Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having just checked the VM logo is still not present on webwise yet it was when this all started so what the hell is going on. If VM had decided not to use the system i would have expected them to be shouting about it by now so thats not what is happening. Is this a devious attempt to hide the fact they are going to use it or is there something more going on and if there is can we please have something off of VM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the update, Captain!

Two thoughts sprang immediately to my mind:

1) The tone of the letter is very definitely "we will be doing this", and not "we're thinking of maybe doing this" - so that's bad.

2) The writer seems to be going out of his way to avoid addressing your specific instructions. Now this may just be because they've not finalized the way the service will be implemented yet, or it could be because they've sought legal advice on what they'd have to do if a customer issued them a specific DPA notice prohibiting them from routing any of that customer's data through Phorm-related equipment/software in their network, and the advice was "if the customer tells you that, you'll have to comply." So perhaps they're adopting a strategy of keeping quiet about that particular avenue?

More good news....
Phorm shares down another 9% today :)

...and....2 of the 3 Technology stories on the BBC website this afternoon are about Phorm....they were slow to get started, but it looks like Auntie is finally waking-up to how important this story is...the news ticker on the front page of BBC news currently reads "Phorm system "illegal" in the UK according to FIPR" :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Isn't publishing a letter in full against the Copyright of the Author or Company that the letter writer works for unless you've sought permission?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suspect its a brand issue. Brand placement is absolutely paramount to Virgin Companies, its almost a religion. I suspect that they have requested the removal of the logo until a firm agreement is made to adopt the system.

I'll stick my neck out further and suggest that they may well duck out of this for now. Customer feeling is running high, most of the feedback from here, DS and their own newsgroups would suggest that VM have underestimated the bad feeling this system has given birth to.

The fact that Neil Burkett was quoted in the Register as saying that he was revisiting this plan means that the wave of complaint has washed into the Directors field of view, and as the newly installed CEO he can't afford a small rebellion of BB customers heading to insugnificant ADSL rivals...it just isn't good for business.

Revenue from adverts on their portal sites will continue, they may even look at another up-coming alternative to Phorm. Sky are already doing this with their email accounts migrated to the Google (Gmail) system, one reason why Sky may well not get on board if their webmail platform brings in the bucks. I seem to remember VM trialling google mail on a limited basis, perhaps this may see fruition.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey, at least BT Retail have a forum in which they're willing to discuss the issue with their customers!
VM can't even be bothered to revise their three-week-old, error-ridden statement!

And, particularly as a Virgin Media employee, how do you feel about VM "stealing our personal information"?
Shouldn't you be calling for VM customers to leave too?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

if they in their original request for information made it known they were going to publish any response then No.

a simple 'i reserve the right to publish any response in part or whole' should be enough to cover that (if they dont reject that in response) in your letters it seems.

i have for instance, explicitly asked for, and receaved permission from 'the register' to re-post all or part of any story they put out, providing i link to the original, i dont make it a habit to include all the story as a rule though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Had the letter said "IN CONFIDENCE" or used some such similar wording then I would have paraphrased its contents. It didn't. In my view there is nothing in the letter which constitues requiring commercial confidentiality.

If the moderators feel otherwise then I will, of course, accept their judgement.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you check Kellargh's profile, you'll notice that he/she uses everyone but VM for his/her services. Given that VM employees usually get a discount on VM services, I think that speaks volumes ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Er...yeh, possibly, but I suspect down in terms of the overall market performance, not about what Phorm are doing themselves.

---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:57 ----------

Unless he doesn't live in a cabled part of Swansea. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're probably right, but we can always hope...

Point taken :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

dunno if this has been posted, but phorm is illegal apparently...Linkage

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's the opinion of the FIPR - apparently Kent Ertugrul has said he's happy for his company's claims that Phorm is legal to be tested in a UK court, so there may be a legal battle looming on the horizon - I wonder if the system will be suspended pending the result (assuming it launches soon)?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Link to similar article on El Reg
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03..._fipr_illegal/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here, here ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks, I guess I am just feeling a little bit more paranoid than usual.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just read the open letter to the Information Commissioners Office from the FIPR : http://www.fipr.org/080317icoletter.html
I think Mr. Ertugrul has a fight on his hands now...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as i like to view, free porn site's online.
will i get lot's of ads for free porn sites.
and maybee paid to view them,???

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apparently, they won't be carrying porn...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.fipr.org/080317icoletter.html

Excellent letter. Brilliant! It addresses the concerns that I, as a webowner of a members only forum, have. Actually, I think that the FIPR, in writing their letter, used the questions and worries that are expressed on both this thread and the BT forum one

One by one, the nails are being driven into the Phorm coffin.

