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Sephiroth 21-04-2021 13:43
British culture
 

The ESL thread got into debate about football being part of British culture. This post in that thread sums up where we got to.

For the purposes of this thread, it doesn't matter whether or not football is part of British culture (I certainly think it's part of our heritage). My main motive for starting this thread is to discuss the proposition that our culture will be submerged by others over time.

Some of this debate may turn on "culture" vs "heritage". Some of this debate may turn on diversity and whether or not that dilutes our culture.

In the linked thread, Chris wrote (my emphasis):

Quote:
It's great that the Spurs season ticket passes down your family, but it's not so great that with such an obvious cultural artefact right under your nose you still can't see it.
There we have it. "Culture" vs "heritage". Something that passes down the family is definitely in the "heritage" class, 'right under my nose' which I can't see!

My main contention is that our culture is under threat from other cultures, particularly any that are intransigent and antithetic to the Judeo-Christian element of our culture.

Incidentally, it may be interesting to boil British culture down to a common denominator. I've mentioned Judeo-Christian which could be argued taking atheism into account. In a liberal society, culture evolves with experience and possibly brainwashing (see woke-ism for details); I doubt that's the case with certain other cultures.

So what do you all think?

Hugh 21-04-2021 14:00
Re: British culture
 
In what way, and in what time period, do you forecast that
Quote:
our culture will be submerged by others over time.
For instance, a lot of people think "our culture" is being subsumed by US culture and way of life (the Coca-Colonisation of the world by McDonalds, Coke, US TV & films, etc.).

Terms of reference are important, so we all approach the discussion from the same point.

Carth 21-04-2021 14:16
Re: British culture
 
I've just written what seems like an essay on the subject, but decided to delete it.
Not because it was wrong, not because it wasn't factual, not because it pointed fingers in any direction.

I deleted it because someone, somewhere, would eventually find issue with it . . . guaranteed :)

pip08456 21-04-2021 14:36
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36077505)
I've just written what seems like an essay on the subject, but decided to delete it.
Not because it was wrong, not because it wasn't factual, not because it pointed fingers in any direction.

I deleted it because someone, somewhere, would eventually find issue with it . . . guaranteed :)
All the more reason to post it.

Jaymoss 21-04-2021 14:48
Re: British culture
 
Seeing as it has happened before I am pretty sure it could easily happen again

Lets face it a lot of us on this forum have seen a lot of cultural changes already after all how many who seen the 70s 80s and 90s ever thought there would come a day someone would demand to be called the pro noun they let alone everything that has come along with it. Or we would have to go around treading on eggshells so we do not offend some kind of minority. I am sure how I worded that sentence would likely offend someone of said minority

jonbxx 21-04-2021 15:18
Re: British culture
 
Ooh, this could end in a locked thread and some bannings!

I think how we see British culture and how other see it are quite different. I saw this thread and then had a call with a colleague from Belgium and asked him what he thought of British people and culture. On the positives, he saw British people as being open and fair and surprisingly flexible. On the less positive side, he saw us as being somewhat parochial or cliquey and tended to look backwards than forwards.

I asked him what other people were we like and he said somewhere between the Swedes and Germans (not the Danes though) which I guess is a compliment!

So culture in general. It depends on if you see British culture as what identifies us or a snapshot of where we are now. In my mind, culture is an organic thing, always changing. Britain and the culture of britons has been changing for centuries, from a largely illiterate population working in serfdom, through the industrial revolution and the growth of cities to having vast amounts of information available on a device which sits in the palm of your hand.

If you look at 'foreign' culture coming here, how much of that is normal now? We have cherry picked and anglicised other countries products, foods, words, etc. for ever. Sitting in your pyjamas, drinking coffee and eating a pizza in a bungalow and so on...

I am in no doubt that British culture will continue to change. I am also in no doubt that there will be many who decry cultural change as the virtual destruction of British culture. Of course, the counterargument is who says that where we are right now is the absolute peak of our culture and any change will be a downhill one?

It's an interesting discussion!

1andrew1 21-04-2021 15:44
Re: British culture
 
I blame cable TV for all those foreign programmes diluting our culture! ;)

I'm sure US culture has a huge influence on British culture. Just look at all the reactions to BLM in America.

It will also be interesting to see how Netflix shapes our culture with its global content made in other languages.

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 15:48
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077503)
In what way, and in what time period, do you forecast that

For instance, a lot of people think "our culture" is being subsumed by US culture and way of life (the Coca-Colonisation of the world by McDonalds, Coke, US TV & films, etc.).

Terms of reference are important, so we all approach the discussion from the same point.
Part of the interest to draw from this thread is what others consider to be "for instances". Why should I prescribe them?

Pierre 21-04-2021 15:54
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077503)
In what way, and in what time period, do you forecast that

For instance, a lot of people think "our culture" is being subsumed by US culture and way of life (the Coca-Colonisation of the world by McDonalds, Coke, US TV & films, etc.).

Terms of reference are important, so we all approach the discussion from the same point.
It is and it is being accelerated through social media and You Tube. The number of times I have to correct by 9yr old.......Sweets not Candy, Rubbish not Trash etc, etc.

I think it's likely as they get older they'll grow out if it, but some will stick. People using the "US" dictionary when using Word, and just accepting the US spellings.

The adoption of BLM in the UK and the attempt to equate racial issues in the US to the UK, when the two are completely different.

The push for Critical Race Theory to adopted in the UK.

The UK and US are very different, but people seem to think we're not.

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 16:03
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36077517)
Ooh, this could end in a locked thread and some bannings!

