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-   -   The state benefits system mega-thread. (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33692770)

Arthurgray50@blu 01-04-2013 11:49

The state benefits system mega-thread.
 
http://news.sky.com/story/1072240/we...enefits-fairer

Today See's all the changes the government are bringing in, and yet again it will be the poor and the vulnerable.

And yet Nothing to hit the rich who can afford it, Mansion Tax, Garden Tax ( On the size of there garden, just like the Poll Tax). The rich can afford to pay in tax, then anyone else.

660.000 people that live in social housing will be hit each week by this Bedroom Tax, now there is even talk of a Granny Tax.

Its is not fair that the poor and vulnerable get hit constantly by this disgraceful government, an yet the rich can get everything they want to satisfy a sick government that just want to line there own pocket.

I can see ration books coming out next, what we are allow to buy and even with the poor, instead of money, they will get vouchers to take to a local store thats being paid by the governemnt, to get food.:mad::mad:

Chris 01-04-2013 11:58

re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Benefit changes affect poor people because poor people claim benefits. This is not rocket science.

Rich people are paying vastly more tax now than they were 5 years ago, but this does not have any radical effect on them because they are rich. This, also, is not rocket science.

You could expropriate every rich man's bank account as they have done in Cyprus and share out the proceeds evenly among the whole population and it wouldn't cure poverty. In fact all it would do would harm the spending and earning potential of the very people who pay the most tax and therefore contribute the most to the benefits bill. If you want proof of this, take a look back at the old eastern bloc, where everyone was rewarded equally regardless of what they did. The result was not nations full of happy equal people. The result was nations full of impoverished, frightened people who eventually overthrew the system by force.

Some people are rich, some people are poor. That's life.

Russ 01-04-2013 12:07

re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Found this for you Arthur https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=LVltOSC0JMQ

mertle 01-04-2013 12:30

Re: Poor effected - The Rich not effected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35555172)
Benefit changes affect poor people because poor people claim benefits. This is not rocket science.

Rich people are paying vastly more tax now than they were 5 years ago, but this does not have any radical effect on them because they are rich. This, also, is not rocket science.

You could expropriate every rich man's bank account as they have done in Cyprus and share out the proceeds evenly among the whole population and it wouldn't cure poverty. In fact all it would do would harm the spending and earning potential of the very people who pay the most tax and therefore contribute the most to the benefits bill. If you want proof of this, take a look back at the old eastern bloc, where everyone was rewarded equally regardless of what they did. The result was not nations full of happy equal people. The result was nations full of impoverished, frightened people who eventually overthrew the system by force.

Some people are rich, some people are poor. That's life.

flip side is they paying more tax because workers getting shafted though. What do they expect when they hold all the wealth.

Dont the top 10% own 90% uk wealth or something obscene stat.

Therefore they want the money then they should pay for it simples. Dont want pay highest tax then dont take 90% of the money. Better wages means less burden on themselves in taxes.

Motto these rich is you cannot both possess your cake and eat it. You either distribute your wealth to better wages more jobs result less reliance on welfare, or you pay taxes so government supports your weak wages and lack of private sector jobs. We cant do both what rich masters want we either go down the public sector jobs supported wages with them paying higher taxes to cover. They bite bullet give us jobs and the wages to cover the standard of living.

That crux issue this government not interested in educating these people some home truths.

Chris 01-04-2013 13:03

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
You're putting the cart before the horse. Frank Field made this argument at the end of the 90s but Liebour chose to open the immigration floodgates, depress wages as a result (wage levels being a function of supply and demand, just the same as everything else) and silence the non-working indigenous population with benefits. Now it's coming home to roost but the Left seems unable to recognise the contradiction at the heart of its argument. If you keep benefit levels up, then you simultaneously disincentivise a certain part of the population from working at all, while also subsidising low wages through the tax credit system.

IDS's reforms so far are aimed at making work more attractive than worklessness. They have also - slowly - begun to erode the real terms value of in-work benefits. We are on a very long haul here, but where we need to get to is a situation where welfare helps those that cannot help themselves and provides incentives to those that can, with a nudge in the right direction.

tizmeinnit 01-04-2013 13:09

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35555189)
You're putting the cart before the horse. Frank Field made this argument at the end of the 90s but Liebour chose to open the immigration floodgates, depress wages as a result (wage levels being a function of supply and demand, just the same as everything else) and silence the non-working indigenous population with benefits. Now it's coming home to roost but the Left seems unable to recognise the contradiction at the heart of its argument. If you keep benefit levels up, then you simultaneously disincentivise a certain part of the population from working at all, while also subsidising low wages through the tax credit system.

IDS's reforms so far are aimed at making work more attractive than worklessness. They have also - slowly - begun to erode the real terms value of in-work benefits. We are on a very long haul here, but where we need to get to is a situation where welfare helps those that cannot help themselves and provides incentives to those that can, with a nudge in the right direction.

but there are still only one job for every 5 unemployed where are they going to magically get all these jobs needed? where are they going to magically get all the smaller properties needed by families who want to move who can not afford the loss of housing benefit? Its ok giving them a nudge but for many there is nowhere for them to go after they are nudged or kicked as some feel it?

martyh 01-04-2013 13:10

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris (Post 35555189)
and provides incentives to those that can, with a nudge in the right direction.

