Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another BT customer, I concur wholly with Robert's points. This is very powerful technology, and is capable of far more than BT has admitted. They claim that our PII and private data is safe in their hands, and that phorm/Webwise is fit for purpose. It is not, and I am very disturbed that BT has demonstrated that they are incapable of controlling the technology. Cookies have leaked, PII has leaked, and they have negligently failed to consider many aspects of implementing the scheme. If they were really on top of the system, had done thorough research, and were fully confident to be implementing the scheme they would be able to answer the many questions that customers have been asking, but, as Robert says, significant fundamental questions remain unanswered, while BT desperately claws at the sides of the deep pit in which they find themselves.

gnilddif

---------- Post added at 13:37 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------

I wholly agree.
g

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Over on the reg there is an artilce about Google Street view in the UK, their chat with the ICO and how the ICO is satisfied with what Google plans to do. Fair enough. The part that is kinda of odd is what Simon Davies of Privacy International has to say. Where do we know him from.
Quote for the reg article:
Not wanting to spark off another round of Simon Davies bashing but it does seem kind of odd considering his role in the Phorm debate?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I originally found out about Phorm when researching the system the Australian Government is planning to put into place. Our Government has been conducting tests on this level of filtering since 2005-2006. There is nothing commercial about it, it will be under the control of the Government but placed in the ISPs switching equipment in the same way that Phorm and NebuAd and the others are.

The Australian one is sold to the community as a porn filter and as protection for children. It is also proposed that it is opt-out. The range of sites to be blocked has yet to be published. It's censorship in any case. Purely political to placate a single member of our Senate who happens to hold the balance of power and is a member of a somewhat puritanical religious group. It is still in testing in lab conditions.

Dephormation Pete has a copy of the Government report to have a look at when he's got time. While it's not exactly the same issue as Phorm and Nebuad, it is almost the same equipment. There are a number of Australians that are not happy about this as you'd expect. It is another use of DPI and demonstrates the other possibilities. It would dovetail nicely into some of the anti-porn rhetoric of your government.

There's a strong possibility that the management of the filtering could be outsourced to a commercial organisation already in situ in an ISP's network and switching.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What a wonderful thing is catch-up tv.
All the C4 programmes without adverts interrupting them. Bargain!
I absolutely agree.
Although I would probably not even use a system like that either.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The enthusiasm of Simon Davis (wearing his Privacy International hat), to berate Google (hurrah!) is laudible.

So why have Privacy International got nothing at all to say about Phorm? Literally not one single word. Click here to search their web site.

You can search news.google.com for Google and Privacy International. 61 results. But do the same for Phorm and Privacy International and you get zilch.

So, PI simply stinks to me. :td:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Malware is developed professionally with the intent to make money. Earlier forms of malware up until around 2005 were principally designed to be installed on a user's computer as a forced advertising or forced search model. There was a change in the installation methods after the first rootkit, hackerdefender, was stealth installed. From around 2004 malware has mostly used rootkit techniques as part of the installation. The Apropos rootkit (one of many different kinds of malware) was stealth installed, forced advertising with the advertising being provided by ContextPlus. Things have progressed since then to identity theft, credit card fraud, keylogging, extortion and the incorporation of users' machines into botnets. The malware industry is highly competitive and very profitable.

The larger companies that had been involved were being investigated in the USA and several changed their business model. Gator became Claria where several of NebuAd's staff come from and 121Media became Phorm. There's others. Bob Dykes of NebuAd is from Juniper Networks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And when you compare your chances of actually being caught by a Google camera to your chances of being profiled by Phorm it becomes even more laughable.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are however, some links on Webwise and OIX
http://www.privacyinternational.org/...D=x-347-560974

There is also the statement:
"Opting Out
The whole opt-in and opt-out debate is only the beggining of the story. Most of the advertising schemes out there require that you opt-out if you do not wish to be behaviourally profiled and tracked. We fundamentally oppose these techniques and demand opt-in regimes. In the meantime, however, we are listing the opt-out opportunities that you have. One major problem here is that if you delete your cookies, you will have to opt-out again from all of these services."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As far as I am concerned we have to treat Privacy International's refusal to even discuss the subject in the same way that we treat the government's and the police's. It stinks of corruption especially as senior figures at Privacy International have taken money from Phorm for services rendered.

It's time to stop making excuses for them and I couldn't give a damn about who is friends with Simon Davies or what a nice chap he is in private. In terms of this issue Privacy International is doing harm to our side of the debate by their silence. They are effectively saying that there is no threat to privacy - if there was they'd be involved.

Privacy International is registered in the UK as a non-profit private limited company no. 4354366. If they are now selling their approval to companies like Phorm then that status should be questioned.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you, Peter. Totally agree.

:clap::clap::clap:

Again, totally agree. :mad: :mad: :mad: :td: :td: :td:

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome:

I see we have 50 guests on line at present, so welcome to you, and if you want to begin to find out more try this post here.

If you are lurking here on behalf of Phorm, then you have our condolences with regard to the regulatory interest in Canada and the agressive Congressional interest in the USA, and the growing interest and information available to our own parliamentarians, and of course the continuing 5 month and counting, delay in the BT trials. If you want to help your cause, then in the interests of transparency, publish the 80/20 Final PIA immediately, and maybe ask BT to publish "Premium Browsing:Research Findings".

If you are here as a legislator, then great to know you are interested. If you are a UK legislator, please can we have a more robust attitude?

If you are a member of the government, - hey this is a great opportunity to make a lot of voters very very happy - just take action to stop this DPI based scheme and remove that interception kit from BT's network. Forget Milliband, just go public that you are going to stop Phorm. Those 15,981 signatures on the epetition are an indicator of the public interest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PHP/Apache site owners may be interested in this post, which starts the ball rolling if you are considering sending a custom robots.txt to Phorm which is different to the robots.txt you want to send to Google, MSN, Yahoo etc...