I think how we see British culture and how other see it are quite different. I saw this thread and then had a call with a colleague from Belgium and asked him what he thought of British people and culture. On the positives, he saw British people as being open and fair and surprisingly flexible. On the less positive side, he saw us as being somewhat parochial or cliquey and tended to look backwards than forwards.

I asked him what other people were we like and he said somewhere between the Swedes and Germans (not the Danes though) which I guess is a compliment!

So culture in general. It depends on if you see British culture as what identifies us or a snapshot of where we are now. In my mind, culture is an organic thing, always changing. Britain and the culture of britons has been changing for centuries, from a largely illiterate population working in serfdom, through the industrial revolution and the growth of cities to having vast amounts of information available on a device which sits in the palm of your hand.

If you look at 'foreign' culture coming here, how much of that is normal now? We have cherry picked and anglicised other countries products, foods, words, etc. for ever. Sitting in your pyjamas, drinking coffee and eating a pizza in a bungalow and so on...

I am in no doubt that British culture will continue to change. I am also in no doubt that there will be many who decry cultural change as the virtual destruction of British culture. Of course, the counterargument is who says that where we are right now is the absolute peak of our culture and any change will be a downhill one?

It's an interesting discussion!
Quote:
Ooh, this could end in a locked thread and some bannings!
That's what will make people dance around/avoid fingering cultures in the UK that might dominate in the longer term future.

Brexit has illustrated that there are cultural differences between continental Europeans and Brits. Both are conditioned by their environment. For example, Europeans governed under Roman Law are subtly aware that the law broadly says what they are allowed to do and anything else is implicitly not allowed (crossing the road is an example). Put rather simply but the principle is sound. British Law has none of this; it defines what you MUST do, what you MUST NOT do and everything else that doesn't negate what you must do is allowed subject to precedent in the Courts. This conditioning thus affects behaviour and hence culture.

There are certain cultures present in the UK that don't do diversity. A variant on the, multi-culturalism, causes problems for the defence of British culture. The ultra-woke may well think "so what?" - melange is the ultimate answer. This sort of evolution cannot and should not be stopped. But there are cultures that would prefer to dominate and possibly have that agenda in mind right now whereas the melange is a very slow burner.

Carth 21-04-2021 16:15
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077522)
Part of the interest to draw from this thread is what others consider to be "for instances". Why should I prescribe them?
OK, here's a 'for instance' for you ;)

My next door neighbour (neighbor*) is a Sikh, really nice chap, well liked by all around here (white middle class 3 bed detached area).

The reason he moved here from a different part of town . . in his words . .

"Too many of those Polish people moved in to where I was, always fighting and causing trouble, no good for people like me"

*American spelling, this board rejects the English one. ;)

Pierre 21-04-2021 16:23
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36077527)
OK, here's a 'for instance' for you ;)

My next door neighbour (neighbor*) is a Sikh, really nice chap, well liked by all around here (white middle class 3 bed detached area).

The reason he moved here from a different part of town . . in his words . .

"Too many of those Polish people moved in to where I was, always fighting and causing trouble, no good for people like me"

*American spelling, this board rejects the English one. ;)
I've had that about 9 years ago, in a Hospital waiting room talking to a man of Pakistani descent, and complaining about them taking the local jobs. Now I didn't have an issue with that because I had no reason to assume the guy wasn't born in Britain, in which case if he has an opinion on an fairly recent influx of immigrants, his opinion is just as valid as a white British person's

Hom3r 21-04-2021 16:27
Re: British culture
 
IMHO British culture is slowly being destroyed by the easily offended snowflakes.

Take a look at some of the classic British shows that have to be "Cut" so the don't offend.

For example "In sickness and in health", Alf Garnett was a bigot who ending up losing the argument, and that was the point of the show taking the mick out of bigots.

Then do you remember "Mind your language" it was an English language class, with the stereo typical non English type, but it will never be shown on TV.

heero_yuy 21-04-2021 16:44
Re: British culture
 


The old values ARE crumbling. :D

jonbxx 21-04-2021 16:47
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077525)
That's what will make people dance around/avoid fingering cultures in the UK that might dominate in the longer term future.

Brexit has illustrated that there are cultural differences between continental Europeans and Brits. Both are conditioned by their environment. For example, Europeans governed under Roman Law are subtly aware that the law broadly says what they are allowed to do and anything else is implicitly not allowed (crossing the road is an example). Put rather simply but the principle is sound. British Law has none of this; it defines what you MUST do, what you MUST NOT do and everything else that doesn't negate what you must do is allowed subject to precedent in the Courts. This conditioning thus affects behaviour and hence culture.

There are certain cultures present in the UK that don't do diversity. A variant on the, multi-culturalism, causes problems for the defence of British culture. The ultra-woke may well think "so what?" - melange is the ultimate answer. This sort of evolution cannot and should not be stopped. But there are cultures that would prefer to dominate and possibly have that agenda in mind right now whereas the melange is a very slow burner.
Is it fair so say that the culture from Finland to Greece, Portugal to Hungary is homogenous and the UK is somehow different from this homogenous bloc? I wouldn't say so, there are huge differences across an entire continent. There are similarities from a legal standpoint as you say but the way people relax, interact, eat, educate and so on are very different.

I agree that a cherry picking of the best of everything has worked well for British culture in the past and I am hopeful that it will in the future. The white Anglo Saxon brit tends to be a pragmatic person on the whole. There are of course some who say that white British people should dominate but this is slowly but surely being wiped out. For example, our teenage daughter has been invited to her first Iftar meal and we couldn't be happier at the broadening of her horizons

Russ 21-04-2021 16:49
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pierre (Post 36077523)
It is and it is being accelerated through social media and You Tube. The number of times I have to correct by 9yr old.......Sweets not Candy, Rubbish not Trash etc, etc.

