demand you respect our web page copyright - we don't feel it is reasonable to respect yours.

And so on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can I post this over on Bt forums R Jones?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What i don't understand is, if the ICO has let them off with the trials because it would be "difficult" to explain to their customers; how do they intend on explaining it to their entire customer base if it ever goes live?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hereby grant permission for any (future) post of mine here, to be quoted on Beta forums by a forum member from C/F. And you can quote that one too.

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 ----------

Well - they have a good read of the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (came into force in May) and then they think very hard and write a very very long Webwise invitation page, which fairly and fully describes the ups and downs of the product, so consumers can make in informed choice, then they work out how to deliver that page to customers, without illegally intercepting browsing and only when they can properly IDENTIFY that it is the account holder they are communicating with by displaying the interstitial page (displaying it only when their customers are logged in to either bt.com or their BTYahoo home pages, with their unique account username and password - and NOT while anyone on their home network using the same external IP address is casually browsing the internet) - so McCavity the cat doesn't get involved - probably also asking for an extra password confirmation like they do with every other change to someone's account Terms and conditions or personal information.

Then they develop an opting-in solution that means that the NOT-OPTED-IN customers do not have their traffic intercepted, mirrored, profiled, copied or in any way, and that their traffic, their data packets coming along their broadband line do not contact any of the Phorm supplied DPI kit.

Then they work out a way of SEEKING (not inferring) the active informed consent of the entire world wide web's webmasters (several million) for the copying and exploitation of their intellectual content and the creation of forged cookies. Only those webmasters who actively GIVE that consent may have their sites profiled, copied, exploited or their domain names used in forged cookies, so that their competitors can pinch their traffic.

Then they get the all clear from guys and gals down at BT Retail legal department - absolutely rock solid - no possible problems with PECR, DPA, Fraud Act, MCA, criminal and civil copyright law etc. Because a big corporation like BT can't be seen to be breaking the law - oh no sir.

Then they make full disclosure to the ICO, and also make sure they have done due diligence by making sure the final PIA has been fully published and is available to the relevant authorities, not least the general public.

Then they launch their trials and publish the full results (Premium Browsing Mark II:Research Findings) along with their original research findings (Premium Browsing:Research Findings).

I reckon they can get all that done easily - maybe in shall we say "a couple of weeks"?

Gavin Patterson will no doubt have had all that clearly in his head at the AGM on July 16th, when he predicted the trials would be starting in that time frame.
After all - if he didn't - it was a very unwise thing to announce wasn't it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This may be a dumb question: how does anyone post on the BT forum. I tried and each time I move from one page to the next I have to log in again - anything to do with blocking 2o7.net from tracking me or the cookies in .bt.com domain when I am at beta.bt.com? For a major business, they have very poor internet security and I don't see why I should need to drop my security settings just because someone can't write scripts well.

Means that I was not able to post the following (maybe someone who can post there can ask the following for me):These questions have been asked so many times that they should be included within the official FAQ.

While on the subject, do the VM management have a system in place for making copyright claims?

A few months back I was given a phone number for TalkTalk to ask the same question - tried to phone many times but never had the number answered.

[BTW - after setting up a login, I did not have to put in account details for the login account to work]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Make of this what you will. I have no evidence of any authenticity.

Yesterday evening whilst posting a few flyers under car wipers in the
local Tesco's, a chap came up to me with the flyer in his hand.

He claimed to know many BT managers and hinted that he was one himself.

From what he said he clearly knew about webwise and did not like it, telling me the following :-

1) The trial is likely to launch during the early stages of the Olympics, in an attempt to avoid the News "Silly Season".

2) It is likely that if the trial starts, at least 2 very damaging BT documents will leak. One of which will be from a BT group company outside BT Retail.

As I say, no evidence, but the next few days will tell.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Or ... they can just rely on spin and take the inactivity by regulatory bodies and the Police as a sign that they can go ahead anyway.

They could leave the sign-up page as it is and hope that a sufficient number of customers see it as a brand new free fraud busting service from their ISP and don't look too closely at how exactly the "more relevant experience" is achieved.

After a few months you can quote the xx % sign up rate as proof positive that customers like interception and expand your system.