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?7852

As I said on Badphorm, apologies I haven't had the time to fill in the gaps on this and release a script package. I'm sure others who know more about PHP than me will fill in the gaps if anyone needs a hand.

O.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I could do this if there's sufficient interest although I don't consider robots.txt to be a suitable exclusion method. Phorm isn't a spider and is not indexing publicly linked content. They intercept pages swerved during authenticated user logon sessions. At the very least Phorm should append themselves to the UA string when they strip the phorged domain cookie from the request headers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree that there are a lot of things Phorm should do, but in the event they don't then there are many steps webmasters can take to hamper the ISPs attempt to make money off the back of people's private data and other people's content.

I trust that the ISPs will ensure that Phorm complies with robots.txt. Their argument for implied consent is weak already but disappears entirely if webmasters are serving them a DENY ALL robots.txt.

In the unlikely event that Phorm does get rolled out, and is allowed by the regulators, it would be suicide if an ISP was found to be breaching other people's copyright by ignoring the robots.txt.

Other steps webmasters will be taking will be to detect Phormed connections so that they can educate visitors what their ISP is doing with their data.

Without the online community behind this, Phorm and the ISPs simply cannot win. They have chosen to confront this head on, with PR agencies and hardcore lobbying of parliament, dismissing the anti-Phorm campaign as ill conceived noise.

This will be Phorm and BTs undoing, chosing to fight the very people whose support they most need. Chosing to run trials in secret and attempting an equally quiet and secretive roll-out.

Without this campaign, the ICO would not even have gone so far as to rule that Phorm must be opt-in, and that consent muts be clear and unambiguous. THis was a major victory for us, let's not forget that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just to re-emphasise what others have said, this campaign is not about advertising per se. Most of us 'techies' are perfectly capable of blocking adverts if we want to. It is about the unauthorised interception of ALL our (unencrypted) web traffic, including interception of web pages where the web site has explicitly denied permission to intercept for commercial purposes. This is no different to the post office reading our mail and sending us targetted junk mail based on the content. Some people have indicated that intercepting web traffic is more like reading postcards than opening and reading sealed letters, but I'd be pretty upset if the Post Office were routinely reading post cards for commercial purposes, and would look at some way of sealing letters so they could only be opened by the recipient (equivalent to encrypting web communications).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Possible sighting of Phorm Exec leaving the UK
http://t-loombreaker-smythe.kicks-as...%201/plane.gif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Link not working here.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ok now

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Love it:p:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Robots.txt and copyright. There is no link.
Copyright is a mechanism of inclusion (and requires explicit licence to copy).
Robots.txt is a mechanism of exclusion (and requires denial of licence to index).
Put a different way, BT would dearly like to push the idea that web sites owners have no copyright by default.
That's legally and morally wrong, and you should not co-operate with them to make it so. Wait for them to switch Phorm on, then sue for copyright infringement.
I work in IT for my sins... One key step when you create a new system is a stage called 'stakeholder analysis'. In that step you identify the people impacted by your new system, and consider the effect that your IT system might have.
Phorm ignoring web sites was probably intentional. Asking web site owners if they wanted their communications intercepted, and their copyright works stolen, would probably have elicited a firm refusal.
It was a battle won, but its not enough.
If we don't prevent Phorm intercepting web traffic without the consent of both parties to the communication the internet is going to change dramatically. Expect to see widespread encryption, denial of content to Phorming ISPs customers, and web site countermeasures.
And if Government won't protect the privacy of web data communications, expect phones, SMS, voip, emails to be the next battlefield.
Phorm must be stopped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As an ISP customer I've sent a DPA notice to BT
As a webmaster, I've put a notice on my website.

I think I've done enough - if BT pay no attention they can have all the legal and financial flak coming to them. I have no intention of helping them in any way.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As they will be caching robots.txt, wouldn't it be better to deliver phorm a massive list of disallow statments, including for paths that do not exist - storage may be cheap, but searching it would make a bit more work for Phorm's profilers every time a phorm victim requested a page from your site?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Absolutely - we've been giving BT free advice for months and it's time for them to put up or shut up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I took a look at iplists.com/ and did some reverse lookups, it doesn't appear that PTR's are consistent for all the netblocks listed there. There'd be issues even with a cidr whitelist, some of the listed IP's are in blocks assigned to savis, bejing telecom and BT Fusion. Incidentally, BT wouldn't be planning to buy cached robots.txt data from a certain search partner would they?

Quick CIDR whitelist example

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They are only taking the page that you look at not searching the entire site ala google. That would not slow them down.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Either we fight this in an open and legitimate way or you can count me out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Any system that can acess be programed to gather persoanl data in a stealth way should never be allowed on networks of ISPs regardless of country.

It is time for the webmasters of the WWW, World customers to unite and say NO to DPI for anything that will spy, profile harvest customers clicks..



Agreed has to be legal BT/phorm aided with the government and Privacy international has stealthed enough illegal activity to last a life time..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Still waiting for your reply to my post #12996, feesch. I am eager to hear your thoughts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i run a tracert that id run before but this time i found something different in the connection i use virgin media cable
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...1&d=1217543671
now this is what i find strange that normaly the connection is a straight through connection now i get what looks like a triangle loop conection

anyway i run it from here as i have before
http://visualroute.visualware.com/
if anyone wants to test there connection

i also run a tracert just incase
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/at...1&d=1217543671

sorry for asking but whats going on please help at a bit of a loss here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ha ha! Missed this until now:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXo-Z58yxIc

Great anti-Phorm video.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Required reading for everyone - a very good description of how Phorm's Webwsie works written in plain English by Michael Kassner at techrepublic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Problem with the article is that he gets confused between the webwise.net cookies and the forged domain.tld cookies and what writes which and which gets stripped out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks, I'd been meaning to read up on nebuad. For webmasters, I think this handles both incarnations of evil for visitors who have script enabled.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nobody knows exactly how it will work because Phorm ain't saying and the cookie based approach may or may not be used by BT. BT have also changed their description several times including variously indicating that opted-out customers' data will or will not go through the profiling routines. It's also debatable just how many steps are involved - variously believed to by three or four though some have suggested as many as six or seven.