The day we celebrate the funeral is getting nearer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Who runs a PR company confident enough to take on Sir Tim Berners-Lee regarding the internet and the FIPR regarding information policies? If you do, expect a call from Phorm tonight!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wonder if the new Phorm company feem toon is "Don't like Mondays" by the Boomtown Rats :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've put a reply together to Ian Woodham and I've mentioned Sir Tim, something along the lines of "Can Virgin Media show me someone more eminent than Sir Tim Berners-Lee who is arguing in favour of Phorm?"

Phorm isn't dead yet though, there's still some way to go before it's finished.

- @page { margin: 2cm } P { margin-bottom:*

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its truely amazing that VM have infact missed most of the flac ....

if neil was clever, he'd find a way out of the contract, that shouldnt be hard, after all you cant be held to a contract if its deemed to include illegal practices can you.

neil comes out with a statement we will not be taking this or any other profiling initative EVER,then the VM marketing monkeys can then hype up cable as the place to be.

you know it makes sense :dozey:, and he might even make a reasonable profit this quarter if he opens up the uptake with free installs, no deposit and first month free.

and dont forget to remove the one cable modem per account rule if you want even more profits

OC you might also think BT phone might do something along the same lines while Phorms hot, and introduce half price phone line rental.

forget half price re-connection ,make re-connection free, to get all those cable users onto your books to profit from later.

if they play it right it might even turn out good for the end users choice.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bt are in a perfect situation. They know that all those cable customers will need a BT line to be able to sign up with that PHORM free ADSL ISP

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

make sure you resend your DPA notice as a seperate bit of paper,in the evelope, and make the first line
THIS IS A DATA PROTECTION ACT NOTICE

also put that i reserve the right to republish ..... in the other letter etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I saw a little bit of breakfast news this morning on the BBC where they covered this.

They played a short interview with Sir Tim desparaging the whole phorm scam and followed it up with a quick chat with a person introduced as a "technical correspondent". On the whole, I thought he gave a good, none-technical overview of how the system was going to harvest all your personal surfing habbits and target you with adverts under the guise of offering phishing protecion. He gave some good examples of how this could easily affect your privacy, even though phorm claim otherwise, especially for those using a shared connection/pc. He pretty much said that he trusted neither phorm nor any isp that implemented the system.

The best bit came at the end, though, when he stated flat out that if BT introduced the system then he would change his isp immediately.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

is that online anywere, a direct URL would be good.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

hmm, what do you make of these posts
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...t=210&tstart=0

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=14445#14445
"john livingston:
I have been trying to understand just how a company like Phorm could gain such an apparent foothold in BT.
...
It appears that Scleparis may have been the Retail CTO during last year's covert trials of the interception technology, on live customer data. There was no customer permission obtained for these.

Adam - please confirm (or deny) that Mr. Scleparis held his BT post during the period in which the trials took place. From the records which will certainly exist, will you confirm that these were authorised by him?
...
"
and http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/me...ID=14459#14459
"L deAblow:
See http://www.computing.co.uk/vnunet/ne...ed-spam-buster dated 13/10/2006 so I would say yes Scleparis was

It looks like PHORM has been getting it teath into UK ISPs for a while and with Pat Hewitt MP joining the board, into the goverment as well"

is Pat Hewitt MP, now or ever been on the Phorm or related board of directors?

perhaps this ones for the specialist MP followers to track down and comment on, is there any paper trail to any MP infact?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't know if this is the same interview, but BBC have an interview at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7299875.stm

3/4 of the way down the article is an embedded player.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

interesting link on the BT forum to a comment from Lavasoft makers of Ad-Aware

http://www.lavasoft.com/support/secu...p=203#more-203

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

By the way, don't know if this has been posted before, but who's this guy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=did1DpWsaXA

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have rarely known something to cause the stink this has and a company to be so completely bereft of comment. Sorry i don't expect to have to write to VM about this it is something they are doing to ME without asking me a thing about it i damn well want them to start talking and telling us what the hell is going on not hiding in their offcies obviously waiting to see how it goes before growing a pair and talking to us. This has to be defeated now if it manages to gain even the smallest foothold in the uk isp market it will grow and eventually all isp's regardless of what they might say now will adopt it if everyone else is. If i am to be treated as a damn commodity for the profit of VM then give me my share of the profit from your invasion of my privacy i am sick of paying good money to be totally taken for granted in the way that VM are.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