I think it's likely as they get older they'll grow out if it, but some will stick. People using the "US" dictionary when using Word, and just accepting the US spellings.

The adoption of BLM in the UK and the attempt to equate racial issues in the US to the UK, when the two are completely different.

The push for Critical Race Theory to adopted in the UK.

The UK and US are very different, but people seem to think we're not.
100% agreed. I can't stand it when Brits use pointless americanisms. "Cell phone", "sidewalk", "chips" instead of crisps etc.

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 16:55
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hom3r (Post 36077530)
IMHO British culture is slowly being destroyed by the easily offended snowflakes.

Take a look at some of the classic British shows that have to be "Cut" so the don't offend.

For example "In sickness and in health", Alf Garnett was a bigot who ending up losing the argument, and that was the point of the show taking the mick out of bigots.

Then do you remember "Mind your language" it was an English language class, with the stereo typical non English type, but it will never be shown on TV.
I remember "Mind your language" well. It was very clever because it also pitted Pakistani origin against Indian origin and all point west and east of that! Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YC9_Aan_S9Q

Only the wokest of woke can find anything wrong with that. It's brilliant.

Chris 21-04-2021 16:58
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077500)

The ESL thread got into debate about football being part of British culture. This post in that thread sums up where we got to.

For the purposes of this thread, it doesn't matter whether or not football is part of British culture (I certainly think it's part of our heritage). My main motive for starting this thread is to discuss the proposition that our culture will be submerged by others over time.

Some of this debate may turn on "culture" vs "heritage". Some of this debate may turn on diversity and whether or not that dilutes our culture.

In the linked thread, Chris wrote (my emphasis):



There we have it. "Culture" vs "heritage". Something that passes down the family is definitely in the "heritage" class, 'right under my nose' which I can't see!

My main contention is that our culture is under threat from other cultures, particularly any that are intransigent and antithetic to the Judeo-Christian element of our culture.

Incidentally, it may be interesting to boil British culture down to a common denominator. I've mentioned Judeo-Christian which could be argued taking atheism into account. In a liberal society, culture evolves with experience and possibly brainwashing (see woke-ism for details); I doubt that's the case with certain other cultures.

So what do you all think?
It's impossible to discuss this meaningfully without a working definition of 'culture' we can agree on. As you have started off the thread by completely missing the point of my earlier post, we're not off to a good start.

Let's start by clearing that up:

Do you understand what a 'cultural artefact' is, and why a cultural artefact may or may not also be part of your heritage?
What is your working definition of 'culture'?

Full disclosure:
My first degree is in archaeology. Discussion of material culture and the interpretation of it, in pursuit of vanished cultures, a speciality.
My second degree (will be) in practical theology, unless I mess up the dissertation I'm meant to be writing this afternoon, which, coincidentally, is on the subject of how long-term exposure to visual storytelling (film and TV, with my specific examples drawn from Hollywood) affects the way spoken sermons are received by church congregations. My dissertation is being marked by a specialist in cultural theology, because that's the area I'm working in. The Hollywood summer blockbuster is both a builder of, and a mirror for, culture. As is Anfield on a Saturday afternoon.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying that I have spent a ridiculously large amount of my life contemplating what culture is, and how we relate to it, but also that I don't sadly have much time this evening to contribute here.

Maggy 21-04-2021 17:03
Re: British culture
 
I don't care about British culture.I was born in the former British colony of Nigeria and I was the different one. Then I came back to a country I was a stranger to when I was 7/8 old.Again I was the odd one out. The fact is we are an island that has been invaded by other cultures for a couple of thousand years and we coped just fine.We have been welcoming our European and Commonwealth cousins for a few centuries and we haven't lost a thing.We have in fact grown.We got on quite well with the those displaced during 2 world wars and I thought we were doing well in being part of the EU when we accepted our neighbours across the channel and they accepted us moving to the EU to work and live. I think we were enriched by being part of a bigger whole. British culture is just a mish mash of all those who have invaded and migrated to us. That IS our culture.

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 17:28
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077543)
It's impossible to discuss this meaningfully without a working definition of 'culture' we can agree on. As you have started off the thread by completely missing the point of my earlier post, we're not off to a good start.

Let's start by clearing that up:

Do you understand what a 'cultural artefact' is, and why a cultural artefact may or may not also be part of your heritage?
What is your working definition of 'culture'?

Full disclosure:
My first degree is in archaeology. Discussion of material culture and the interpretation of it, in pursuit of vanished cultures, a specialty.
My second degree (will be) in practical theology, unless I mess up the dissertation I'm meant to be writing this afternoon, which, coincidentally, is on the subject of how long-term exposure to visual storytelling (film and TV, with my specific examples drawn from Hollywood) affects the way spoken sermons are received by church congregations. My dissertation is being marked by a specialist in cultural theology, because that's the area I'm working in. The Hollywood summer blockbuster is both a builder of, and a mirror for, culture. As is Anfield on a Saturday afternoon.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying that I have spent a ridiculously large amount of my life contemplating what culture is, and how we relate to it, but also that I don't sadly have much time this evening to contribute here.
I know exactly what a "cultural artefact" is. That includes books, artwork, statues, archaeology etc, from which we can deduce something of the culture of those times and their effect on present culture.