Some people have claimed that there are duplicate cookies though most now agree that there is one Webwise cookie and the websites' regular cookies with some extra code attached.

Given BT's statements regarding using a non-cookie opt-out system (although they only stated that this would be for the full roll-out) there is really no single definition of the system that we can safely say is the "correct" and complete version and even if the trial goes ahead there's no saying that the system used there will be the same one that is used in the final release.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One of the problems with moving traceroute changes discussion that was happening a few days back to a different thread is that even I can't find that thread this evening.

Found it - here - http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/87...l#post34608217

The simple answer is that no one knows. The practical answer is to keep an eye on traceroutes and running around within the same net block. It could be showing a test of DPI equipment or it could be a routing 'problem' during peak demand on the more direct pipe you usually see.

---------- Post added at 01:50 ---------- Previous post was at 01:41 ----------

NebuAd looks so much like the 2006 trial of 121Media where javascript was added after the closing HTML tag according to the few remaining forum posts still available from that time.

Both systems added extra cookies and now both are hoping to go cookie free.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I find this Paragraph the most informative to the uninphormed:)

"Sorry for the long, drawn-out description, but that’s exactly what takes place every time a web browser sends out a query. In this way, Phorm knows exactly where I go on the Internet and what I’m looking at. With these profiles, Phorm, for a fee, will tell advertising firms what ads to place on the web pages being served to me. The company states this whole process is anonymous, but that requires trust in what Phorm says, as the Phorm application is proprietary and not available for peer review. I don’t have an opinion one way or the other as to the claims of anonymity by Phorm. As mentioned earlier, I’m just concerned that most users are not aware of this technology, and I want to correct that."
:shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:rolleyes::rolleyes::erm: Isn't that a bit like what Privacy international are slating Google for and Google cannot stalk my every click, but yes they have a van going round videoing the streets. They blur out faces and this they keep a secret Privacy International jumps in wanting all the details on how. Because Google will not then they start to become a target for Privacy International seems the privacy rules by them are becoming dfistorted.
Phorm can gather my home details stored on my PC anything I type on a page they have the ability to log, store and sell to any one who will pay they can copy everything I see, they havne't shared anything about how they will do this, what the scripts will actually harvest we just have the word of one man that we already don't trust and blinded by cash greed BT that it will not do this.
Which would you prefer?
Privacy International are starting to cloud the good reputation they have built up, starting to look like a buy out to me sad when such good reputations became tainted by someone like Kent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a bit of light relief - this has to be the best story I've come across regarding BT's technical support.

Chap on the BT forum has problems and is constantly on the phone to BT. He speaks to one operator who can't find details of his account even after our chap gives him all of his personal details.

The BT operator eventually asks our chap a classic question:-

"Could you have been born on a different date?"

I just read that on the BT help forum and I laughed so much that coffe came out of my nose - priceless.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Emma Finally replayed to the legal advice I havde been given.

---------------------
dear xxxxxx

We disagree with your interpretation. To confirm our position on
copyright, we consider that as a general proposition, by placing a
webpage on the internet, the website owner is granting an implied
licence to reproduce/copy. We believe that the taking of a temporary
copy for the purposes of Webwise will fall within that implied licence
and also believe in any event that the proposed operation of Webwise is
permitted under s.28A of Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988. So,
there is no breach of copyright.

------------------------------

Head, and sand firmly stuck in place. This reply dispite the fact my site has a clear copyright notice on each and every page.

I had asked for a summery of the legal advice, for my solicitor, but this has not been forthcoming. I doubt it even exists.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A copyright notice does not prevent anyone from accessing or using the data on a website.

Also remember that copyright is a matter for a civil court so you'll not get a definitive answer to thse questions until and unless a possible breach occurs and you bring a case against those responsible.

Also remember that you have to prove that your copyright has been breached and then establish who is responsible for the breach and in this case it may be the end user especially as BT have a clause that makes the customer responsible - it's the reason why they can restrict your account if anyone in your house illegally downloads copyrighted music.

The copyright issue can only be settled in court after the system goes live - until then it is a moot point.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A copyright notice licences the use of a literary work. No one is entitled to breach the copyright licence (unless exempt by copyright law).

Particularly so if the use of that work is harmful to the copyright owner (as Phorm undoubtedly is).
The proof (in a civil case) is balance of probability.

The end user is not responsible for the copying process, nor is the document in the possession of the end user when it is copied, nor does the user get the opportunity to read any copyright restriction before the document is copied.

The problem is entirely the ISPs to deal with.

You can prove which ISP requested a document by source IP address range.

You can prove statistically, the balance of probability (or even use the evidence of leaked UID cookies) that a web page was copied many times.

Absolutely. As a moot point, it is still worth discussing though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think all who do not wish to have phorm copying their website really need to block BT IP ranges or at least redirect them to an https page explaining why the redirect and what thye need to do to be able to continue through the website.

Emma just cannot understand the diffeence between a bot crawling a website to list it then bring potentual customers to the site and interception of a website to harvest and commercial gain for others but not the person who pays the bills for the website....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh, I think she can understand it.

---------- Post added at 20:04 ---------- Previous post was at 20:03 ----------

One signature away from 16,000!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So if I were to collect the best articles from the Web editions of The Times, The Guardian, The Independent and so on and republish them on my own subscription-based website, those newspapers wouldn't be bothered?

