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Re: Will Scotland Leave the UK?
Good humour London Road
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Why should people be allowed to vote for an "environment" which they are not part of and has no direct affect on them? Some countries(eg US) allow it, but that doesn't make it right.
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---------- Post added at 19:23 ---------- Previous post was at 19:10 ---------- Assumptions?...have you never made assumptions in your life before? One would argue that you need to negotiate first with parties involved to get the answer first. As you will know, the UK government is not playing ball and would rather negotiate after the vote. Putting this tac to the side, the only result can be an assumption. Is the snp's assumption based on that EU would accept Scotland due the independent wealth of the country it would bring to the EU and to the UK. I mean, its not like we're in the EU already :rolleyes: Ironic that Chris's poster states we don't meet EU reg's? [INSERT EVIDENCE HERE] Aye...and what a time for the Mayor of London to compare himself to Thatcher. You couldn't write this :) |
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The whole SNP side of this seems to rely on everyone giving an independent scotland what it wants under the conditions it wants which doesn't seem a very safe bet to me. End of the day stay or go it is not going to affect me massively but i have a nasty feeling leaving is going to have drastic affects for the people of scotland and i don't want to see things worse for them then they have too be. Maybe i am missing something but why exactly does alex salmond believe he can get everything his way is he that naive or just stupid i have myy own opinion of the man from what i have seen but always good to ask others.
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The problem with these sort of things is that they are major constitutional matters that a simple passing of another law cannot change back. They have to be done with a long term view and with enough of a consensus and in a non-partisan way, that the majority don't complain in the future.
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I'd imagine most sensible people realise the UK is far stronger as a union and would be fully behind a NO vote. |
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But we have been waiting over a decade for the UK to make us stronger. The reailty is that they have made the UK weaker, poorer and a laughing stock of the advanded comparable contries of this fine world. One example would be recently downgraded credit rating. Does no one remeber DC's speach this time last year stating how he will get hard will energy companies, we will stop the hikes, etc... Low and behold more hikes, which will continue year after year. In a decades time we will be paying probs £2.50 for litre petrol, under a pound for a kw of lecy and so on. Seriously when does the buck stop? Yeah, Scotland will be stronger in the UK, but only if the UK works correctly, efficently and changes alot of policies. |
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:D
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Some of the Cybernat comments below this article are priceless. |
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So I suppose the 'expert opinion' that the UK would jump into a currency union with a newly independent peoples republic of Scotland will be filed away with the ability to join the EU while picking and choosing what to take and the other outlandish claims of a post separation utopia.
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You have to wonder what 'private discussions' Fat Aleck has actually had regarding the currency, and what was really said. Mind you, you could repeat that statement, substituting the word 'currency' for just about any topic relevant to the separatist cause ...
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:rofl:
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That advert that attacks the man and ignore the issues, smacks of desperation to me.
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We won't be leaving the UK with the vote, we're not all idiotic enough to follow those lunatics. The whole thing needs at least one Spitting Image episode.
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ICM/ Scotland on Sunday
Stated preference Yes 46% No 54% All respondents Yes 37% No 44% Undecided 19% ALEX Salmond is within reach of victory in the independence referendum, according to an exclusive poll showing that support for the cause has grown dramatically by five percentage points over the last four months. The largest swing towards a Yes vote recorded so far in the campaign is revealed today in an ICM survey for Scotland on Sunday, which has found that support for independence has grown from 32 per cent to 37 per cent since September. The surge in those backing Yes was accompanied by a corresponding drop in No support by five percentage points from 49 per cent in September to 44 per cent currently. The poll also found that when the 19 per cent who said they didn’t know how they would vote were excluded, support for Yes is at 46 per cent compared with 54 per cent who said they would vote No. There was more good news for Yes Scotland, when the “don’t knows” were pressed further on their views on independence. When they disclosed how they were “most likely” to vote, the results were factored into the equation and the pollsters found that support for independence stood at 47 per cent compared with 53 per cent in favour of No. The figures represent the largest backing for Yes to be recorded in an independently-commissioned survey and are the first clear sign that support for breaking up the UK is growing after months of stagnating polls. Were the progress recorded over the last four months to be replicated in the eight months remaining until the September 18 referendum, the first minister could succeed in his dream of creating an independent Scotland. The poll of more than 1,000 over-16s was conducted by ICM for Scotland on Sunday between Tuesday and Friday. Last night, the Yes campaign suggested that the launch of the Scottish Government’s white paper offering a blueprint for independence in November has resulted in a game-changing bounce for #independence. Blair Jenkins, chief executive of Yes Scotland, said: “A potential Yes vote of 47 per cent at this stage is an excellent place to be with eight months to go. It demonstrates very clearly that we are getting our message across and that momentum is very much on our side. “The poll represents a very significant swing to Yes and shows that we need just over a 3 per cent swing to take the lead. It is particularly encouraging that there is a five-point increase in support from women and a