My working definition of "culture" leans towards the anthropological meaning; so feel free to agree/disagree. To me, it means the values, goals, beliefs, behaviours etc shared by a society. Football is not one of those, not even within the etc range! Football is a widely shared interest that has little or no bearing on British culture.

Does "British Society" include all cultures present in the UK? And that is close to the nub of the matter. If other cultures don't share the same values and goals and beliefs of British society, we will run into trouble when/if their numbers grow to a critical mass, whatever that might be.

As regards theology, the Judeo-Christian foundation that is a pillar of British culture does not require believe in God. It is an accepted code of behaviour that we learn in school and from example at home and in association with others.

Carth 21-04-2021 17:39
Re: British culture
 
Cultural Heritage? Cultural Artifact?

Stonehenge
Hadrians Wall
The Canal Network
Lancashire Textile Mills
Clifton Suspension Bridge
The Mary Rose

etc etc, list is endless

Different times, different culture, same Country

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 17:42
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36077549)
Cultural Heritage? Cultural Artifact?

Stonehenge
Hadrians Wall
The Canal Network
Lancashire Textile Mills
Clifton Suspension Bridge
The Mary Rose

etc etc, list is endless

Different times, different culture, same Country
You omitted 'Football' from the endless list!

Jaymoss 21-04-2021 17:48
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077550)
You omitted 'Football' from the endless list!
Slavery

Paul 21-04-2021 17:48
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36077505)
I deleted it because someone, somewhere, would eventually find issue with it . . . guaranteed :)
If that were a reason not to post, no one would be posting at all. :erm:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36077527)
*American spelling, this board rejects the English one. ;)
This forum (not board) doesnt do spell checking, that will be your browser. ;)

Carth 21-04-2021 17:53
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul (Post 36077553)
This forum (not board) doesnt do spell checking, that will be your browser. ;)
Damn American browsers, coming over here and rewriting our language :( :D

jonbxx 21-04-2021 18:01
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077543)
It's impossible to discuss this meaningfully without a working definition of 'culture' we can agree on. As you have started off the thread by completely missing the point of my earlier post, we're not off to a good start.

Let's start by clearing that up:

Do you understand what a 'cultural artefact' is, and why a cultural artefact may or may not also be part of your heritage?
What is your working definition of 'culture'?

Full disclosure:
My first degree is in archaeology. Discussion of material culture and the interpretation of it, in pursuit of vanished cultures, a speciality.
My second degree (will be) in practical theology, unless I mess up the dissertation I'm meant to be writing this afternoon, which, coincidentally, is on the subject of how long-term exposure to visual storytelling (film and TV, with my specific examples drawn from Hollywood) affects the way spoken sermons are received by church congregations. My dissertation is being marked by a specialist in cultural theology, because that's the area I'm working in. The Hollywood summer blockbuster is both a builder of, and a mirror for, culture. As is Anfield on a Saturday afternoon.

Which is a very long-winded way of saying that I have spent a ridiculously large amount of my life contemplating what culture is, and how we relate to it, but also that I don't sadly have much time this evening to contribute here.
Ah well, physical artefacts are a different thing. I would say that our culture in that respect is more defined by how we interact or relate to physical artefacts or symbols than the actual artefacts themselves

Russ 21-04-2021 18:41
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36077527)

*American spelling, this board rejects the English one. ;)
*British

pip08456 21-04-2021 18:45
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36077559)
*British
Tell OED that.

Chris 21-04-2021 18:53
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077546)

My working definition of "culture" leans towards the anthropological meaning; so feel free to agree/disagree. To me, it means the values, goals, beliefs, behaviours etc shared by a society. Football is not one of those, not even within the etc range! Football is a widely shared interest that has little or no bearing on British culture.
Your assertion re football makes no sense in the context of your perfectly fine definition of culture.

Football, in common with all sports, very obviously says something about the values of our culture with regards to competition, teamwork, applied physical prowess and the sharing of heightened emotional experiences. Football, as a primary spectator and participation sport, says more than most.

It goes to the heart of behaviour in our culture when the sport has an aggregate attendance at professional domestic league matches in excess of 30 million over the course of a season, with many more watching on TV at home or in the pub.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...nited-kingdom/

Replica shirts, bumper stickers, hats and scarves are everywhere, all year round. It is appealed to in conversation as metaphor constantly. For you to attempt to pass it off as a 'widely shared interest' with 'little or no bearing' on culture is bizarre. I'm beginning to think you've argued yourself into a corner and haven't quite worked out how to get out of it.

Hugh 21-04-2021 19:01
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth;36077527[I
*American spelling, this board rejects the English one.[/I] ;)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36077559)
*British
Quote:
Originally Posted by pip08456 (Post 36077560)
Tell OED that.
English language and words, British spelling (according to the OED).

https://public.oed.com/how-to-use-the-oed/glossary/
Quote:
headword

The headword is the main word at the top of an entry (shown in red in OED Online).

The form of the headword usually reflects the standard modern spelling of the word. Where there are two standard modern forms (e.g. British and U.S. spellings), the entry has dual headwords, separated by a vertical bar. See, for example, manoeuvre | maneuver. By convention, the British spelling is given first, and determines the order of the entry in the dictionary; but you can search for the entry using either spelling.

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 19:03
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077563)
Your assertion re football makes no sense in the context of your perfectly fine definition of culture.

<SNIP>
I'm beginning to think you've argued yourself into a corner and haven't quite worked out how to get out of it.
No - at no time have I felt painted into a corner. It's so blindingly obvious that football is a widely shared interest and not specifically part of our culture. Nor is stamp collecting, photography etc.