I think BT need some new l-l-l-lawyers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surely BT are reading this thread? Or do they just have their fingers in their ears shouting "LA LA LA LA LA LA" hoping it will all go away? I thought we had already pointed out their use of a temporary copy does not fall under s.28A?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I thought I'd ask Emma, see what she said about it all. I gather she's not keen on email, so I used her virtual presence;

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/76.jpg

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi All, not sure if this has been posted already -

"Ex-Clinton Aid Reps Phorm to Policy-Makers"

From here -

http://www.marketingvox.com/ex-clint...makers-040195/

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would see checking robots.txt but not providing a phorm user agent that webmasters can block, as an admission that they are both well aware of the difference, and do not believe copyright holders who are aware of phorm would consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Great News Stateside - the FCC have made a decision in the case of Comcast and their P2P manipulation. Though not Phorm, it is directly linked, as this could have reprocusions within all DPI usage by ISPs:

http://www.savetheinternet.com/blog/...et-neutrality/

"In a landmark decision, FCC Chairman Kevin Martin and Commissioners Michael Copps and Jonathan Adelstein approved a bipartisan “enforcement order” that would require Comcast to stop blocking and publicly disclose its methods for manipulating Internet traffic."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My thoughts on complete anonymisation (for non-technical readers, and technical alike).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In case anyone was moving broadband suppliers today, BT currently have an issue with the MAC system (again)I will post an update when I receive it. Perhaps someone on the BT forum can mention this there too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's fabulous news. Absolutely fabulous.

Actually the words used by Michael Copps might have profound implications for Nebuad and Phorm; "Safeguarding the internet from bugs, and infections" (see video here)

Meaningless in this country of course, because our politicians and regulators have not got a clue.

---------- Post added at 23:06 ---------- Previous post was at 22:51 ----------

Intermittent in the sense that it generally occurs when a customer phones and asks for a MAC code?

What do they take us for? :naughty:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This will be a system failure at BTW perhaps (as it is affecting the independent ISPs with their orders) rather than someone failing the system.

Maybe too many requests? Or something new using all the power to a rack? :cool:

There was also a MAC related problem a few weeks back which was fixed within a few hours.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm webwise knowledge and resentment is growing every day.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As told by Michael Copps:

"Until the FCC opened this enquiry, important decisions about the future of the internet were being made in a black box where the American people had precious little opportunity to peek. After today they will hopefully be able to see things in a little brighter light"

WAKE UP UK GOVERNMENT, Home Office, ICO , PI and above all BT, VM and Talk Talk, Phorm's WebWise days are hopefully numbered!
If the US with their supposedly weaker data privacy laws can see through the smoke and mirrors, isn't it about time you did too?

Even they see the need for a neutral internet. The data ain't there to be messed around with!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Only one problem America hasn't got a paraniod prime minister who wasn't elected but had it handed to him on a plate how many will vote for him now if there was a general electioin..

---------- Post added at 02:02 ---------- Previous post was at 01:59 ----------

another good one from America... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXkUahWnpTY&feature=user

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Done.
g

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually that's pretty much what they have got - remember the dodgy votes in Florida. Thankfully they have a powerful Senate that is willing to address new technology issues as they arise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More thoughts on retention of browsing history by Webwise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nice one Pete. I've raised the Canon photo example with BT but got no answer. Surprise surprise.

Para 3 of my letter to BT Retail legal wallahs,

3. Issues relating to Phorm/Webwise claims about the storage of data
3.1. This question is based on a review by a lawyer, Struan Robertson, from Pinsent Masons -(but he is speaking personally not on behalf of Pinsent Masons) – I understand that Pinsent Masons are retained by BT for legal advice? http://www.out-law.com/default.aspx?page=9090
Phorm's have noted that this article "makes the important distinction between the letter and spirit of the law". (I suppose he means - "Officer, I know I was speeding but surely the law wasn't meant to catch people like me?")

Struan Robertson says:
Point 1...
Canon could instruct Phorm to deliver adverts for its latest digital camera to anyone who visited a web page identified by Canon as giving a glowing review the previous week. It can narrow that request even further: Canon can tell Phorm only to deliver the ad to anyone who read that review and also visited more than two other pages that mentioned the model name, e.g. IXUS 970, within the past three days.
Point 2...
There are certainly good things about Phorm. First and foremost, it never knows who you are, it can't find out and it has no record of where you've been.

Now - my question. How can Phorm not store any browsing history, yet know
where someone browsed three days ago? Is Struan Robertson wrong in point 1 or in point 2?

Their reply artfully, and in my opinion, deceitfully, avoided the whole issue and definitely didn't answer my question. (that url is cuttable/pastable/quotable, so feel free to quote - after all it's on the internet, so according to BT you can assume implied consent or whatever)

Storage of data
There is no fundamental disagreement between Struan Robertson's piece and the claims made regarding the privacy safeguards of the Webwise system, as can be illustrated by a fuller description of the mechanics of the system. When an advertiser specifies their targeting criteria for serving ads to particular users, they are actually defining the parameters of an advertising channel within the Webwise system, plus their "recency" requirements for channel matches (i.e. when the matches occurred).

This channel definition is then used to match against summaries of web page content as pages pass through the system (the summaries or 'data digests' contain page and search keywords, plus site URLs from pages that are permitted to be profiled). If there is a match for a particular page's data digest against the channel definition, the match is recorded, with the channel name, the Webwise UID and a timestamp being the only information stored. The URL of the page visited by the user is not stored.

When at a later time/date, a page containing a Phorm advertising tag is requested by the Webwise user, the Phorm system looks up the Webwise DID in the channel match database and selects and ad to show based on the stored channel matches and the campaign requirements (e.g. user must have matched the channel once in the last 5 days). It should be noted that advertisers will not be allowed to specify single URLs in the definition of channels, and hence it will not be possible to target ads based solely on a user having visited a specific page."

So - once again for the record.
How can the system "know" where I've been (as in which urls I've visited and how many days ago) and simultaneously not have any record of where I've been? If Canon will only serve an ad when I've been visiting a specific set of urls, or matched certain conditions within the last 5 days or 10 days, how is that done? How does the system meet Canon's "recency" requirements. HOW?

I'm not making this up - I'm just using the published information, and quoting stuff coming out of either BT or Phorm, and trying to make sense of it. The answer about the Canon ad came from a Phorm representative answering questions from Struan Robertson. It's not something campaigners have made up.

