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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

flowrebmit 07-03-2008 22:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenheart (Post 34502534)
Nice piece on this at Bloomberg especially where a London based analyst states VM are really struggling, might be even more uphill now with the whole Phorm deal.

With VM saying that they want to concentrate on their BB business, and with the recent publicity of embarrassing privacy data loses by government departments, where was the common sense in the VM boardroom when they thought hey this Phorm spyware technology sounds like a good idea?

Traduk 07-03-2008 22:39

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
SMHarman,

I was of course aiming to highlight the spin :-) The reality is more usually along the lines that where adults or older children have access they do so on separate computers fed by routers. Saves all the endless fights about usage.

I cannot imagine the hoops that need to be jumped through to make web access child safe and the way my eldest daughter has implemented it is via perpetual postponement of provision of a PC to my grandson (9). My children got to cut their teeth on a Sinclair ZX :-)

flashpaul 07-03-2008 22:49

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I wonder if anyone's employer has a view on Phorm

I do some work from home and I am sure my employer won't want my browsing research
to be monitored in any way

I suspect that a non-phorm ISP policy may be introduced

Shaun 07-03-2008 22:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashpaul (Post 34502583)
I wonder if anyone's employer has a view on Phorm

I do some work from home and I am sure my employer won't want my browsing research
to be monitored in any way

I suspect that a non-phorm ISP policy may be introduced

I suspect your employer should be paying for a business ISP. ;)

SMHarman 07-03-2008 23:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashpaul (Post 34502583)
I wonder if anyone's employer has a view on Phorm

I do some work from home and I am sure my employer won't want my browsing research
to be monitored in any way

I suspect that a non-phorm ISP policy may be introduced

Well as long as you are VPN'ed to your office network and then using their data highway for internet access your ISP cannot monitor the traffic in the encrypted tunnel.

markt50 07-03-2008 23:04

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I think some of the answers being given by the Phorm people are being left deliberately vague, or are often being qualified with something on the end, much like a politician would do. For example, the standard reply when asked about 'If I opt out is it really switched off?' seems to be:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phorm
"When you opt out -- or switch the system off, it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP."

Source: http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

However when the register asked for further details on this it came to light that even when you opt out a mirror of the data is still sent to a 'Profiler':

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Register
So if I'm opted out, data passes straight between me and the website I'm visiting? It doesn't enter Phorm's systems at all?

MB: What happens is that the data is still mirrored to the profiler but the data digest is never made and the rest of the chain never occurs. It ought to be said that the profiler is operated by the ISP, not us.

Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rul/page3.html

And now I find the following on the BBC, this is an admittance that the 'Profiler' software is from Phorm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The BBC
Q: There are inconsistencies appearing. Phorm told The Register that data is still passed to the "Profiler" even if people opt-out, but apparently the "Profiler" is owned by the ISP, which is how they claim no personal data is sent to Phorm, as per the reply to the BBC.

A: This isn't inconsistent. The Profiler is owned by the ISP. If someone opts out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm.

Q: However, I would like to know who provides the software for the "Profiler" and if it's not written by the ISP, how does the ISP check that it does what it's meant to?

A: Phorm provides the software for the profiles, just like Cisco, for example, provides software for an ISP router. The ISP can see exactly what data is being passed in and out of its systems and has complete control over it.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, even if I opt out my data is mirrored and sent to a 'Profiler', this profiler is running Phorms 'Profiles' Software ? In what way is this being 100% switched off ? Also, is anybody else even more concerned that it now seems like the ISP's are allowing Phorms equipment and software to operate within the ISP network ?

Chris 07-03-2008 23:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 34502589)
I suspect your employer should be paying for a business ISP. ;)

I think he meant when using his home ISP to do work from home - as I have done in the past with other jobs. That said, I'm not sure Phorm is planning to sniff out VPN data from what I've read.

While I'm here, I should say my opinion on this whole thing is that all Phorm's assurances about user consent obtained 'via their ISP' isn't worth a hill of beans, because Phorm is well aware that the ISPs are planning to use an opt-in rather than an opt-out system to gain 'consent' from their victim-customers. Phorm is therefore complicit in this, no matter how hard it may wriggle and point the finger at the likes of Virgin and BT.

The ISPs are not going to implement an opt-in system because if they did, next to nobody would bother to opt in, and the whole process would become rather pointless and more to the point, would make them a whole lot less money.

Our best strategy here is to acknowledge the ISPs are not going to alter this policy, unless they are convinced the whole thing is making them so unpopular it's in their interests to totally abandon it.

In the meantime, the more we shout for customers to opt out, the better. It's the only weapon we have, and hopefully it will hit them in the pocket, which let's face it is the only place it really hurts if you inhabit the secluded alternate universe of the Virgin boardroom.

none 07-03-2008 23:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris T (Post 34502592)
While I'm here, I should say my opinion on this whole thing is that all Phorm's assurances about user consent obtained 'via their ISP' isn't worth a hill of beans, because Phorm is well aware that the ISPs are planning to use an opt-in rather than an opt-out system to gain 'consent' from their victim-customers. Phorm is therefore complicit in this, no matter how hard it may wriggle and point the finger at the likes of Virgin and BT.