You've linked the "values of our culture" to the rather narrow teamwork involved in competition. You could say that about Poker, Bridge, tennis doubles, rugby. Nothing at all to do with culture.

Chris 21-04-2021 19:25
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077565)
No - at no time have I felt painted into a corner. It's so blindingly obvious that football is a widely shared interest and not specifically part of our culture. Nor is stamp collecting, photography etc.

You've linked the "values of our culture" to the rather narrow teamwork involved in competition. You could say that about Poker, Bridge, tennis doubles, rugby. Nothing at all to do with culture.
All of those things are expressions of our culture.

Hugh 21-04-2021 19:37
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077565)
No - at no time have I felt painted into a corner. It's so blindingly obvious that football is a widely shared interest and not specifically part of our culture. Nor is stamp collecting, photography etc.

You've linked the "values of our culture" to the rather narrow teamwork involved in competition. You could say that about Poker, Bridge, tennis doubles, rugby. Nothing at all to do with culture.
What is "British culture", in your view?

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 20:47
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077567)
What is "British culture", in your view?

British culture is derived from (non-exhaustive) books, artwork, statues, archaeology, law, taught conventions, taught codes (such as Judeo-Christianity), observed behaviour. It is no surprise to me that in the back of the British head, there would be little disagreement with what I've said.

If there is disagreement, it'll come out here.

Hugh 21-04-2021 21:01
Re: British culture
 
That’s where it comes from - what are it’s attributes?

For instance, a lot of British architecture is neoclassical - neoclassical is based in Greek and Roman architecture.

You keep using the phrase "Judeo-Christian", but for a lot of Britain’s (and other countries) history, Christians persecuted and disdained Jews - seems strange to base a culture on something that, until recently, we didn’t admire...

As was commented
Quote:
Rabbi Jill Jacobs wrote on Twitter that “much of ‘Judeo-Christian’ tradition involves centuries of Christians trying to kill us,” adding, “if you mean ‘not Muslim’ say it.”
About the phrase "Judeo-Christian"...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...s-over/614812/

Quote:
The “Judeo-Christian tradition” was one of 20th-century America’s greatest political inventions. An ecumenical marketing meme for combatting godless communism, the catchphrase long did the work of animating American conservatives in the Cold War battle.

Jaymoss 21-04-2021 21:13
Re: British culture
 
Hold on what are we actually talking about here? Culture has 2 meanings 1 which are objects and 2 ideals . The objects have not changed much seeing as we still have some Roman sites and art and so on but ideals are changing constantly

Hadrian's Wall has no effect on social culture but Adrian deciding she wants to be called Adriana does

Sephiroth 21-04-2021 22:00
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077574)
That’s where it comes from - what are it’s attributes?

For instance, a lot of British architecture is neoclassical - neoclassical is based in Greek and Roman architecture.

You keep using the phrase "Judeo-Christian", but for a lot of Britain’s (and other countries) history, Christians persecuted and disdained Jews - seems strange to base a culture on something that, until recently, we didn’t admire...

As was commented

About the phrase "Judeo-Christian"...

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/ar...s-over/614812/
You're going way off beam. The evolved Judeo-Christian culture in the UK today centres on the sub-conscious understanding of the the behaviour associated with commandments 4 through 10. Nothing to do with the pogroms, prejudices etc.

1andrew1 21-04-2021 22:37
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077567)
What is "British culture", in your view?
Warm beer, cricket on a village green and rain. Sometimes all at the same time. :D

Chris 21-04-2021 23:31
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077571)

British culture is derived from (non-exhaustive) books, artwork, statues, archaeology, law, taught conventions, taught codes (such as Judeo-Christianity), observed behaviour. It is no surprise to me that in the back of the British head, there would be little disagreement with what I've said.

If there is disagreement, it'll come out here.
In what sense is it derived from such things? Are you suggesting these are things from which we deduce what our culture is, or are these things whose production generates our culture? Or both?

Hugh 22-04-2021 00:00
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1andrew1 (Post 36077582)
Warm beer, cricket on a village green and rain. Sometimes all at the same time. :D
Knowing your place, keeping others in their place, harking back to "the good old times", the Empire...

pip08456 22-04-2021 01:07
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077586)
Knowing your place, keeping others in their place, harking back to "the good old times", the Empire...


and a variation on the theme.

Russ 22-04-2021 07:57
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36077577)
Culture has 2 meanings 1 which are objects and 2 ideals .
You're almost there.

Culture has different meanings to different people. Culture is subjective.

There may be things we enjoy today that have a basis in other cultures and countries but in my view that doesn't distract them from being what I consider to be our culture today.

Things we (as a nation) did centuries ago should not necessarily be used to define us today.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 08:23
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth

British culture is derived from (non-exhaustive) books, artwork, statues, archaeology, law, taught conventions, taught codes (such as Judeo-Christianity), observed behaviour. It is no surprise to me that in the back of the British head, there would be little disagreement with what I've said.

If there is disagreement, it'll come out here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077584)
In what sense is it derived from such things? Are you suggesting these are things from which we deduce what our culture is, or are these things whose production generates our culture? Or both?
The latter, Chris. People don't spend their time contemplating the former. That's why I referred to the "back of the British head"; it's in the subconscious, subliminal.

We then look at other cultures, whose behaviours, pronouncements etc differ from ours, and reach a conclusion as to whether or not our culture is under threat.

mrmistoffelees 22-04-2021 08:34
Re: British culture
 
Some people are very afraid of change, unfortunately for them it's inevitable.