But then they do say that once you start telling porkies in public it gets very very difficult to hold on to a consistent storyline.

It's really very easy, just be transparent to the end user. Transparent as in "tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth". (Not transparent as in covert, deceptive, obfuscation, spin, so you don't get found out.)

Oh what a tangled Web(wise) you weave.

---------- Post added at 10:57 ---------- Previous post was at 10:42 ----------

Is there anyone with no significant assets, and who is not a property owner, fancies copying a sizeable chunk of a BT website and putting it up on their own webspace, and then letting BT know about it?

If they act against you by asking you to take it down, we have them between a rock and a hard place.
If they FAIL to act against you, then the fact can be publicised and maximum hay made while the sun shines, emphasising that according to BT anything anywhere on the "open" internet can be copied and reproduced anywhere.

Alternatively we could write/email BT and simply let them know that we are planning to do this, and do they have any comments? (free of legal risk).

Is there a particular part of their empire that might be suitable for such exploitation? (Like the DABS site?) Perhaps we could let them know we plan to scrape the DABS site regularly and use the data to undercut them?

Now who would we need to contact to inform them about that?

Here's the sort of thing I had in mind - I'm sending this off to BT Retail legal department...

Dear Sir or Madam:
Copryright
Pursuant to recent correspondence from yourselves, I wish to advise you that I have plans to copy large sections of material on websites from BT Group plc, and put them up on my own websites. I am presuming that there are no copyright objections to this.
I am also planning to “scrape” the sites of both DABS and the BT Shop on a regular basis, and then use the data therein to offer the items at a lower price from my own retail outlet. I may just use the page copies from the BT Shop and DABS sites as they stand, but with altered contact details so shoppers can contact my own sales outlet instead of yours.
I was worried about copyright issues, when I was planning this but your reassurances that “Our position is that as a general proposition, by placing a webpage on the internet, the website owner is granting an implied licence to reproduce/copy. We believe that the taking of a temporary copy for the purposes of Webwise will fall within that implied licence and also believe in any event that the proposed operation of Webwise is permitted under S.28A of Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.”
I was also worried that there might be conditions on the website forbidding me taking such copies, but I now see that even if a website owner puts up that sort of notice, it is not necessary according to your legal position, for anyone to pay the slightest bit of attention to it.
I’m delighted to have this opportunity to save myself all the tedious and expensive market research and web page design fees – now I can just rip off someone else’s work and use it for my own commercial purposes. Can I assume you are happy about me doing this? If you have no objections I can just go ahead in 14 days time? Of course if you object I will observe (and publish) your objections. But you will need to explain why what applies to the BT Retail goose, doesn’t apply also to the BT customer gander.
Unless you object specifically I shall assume implied consent to publish your reply.
Sincerely,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just completing a draft letter to my MP, I can not believe the anger that is building up by writing it, trying very hard not to rant. The sheer arrogance of BT and Phorm ......ggrrrrraaaaaaarrrggh.

Reading various stuff on line, about BT possibly trying to move away from cookies option. The following is complete guess work as I have not got the technical expertise. The only way two ways I can think they could do this would be to use IP addresses, they like to keep going on about Google storing IP address, maybe BT will say that Phorm do not have access to account details, so is only the same as Google..

The other option would be for Phorm to go back to their roots, quite literally. When the user is given the web page and accepts Webwise, the little bar at the top screen of IE pops up with download file. This installs a program which says its from your ISP so you should trust it!! This program runs on the PC all the time, or is an add in for the browser. This could then for example contact phorms servers and give that PC an unused UID. This would mean that you would always update the profile assigned to that UID.

Not sure if I am correct, under the cookies system, if I delete my cookies at the end of each browsing session, then the UID is deleted, so any link to any profile they have built of me is lost. The next time I start browsing again I am given a different UID and a new profile is started?

Once my letter to my MP is done, I'll then finish the one for my ISP. I have another plan of action. I am not going to discuss it on here, but if I get any positive replies I'll pass it on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Definitely. BT's advice that "... we consider that as a general proposition, by placing a webpage on the internet, the website owner is granting an implied licence to reproduce/copy" would indicate that you could set up a website at www.shopcheaperthanbt.com (the domain is available) which could present the BT Shop web pages annotated with the online retailers who sold the products at a lower price.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap: That sir, is excellent :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A good idea would be to trawl through all of BT's servers and collect and categorise images, and then host them on another server, advertising that they are free to use.

---------- Post added at 11:59 ---------- Previous post was at 11:59 ----------

Excellent work, btw, R Jones!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know I removed a lot of very good information but it was this little bit I have changed to red that cought my eye......

Since even if I say Phorm cannot access, copy, harvest, intercept or anything else on my website they would ignore it yet you sir still are man enough to offer them a chance to not have it published! According to them even if we object specifically against phorm/webwise it will still go ahead and copy our websites, do not give them a loop hole different from what they are giving us all is fair in love and war. By the way love the letter.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that is easily done - they run an image library for things like the latest Home Hub etc. with the images being "free of charge".

I know it also says, "They are not to be used for any advertising, marketing or promotional purposes by third parties, or for internal communications requirements such as newsletters or non-commercial websites, without the expressed permission of BT and the copyright holder." but who cares about that? It's just a "notice" - I think we can ignore it. Anyway they allow Google to crawl their site so let's just assume they don't mind us scraping it either.

I even turned up some information about those famous Canon cameras with this search, so must get some for my online shop.

It's all on Google and on the web, so's bound to be okay? Can't see any problem, can you Del'boy? Let's load ' up in the back of the old Robin Reliant and get 'em round to Peckham market pronto.

---------- Post added at 12:35 ---------- Previous post was at 12:27 ----------

Florence it is not very difficult to occupy and hold moral ground slightly higher than BT and Phorm do. I can do it just by putting on a pair of socks and standing on the toilet seat.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So - any offers from Londoners to place anti-Phorm flyers on tube carriages?