The ISPs are not going to implement an opt-in system because if they did, next to nobody would bother to opt in, and the whole process would become rather pointless and more to the point, would make them a whole lot less money.

Our best strategy here is to acknowledge the ISPs are not going to alter this policy, unless they are convinced the whole thing is making them so unpopular it's in their interests to totally abandon it.

In the meantime, the more we shout for customers to opt out, the better. It's the only weapon we have, and hopefully it will hit them in the pocket, which let's face it is the only place it really hurts if you inhabit the secluded alternate universe of the Virgin boardroom.

:clap: totally agree with that. Its so spot on its making my eyes water :)

Just remember people, be prepared to vote with your wallets when it comes to crunch time.

No retreat No surrender.

flowrebmit 07-03-2008 23:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markt50 (Post 34502591)
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, even if I opt out my data is mirrored and sent to a 'Profiler', this profiler is running Phorms 'Profiles' Software ? In what way is this being 100% switched off ? Also, is anybody else even more concerned that it now seems like the ISP's are allowing Phorms equipment and software to operate within the ISP network ?

From a technical pov, I thought it was the most likely scenario (otherwise why would have needed the cooperation of the ISPs), so yes I was worried from when this news first broke, and I am sure lots of people with far greater network knowledge and experience can see the massive risks in letting an unproven company with a poor track record of spyware connect equipment into the heart of a network.

By the way, part of the reason that I could never trust Phorm's CEO is that he claims that there was nothing wrong with his spyware, he said he was just misunderstood and it was only adware! Software that installs without a users consent and knowledge, and then hides itself from virus scanning isn't the act of innocent software.

---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502594)
:clap: totally agree with that. Its so spot on its making my eyes water :)

Just remember people, be prepared to vote with your wallets when it comes to crunch time.

No retreat No surrender.

What if you live in an area far from a BT exchange and no LLU option? Dropping from 20Mb to whatever an ADSL can supply is tough...

bringerofnoise 07-03-2008 23:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
ChrisT's post is well written and speaks volumes

The missus is already looking at sky TV for price and if this goes ahead....i did'nt ever think i would say this but BE here i come, always been an advocate of NTL selling many people VM internet 'n i don't even work for em.

My question:will VM listen to customers or rely upon the non realizing customers to chase £.

none 08-03-2008 00:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Fresh off the press

I’ve knocked up a couple more anti-phorm sigs for those that may want a little more variety,

av
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Code:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1433/antiphormavqy6.jpg

sig
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Code:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4917/stopphormsigv2wv9.jpg
and

sig
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Code:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8130/phightphormsigv2rn8.jpg

Feel free to share them with as many folk as possible.

ynwa 08-03-2008 01:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have been annoyed with a lot of things NTL / Virgin have done over the years, with capping and so on. But this i wont have. I WILL be looking for another ISP. I already have a BT phone line in the house so it really will be no problem for me to move else where

---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:04 ----------

Bethere will be upgrading my exchange in June. A lot cheaper too, could be going with them :)

Shin Gouki 08-03-2008 01:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Virgin won't lose many customer's at all over this but they'll lose me.

I don't even have a BT phone line but i'm willing to pay for one now.

This is the last straw for me.

I just hpoe that this does'nt become the norm with ISP's in the future.

This whole situation is total and utter BS and i have no faith in those 3 ISP's or our government.

You just know this carbage is going down. :-(

Too much money for it not to and too many subscriber's who just don't know the score.

Tezcatlipoca 08-03-2008 01:49

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin Gouki (Post 34502651)

Too much money for it not too and to many subscriber's who just don't know the score.



That, I think, is the thing...


They & other ISPs will potentially be getting £££££ £Â£Â£Â£Â£ from this... will they really give a monkey's about what we think if they stand to make so much money from this?

And although there's a hell of a lot of anti-Phorm feeling here & on other forums, & some not exactly flattering press on some websites, I'd bet that the majority of customers simply will not know or care about it... they'll fall for the spin about targeted ads being beneficial, & they'll fall for the anti-phishing rubbish (not the main "benefit", & surely not really necessary for anyone with IE7 or Firefox etc.).

Sirius 08-03-2008 08:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 34502658)
That, I think, is the thing...


They & other ISPs will potentially be getting £££££ £Â£Â£Â£Â£ from this... will they really give a monkey's about what we think if they stand to make so much money from this?

And although there's a hell of a lot of anti-Phorm feeling here & on other forums, & some not exactly flattering press on some websites, I'd bet that the majority of customers simply will not know or care about it... they'll fall for the spin about targeted ads being beneficial, & they'll fall for the anti-phishing rubbish (not the main "benefit", & surely not really necessary for anyone with IE7 or FireFox etc.).

Remember also that Virgin Media have a habit that they picked up from Nthell, And that is they will announce something months and months before its ready. So in my opinion they will release the info now, let the complaints die down, Then change the AUP so they can sell your first and second born to the devil. This will also allow them to gauge via BT's roll out just how much of first and second born they can sell at one time.?


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