For the socialists amongst us that sentence should read "and forces people to work and support themselves against their will".

tizmeinnit 01-04-2013 13:11

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by martyh (Post 35555193)
For the socialists amongst us that sentence should read "and forces people to work and support themselves against their will".

there are not the jobs to go around they are urinating in the wind so in effect you should add and forces people further and deeper into poverty too

Hugh 01-04-2013 13:11

Re: Poor effected - The Rich not effected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 35555184)
flip side is they paying more tax because workers getting shafted though. What do they expect when they hold all the wealth.

Dont the top 10% own 90% uk wealth or something obscene stat.

Therefore they want the money then they should pay for it simples. Dont want pay highest tax then dont take 90% of the money. Better wages means less burden on themselves in taxes.

Motto these rich is you cannot both possess your cake and eat it. You either distribute your wealth to better wages more jobs result less reliance on welfare, or you pay taxes so government supports your weak wages and lack of private sector jobs. We cant do both what rich masters want we either go down the public sector jobs supported wages with them paying higher taxes to cover. They bite bullet give us jobs and the wages to cover the standard of living.

That crux issue this government not interested in educating these people some home truths.

The actual figures (latest available) are
Quote:

The top 10 per cent in the income distribution received 31 per cent of income in 2006/8 whereas the top 10 per cent in the wealth distribution received 44 per cent of wealth
Link

martyh 01-04-2013 13:17

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35555192)
but there are still only one job for every 5 unemployed where are they going to magically get all these jobs needed? where are they going to magically get all the smaller properties needed by families who want to move who can not afford the loss of housing benefit? Its ok giving them a nudge but for many there is nowhere for them to go after they are nudged or kicked as some feel it?

Because when the markets pick up again and jobs become more plentiful people will be happy to give up benefits instead of staying on them because life is easier on benefits .

What most don't seem to understand is that the government accept that the recession is going to go on for a good few years more which means that the benefit bill will only rise and tax receipts will fall and borrowing will increase .IDS has to look at this and make sure we can afford a benefits system in 4,5,6 years time or however long it takes .The choice is a reduced benefit system for everyone now or practically no benefit system in 10yrs time

Sirius 01-04-2013 13:22

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ (Post 35555176)

I find this one better

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLNrLI3OBwg

Chris 01-04-2013 13:26

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tizmeinnit (Post 35555192)
but there are still only one job for every 5 unemployed where are they going to magically get all these jobs needed? where are they going to magically get all the smaller properties needed by families who want to move who can not afford the loss of housing benefit? Its ok giving them a nudge but for many there is nowhere for them to go after they are nudged or kicked as some feel it?

Jobs will be created as the economy recovers, and it will be those with the capital at their disposal that will be doing the job creating. In the meantime unemployment is already dropping steadily caused in large measure by a lot of people taking responsibility for themselves and becoming self employed.

The Left sniffs at many of these people and their efforts as 'non jobs', as if it is somehow shameful to choose work on almost any terms rather than worklessness and benefits. Nevertheless, as one of those self-employed people currently earning very little, I am confident that the groundwork I do now will pay dividends as the economy recovers. Of course I could rest on a sense of entitlement and decide to do stuff all until someone else takes responsibility for my life and creates me a job, but I'd rather not.

It's rotten for those riding the benefits wagon on the day the wheels finally fall off, but the day of reckoning was always coming. Those who set up the mess are mostly still in parliament and will be pleading for our votes in 2015 so they can 'rescue' us from the nasty Tories and their evil scheme to make the nation live within its means. I suggest we decline to give them what they want.

mertle 01-04-2013 13:28

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
but coalition not sorting it you think they are but aint.

The standard living too high this crux issue you got either drop it down or increase wages. Infact Chris osbourne just done oposite. Just anounced system keep ponzi housing scheme higher than ever. Moving few deck chairs on the titanic wont stop titanic hit the bottom sea. At some point we goto have government with bottle to tell rich the truth or crash our ponzi housing and capping rental charges.

Else only other way wages need to move up to support standard living. They think market forces will downgrade itself when its artificially being pumped. It wont therefore welfare will go up still at somepoint private sector will shed jobs as the demand wont be there. Any deleveraged of public spending takes money out of the economy its basic economics. Factor in the multiplyer and you tank the economy.

At some point osbourne will create that tipping point when jobs will get shed like wildfire. When it happens this country in trouble big trouble. welfare has always self righted when country thrives as jobs created. We have to solve pension issues and minimum wage problems to living wages. Later is major issue the pension crisis is been caused by bankers irresponsible speculating and brown raiding.

Agree labour was useless over this but they was and still ruled by idiots who support this neoliberal claptrap.

Chris 01-04-2013 13:37

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
I'm sorry Mertle but unreconstructed lefty hatred of those who have made a success of their lives is not going to fix anything. Some people are rich. That's life, so what?

We live in a capitalist economy with a fiat currency in which work results in wealth creation. Demanding that more of the existing wealth at the top of the pile is creamed off is not a sustainable solution. The sustainable solution is to get the people who are not working, doing work. This results in wealth creation and at the same time reduces a welfare bill that currently accounts for one third of government spending.

Gary L 01-04-2013 13:42

Re: Poor affected - The Rich not affected again - why?
 
Let's see how 2013 goes down in the history books for Britain.
easy date to remember. it's got the unlucky number 13 in it.

I predict crime is going to become an epidemic.
I might move to the countryside and pop back in now and again.


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