Like I said, I would cover the expense of getting them printed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

HI all, new member here greetings to all.
This may have been asked before so pardon me if it has. Wouldnt this technology be a breach of privacy under the Human Rights Act?
Maybe some brighter and up to speed could comment?

Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The correct term is Without Prejudice and it should be at the top of the letter centred, in bold, above the Dear Sir/Madam bit. :)

With the NebuAd and Phorm lobbying about to get off the ground in the US, I would suggest you prepare for an onslaught of anti-Google, anti-social-networking (MySpace, Facebook etc.) propaganda. It will be designed to demonstrate how lilly-white and clean NebuAd and Phorm really are, while these other organisations have been really doing worse than them for years.

It might be a very good idea to prepare well thought out rebuttals. This sort of informercial stuff usually does get into the mainstream.

The Netflix DeAnonymiser algorithm is one place to start on unravelling their arguments on anonymity. The Gator connections to NebuAd and Phorm's previous life as 121Media "rootkit installer", origins should be useful as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome, Phil!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Friend of mine got their MAC with in 3 hours of asking on 31st it expires 31/08/08 so if others can generate tehm it has to be :-

1 BT messing trying to fit things in the servers knocking others offline in the process.
2 too many asking for the MAC keys so trying to slow this down
3 they do not know how to do the job
4 all of the above.

:welcome: Phill

I think we did touch on human rights would seem with our present government, BT and privacy international we hae no rights where phorm is. Seems if it was Google BT had jumped into bed with it would have ben slated by Privacy international as not legal..

Greasy palms come to mind when talking about Phorm perhaps how the company went through so much money yet doesnt do anytrhing to spend it on..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/ACTS/acts1998..._19980042_en_1

Only thing I could find was the following:-

Taken from http://www.justice.gov.uk/docs/act-studyguide.pdf

Article 8: Private life and family

You have the right to respect for your private and family life, your home and your correspondence.

The definition of “correspondence” is broad, and can include communication by letter, telephone, fax or email.

I'm not a lawyer so I can not really comment

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome:

You (and any other new to the Phorm/Webwise/DPI debate can get a quick legup here (not too technical) and then it's up to you how deep you go. The important thing is to get ACTIVE, and contact your MP, MEP, BT, and all your friends and send them to where they can get information about this scummy product.

For starters, send your ISP one of Dephormations DPA notices asap, and write to your MP using theyworkforyou.com
Ask them what they are doing about Phorm/Webwise/DPI and don't let them off the hook if they send you a feeble reply.

Whenever you write a letter, ask for permission to publish the reply.

Good to have you aboard. Bring a friend next time!!! ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Like many of the issues raised by this system the only honest answer is - we don't know.

There is no absolute right to privacy included in any of the acts or laws icluding the Human Rights Act. The HRA only refers to "respect" for privacy and it will require a specific ruling before it is established how those terms relate to this system. Such a ruling will only come as the result of a court case especially as BT's response to any questions over the legality of this system has been to state the they "believe" that it's legal rather than quoting any precedant case-law.

The one thing we do know is that EU commision is watching events closely.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks All,
for your welcome and prompt replies. Will read and inwardly digest. Printing dephorm letter as we speak.

Phil

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think BT plan to offer a cookie free account level opt-out, but those who opt-in will still get a UID and phorged cookies. Targeting adverts by IP address alone is just not accurate enough. Using tracking cookies to target adverts means advertisers are much more likely to reach the intended person where a connection is shared by family members.

One approach ( discussed earlier http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34590456 ) to track end-users without phorging cookies would be to capture a hash of an end-user's search engine cookies and their regular tracking network cookies - if a system injected some code into the page returned when users search on Google to make the end user's browser request various tracking cookie urls, then the system could capture the user's google preference cookie and all their tracking cookies and link them to a that specific user. Then it could track individuals browsing using a combination of IP address, third-party tracking cookies, and referrer. I did wonder if Nebuad might be using that approach.


Yes, If you've deleted your cookies, the next time you browse you will be invited to be phormed and will be assigned a new UID.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi again a thought,
Whaat about contract law? Unfair Terms state..

Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999). section 5

Unfair Terms
5.
(1) A contractual term which has not been individually negotiated shall
be regarded as unfair if, contrary to the requirement of good faith, it
causes a significant imbalance in the parties' rights and obligations
arising under the contract, to the detriment of the consumer.

(2) A term shall always be regarded as not having been individually
negotiated where it has been drafted in advance and the consumer has
therefore not been able to influence the substance of the term.

(3) Notwithstanding that a specific term or certain aspects of it in a
contract has been individually negotiated, these Regulations shall apply
to the rest of a contract if an overall assessment of it indicates that
it is a pre-formulated standard contract.

(4) It shall be for any seller or supplier who claims that a term was
individually negotiated to show that it was.

(5) Schedule 2 to these Regulations contains an indicative and
non-exhaustive list of the terms which may be regarded as unfair.”

and also the new act of 2008 not familiar with that one yet using this one to ignore parking charge by private firm of thieving bandits.

And seeing as they havent asked us how can we agree.WE all know how virgin like their contracts dont we?

Philj

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some people might be interested in looking at this:

http://about.bttradespace.com/

Check out The Lounge:

http://communities.bttradespace.com/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The new 2008 ones are quite a lot tougher. I think they are one reason why BT are having to be careful about the design of the Webwise interstitial invitation page. they outlaw misleading descriptions where advantages are played up, and disadvantages played down or ignored. Pretty much fits most of the BT publicity about Phorm to date.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simply brilliant :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Quite simply BT made the rules but can they play by them:blah: or is it all a whirling vortex of hot air:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Guys, simply loving your comments, arguments and feedback! Apologies for not replyig sooner, but I travel continually.

Ok - I posted the blog with a deliberate middle-ground approach and yes am happy to provoke.

Like may of you i am a technologist who finds himself exposed to a many steps ahead of where the rest of the consumers are.

Yes I work in digital advertsing. Yes I am against being tracked unlawfully.