Russ 22-04-2021 08:41
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36077598)
Some people are very afraid of change, unfortunately for them it's inevitable.
I don’t think it’s fear. I certainly don’t like change. I know in some ways it’s inevitable and I don’t expect things to stop moving on my say-so. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it.

jonbxx 22-04-2021 08:44
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36077598)
Some people are very afraid of change, unfortunately for them it's inevitable.
Absolutely, British culture has changed huge amounts over the centuries and to think it should not change any more is also a conversation that has been had for centuries.

“The Only Thing That Is Constant Is Change” - Heraclitus 535-475BCE

Carth 22-04-2021 08:48
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees (Post 36077598)
Some people are very afraid of change, unfortunately for them it's inevitable.
Inevitable it may be, but I think the first post on the topic concerns whether the change is acceptable and are we, as a nation, better or worse for it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36077599)
I don’t think it’s fear. I certainly don’t like change. I know in some ways it’s inevitable and I don’t expect things to stop moving on my say-so. But that doesn’t mean I have to like it.
Same here, one of my favourite phrases is "backwards in the name of progress" ;)

mrmistoffelees 22-04-2021 08:58
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carth (Post 36077602)
Inevitable it may be, but I think the first post on the topic concerns whether the change is acceptable and are we, as a nation, better or worse for it.



Same here, one of my favourite phrases is "backwards in the name of progress" ;)
Change occurs whether we find it acceptable or not. Whether that change brings about progress is of course different.

The British culture/heritage is a such a melting pot of so many other diverse cultures with changes occurring to it over such a long period of time. Ultimately it will continue to change and evolve further and people will simply have to decide how much energy they're prepared to waste getting flustered/annoyed/worried/scared by such an irresistible force.

Will there be setbacks in progress in some areas? Of course, will the general progression be for the overwhelming good? I suspect so. it hasn't harmed us so far.

Maggy 22-04-2021 09:03
Re: British culture
 
British culture where women play no part for many.

---------- Post added at 09:03 ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 ----------

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-56840131

Sums up it British culture basically.

Carth 22-04-2021 09:03
Re: British culture
 
I look forward to Sharia law and all of the positives it brings.

There, it's now been said (instead of 4 pages circling the subject) . . so shoot me :p:

Pierre 22-04-2021 09:11
Re: British culture
 
British Culture is fast becoming one of self flagellation, looking into the past and judging our actions by todays standards and then demanding that we apologise and are shamed by it.

Chris 22-04-2021 09:27
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077595)
The latter, Chris. People don't spend their time contemplating the former. That's why I referred to the "back of the British head"; it's in the subconscious, subliminal.

We then look at other cultures, whose behaviours, pronouncements etc differ from ours, and reach a conclusion as to whether or not our culture is under threat.
And where do you draw the line between what generates culture and what does not? Where’s the line between something through which we deduce what our culture is, and another thing through which we can’t?

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 09:56
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077620)
And where do you draw the line between what generates culture and what does not? Where’s the line between something through which we deduce what our culture is, and another thing through which we can’t?
You're still doing the former:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
In what sense is it derived from such things? Are you suggesting these are things from which we deduce what our culture is, or are these things whose production generates our culture? Or both?
I maintain that British culture is subliminal. However, that doesn't stop us from examining and commenting on other cultures.

Multi-culture is an interesting diversion. Let's take two examples that have similarities but also stark differences:

1 The Muslims

They derive their culture from centuries of imbuement in the Koran. When you read the Koran, its touch points on British culture are pretty much zero. There is a 90%+ uptake of the religion by British Muslim children. At the extreme end of Islam are the Iranians, Jihadists and so on.

There will be many British Muslims who have absorbed a considerable amount of British culture, but it is my perception that most of them remain governed by Islam.

2 The Jews

They derive their culture from the Old Testament, which is 50% (sort of) of the Christian influence. British Jews have integrated well into British culture and I'm sure the leakage of belief into atheism is not much different from British Christians. At the extreme end of Judaism are the Ultras who pretty-much bubble themselves into their mini-society. Their culture is based on the teachings of a particular past Rabbi in Eastern Europe. One thing the British ultras don't do is Jihad and all the terror that brings.

Chris 22-04-2021 10:01
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077624)
You're still doing the former:
No, I'm still attempting to understand how you define culture. If it can be transmitted in certain artefacts and behaviours but not in others, and it can be generated in certain artefacts and behaviours but not in others, then I would like to know how you determine which artefacts and behaviours to look to, and which to ignore. At this point, you have still to satisfactorily justify your assertion that it is not appropriate to talk of football in terms of culture. I would like you to outline your reasoning, and not merely repeat the assertion in ever more strident terms.

I'm deliberately ignoring your mildly disturbing attempts to push the thread towards the eulogising or denigrating of certain religious and cultural tropes. I don't think you've set your stall out nearly well enough for that to be fruitful at this stage.

And your talk of 'subliminal' seems to be a fairly transparent attempt to avoid defining your meaning and intent. Sure, average people most of the time don't consciously think about what their culture is, but this is a discussion forum, discussing culture, at your own invitation. So please stop avoiding the question.

Jaymoss 22-04-2021 10:20
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ (Post 36077593)
You're almost there.

Culture has different meanings to different people. Culture is subjective.

There may be things we enjoy today that have a basis in other cultures and countries but in my view that doesn't distract them from being what I consider to be our culture today.

Things we (as a nation) did centuries ago should not necessarily be used to define us today.
In the English language it is not subjective it has the 2 Noun definitions I outlined and a 3rd which is Verb and is where you maintain tissue or cells in a medium suitable for growth

---------- Post added at 10:20 ---------- Previous post was at 10:17 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077624)
You're still doing the former:



I maintain that British culture is subliminal. However, that doesn't stop us from examining and commenting on other cultures.

