Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

#1 - Well done to the person who leaked this document. Hopefully by now you were fully aware of the potential consequences of doing so and have taken steps to remain anonymous. (I was remarkably naive in this regard :) )

#2 - Well done Alex for getting this into the public domain. I'll be there next month.

#3 - I've analysed the document and have a few points to make over and above what Alex and others have already pointed out.

- p5, para 8 - Broadband Terms and Conditions
Read - we want to do this thing by stealth.

- p6, para 5 - Network Components
- p7, para 3 - Advertising Method and Campaign
This reference to 10000 users is then used throughout the rest of the document.

In fact, on p45 the table that references how many users were part of trial we see
which were presumably a large subset of the days total ip's tracked : ~So, considering that BT have claimed that they could not and did not know who was part of the trial, this document proves that claim to be false.
Furthermore, p13, para 9 - Observations and Exhibits Whilst these 15-20 trialists reported the problems they were seeing via the message boards, the table at the top of p13 details a requirement for tranparancy, with the success criteria being - with the result being yet document claims (para 8 same page) Not exactly consistant there is it?

Sorry if this is getting tedious, but there's so much more wrong with this than I can readily assimilate. Read on..

-p14, para 1, Really? The phrase "no ****, Sherlock" springs to mind.

And the part that will really fry them..
-p14, para 3 - Source IP address Change
So, their claim that the system does not store IP addresses is patently false. Not only do they see them, they have to store them so the the traffic collected on behalf of the user can be sent back to their REAL ip address. This is known in the trade as a 'state table' which holds session information for proxied connections which includes the source ip address of the originator.

Also, on p21 there is a table that lists different types of traffic flows and what the system does with that traffic in each case and lists whether or not advert injection was successful.

Entries 12 and 16 are noteworthy..
So, BT, care to explain how you know that the system successfully injects adverts into these sites? Is M$ and Youtube+others aware you were diverting their revenue streams for the purposes of your trial? Fraud and deception are the keywords your lawers will need to be looking up here.

-p22, para 3 To quote the vernacular - **** me backwards! 21CN is a wholesale network as far as I'm aware. What the hell is BT Retail thinking of here? The number of projected servers they need to run this kit is in the region of 300 servers, and mention is made of having to find suitable places to host the equipment. Good luck with that. I know for a fact that your latest datacenter at Rochdale is already pretty much fully subscribed, and unless you take all that reserved space for NHS off them you aren't getting it into Cardiff either (which for those of you not familiar with BT is their main 21CN site). 300 servers? hahahahahaha. Most BT datacenters are running out of/or have run out of power. Unless the Rochdale site is fully subscribed *because* of this project, I don't see where you're going to put this stuff anyway.

Lastly, but not leastly, security.
p41, para 3 - Observations and Exhibits
So, when you mentioned before that Phorm would be managing the kit on your behalf, I suppose you meant that you are going to let them have access to the BT network then? Either that or you will be managing the kit yourselves, which you said you weren't doing (can't remember the reason why but it was something to do with you not being able to run the kit yourselfs due to regulations - someone help me here please.)

The next para also says You mean the firewalls don't you? But how the hell will it protect from DDoS attacks? Take the system down and you take BT down. ****, everyone one this site please stop protesting and actually let them put this in place. It'll last about 10 minutes but the fireworks will be spectacular. Headline : DDoS hits 3.5 million ADSL users!


It is clear to me that BT have performed a lot of due diligence regarding the technical implementation of the platform, there is evidence in the document showing this. The fact that there are sections clearly stating the system is 'opt-out only' and that they knew that even opted out customers were intercepted shows that the legal advice they sought was either ficticious or completely wrong, why else would they have re-designed the system to be 'opt-in'. They are chasing their tails on this one.

If they had dropped it right at the start they *may* have avoided a lot of this. Now they are well and truly fsck'd.

Oh, very lastly, I though the system was supposed to ignore search fields?
p43, para2 Alex, I'm assuming this is the basis of contact with Google's lawyers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

not a sofening, mearly a known fact that thread is being closely monitored and many posts echoed here on CF, its a simple PR trick to keep the lights on and look like they are being fair.

lets face it the mere fact he had to say "We won't be deleting links about or discussion of this document" means they have been doing so at other times, and if you beleave the regular users there it appears this and other options (banning and moving posts etc)have been used time and again!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yeah i know the forum is being tightly monitored as one of the users is on a final warning and he posts over here as well. but mark w has been strangly silent of late and no PR rubbish from the other BT guy adam whats his name

i agree they seem to be trying not to crack down to much so as not to be seen to orwellian and bring out the thought police

i think BT are still hoping to bring in webwise and that the reduced revenues will more than offset the lose or revenue of users leaving due to this spy system just not the level they hoped for .

i would like to see the BT balance sheet entries for income from phorm and income from broadband sales for present and six months time, as well as the % of users who actually opt in and stay opted in for more than a few weeks

any one over here an investor, can you request that info as an investor?

can you ask at the agm

1: for projected profit from webwise and how the opt-in requirement has affected that projection

2: cost of the trials and setup of the webwise system, including costs associated with the redesign to allow for the opt-in

3: what is the projected loss of income from users leaving BT due to webwise being implimented

legit questions for an AGM i believe

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many of the major anti-virus applications are negotiable on commercial applications. They are reluctant to classify the products of a "legitimate" commercial entity as malware. Particularly when both companies/corporations trade in the same country. The Sony rootkit debacle was one example of that. Several AVs knew about it and didn't classify it as malware until it got a lot of negative publicity.