• I do not agree with Oystercard's RFID scam that came in without question (you do realise these things can be picked up from half a mile away I assume - not the 'touch-in, touch-out' marketing lie that was fed to us all).
  
• I do not agree with the DVLA's descision to put RFID chips in all numberplates without telling us exaclty why. (watch out next time you take your car in for an MOT)
  
• I am aware of the evidence of how many people are more concious of advertising now they skip them - they speed up and slow down at certain points not wishing to miss their programme, and the 3 sec spots either side of normal TV ads have huge impact as a result.
  
• I also have developed some of the most successful behaviourally sequenced adverts online, and seen the global results of how users not only welcome them, but give away personal data within them in order to personalise the ads. But it was done in what I believe WAS ethical, because it followed an opt-in model, so I know it can be done.

I can also see how the dots will be joined. I drive my car, past a billboard which will show me a targeted advert and a flashing icon on my GPS to lead me to the shop - based on the fact I put a can of coke in the bin, or based on the fact I was just searching for Ski-holidays. This links GPS, RFID to Internet streams to show me related adverts. Its a huge business opportunity!!! And F*&CKING scary big-brother world that few out there realise is coming (and here in trials).

Now I can see what Phorm are doing, but it is not purely them, - there are many other types of technologies that are part of this and helping close the loop.

We have opened Pandora's box that is a fact, and I know many of you in technology can see what I see, but the problem we face is do we STOP all advancement (knowing people probably would rather have personalised media content and relevant adverts), or will they change the law to make it acceptable (bearing in mind you now have RFID in UK passports! and your 'wave-and-pay' Barclaycards are backdoor ID cards)

I have seen various movements to ban RFID, ban Phorm, and what have you - but I am also a realist. I do not think you are going to stop this, as this is merely a begininning phase and there is to much pressure to get to a crazy utopia as I outlined above.

But if we are going to make an impact for the correct reasons, then we need to tackle the issue from both sides of the argument, because in court, money talks - and government security and advertsing bucks of big brands will have a huge persuasion (and both will be sited for development and installation of technologies).

All the time people personalise homepages using RSS feeds, use Amazon and iTunes to recommend content - we are going to have a fight against people who will quote "see we are just giving consumers what they want and who cares about a few Geeks... they will get over it..."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Above granted; however there is the attitude of the group which cannot be overcome here. I myself think we would sooner look back on this in years to come and be able to say we fought and didn't win, rather than say we didn't fight because we couldn't win. There really is enough at stake here to warrant such resistance, even if it may seem futile to some within the industry. There is also the equal chance that our concerns can be catered into a future incarnation of the concept, one that is compatible with the law, and our requirements concerning PII.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hurrah for the few Geeks so far they have managed to have stopped the PLC's so far.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now TLS - you KNOW that the delay in the Webwise trials have just been because of a few technical problems and are nothing to do with any anti-Webwise campaign. :D

BT have said so, so it must be true. I've got an email from Emma to prove it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You talk some sense, but I think on this point you are wrong. Webwise is a step too far. The backlash has already started, and this is before a trial. If the trial ever happens, (and I think theres a very good chance it won't) the outcry will be so immense that a full release will never happen.

We are winning! Phorm is dying. No income, no profit, not a lot of cash reserves, and who is going to invest, seeing the way its going? I give it 3 months tops.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Although not directly relevant Ryanair's successful application for an injunction preventing screen scraping and their pending case in Dublin may eventually make life difficult for BT. See [URL="http://www.out-law.com/page-9253"]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The majority of people would rather not be spied on, than have "relevant adverts".

http://www.nma.co.uk/Logon/ResourceB...ntentContinues

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But Google Mail is doing just this, and where is the huge outcry? Facebook did just this with Beacon - and haven't pulled it, merely adapted it.

John, sorry, but it it is an advertising argument – and you telling me you can block all ads everywhere – you are having a laugh! Everything will have a digital connection – your Mobile, PC, TV, Outdoor – so pop-up blockers are going to have to get a lot more specific to block out all ads you are exposed to during your day…

I hear your frustration, and equally share it – but I also want you to see the much bigger picture (without negating any of your valid views)

Netscape floated in 1995 and started the dotcom rush. No-one could turn data into hard cash and hence dotcom crash. Google stood up with pay-per-click and turned the tide – and look at the superbrand they have become as result. And what happened to the ISPs – Like, where is Compuserve now?! AOL were forced to change their model too as people would not pay huge rates for accessing media/content online. Advertising was (as always) the basis for releasing content to the masses.

The internet was not designed to cope with huge volumes of video based content – and video is where the big money is. Big money to create and big money to distribute. Communication is an aspect of digital growth, entertainment content is the core desire – and hence why communication companies like BT, Sky and Virgin are becoming quad-play (communication, access, content, gaming).

Now BT Vision is about taking those media streams and making them dynamic and personally relevant. Dynamic advertising insertion that will be personable to the user is equally key as we all watch TV very different to how we did 40 years ago, which is when the TV model was born. We have more choice, which means harder for advertisers to lock-on to any person so broadcast TV is under threat as advertisers won’t pay as can no longer target based on viewing habits, users don’t want to pay BBC license fees, and as result no money coming in to create and distribute content – that is why they are looking for smarter alternatives, such as mobile phone in’s and crap reality programmes to create revenue to create decent TV programmes..

That is why they want Phorm - not just for 'website traffic' but to track what you are doing when you are communicating, surfing and watching TV content (hence Sky requirement of telephone line to supplement a receiver dish) and not only serve you relevant content from the plethora of channel choices out there now, but also to insert targeted and relevant ads into those TV streams, and as a result are happy to give away (eventually) free web access. (BT is planning on rolling out free wi-fi).

Google and Microsoft spent billions last year on acquiring ad technology for a reason. I know I work for their competitor. And all of us are in discussions not with website owners, but TV and mobile operators about how to maintain quality content that users want – and results show that people will choose ads over paying for content if given a choice.

