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-   -   PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ignored (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33709537)

1andrew1 20-11-2020 14:13
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36059044)
What's wrong with criticising people who have done something incorrectly?
It's called whataboutery as you're trying to derail the debate.

nomadking 20-11-2020 14:27
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36059046)
It's called whataboutery as you're trying to derail the debate.
Vague undefined issues vs clear defined issues. I'm not the one ducking the real issues.
The report says she wasn't supported by the department. this is classed as bullying by industrial tribunals all the time.
Have the snowflakes in the civil service never been criticised for bad work before now?

Hugh 20-11-2020 14:28
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
What about the other two departments where she was reported as bullying staff?

There’s a huge difference in being ‘direct’ and ‘giving direction", and bullying.

Resorting to bullying & intimidation is not the type of the leadership or behaviour anyone should sanction or endorse. In an era where political conviction is ridiculed for the comfort of conformity & compliance, its a shame such little respect is shown to the views of others.

Sephiroth 20-11-2020 14:32
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36059037)
So you don't believe in the ministerial code of conduct then?.
It has to work both ways. If civil servants push their minister over the edge in terms of reaction ...

Are you deliberately ignoring this element?

denphone 20-11-2020 14:37
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36059051)
It has to work both ways. If civil servants push their minister over the edge in terms of reaction ...

Are you deliberately ignoring this element?
l am not ignoring any element as the clear fact remains that the Home Secretary broke the ministerial code.

Are you denying that?

1andrew1 20-11-2020 14:37
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Worth noting that it's unprecedented that the Ministerial Standards Adviser's advice has been ignored.

nomadking 20-11-2020 14:41
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36059050)
What about the other two departments where she was reported as bullying staff?

There’s a huge difference in being ‘direct’ and ‘giving direction", and bullying.

Resorting to bullying & intimidation is not the type of the leadership or behaviour anyone should sanction or endorse. In an era where political conviction is ridiculed for the comfort of conformity & compliance, its a shame such little respect is shown to the views of others.
Specifically, what bullying and intimidation?
It's all just the usual ridiculously vague, "oh I feel bullied".

1andrew1 20-11-2020 14:46
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36059054)
It's all just the usual ridiculously vague, "oh I feel bullied".
Have you seen the report then?

nomadking 20-11-2020 14:51
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36059055)
Have you seen the report then?
Have you?
Link

Quote:
The home secretary has also become - justifiably in many instances - frustrated by the Home Office leadership's lack of responsiveness and the lack of support she felt in the Department for International Development (Dfid) three years ago.
The evidence is that this has manifested itself in forceful expression, including some occasions of shouting and swearing.
This may not be done intentionally to cause upset, but that has been the effect on some individuals.
That's just people who have been legitimately criticised just getting sulky.
Turfing somebody out of a chair because they are typing too slowly, is a straightforward sacking in any situation. Yet, not even a complaint.:confused:


Quote:
It defines bullying as intimidating or insulting behaviour that makes an individual feel uncomfortable, frightened, less respected or put down.
That's a vague definition and amounts to no more than "I don't like it".

1andrew1 20-11-2020 14:57
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nomadking (Post 36059056)
Have you?
No. But let's not try and derail the discussion.

You can't call the allegations ridiculously vague if you've not seen the report or full details of what the report says. They may be vague, they may be precise. You can't assume they're vague just to suit your argument. ;)

Sephiroth 20-11-2020 15:10
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36059052)
l am not ignoring any element as the clear fact remains that the Home Secretary broke the ministerial code.

Are you denying that?
Not denying that but your distaste for the Conservative government has led to your over-egging your argument. You have definitely ignored key elements to suit your politics.

See the published subset of the report.

https://assets.publishing.service.go...nt_Adviser.pdf

The mitigating paragraphs are:

Quote:
The Ministerial Code says “Ministers should be professional in their working relationships with the Civil Service and treat all those with whom they come into contact with consideration and respect.” I believe Civil Servants – particularly Senior Civil Servants – should be expected to handle robust criticism but should not have to face behaviour that goes beyond that. The Home Secretary says that she puts great store by professional, open relationships. She is action orientated and can be direct. The Home Secretary has also become – justifiably in many instances – frustrated by the Home Office leadership’s lack of responsiveness and the lack of support she felt in DfID three years ago. The evidence is that this has manifested itself in forceful expression, including some occasions of shouting and swearing. This may not be done intentionally to cause upset, but that has been the effect on some individuals.
And:

Quote:
The Civil Service itself needs to reflect on its role during this period. The Home Office was not as flexible as it could have been in responding to the Home Secretary’s requests and direction. She has – legitimately – not always felt supported by the department. In addition, no feedback was given to the Home Secretary of the impact of her behaviour, which meant she was unaware of issues that she could otherwise have addressed.


denphone 20-11-2020 15:17
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36059059)
[COLOR="Blue"]Not denying that but your distaste for the Conservative government has led to your over-egging your argument. You have definitely ignored key elements to suit your politics.
My view would be exactly the same whatever party it was as whether one likes or dislikes the Conservative government is utterly irrelevent in this matter as you seem to everytime you are challenged about something revert to the old straw man argument.

1andrew1 20-11-2020 15:25
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36059062)
My view would be exactly the same whatever party it was as whether one likes or dislikes the Conservative government is utterly irrelevent in this matter as you seem to everytime you are challenged about something revert to the old straw man argument.
I think some see political parties like football clubs - there to be loyally supported from childhood until death. I get the impression that Den, like me, takes a neutral stance and will criticise any party and its behaviour. Right now, it's the Conservative Parry in power so understandably, they will come in for more criticism and appreciation when they get things right.

But bullying should not be a party political issue in any case. It's wrong whoever perpetrates it.

Sephiroth 20-11-2020 15:43
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 36059062)
My view would be exactly the same whatever party it was as whether one likes or dislikes the Conservative government is utterly irrelevent in this matter as you seem to everytime you are challenged about something revert to the old straw man argument.
What are you on about? I've quoted chapter and verse from the published part of the report on Patel.

The only straw man is your attestation to impartiality in your first sentence.



---------- Post added at 15:43 ---------- Previous post was at 15:39 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36059063)
I think some see political parties like football clubs - there to be loyally supported from childhood until death. I get the impression that Den, like me, takes a neutral stance and will criticise any party and its behaviour. Right now, it's the Conservative Parry in power so understandably, they will come in for more criticism and appreciation when they get things right.

But bullying should not be a party political issue in any case. It's wrong whoever perpetrates it.
Andrew,

We seem to get on alright. Siding with Den in this case ignores the mitigations stated in the report. Den is intent only on the narrow piece of criticism of Patel and has so far ignored the mitigation.

Outright bullying would indeed be shameful. But that isn't so in this case.

Btw, I'm not a Patel fan. All wind and no results to date. Even Boris is doing better - at least on one issue!

denphone 20-11-2020 15:51
Re: PM's adviser on ministerial code resigns over his advice on Priti Patel being ign
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36059067)
[COLOR="Blue"]What are you on about? I've quoted chapter and verse from the published part of the report on Patel.

The only straw man is your attestation to impartiality in your first sentence.
The clear proof is the Home Secretary broke the ministerial code which you seem to be denying and which is something which you conveniently did not quote from the report.


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