They could just ignore the T&C's on websites and create derivative works from your content with the added bonus that unless you sign up to OIX your audience will be sent to member sites at the first opportunity.

You could congratulate yourself on getting PeopleOnPage II running and head off to the bank wondering how you ever got away with it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

TBH I wouldn't think a BT Manager would be posting the Flyers.... but you never know. What were the Flyers for? BT Services? Anti-Phorm?

This makes sense, with the increased Internet traffic the Olympics will generate, and the attention of the Press elsewhere!!! Perfect time to try to bury a trial....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was putting the flyers under the wipers. I assume the chap had found it on his car.

Sorry, my original post was not clear.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well - we will wait with interest. Forewarned is forearmed.

Watching them watching us.
I've rather been hoping for some leaks.
I have also found the non-response of some of the BT people I have emailed (that I expect are furious about Phorm, and at least one of whom has left BT since) rather significant.
I don't mean the non-response of Emma Sanderson or Adam Liversage or the CEO Ian Livingstone, or Gavin (trials in 2 weeks) Patterson - I mean the non response of more interesting people who AREN'T responsible for Phorm.

Do the Register know about that?

Obviously we need an Olympian theme.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If this is true it's yet another example of being 'open and transparent' (BT's definition)! It reminds me of the time the government tried to "bury" bad news (and the resulting scandle!).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

lol no worries makes more sense now :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very interesting. Seems unlikely he was making it all up. He obviously had knowledge of the system and if he was pro phorm I can't see this being a good tactic for him. Like others have said "wait and see" but it certainly sounds plausible.

Well done Mark! :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"But the Information Commission ruled in May that no action would be taken against the telco due to the difficult nature of explaining to consumers what it was doing."

So................. Would it be OK not to pay my phone bill and expect just to carry on, on the basis that explaining why I haven't paid is just toooooooo complicated for their patronisedly tiny minds?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder if when they invented how to make the data flow they ever realised somone would come along to intercept the flow of data t spy on civilians using the internet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7541123.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does this read ok?

http://www.phillyn.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

my website

thanks
Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting reading - helps to explain why pop-ups started to disappear.

http://news.cnet.com/Pop-up%20purvey...j=news.1024.20

I know that it is a fine line when one uses semantics but what is the difference between showing a pop-up for the competition when visiting a site and waiting for the visitor to view the next site before offering the advertisement? In both cases the content of a site has been used to present ads for the competition to visitors at the earliest opportunity.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, Slight news update -

"UK to Respond to EU Soon Regarding Targeted Ad System"
Jeremy Kirk, IDG News Service.

From here -


http://www.pcworld.com/article/14947...ml?tk=rss_news

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, but the link to the Cable Forums might be a little more specific. Right now they aren't just sent to the CableForum front page and left wondering what to do next.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't forget TalkTalk. Just because they are going for an opt-in model does not mean that their customers don't need to be aware of what is happening.

TT have not yet worked out how to opt-in the websites.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

phormwatch , madslug

Thanks will alter the page

Phil

done it :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BBC has picked it up too: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7542810.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the plan they shown shows those not in still go through the system and they need to check the status of in or out so intercepting a none in user to see if they in or out with out the consent and then if out they send a invite out to you if you got no cookies one big loop for those who do not store cookies or even except them, the web will be broken and no surfing but the interception still happens, is that right with users who say NO?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

@ Mark 777.long time no see ,but we see you are very active, as long as people read the flyers our case will build momentum good work !:clap::clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They have been very vague about this so it is difficult to say. On the basis of the probably now changed plans published so far, then yes - web browsing breaks if you respond to a webwise invitation by opting-OUT, and THEN block the cookies - your browsing is at that point broken.

If you block cookies before receiving an invitation I think you will keep receiving the invitation ad nauseam until you respond to it.