She's joining BT (not Phorm) as a non-executive director.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...witt_joins_bt/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

thanks Matt, reading that link doesnt really make me feel any happyer about PH getting that position though .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So what chance does a citizen of a third-world, worse than banana-republic, fake-american, clone country, have of a having a voice when the nest-feathering self-serving numpties have already filled their boots. Several times over :mad:

Personally I would burn all politicians (well, I'm joking... only after they've been turned into bio-diesel, obviously) but that would be bad for teh planet, hey :rolleyes:

I will never, ever, vote for anyone who wants to be elected. Are any of you pollies watching this Phorm "Phiasco" - no? Thought not. You're not used to lifting your heads from the trough, are you :D

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

At about 12:27-15:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

She ;) And nope, I don't live in a cabled area, something I sob about regularly on these forums :P

---------- Post added at 22:26 ---------- Previous post was at 22:21 ----------

Oh, from what I believe, unlike BT who HAVE done this on the sly to it's customers, Virgin Media haven't...and Virgin are in two minds about using it at the moment. But yes, if you feel threatened then move. The only way they will know they've done wrong is by the amount of feet that start to budge to another provider.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Isn't it odd how quiet Phorm and their PR robots have become in recent days?
After the flurry of interviews and webchats over the last 2 weeks, it certainly seems as if Kent's out of ideas about how to further try to pull the wool over the eyes of Joe Public.

The pressure is certainly on. I wonder how long until Kent is sleeping under a bridge?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

He paid a flying visit ti ISPreview posted this in the news thread about Tim Berners-Lee Joins Camp of Phorm Criticism

As if he needed any help understanding the www.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After the tip-off today on the BBC news site, I had a look for details on the virgin site. Couldn't find anything - what a surprise. Found the 'register' article on this site with the link to virgin's webwise page, read it, and directly cancelled all services after 7 years as a customer.

Trying to grasp those few extra pennies will cost them a lot of pounds. What contempt they must hold their customers in. Unfortunately, they will get away with it with 98% of them.

Great site, thanks for the info.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What a patronising little slimeball! This is the standard response from Phorm to every criticism, "We look forward to speaking to [whoever] to explain how our technology is a ground breaking advance in delivering targeted ads while protecting privacy online and consumer choice, as we have with other experts"

So why haven't Phorm come forward here and on The Register to directly answer the questions put forward by intelligent customers who can recognise a scam when they see one?

Simple answer: because they aren't willing to admit there are people out there who have the capacity to make their own decisions about what happens to their data.

Get it into your head, Kent, you and your slimy little scheme are not welcome here. You are being challenged and your broken record response fails.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: to the Forums :)

May have been a touch premature, they've not implemented it yet & if we all join the struggle they may not...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

May have been a touch premature, they've not implemented it yet & if we all join the struggle they may not...

Thanks for the welcome. It's time to go, i've had enough of them - besides I don't like laughing-boy Branson!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, to clarify from the reports that I've read - Carphone Warehouse is going for opt-in, BT is establishing a proper opt-out (not just the fake cookie "pretend opt-out" used for press), but Virgin Media is standing ground of having a fully unescapable system? Or am I mistaken (please)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: mark
Ohh Yuck bright green, :td:, plain black with bold is far better,see....

just some info for you really, 'laughing-boy Branson' is only a major share holder, he does NOT own the Virgin Media company.

its just the old TW/NTL/etc collective with a 20 year licence for the Virgin Name and someone stuck Media on the end, hence 'Virgin Media'.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think VM were hoping to let the dust settle before deciding which way to go.
I suspect that's why there's been a virtual news-blackout from within VM: somebody figured it was best to keep quiet and definitely not to open it up for discussion with users (which worked well for TT, not so well for BT)

But at the end of the day, VM will have to make a decision based on the PR cost of compromising their customers' privacy (and the relatively small cost of some users leaving) or the potential £x millions from Phorm's advertising.

Just the fact that they've needed this *time* to ponder the decision is bad enough -- it's cut and dried for me. And ought to have been for them too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

time to remind people about your Page 7 Para 7 part of the post :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Taken from Florence's post:
It is getting rather tiresome that Phorm are not listening to the fact that it is not only the saving (or not saving) of data that concerns a lot of us (including Sir Tim) but the actual process of being profiled itself that we are opposed to. The not saving data is frankly irrelevant, it's been read (opted in OR out), that's the first violation which should be stopped.