Multi-culture is an interesting diversion. Let's take two examples that have similarities but also stark differences:

1 The Muslims

They derive their culture from centuries of imbuement in the Koran. When you read the Koran, its touch points on British culture are pretty much zero. There is a 90%+ uptake of the religion by British Muslim children. At the extreme end of Islam are the Iranians, Jihadists and so on.

There will be many British Muslims who have absorbed a considerable amount of British culture, but it is my perception that most of them remain governed by Islam.

2 The Jews

They derive their culture from the Old Testament, which is 50% (sort of) of the Christian influence. British Jews have integrated well into British culture and I'm sure the leakage of belief into atheism is not much different from British Christians. At the extreme end of Judaism are the Ultras who pretty-much bubble themselves into their mini-society. Their culture is based on the teachings of a particular past Rabbi in Eastern Europe. One thing the British ultras don't do is Jihad and all the terror that brings.
I think the extremity in Islam is a lot broader than those who are radicle. I find the acts in countries such as Saudi Arabia despicable where they throw homosexuals off buildings and behead victims of rape. Many Islamic countries are extremely extreme in how they enforce Sharia law

The Jews,Muslims and Christians all believe in the same God only Christians believe the Messiah promised Abraham through the line of Isaac has come. Muslims believe Jesus was a Prophet the same as Mohammed

Hugh 22-04-2021 10:25
Re: British culture
 
Point of information - the throwing off of buildings was in Syria by Islamic State, an Islamic terrorist group.

I disagree with the way Saudia Arabia treats it's people, but they didn't do that.


Christian Pastors in the USA praised an anti-gay massacre, but I don't blame the US Government (or the US people) for that...

Jaymoss 22-04-2021 10:31
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077635)
Point of information - the throwing off of buildings was in Syria by Islamic State, an Islamic terrorist group.

I disagree with the way Saudia Arabia treats it's people, but they didn't do that.


Christian Pastors in the USA praised an anti-gay massacre, but I don't blame the US Government (or the US people) for that...
I sit corrected :)

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 11:17
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077627)
No, I'm still attempting to understand how you define culture. If it can be transmitted in certain artefacts and behaviours but not in others, and it can be generated in certain artefacts and behaviours but not in others, then I would like to know how you determine which artefacts and behaviours to look to, and which to ignore. At this point, you have still to satisfactorily justify your assertion that it is not appropriate to talk of football in terms of culture. I would like you to outline your reasoning, and not merely repeat the assertion in ever more strident terms.

I'm deliberately ignoring your mildly disturbing attempts to push the thread towards the eulogising or denigrating of certain religious and cultural tropes. I don't think you've set your stall out nearly well enough for that to be fruitful at this stage.

And your talk of 'subliminal' seems to be a fairly transparent attempt to avoid defining your meaning and intent. Sure, average people most of the time don't consciously think about what their culture is, but this is a discussion forum, discussing culture, at your own invitation. So please stop avoiding the question.
Quote:
No, I'm still attempting to understand how you define culture. If it can be transmitted in certain artefacts and behaviours but not in others, and it can be generated in certain artefacts and behaviours but not in others, then I would like to know how you determine which artefacts and behaviours to look to, and which to ignore. At this point, you have still to satisfactorily justify your assertion that it is not appropriate to talk of football in terms of culture. I would like you to outline your reasoning, and not merely repeat the assertion in ever more strident terms.
I don't know what goes on in the deep crevices of your mind, but I've tried to keep it simple in my definition. Above all, British culture is subliminal, expressing itself in people's behaviour and beliefs.
As for football, sod that; it's a distraction.

Quote:
I'm deliberately ignoring your mildly disturbing attempts to push the thread towards the eulogising or denigrating of certain religious and cultural tropes. I don't think you've set your stall out nearly well enough for that to be fruitful at this stage.
Apparently not. I haven't denigrated anything. But I would like to tease out whether or not others think that British culture is under threat.

Quote:
And your talk of 'subliminal' seems to be a fairly transparent attempt to avoid defining your meaning and intent. Sure, average people most of the time don't consciously think about what their culture is, but this is a discussion forum, discussing culture, at your own invitation. So please stop avoiding the question.
Definitely not. I'm quite certain that culture cannot be simply defined; Googling the question comes up with definitions like:

the ideas, customs, and social behaviour of a particular people or society.

You can't detail that as not only would the list be very long, the variants come into play and very few people would be able to contribute at that level in this debate.

However, since you've tried to force the point, I believe that British culture is under threat in so far as if the birth rate of an incompatible culture reaches a critical mass, laws will change as that culture asserts itself.

See: https://www.google.com/search?newwin...w=1482&bih=761

Quote:
UK Muslim Demographics.
Year Pop. ±%
2001 1,600,000 +68.4%
2011 2,706,066 +69.1%
2017 3,372,996 +24.6%


Happy now?

Hugh 22-04-2021 11:28
Re: British culture
 
https://www.channel4.com/news/factch...jority-by-2050

Quote:
Assuming patterns of net immigration do not change significantly, the Pew Forum thinks that there will be just over 5.5 million British Muslims, representing 8.2 per cent of the UK population, by 2030.

None of this is an exact science, and some demographers say total fertility rate overestimates the lifetime fertility of immigrants because it doesn’t adjust for the fact that they tend to have children soon after arriving.

The verdict

Birth rates among native-born women are currently low across most of Europe and the developed world in general.

Demographers think a fertility rate of about 2.1 children per woman on average is necessary for the population of a developed country to sustain itself.