four-point rise in the number of people who believe independence will be good for the economy is also a welcome shift in our favour. “We know that the more people learn about the benefits of independence the more likely they are to vote Yes. “People are now also carefully weighing up the consequences and costs of a No vote and, as a result, support for Yes increases. The referendum is about two choices. One is sticking with a Westminster system that isn’t working for Scotland. The other is a unique opportunity to make decisions that match our own needs and priorities, to better use our vast wealth and resources for the benefit of all people in Scotland and to build a fairer country of which we can all be proud.” A spokesman for Better Together, the pro-Union campaign, said: “Despite Alex Salmond spending millions of pounds of taxpayers’ money, the majority of people in Scotland don’t want to trade the strength and security of the UK for the risk and uncertainty of independence. We will campaign tirelessly between now and September to convince those who have yet to make up their mind that we are stronger and better together. This poll is a message that there can be no complacency from those who support Scotland remaining in the UK.” Plans to increase childcare provision for working mothers were at the heart of the white paper, a move that was seen as a bid to make independence more attractive to women. The SNP’s failure to win over women has long been seen as an Achilles’ heel of the party, yet today’s poll shows that female support has grown significantly. The percentage of women prepared to vote Yes has grown from 28 per cent in September to 33 per cent. The economy also emerged as a key issue and is another area in which Yes Scotland makes progress. In September, 31 per cent of those polled by ICM thought that independence would benefit the economy. Today that figure has increased to 35 per cent. The percentage of people who felt that independence would be bad for the economy has also decreased, from 48 per cent to 42 per cent. The SNP has argued that independence would offer the chance to create a more equal society in Scotland. According to the poll, the proportion of people who believe that there would be less inequality in an independent Scotland has increased from 27 per cent to 31 per cent. Those who believed that there would be more inequality rose slightly from 20 per cent to 21 per cent. Those who thought independence would make no difference to inequality fell from 34 per cent to 31 per cent. Better Together has made much of the uncertainty over pensions that it claims would result from the dismantling of the UK. But the poll revealed that the percentage of people who believe that they would have a higher pension in an independent Scotland has increased from 16 per cent to 20 per cent. A recurring criticism of the Better Together campaign has been that it is failing to set out a positive vision of what would happen to Scotland in the event of a No vote. Labour and the Conservatives have established commissions to look at whether the Scottish Parliament should be given more powers within the UK. Both parties are due to publish their findings in the spring. The poll found that the percentage of those who were resisting constitutional change remained constant on 28 per cent. Whereas those who believed Holyrood should become responsible for taxation and welfare increased from 59 per cent to 64 per cent. John Curtice: Best news on voting intentions the Yes campaign has ever had TODAY’S ICM poll is the best polling news the Yes side has had yet in the referendum campaign. Once the Don’t Knows are excluded, 46 per cent think they will vote Yes in September; 54 per cent No. This is the highest Yes tally in any independently commissioned poll so far. It represents a six-point swing to Yes since last September, the biggest yet in a campaign in which the polls have been remarkably stable. True, there is one word of caution. The swing is entirely confined to those aged 44 and under. All pollsters, including ICM, find it more difficult to get younger voters to answer their questions. Consequently, their estimates of how such voters will behave are more likely to change randomly from one poll to the next. Even so, there are signs the swing is underpinned by something real. And in line with the message from the Scottish Social Attitudes survey last week, what emerges is that the answer to “What will determine the eventual outcome in September?” is simply: “It’s the economy, stupid.” In September only 31 per cent thought independence would be good for the economy, while 48 per cent reckoned it would be bad. Now 35 per cent reckon independence would be beneficial while 42 per cent feel it would be deleterious. That represents a five-point swing towards a more optimistic view. Meanwhile, people’s perceptions are clearly fundamental to their decision whether to vote Yes or No. No less than 88 per cent of those who think the economy would be better under independence expect to vote Yes, while 87 per cent of those who reckon it would be worse belong to the No camp. None of the other perceptions tracked by ICM has either shifted as much or obviously matters so much. True, the proportion who think there would be less inequality in an independent Scotland – one of the Yes side’s key claims – has increased by four points from 27 per cent to 31 per cent. But the proportion who believe it would be more unequal has edged up a point too, to 21 per cent. That means on this issue the swing is just 1.5 per cent. At the same time, only 63 per cent of those who believe there would be less inequality in an independent Scotland think they will vote Yes, while 63 per cent of those who feel there would be more inequality are inclined to vote No. Both figures are lower than the equivalent ones for the economy. Meanwhile, the proportion who think pensions would be higher under independence is up four points from 16 per cent to 20 per cent. The proportion who believe they would be lower is down two points to 23 per cent – a swing of three points. But having a rosy view of the prospects for pensions is an even less powerful recruiting sergeant for the Yes side. Only 58 per cent of those who reckon pensions would be higher think they will vote Yes – though 75 per cent of those who think they would be lower anticipate voting No. The lesson for the Yes side is clear. Their hopes of winning the referendum rest on their ability to win the economic debate. They may now be a little closer to doing so. • John Curtice is Professor of Politics, Strathclyde University http://www.scotsman.com/news/politic...poll-1-3281655 |
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... meanwhile, back on planet Earth, the Treasury once again insists that a currency union with an independent Scotland is "highly unlikely" and Scotland needs a "Plan B" ...