---------- Post added at 00:38 ---------- Previous post was at 00:32 ----------

I am taking Berners-Lee's line of "It's mine; you can't have it" to mean he doesn't want the thrid party to even collect and analyse the data - any coversation of whether it is then saved or not means it is already too late as far as his privacy wishes go.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

dont forget unnecessary collecting is also not allowed under the DPA, everyone seems to miss that one, alongside explicit in the RIPA, they are important.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have to agree with you and one reason why on the 28th a BT line wil be fitted and my cable number ported over to BT. Had a cable phone since nynex completed laying the cables in Manchester, we signed up while the street was still being dug up and one of the first to go online,
This has broken all trust I had in VM I am off.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed so, good point well made.

I was more addressing the statements from Kent/Phorm/PRTeam that they can't understand why we are so opposed if nothing is being saved from a point of view of what we want to happen rather than the legislation - it's if they seem reluctant to realise that saving data is not the only personal issue we have, and also as you point out, a legal one.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

they know full well what we mean, its just wiggle room for them, lock it down, dont allow them to even wiggle.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well this is an interesting read hope you all have time to read it.

http://yro.slashdot.org/comments.pl?...8&cid=22777122

First paragraph to get you all in the mood. :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well now, that's interesting reading and rather backs up my point from earlier about their standard response. The rest rather backs up pretty much every concern mentioned in this thread.

*wonders if this information has been passed to the ICO and the ISPs considering Phorm*

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is the bit that EVERYONE should take note of

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As Virgin Media have contracted with Phorm I think we can assume that monitoring equipment is in place and we have little chance of changing that fact.

There is still a route of action which we can follow. There have been a number of posts to this thread suggesting the use of Firefox and Adblock Plus. If we adopt the use of these technologies en-masse then we deny Phorm their source of revenue by not following links to targeted advertisements.

So, do something proactive, install Firefox and the Adblock Plus and Adblock Filterset.G updater plugins and send a message to Virgin Media and Phorm that users are prepared to deny them revenue from our surfing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

When doing this, please bear in mind that a lot of websites (like cableforum) are entirely funded by ads.
Actually, the best way to hurt them is to change ISP and when retentions ask for a reason, blame Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So what is the official cableforum line on using ad blocking software? You would obviously prefer that we didn't? As I've said before, I didn't know that cableforum had adverts, as I've never seen any. Should you not make it clear when people join that you would prefer them to turn off any adblocking software?

You surely want people to click on the ads, as it gains income for you, yet you are against Phorm which says it would deliver more targeted and relevant adverts!

So at the end of the day, what would you rather have - Cableforum showing irrelevant ads to its users (waste of time and space), or Cableforum showing relevant ads, thereby increasing your income? Exactly how much income does cableforum gain from advert clickthroughs? Have you thought about making Cableforum ad-free and asking for donations instead? Hows about getting relevant companies to sponsor you in return for their ads being hard-coded into the forums? Will cableforum be signing up to Phorm? If not, why not, after all, wouldn't relevant ads be better for both you and us than non-relevant ones? If you are against Phorm because you value your users privacy then why are these forums viewable by everyone instead of just members only? What is cable forums policy on allowing Phorm type software to intercept data relating to Cable forum?

Not trying to be nasty here, just trying to find out what the views of the owners of Cableforum are, and how you intend to safeguard our data . . .

On a side note, http://finance.google.co.uk/finance?q=phorm makes for fascinating viewing, far better than any TV prog!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We have no official line, as far as I am aware. Nor do I think we need one. Generally we are not too bothered whether people have ad blocking software or not, it's just if too many people have it, the site will stop covering it's costs.
We aren't in it for profit. Google does pay per view as well as per click, so as long as people see the ads, we get some money. This income is currently covering the sites costs (licences, servers etc). We did accept donations, but this (AFAIK - it was before my time as a mod) didn't really cover ths costs of running the site.

I asked people to consider their actions above simply because the poster called for a mass blocking of ads. If the site loses too much income, it stops covering it's own costs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for your reply Stuart :)

Out of interest, I just disabled adblock and allowed goggle analytics so I could see the adverts here. A big one for unsecured loans (not relevant) links to google for some relevant things and a strange one for 'Virgin coconut oil'! The Mind boggles! I knew Branson has his fingers in many pies, but Coconut oil? Wow :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I often chose the disabled on this page option on forums such as this when using adblock plus, as Stuart said so long as we see the adds it helps to keep the forum running.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is from the BT forum. I'm going to post it here because it exactly mirrors my worries as a forum owner. In fact I could not have asked the question better:

As for answers, no-one from up high in Virgin, Phorm, BT etc are saying anything to anyone anymore. They've all gone very quiet. Fascinating . . .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I too have worries over forum snooping by Phorm, I'm part of a national charity and only members are able to log into the forum, but with Phorm, they would get access to names and email addresses. Some of these people are quite vulnerable, and to suddenly get bombarded with inappropriate adverts relating to their illness would make things not only difficult, but could make their condition worse.