Create demand, drop the price, fuel the masses… Look at iPhone G3 for a case in point. Its marketing.

So human rights, privacy issues are all thrown into this argument (and rightfully so I equally want to make sure these are given adequate consideration and why I personally went to a Parliament debate last month) but the bottom line is if you want to carry on watching TV – and Hi-Def TV – someone has to pay for it. So unless you have some clever argument of why you will pay thousands a year for internet access to cope with the video demands, and can prove others will do likewise, the only result is to look to advertising. No one likes crap or irrelevant ads, so how can web 3.0 create automated ways of doing just that? Welcome to the Phorm debate – as I said, it is DoubleClick cookies (content - web 1.0) and Facebook Beacon (communication - web 2.0) leading to Phorm (convergence – web 3.0).

So you think Phorm will die? Did DoubleClick when they were taken to court for tracking people in the 90’s – urrrmmm how much did Google pay for them last year?!

I have no huge answers, but you are not going to stop this (completely) as long as people want quality and relevant content – so surely will be better if we can think how can we ensure that there is an acceptable line for all parties that delivers relevance whilst maintaining (a degree) of anonymity?

Isn't that how we will win?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder if any use can be made of this tool?

It appear to be designed to check for ISP interference in any transiting traffic.

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

feesch-

Welcome back feesch. Any chance you could answer my questions regarding Phorm's conduct in my post #12996?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"I have no huge answers, but you are not going to stop this (completely) as long as people want quality and relevant content – so surely will be better if we can think how can we ensure that there is an acceptable line for all parties that delivers relevance whilst maintaining (a degree) of anonymity?" - Feesch

You keep claiming to know what people want but you provide no evidence. This is exactly what BT have done and it flies in the face of the facts. Like BT you claim this widespread desire for "relevent" advertising and you write very nicely but once you remove the pretty prose and unsupported claims then there's nothing left but one of a handful of people who sees a way to make a quick buck at our expense.

So far, 16,000 people have signed a Downing St petition to oppose this one system and there's no sign of anyone outside of the ISPs and the advertising industry actually supporting it's use.

Your claims are simply not supported by the facts but we're used to you people by now so we'll just leave you to get on with making some more money while we concentrate on doing the right thing.

For everyone else reading this - just remember that advertsing people like Feesch manipulate facts for a living.

Don't be taken in by the "it's too late" garbage in Feesch's posts. Nothing could be further from truth or we would all be using these systems, the British and American ISPs would not running scared as they are at present and people like him wouldn't be crawling around a forum like this trying to run a pro-Phorm advertising campaign. All his posts prove is that the people with nothing but £££ signs in their heads are getting desparate.

We are doing the right thing for the right reasons and we are winning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

feesch

Just look at your post it is far too Media Orientated, it ignores Real World Issues & Values, Economics & Social Practices!

To me, Apart from the Very Obvoius Techical Issues any system like this will encounter.

"You & others are acting somewhat in the manner of the Stock Market Boom when someone came up with the "magic" formula placing risk on both sides of the equation & then ignoring it!"

Too many people, scientists included tend to completely ignore the medium in which the "experiment" is taking place!

We can't spend enough money on getting this to acheive all it's possible benefits, let alone spending more & more money promoting possibly "tacky goods".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_fusion

"Good Products tend to sell themselves with minimal advertising"!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Absolutely utterly and completely not. This must be stopped, and stopped completely.

We are talking here about the right to privacy, security, and integrity in data communication services.

ISPs have no business what so ever inspecting the content of those communications, particularly when those communications relate to services which they aren't even supplying (third party web sites).

There is no "acceptable line". ISPs are paid to provide a communication service. Mere conduits. End of story.

Think of it in terms of the Post Office. Should they be entitled to open my mail and insert ads if they think they can make money? No.

Data communications are no different.

I pay my ISP £24.99/mo to provide 30GB of peak traffic, 300GB off peak. They don't need to know what I send/receive or why. Its none of their business. The problem of cost only arises when customers are sold, and therefore expect, an 'unlimited' service. If ISPs choose to sell an 'unlimited' service, then they only have themselves to blame for the consequences... not their customers. If "video is where the big money is" then the big money can fund its own network bandwidth.

But here's another thought too. How does an economy function if you can't guarantee the privacy, security, and integrity of communications?

The way it will function is by resorting to encryption, and suing for copyright infringement.

Where does that leave Phorm? It leaves Phorm with nothing to steal, and a business model that looks as rotten as a barrel of rotten apples.

ISPs have no right to access private communications, no right to corrupt communications traffic, and no right to steal copyright content.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The new Cuil search engine launched this week with great fanfare shows the misconceptions of 'targetted' adverts very well. It displays an image adjacent to some of search results which is meant to be relevant to what you are searching for. In this process it is in fact (as mentioned earlier) doing exactly the web content search that Phorm does...

Go to http://www.cuil.com and do a search for "Bracknell Methodist Church", with the quotes (my church). On page 3 and 4 of the results you will see a beautiful image specially targetted for our church - a pair of blue and green Bracknell wheelie bins!! (the black wheelie bins aren't even Bracknell ones..).

(note also that only two of the links shown on all those pages go directly to our website, not very good....)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

welcome back feesch, I dont use anything that is heavy on the bandwidth my worst month was the month Microsft updated Vista 4 machines auto updated using rather a lot of bandwidth.... I have never gone over 4 gig at peak time and maxed out heaviest month up and down 21gig so all you are offering in way of adverts isn't needed for me I am happy with my speed since I moved to ADSL from cable.
I don't watch TV programs on my computer dont wish to watch them.

If BT cannot supply BT Vision without pimping customes privacy they shouldnt do it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

did the same with my church and up pops quality vacuum product company err

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Feesch comes highly recommended...

“Dean is knowledgeable & great to work with in the online ad business. He understands, Publisher, Agency & Advertiser needs & delivers a great service for us as a publisher.”
Barry John, Traffic Manager, Virgin Media

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A bit sceptical aren't you?