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Desperate measures eh,let's get stuck into those Jocks with our hockey sticks Jenkins.
http://www.heraldscotland.com/mobile...13aba9a9cfacce A FOREIGN Office department ostensibly set up to promote the Scottish Government's interests is being used against it in the independence referendum, diplomatic cables have revealed. |
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So, the "devolution unit" is acting in the interests of devolution, rather than separation? Doing exactly what it says on the tin, it seems to me. Good.
By the way, do please keep up the crude English caricatures. The more the ugly heart of separatism is revealed, the more people will be turned off it. |
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The various polls that have been conducted throughout the past 24 months have shown significant swings back and fourth. All I know for sure is nothing is for sure.
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800...0/836/swm8.jpg |
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I will never vote Yes. Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know. We are far safer together. People seem to think it is between Scotland & England. I have family in England who had to leave Scotland to get work , It is a pity they cannot get the vote. and like me they would vote NO
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... because nothing says "FREEDOM!" quite like surrendering your fiscal sovereignty on day one ... |
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Not sure if I should post this, it hasn't been leaked to the press yet, but I have obtained an exclusive picture of Alex Salmond after today's speech was made.
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I think the SNP have only made matters harder for themselves. They're promising too much and skeptical Scots aren't going to be won over by hearing that there won't be any problems, that there will be lower taxes, better pensions and better public services. If they were more honest then they would be easier to trust. Instead Salmond is coming across as a dodgy salesman making claims that are too good to be true, because they are.
He also doesn't seem to have great confidence in the Scot's desire to be Independent. A lot of his white paper is based on the idea that things will remain the same, same monarchy, same currency, fee movement back and forth and so on. If the Scottish want these things they can already have them, it's called the United Kingdom. Their whole prospectus for Independence simply reads like a particularly disingenuous manifesto for a General Election rather than a vision for a new country. |
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That's the whole idea. He knows the Scottish electorate won't go for what his activists really want - not now, not ever - so he's trying to sell separation by making it fluffy and friendly and really no different to the way things are now, except without nasty Westminster.
Had the Eurozone not blown up he might even have got away with it. Unfortunately for him, just across the channel we have a real, live example of what happens when economies that share a common currency without common fiscal control get out of kilter. He cant sell Scotland independence based on the Euro, because brand Euro is badly tainted. And, irony of ironies, he can't sell independence based on a Sterling zone because, again, of the Euro. The refrain we will hear Better Together repeat endlessly between now and September is this: "In short, a durable, successful currency union requires some ceding of national sovereignty." - Mr M. Carney, Governor, Bank of England. Any independence built on a shared currency with England is not really independence at all. So why vote for it? If we're going to keep the currency, we might as well keep our influence over the way it is run. |
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If the land of my birth gains independence in September, will the Orkneys and the Shetlands go back to Norway?
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I would personally love to hear Eck forced to explain why Shetland should not have independence from a remote Government it has little influence over or stake in. :D |
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I've never read so much drivel by the unionists on here as I have today,you so called Scots are traitors to your nation,the English nation which pillaged/raped and even killed Scots just for wearing tartan will be proud tae have you,why don't you all head south asap.
Don't come back!!! http://www.scottish-history.com/kilt.shtml |
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Oh the irony of an Englishman calling Scots traitors because they look at things a bit more deeply then the usual puddle depth the SNP like things to be.
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He's also assuming that everyone who posts here is Scottish..
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That'll confuse Jimi as much as me being a Celtic supporting Unionist.... and I'm not unique. Thank God it's only a small minority of us who can link how to vote to what football team is supported. |
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I read/heard a while ago that if Scotland leaves the UK it'll become Europe's poorest county and will only survive because it will get handouts from the eu.
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My wife is scottish (living in England with me) Her family (living in Scotland) and of a similar age to 'Jimi' don't share his views. Whilst they don't especially *like* the English, they certainly know what's best for them and being typical cautious sceptical Scottish folk, they think Mr Salmond's days are numbered, and come the day of the vote he'll become an amusing footnote in history. Whilst I realise that it's not a representation of the Scottish people as a whole. I can say that the only exception to this viewpoint in their whole family is the 17 yr old who has some vague idea of Braveheart and suchlike (presumably why Salmond insisted the younger people had a say) Everyone over that age in the family will be voting to stay in the UK.