The sooner the bigwigs at these ISP's realise that Phorm is nothing more than a spyware/malware peddler the better.

Re: the quote in post #1354
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

an AC on
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...egal/comments/

posted a generic web notice, will cableforum be placing something like this here?

"
New section added to my website's Legal Notices

By Anonymous Coward
Posted Tuesday 18th March 2008 10:23 GMT
After taking a little bit of advice, I've added the following to my website's legal notices page. Takes any doubt out of me giving any implied permission to profile.

"Profiling.
With the exception of recognised search engines as part of their standard service in directing Users to their first page on this Website, We give no permission, implied or explicit, to any service seeking to intercept or profile any internet traffic between this Website and any Users.

Any service seeking to intercept such traffic without prior written authorisation from Us shall be deemed to be making an unlawful interception."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

VM has gone quiet on this. VM's logo has been removed from the Phorm site which could mean VM is quietly backing away from this as BB is their cashcow revenue stream and the new C level team would not want to be seen damaging that.

---------- Post added at 09:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:18 ----------

It was St Pattys day.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:19 ----------

Does that deny revenue? I don't know how their model works with advertisers, is it click through which means it will deny or is it per serving. With what you detail above, the ad is still served, it is just not visible as you have blocked the final display. The advertiser pays for the serving, the viewer never sees it and Phorm takes their cut.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Since I was quoted here I thought I should register and share another important point most people are missing.

IF you "Opt In" to Phorm you could be criminally liable under RIPA, see below for a more detailed analysis of this which I posted on El Reg comments last week:

By accepting the Terms and Conditions and giving your ISP permission to intercept your communications you may actually be opening yourself up to criminal liability under RIPA.

As mentioned a multitude of times, consent is required from all parties for the interception of communication; by communicating with someone else with the knowledge that there is going to be an interception without the consent of the other party(ies) you could be deemed as complicit. All sort of cans of worms could be opened such as aiding and abetting; conspiracy and entrapment.

You could also be opening yourself up to Copyright Infringement offences such as Secondary Infringement and Vicarious Infringement. BT et al should be reminded that Copyright Infringement becomes a criminal offence where commercial gain and profit are involved; and since this is a profit based system (the ISPs get a cut of the advertising revenue) it seems to fall under criminal copyright law.

I am not aware of any case law in the UK which covers these points explicitly (but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist) however, there is case law elsewhere in the world. If I remember correctly there has been at least one case lost see:

Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation (336 F.3d 811(CA9 2003))

http://netcopyrightlaw.com/pdf/kelly...nt03182004.pdf

It should be noted that even in the case of Perfect 10 vs Google (which was originally judged in favour of the Plaintiff (Perfect 10) and then overturned on appeal) Google only managed to get the the ruling overturned on Fair Use arguments. Fair Use arguments don't work in the Phorm situation because there are differences. Google Images only created a derivative works in the form of a thumbnail which then linked directly back to the websites they came from. Phorm is copying the entire page using an illegal wire tap, so I don't think they could use the same arguments of Fair Use.

See also:

http://www.jurpc.de/aufsatz/20020029.htm (in German sorry)

which basically covers the situation regarding caching of websites in Europe with regards copyright law and reinforces that it is actually Copyright Infringement under European Law.

See also:

http://www.archive.org/iathreads/pos....php?id=119669

The above stemmed around Archive.Org (aka WayBackMachine) and the courts accepted that the Plaintiff had a case for the court to hear with regards breach of contract, based on the Terms and Conditions she had on her website which were breached by Archive.Org when they cached her pages.

Obviously Archive.Org settled out of court so no judgement was ever received, but they did acknowledge the infringement in their press release.

My advice to website owners who do not wish to have their pages intercepted and copied by Phorm systems (or indeed any other such systems) would be to add some Terms and Conditions to your website explicitly refusing the right to copy the pages and would then be covered under copyright law, contract law and RIPA as I understand it. If the Home Office want to try and throw around the implied consent argument, then it cuts both ways. Phorm accessing the website are bound by your Terms and Conditions through the same implied consent and would therefore be in breach of contract should such terms as "Phorm may not access or copy this website under any circumstances" appear in those terms. So potentially, a lot of popular forums could make a boat load of money from suing ISPs and Phorm for Copyright Infringement and Breach of Contract and even possibly bring criminal charges since the infringement is being used for commercial and financial gain.

Even if there is a slightest chance that my statements above are correct, they are reason enough alone, not to allow the interception of your communications.