I'm hoping negative publicity will do something similar with Phorm, NebuAd and the rest of the wannabes. It's the same companies that were found to be "stealth install" malware purveyors 2 or 3 years ago that are suddenly selling a new "commercially" acceptable "solution". I hate management-speak.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is an article due out in ComputerActive today, I won't have a chance to get into town and pick it up, but I am pretty sure it should be on the shelves today. There will also be a longer article on ComputerActive's web site some time this afternoon.

Also I believe it is tomorrow that an article gets published in the Economist so keep an eye out for that one too.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anybody ever comment here?

http://www.lse.co.uk/shareprice.asp?...sd0.001_(reg_s)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To be quite frank its desturbing the way things are moving.

Mobile phones, internet. Wait did you see the cable conference recently a few new cable boxes can target advertising to that user.

Also something which I found out about how the GPS sat navs systems work.

Turns out some makes of car manufacturers agreed for some time to have a GPS system placed in the cars such as BMW, vauxall and they track those cars. Those cars are then monitored and when they are stuck in jams or slow moving ithe company which provides the TMC traffic data flags the problems and then send out those tmc data. I think they also use mobile phones too to help collate this information. As well using sensors in the roads to compile traffic issues and Highways agency list of roadworks.

So its not always a bad thing monitoring but certain monitoring is blatantly intrusive. I would be very worried also about the next gen cable boxes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I emailed Mark W forum moderator last night to ask for an official moderator response on how we dealt with the document. Given that it is a leaked BT document and some of us have moderation final warnings on our Beta forum records with regard to Webwise, I wanted to get either official approval to link and quote from the document, or official refusal (which would be equally valuable for it's newsworthiness!)

I'm grateful for the official response from Mark W and have posted my thanks on BT beta forums along with a detailed summary of the key (non-technical) points, with page numbers and quotes - to make it more accessible to the boss eyed and wearers of varifocals.
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...ID=24906#24906

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

one of many in the near future i hope , this might inspire the insiders with access to also have a root through the records and pas them along to Alexander too, some VM ,CPW,and even 121/phorm if there are any good people that want to help uphold the users rights with access there.

come on annonymouse readers, please dig deep and find and reproduce those other smoking gun documants that are there for the taking...

perhaps even the 3rd party PR firms have some interesting related documents? ;)

---------- Post added at 11:45 ---------- Previous post was at 11:37 ----------

more than that it puts "121Media" and their "conducted an initial cookie drop exercise" directly in the frame, and BT as their accomplice to this act ,see Alexanders PDF paper for several choices of act broken etc.

---------- Post added at 11:52 ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 ----------

LOL ;) , yes it can be a bit of a slug, the best way to do it is open a digg page ,log in, then open the required page in a seperate page to be sure the system knows your loged in , that worked for me when its going real slow...:)

---------- Post added at 11:58 ---------- Previous post was at 11:52 ----------

and Current.Tv'ed
http://current.com/items/89001700_th...acts_in_8_days

no sign of a cableforum news as yet though, Mick? :confused:
and other than one Spy Blog entry on the main world wide news wires theres still nothing there, we need the cable forum news post to get it there......someone write one up and pass it to the CF mod's to put up...:shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Was the initial cookie drop just for the people they were intending to trial, all BT users, or for everybody?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that was an interesting comment by +Zer0Day
http://www.neowin.net/forum/index.ph...st&p=589456673

"
Wow, if this true, and I have my doubts until I see the document myself or its reported in are reliable media outlet, site owners have the right to be ****ed. BT sticking their ads in without permission, isn't that interception of communication, and isn't making a modification to communication illegal?
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am speculating here but I am presuming all BT retail customers since the trials had not begun yet and BT have stated they have no idea who was involved in the trials, so in my mind I don't see how it could have been predetermined.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

direct URL please.....?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I imagine it would have affected anyoone visiting those "popular 3rd party websites" and the estimate in the report was that of their 10,000 triallists, 7,000 were successfully seeded with the cookie. I imagine one would have to project upwards to work out how many people overall got those cookies - but then that is happening all the time anyway. On it's own it isn't so heinous (although a site should declare it's cookie policy - hopefully these 3rd party popular sites did have a cookie policy that users could access), but when you see the admission in the document that it was being done to subvert the BT T&C's it becomes very damning indeed and I'm looking forward to seeing a BT director explain it on TV (or more preferable, in front of a Parliamentary committee - one with Lord Northesk on it?, and then eventually, in front of a jury).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

direct URL please...?

this thread is suposed to be the definative guide to Phorm and the Phormetts (hence why i invite everyone here to read and contribute).

we really need to be filling in the direct URLs and a section of the post if its different to the original linked stories so we can decide to read on, or click and divert at the time of reading etc...