If you don't block cookies then receive the invitation, and then opt-OUT then you go through the DPI kit as part of the trial, but SOME of your data is not passed to Phorm, and they do not build a profile on you and allocate a UID and advertising channel for you. (Notice - I did not say your traffic wasn't mirrored or copied or profiled!)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just in case anyone still doesn't know: Claria/Gator is now NebuAd. Gator is to NebuAd as 121media is to Phorm. Spyware..its in the genes!:shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Chariots of Phorm

Sorry :erm:

Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Baroness Miller has been asking some very good questions (spotted by felixcatuk over on Badphorm) House of Lords unanswered Questions for Written Answer
or here for a list of just Baroness Millers questions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

>http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

Whoah - I don't know what happened... maybe it's the news of the EU letter, but about 200 people signed up in one go in the past two or three days.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could it be that BT Business Customers were given some real facts instead of BT Spin?
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...post13328.html

The BT Forum Moderators have just locked another thread!
A real Ghetto, especially when it is BT Retail Customers who are mostly affected!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

She's good at asking the right questions isn't she?!
What a star!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

US Phormalike NebuAd have dumped their PR firm and some employees

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/06/nebuad_changes/

If only our politicians had a spine.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

MacCavity was just about to make an appearance. Never mind, he can make his debut here. The video of this poem is going to be released publicly "soon"

Macavity: The BT Cat - with apologies to T S Eliott

Macavity's a BT Cat: he's called the Hidden Paw -
For he's the master criminal who can defy the Law.
He's the bafflement of Newgate Street, the ICO's despair:
For when they reach the Webwise screen - Macavity's not there!

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
He's broken every Webwise law, he breaks the law of privacy.
His powers of interception would make a copper stare,
And when you reach the Webwise screen - Macavity's not there!
You may seek him in the log files, you may look up in the air -
But I tell you once and once again, Macavity's not there!

Mcavity's a Webwise cat, he's very tall and thin;
You would know him if you saw him, for his eyes are sunken in.
His brow is deeply lined with thought, his head is highly domed;
His coat is dusty from neglect, his whiskers are uncombed.
He sways his head from side to side, with movements like a snake;
And when you think he's half asleep, he's um.... er.. wide awake.

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
For he's a fiend in feline shape, a monster of depravity.
You may meet him on a keyboard, you may see him on the screen -
But when an opt-in's discovered, then Macavity's not there!

He's outwardly respectable. (He works for the BT Boss.)
And his footprints are not found in any file at Charing Cross.
And when the website's looted, or the PII is rifled,
Or when the data's missing, or a forum thread's been stifled,
Or the BT network's broken, and Webwise past repair -
Ay, there's the wonder of the thing! Macavity's not there!

And when the Home Office find a memo's gone astray,
Or the DBERR lose some answers or letters by the way,
There may be a packet of data in the profiler or on the stair -
But it's useless to investigate - Mcavity's not there!
And when the loss has been disclosed, the ICO say:
`It must have been Macavity!' - but he's a mile away.
You'll be sure to find him resting, or a-licking of his thumbs,
Or engaged in doing complicated anonymising sums.

Macavity, Macavity, there's no one like Macavity,
There never was a Cat of such deceitfulness and suavity.
He always has an alibi, and one or two to spare:
At whatever time the deed took place - MACAVITY WASN'T THERE!
And they say that all the Cats whose wicked deeds are widely known
(I might mention Sanderson, I might mention GavinP)
Are nothing more than agents for the Cat who'se not the norm,
Just controls their operations: the Ertugrul of Phorm!

Feel free to quote on any other forums but please attribute to me!
It's what Dephormation would call a derivative work, but I found it on the internet, and BT legal and Emma say I can do what I like with it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am on VM now and to their credit I can understand their bill. But when I was on BT I have to admit had I known that the ICO would have backed up my none payment due to my lack of understanding due to BT's complicated layout, I would have turned to them. :)

Perhaps the same person who designed the BT bill forms had input to the Phorm / Webwise design also.

Then again, maybe the BBC statement should have said:

But the Information Commission ruled in May that no action would be taken against the telco due to the difficult nature of the ICO understanding of what was going on, so they buried their heads in the sand and prayed in the general direction of Kent.

---------- Post added at 19:06 ---------- Previous post was at 18:54 ----------

Its so funny that Phorm are still using comments of Baroness Miller of Chilthorne Domer who was leading the debate in the House of Lords on data protection, June 12, 2008 on their website.