So in the words of Nancy Reagan "Just say No!" [to Phorm]

Do you really want to take the chance? Do you honestly think BT wouldn't use you as a scapegoat in criminal proceedings?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You have to remember a bot is not intercepting. It is requesting just like a user does. If it is not an authenticated user then it will only be able to view the public pages. Phorm will view all traffic, even the authenticated stuff.

---------- Post added at 09:34 ---------- Previous post was at 09:28 ----------

Welcome, also Zammo and all the rest of the kids from Grange Hill.
http://www.archive.org/details/Funny...lJustSayNoSong

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In the same breath by "requesting" authenticated data the Phorm software could be seen as "hacking" the site it is requesting the authenticated data from by masquerading as an authenticated users. This leaves concerns under Computer Misuse Act and probably the tort of Trespass to Chattels.

Alexander Hanff

[EDIT]
Thanks for the welcome and the nostalgic reference to Grange Hill who I believe were all high as kites the day they met Nancy?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's a bit of a leap, daemon. All VM's recent public statements suggest that adopting Phorm is still under review.

IF VM decide to go ahead with Phorm, then that's one course of action.
But it won't have much of an effect unless the majority of VM's broadband users can be reached and persuaded to do the same -- you and I are a drop in the ocean! And of course, reducing the value of the adverts may force Phorm to exploit more of your data to stay solvent!
Alternatively we could deliberately seek out Phorm-placed ads and click on every one!

But the adverts themselves (although the primary motivating factor) aren't the real problem with Phorm, as Tim BL pointed out yesterday: it's the ground-breaking, clickstream monitoring that should be our focus.

Sorry but VM and Phorm will not get your message: I doubt they'll even notice that you're not seeing ads.

Sign the petition, educate other VM users (and those of BT Retail + TT), write letters of complaint to the ISPs and your MP: cause a fuss now!

:cleader:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh, don't get me wrong I'm not agreeing with any of this, just the wording to the addendum to T&C is not the most elegant. A bot can only do as much as any other internet user which by implecation you allow access to the site, in fact, a bot abiding by the rules can be steered clear of places you don't want it to go /img, /mail /cgibin etc. A hacker can target those.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes I agree, my post was not a criticism. This is why I haven't posted a set of default terms yet on http://denyphorm.blogspot.com/ because I want to make sure the terms are legally "elegant".

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"just the wording to the addendum to T&C is not the most elegant"
hence my something like this ;)

BTW Alexander, did you read florences linked post one page back
#1352

i didnt get around to posting it on your blog
http://denyphorm.blogspot.com/

what do you make of SMHarman's points post i bumped yesturday
#1346
the Page 7 Para 7 part being the most interesting.

exporting my data, dont think so matty, send that DPA Notice and remove that exporting right TODAY if you havent already.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have got the domain webwise.com listed in the domain block access list in my router, and until now any attempt to load the page www.webwise.com results in a time-out and page not found in my browser.
As of this morning, this page now loads and dumps a session cookie on my hard drive. I've checked the domain blocking list and webwise.com is still there. How is this happening? I'm not a particularly techie person: am I missing something here? Or have Phorm been changing servers quietly in the background to try and stay ahead of things like the dephormation plug-in (which I can't use as I don't use Firefox).
A quick check of my router log confirms that the block rule for webwise.com is not being broken when this page loads, but if I try to visit a page from another domain in my block list (e.g. www.phorm.com), it's blocked and the log reflects this.
Help!

EDIT: Okay...this is weird...webwise.com is now blocked again, but I didn't change anything! It was definitely accessible for 10-15 minutes. :eh:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I haven't read the /. article yet I have it on my list of things to read before the end of the day. But as regards SMH's reference, yes it is rather scarey especially when you look at the registration info that Phorm have used with ICO under DPA as a Data Controller and when you look at the Phorm patent.

Interestingly enough Phorm now have a London address registered and showing on the London Stock Exchange's website. I am presuming it is just one of those fake offices where a company answers the phones and receives/forwards mail. I would never suggest that antisocial behaviour is an option for dealing with Phorm, but I wouldn't shed any tears if a picture was posted with a huge anti Phorm slogan spray painted onto the front of their UK registered office.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

strange, is this a compulsive gamblers thing?

does anyone here understand the markets and can explain this shorting thing?.

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...ail&id=3960173
2100 : 2075 (-7.07%)
johnny arrowmaker
Subject Shorters heaven - ;-)
Message

So now it starts - bear stearns, northern rock et al need to make some money urgently - brokers looking for a way to recoup major losses, so this one looks good.

Tacky product that hardly any consumers want, that may be illegal on a number of fronts, relatively high unit share price.