And yes sadly scottish people who live in Scotland do write like the Broons (god knows why) but I see it all the time on FB |
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I've lived here my entire life but my family is scattered all over Scotland, England, Ireland and yes the aforementioned evil Viking country Norway. We all think it's a ridiculous idea and view Salmond much the same as your Wife's family. A fool who will only get votes from other fools. We're proud of our heritage but to us we live in a region of the UK. When asked where we're from we say Scotland but it's no different that someone saying they are from Cumbria or Linconshire as far as i'm concerned. None of us were alive hundreds of years ago to be traitors. |
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Before you lot get back to ranting and raving again I'll let you know that up in Inverness many decent English folk having been subjected to disgraceful racist attacks. I've contacted the SNP directly and told them that this has tae stop,pronto,its a disgrace towards the Scottish nation,end of..... |
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http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavian_Scotland |
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There's no way us Taffs are allowing anyone to take that off us :D |
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Personally I feel that Salmond and the SNP are an embarassment to Scotland.
Also the 'White' paper for all it is is still pretty vague and doesn't detail things enough. It would be a very bad idea indeed to vote for independance. the countries of the UK all need each other and the support that comes with working together. |
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What happened in Scotland or any other country hundreds of years ago is neither here or there, it is today that matters, where we stand now and what the future holds for us.
I have many English cousins and I don't see why we have to put each other down. Alex is only in this to give him power and be in the history books, his sums do not add up and he is a disgrace to Scotland. |
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So what shall the rest of the union call it's self I wonder when this event comes to pass?
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I don't think so Jimmie. But we all have our own opinion.
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(Just after Scotland win the World Cup....) |
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Apparently, one of the (wan o' ra) secret codicils in the white paper is compulsory repatriation of all Sassenachs, and the (ane ra) redistribution of the homes to (auf ra hames tae) Scots who want to (tae) return home from (hame frae) the Diaspora.... :D
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Just a short history lesson - it was the Scotties (from North Ireland) who invaded Westen Scotland (nee Pictland) and they absorbed into one country Scotland. Where have all the native Pictish people gone? Then the Normans invaded England who then in turn invaded Scotland. We don't mind are noisy neighbours who live above us honestly.
Shoot all our politicians for it is they who keep dividing us for there own gain and fame. |
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First of all,I'll give you this wee link....
http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...orwegians-fund Then there's this.... An independent Scotland could become the richest country on earth. I’m not joking. It has all the necessary ingredients. Let me explain. Each year the World Bank, the IMF and the CIA each independently publish a list of the richest countries in the world - as measured by GDP per capita at purchasing power parity. http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...h-9096120.html -------------------------------------------Have an nice evening.:) [ADMIN EDIT - Please do not post entire articles then place the link next to it. Do one or the other] |
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I did not know that there are 800,000 Scots living in England who cannot vote for or against independence.
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Of course they can't vote, they above all know the value of living in a single, integrated country called the UK and Alex can't have them expressing that at the ballot box. He needs to keep the vote as narrow and parochial as he can.
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A nice little quotable quote from Jeremy Warner in the Telegraph this morning:
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Vote NO in September. |
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Definitely will not be the richest country, We will be destroyed ,
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Salmond actually reminds me of Gordon Brown at the point where his delusions of greatness and his 'rightful' place in history prevented him from accepting that his failed economic policy was unravelling before his very eyes. Hitler ordering vast non existent armies into battle from a bunker in Berlin comes to mind. |
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I myself lived in England from the age of 5-20 and couldn't wait to be able to move back here. We moved as my Dad got offered a very good job. Also no one is deserting Scotland, England is part of the UK so its not really a foreign country like Spain of France is. They are still Scottish and can return at anytime so should still have a say in what happens to their place of birth. After all their passports list their nationality as British. |
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I've still not made up my mind if 'jimi' is a troll - but I'm leaning towards it.
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Out of interest does anyone know what Scotlands GDP is? |
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Apart from the £35 billion the English tax payer gives to Scotland here is the facts:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-24866266 |
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You're welcome. Labour has wrecked the NHS so badly in Wales you need free prescriptions by way of compensation. ;)
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Works for us :D
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If only ignore list worked for quotes as well then i'd never need to read drivel again from someone trying so hard to be scottish and failing miserably.
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Still, the more people who just ignore, the less quoted drivel there is and the better the result. Trolls hate just being ignored. :D ---------- Post added at 18:51 ---------- Previous post was at 18:01 ---------- Quote:
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