Still, I suppose they are desperate for some good press albeit out of date.

Baroness Miller clearly seems to think different about them nowadays.

Long live the InPhormed (Post June 12th) Baroness Miller of Chilthorne.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Excellent, Robert!

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

I wonder if that would get deleted over on the other place.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I added a comment about that to their blog. It's still awaiting moderation after many weeks.:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

McCavity Cat regrets his actions

http://www.rohkit.org.uk/images/omg%20webwise.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hypothetical or hypocritical says one thing but means another(my bold)
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=510&start=0

posted by Mark W 5/3/08

"Thanks for keeping this on-topic so far, this is just a note to say that I'm moderating this thread quite closely and I'll be deleting any off-topic posts, i.e anything that isn't a question about the BT Webwise service, to keep this thread useful.

Edit Ok I'm going to set up an second thread for general BT Webwise discussions and keep this one for the Q&A answers from Adam. I'm not stopping anyone from posting on this subject I'm trying to keep things on topic in this particular thread. I'll also edit the thread title to emphasise this".

Many apology's mods but unable to post there.;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to agree i keep coming here maybe one or twice a day and i find 2 or 3 new pages. Maybe oyu should have something liek you have done for tvboy havea thread that is locked and sticked for any important information.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's simply the mention on the BBC. In the early days I used to keep a spreadsheet of the petition growth, and we'd get more than 500 signatures a day whilst the BBC had a piece about Phorm on the Technology page. Otherwise we'd get far less.

Basically, there's still a lot of people out there who'd sign the petition if only they understood what BT/VM/TT were planning and knew there was a petition to sign.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought about creating a time series of signatories to the petition. Too late now, I guess.

You're probably right about the BBC, and the fact that there'd be more people willing to sign it if they knew about it. That's our job.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The fact that people are still signing the petitioin shows the word is getting around.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally impressive, logical, detailed, incisive questions. To be applauded. Hooray for the Baroness!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT make olympic effort to bury bad news on phorm / BT Webwise

:notme:

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some one is for the high jump (couldn't resist).

Another myth debunked, this time "Privacy Enhancing Technology".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

16,508 - numbers going up every hour

Interesting that so many people are signing when the latest BBC article does not have a live link to the petition. Must mean that they are reading earlier articles too - or going to look for the petition for themselves.

Can't complain too much: the videos are still good to watch again - specially the comment from ES that trials are due to start later this month, and there is not date on the video.

---------- Post added at 00:08 ---------- Previous post was yesterday at 23:58 ----------

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7546357.stm

Even free services can't keep numbers up when businesses forget customers and concentrate on advertising.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder if Kent will get that Hitler feeling someday soon. You know, the one where he is sitting in his bunker thinking to himself, where did it all go wrong?

A few months previously everything seemed to be going well with the 'phormal solution' then all of a sudden, it all goes wrong.

Don't worry Kent, as we all know good usually eventually triumphs over bad. ;)

How does the saying go?
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not fool all of the people all of the time.
Abraham Lincoln, (attributed)

Once fooled, never forgotten (WareScouse) :)

How I used to unlove my one two one media helpers.

Sometimes the world resists conquering.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the earl has been asking questions again

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...rant_spending/

wonder if phorm fits into this as it does reveal where someone has been

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And now the brown stuff is going to hit the fan and the UK government is sitting right in the middle
A big thank you to the Earl of Northesk for his question that has exposed this:

UK government has paid £19 million to UK comms for snooping.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...rant_spending/


Is this the reason our government are not stopping or prosecuting BT for illegal activity since they are doing it also.

Damn you blue you just pipped me :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

one thing i have recently thought about

BT Webwise is supposedly run and trialed by BT Retail on kingston RAS and yet stephen mainwaring was a BT business customer and was affected by the trial

does not add up

could this be a BTW / BTR collusion issue, or again BT are trying to put a smokescreen in front of the system and limit information of the system /trial until forced to admit the truth

any thoughts anyone??

alex, you have the full report of the trial, anyway of knowing from the IP addresses in the report if any BT biz clients were affected?

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know that Stephen had a business running on the end of his connection, but was his connection a business ADSL?