Management and executive who are blind to the problems ahead, but are keen to spend their ultimate bosses' investment.

Also, it appears that the criminal fraternity can't wait for this product - put them in touch with all of the people in the country interested in valuables and investments x, y and z. Way to go - if a break in occurs as a direct result of the involvement of phorm, does that make phorm legally liable?

So the recommendation to you all is buy, buy, buy. Make no mistake, the shorters will play the opposite game. Game will shortly be on!!

"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe 'johnny arrowmaker' is a ramper.

Rampers - people who own the share and talk the price up to dump it and make a fast profit.

Shorters - people who have promised to provide the shares to someone else at a future date, and are talking the price down to get it cheaper and make a bigger cut.

He raises an interesting point in his 4th paragraph though...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Shorting is if you think prices are going to go down: you sell a bunch of shares you don't actually own at a high price, in the hope that by the time it comes to settle up, you can buy them at a much cheaper price, and pocket the difference. I've never managed to work out if you have to borrow them off someone somehow, or if you can just sell stuff you haven't bought yet. I think there might be a legal distinction here.

E.G. (I think - anyone who actually knows for certain how this works please chip in) - Phorm shares are at 2200p. You think that by the end of the day they'll be at 1500p, so you agree a deal to sell, say 10,000 shares to someone for 2200 and arrange to settle up at 5pm. At, say, 4.50pm, they've gone down to 1600, so you buy 10,000 at 1600 and pass them on to the person who's given you 2200 for them when that purchase falls due. This then gets you a nice little profit of £60,000.

Of course, if the share price rises between the time you make the deal and the time you have to settle up, then you've lost out: in the example above, if the shares go up to 2500 by 4.50pm, you've lost £30,000.

It's a weird way of doing things - it was illegal here at one point, although I'm not sure if it still is. I'm guessing it's not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

News in from BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7301379.stm

Slim

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hia Slim, where you been, that's yesterdays news! Try to keep up, there's a good chap.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

..but today's beeb Phorm story is at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7303426.stm

Keep it coming...

[EDIT] Reading the above article, it sounds as if someone at the BBC has seen the 80/20 Thinking (a.k.a. Simon Davies of Privacy International) report that Phorm commissioned - anyone found a link to the report yet?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was just coming to link that. This is a great article - Phorm's PR stooges have been trying to use this report as a whitewash, as in "look, these people say it's okay, so we're okay". Is anyone now surprised that they've been not telling the complete truth about what it said?

Just about everything they say is unravelling every time there's an update on the story. How long before VM decide to ditch this bunch of lying chancers?

[NOTE: VM, please ditch this bunch of lying chancers. I really like the V+ box and don't want to have to get rid of it because you've shacked up with a bunch of crooks who pulled the wool over your eyes.]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OMG, I hope that's not a true technical account of the technology and the way it is going to work - that is really, really scary stuff. Any trust that I might have had in VM has evapourated, if that's really the sort of system that they are even comtemplating on installing into the VM network.

I thought quietly taking a "tap" of all our web surfing was bad enough, but actually tampering with the data stream by redirecting and forcing our web browsers to load extra html and code has got to be blatant criminal cracker thinking.

I am just stunned, the idea of moving from a 20Mb cable modem to whatever sub 4Mb ADSL connection doesn't look quite so bad if the Phorm profiling boxes are going to that to my surfing and who knows what other IP traffic!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Actually, the adblock plus guys don't recommend installing filterset.g. It slows things down too much & can cause other problems.

Link

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'll second that. :walk: (Me walking away...)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Good job I held off on sending my reply to Ian Woodham. This and the slashdot article are powerful stuff.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will post any more links I find but I have now made arrangements for BT line and moving away lost trust and faith in VM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From reading the bbc article, it seems that Simon Davies' preferred way forward is going to be more complexity and opportunity to obfuscate what this system is actually collecting on us all, by way of a system of blacklists of topics that the system won't collect info on (e.g. sexual orientation, medical conditions, etc.)
That just won't work: it'll result in a system that nobody will be able to keep track of, no accountability for security breaches, ample opportunity for Phorm to extract data that they shouldn't without anyone noticing, and no transparency whatsoever. ISP customers will have no idea of what information is likely to be collected or not, and will have no confidence in the "privacy" being claimed. Who will decide what goes on a blacklist? Who will monitor that those topics are not being collected? Who will maintain the lists and keep them up-to-date? (the content of the web changes minute-to-minute). And none of this alters the fact that it is the routing and mirroring of users' webclicks that is unacceptable on privacy grounds, even before there is any potential use of that information. Whatever hope I held out for the publication of the 80/20 report is fast evaporating - it sounds to me like this so-called "privacy advocate" doesn't have the same definition of my privacy as me.:(
The only acceptable result for me is the absolute assurance that none of my ISP traffic goes anywhere near any hardware or software related to Phorm. Better still, don't install any hardware full stop.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

lucevans and others, can you go back and edit your posts to include some carrage returns now and then.

its really hard to read these single line posts ,Thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is similar to the way http://www.websense.com/global/en/ blocks access to the internet. Only as good as the blacklists and whitelists created and they need to update those all the time as sites change the way they are set out and new sites appear.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Better? ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

wonderful ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In the absence of any information forthcoming from Phorm or Virgin Media, here are some more questions:

Tucked away in the small print of the scheme is the fact that a far more detailed record of the online activity of every customer will be stored in a "debugging" log for 14 days by Phorm, than will be stored in the "digest" (i.e. the aggregated, anonymized record they plan to hold on each of us for the purpose of targetting adverts at us).

What data fields will the debugging log contain? Will it include a user's IP address? Will it contain any of the information that was stripped-out of the digest to preserve the individuals anonymity or security? (By this I mean data like form fields, numbers, names, webmail data, etc.). Will it contain the raw data of encrypted pages that pass through the profiler?

It seems to me that by concentrating on the "anonymity" of the digest record of every customer, Phorm may be seeking to divert our attention from another, far more detailed, far less anonymous record that will be held "purely for administration and troubleshooting purposes"

Even if their intentions are honest regarding use of the debugging records (something I find hard to believe), surely these files would present a much more attractive target to hackers or criminal employees within Phorm or the ISPs, as they would contain lucrative personal information.

Who gets to see the debugging logs? (Russian spyware programmers, perhaps?) Are they exported outside the UK for "troubleshooting" by the "talented teams of programmers" that Phorm employ in the US and Russia? How do we know that they are irrecoverably destroyed after 14 days?

The questions just keep coming. Shame there are no answers.

---------- Post added at 20:36 ---------- Previous post was at 19:37 ----------

Thanks for the link - very interesting (and scary)!

If that is how the system is going to work, then surely opting-out by the method of domain blocking will really knacker my web connection?

If the Phorm hardware wants to check a Phorm cookie (be it the user ID or opt-out variety) then the system will have to wait until some time-out is reached with regard to the cookie check, to be sure that I really don't have a cookie, because my router will just drop all attempts to communicate with any of the Phorm domains, so every page load will be delayed hugely.

I've demonstrated this to myself already by going to http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/index.html and watching it attempt to contact the cookie server at the domain webwise.net The page doesn't fully finish loading for almost 60 seconds due to these repeated attempts, and presumably, if this system goes live then every page request I make will then be subject to the same futile attempts to connect to the phorm server?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to an article on The Register today the government advisory panel has written to the info commissioner advising that Phorm is 'illegal'

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03..._fipr_illegal/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...egal/comments/
"
80/20 Thinking report

By Anonymous Coward
Posted Tuesday 18th March 2008 21:16 GMT
...is here:
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...20final%20.pdf
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I threw the towel in yesterday, after 7 years, for virgin even considering this. Their contempt for their customers is clear.

Forgive me if this question is slightly off topic, but it is a consequence of virgin cozying up to phorm, and this forum seems to be very well informed.

Does anybody know if I can insist on these cretins removing their (shallowly buried)cables from my property when my notice period expires?

Thanks in advance for any replies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Far from the positive spin put on it by Phorm...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and if you can find the time, the rules that need to be followed for that Privacy Impact Assessment (PIA) is here
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...l/1-intro.html

did they follow all the provisions ?

i wonder

http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...preparing.html

"...
2. Undertake a stakeholder analysis

Those who may see themselves as 'having a stake' in the project should be identified at an early stage. This may include:

• the organisation conducting the project, and perhaps also various sub-organisations within it;
• other organisations directly involved in the project;
• organisations and individuals that are intended to benefit from it;
• organisations and individuals that may be affected by it, and possibly
• organisations that provide technology and services to enable it

It is advisable to document the results of the stakeholder analysis in an appropriate form, most likely a one-page summary.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's rather shocking at how many recommendations made by the 80/20 report have been more or less ignored by Phorm. Not surprisingly they put it through a 'good news' parser before they read it.

Recmmendations in that report such as transparency about the intent and the technology, making a permanent opt-out to avoid profiling technology - listening to those would have done them sooooo many favours.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

sure, once the contract is finished , they cant keep their property on yours if you dont want it there , your land ,your rules.

if in the future you want it back though, tables are then turned, they dont have to put it back....