Most of the “native” populations of Europe are failing to have enough children, while birth rates are higher among Muslim immigrant populations, so it seems inevitable that the British Muslim population will rise in the coming decades.

But it’s equally clear that the gap in fertility between Muslim and non-Muslim will continue to lessen over time, as it has in recent decades.

Mr Cooper suggests that there are “strong cultural reasons for higher Muslim birth rates”, but this ignores the fact that birth rates have fallen dramatically in many Muslim countries.

FactCheck wouldn’t bet on the British Muslim population ever topping 10 per cent, let alone 50 per cent.

Chris 22-04-2021 11:29
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077641)

Happy now?
Yup. I'm now satisfied that this isn't an interesting, general discussion about how culture arises and changes over time, but is more likely a space for making racist assertions under pseudo-academic cover.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 11:42
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077644)
Yup. I'm now satisfied that this isn't an interesting, general discussion about how culture arises and changes over time, but is more likely a space for making racist assertions under pseudo-academic cover.
You're being ridiculous. My very first post clearly stated:

Quote:
My main motive for starting this thread is to discuss the proposition that our culture will be submerged by others over time

Chris 22-04-2021 11:51
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077647)
You're being ridiculous. My very first post clearly stated:
And you genuinely don't see the difficulty in your use of loaded terms like 'submerged', or in your subsequent, crass generalisations like 'the Jews' 'the Muslims' or, even, 'the Iranians'.

Hence my point.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 12:04
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077648)
And you genuinely don't see the difficulty in your use of loaded terms like 'submerged', or in your subsequent, crass generalisations like 'the Jews' 'the Muslims' or, even, 'the Iranians'.

Hence my point.
Who else thinks that my capsule characterisations were crass?

Hugh 22-04-2021 12:12
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077650)
Who else thinks that my capsule characterisations were crass?
Not a surprise to you, but...

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2021/04/1.gif

Using loaded statements like
Quote:
diversity and whether or not that dilutes our culture
Quote:
our culture is under threat from other cultures
Quote:
brainwashing (see woke-ism for details)
Quote:
Only the wokest of woke can find anything wrong with that
Quote:
If other cultures don't share the same values and goals and beliefs of British society, we will run into trouble when/if their numbers grow to a critical mass
Quote:
look at other cultures, whose behaviours, pronouncements etc differ from ours, and reach a conclusion as to whether or not our culture is under threat.
Quote:
I believe that British culture is under threat in so far as if the birth rate of an incompatible culture reaches a critical mass
make it pretty clear where you're coming from/going to...

Russ 22-04-2021 12:42
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36077633)
In the English language it is not subjective it has the 2 Noun definitions I outlined and a 3rd which is Verb and is where you maintain tissue or cells in a medium suitable for growth
It absolutely is subjective. What I consider to be culture you may call a national embarrassment.

Neither of us would be right or wrong.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 12:45
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077651)
Not a surprise to you, but...

https://www.cableforum.uk/images/local/2021/04/1.gif

Using loaded statements like

make it pretty clear where you're coming from/going to...
You're criticising me for asserting that British culture is under threat.

Why don't you come off your high horse and explain whether or not you think British culture is under threat and why?

jonbxx 22-04-2021 13:00
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077653)
You're criticising me for asserting that British culture is under threat.

Why don't you come off your high horse and explain whether or not you think British culture is under threat and why?
It's my lunch break so why not. You said that;

Quote:
I believe that British culture is under threat in so far as if the birth rate of an incompatible culture reaches a critical mass, laws will change as that culture asserts itself.
and then posted data on UK Muslim demographics.

If British culture is driven by British people, then British Muslims are also drivers of British culture surely?

Now, the status quo of British culture may well change with changing demographics but it is still British culture isn't it, unless you are saying that being a Muslim is not compatible with being British.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 15:03
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36077655)
It's my lunch break so why not. You said that;

and then posted data on UK Muslim demographics.

If British culture is driven by British people, then British Muslims are also drivers of British culture surely?

Now, the status quo of British culture may well change with changing demographics but it is still British culture isn't it, unless you are saying that being a Muslim is not compatible with being British.
It is a tricky subject where we have to tread carefully.
Chris has already suggested that I have made racist assertions; that was quick and of course, he is completely wrong.

Let's look at what you've said logically. You've taken my point about the evolution of British culture to include the effect of non-British culture exercised by people of an obviously different culture but who are also British by reason of laws and rights.

And here we probably part company. Citizenship is one thing, but a competing or incompatible culture is another.

Cast forward to a date in the future when the Muslim population reaches sufficient numbers to have a majority in Parliament. In your reasoning, British culture will have evolved so that Shariah law, for example, would be at the forefront.

There is a government report into Sharia Law. Obviously Sharia Councils serve a required function under Islam; decisions can be enforced by an application made to the English courts who ensure that the decisions are not incompatible with English law. It is of interest to me that the BETH DIN (Jewish) and ROMAN CATHOLIC COUNCIL are not subject to such safeguards. Hence my regular reference to Judeo-Christian input to British culture.

Am I being racist or am I examining the question rather more fully than the likes of Hugh or Chris can appreciate?

jonbxx 22-04-2021 17:00
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077664)
It is a tricky subject where we have to tread carefully.
Chris has already suggested that I have made racist assertions; that was quick and of course, he is completely wrong.

Let's look at what you've said logically. You've taken my point about the evolution of British culture to include the effect of non-British culture exercised by people of an obviously different culture but who are also British by reason of laws and rights.

And here we probably part company. Citizenship is one thing, but a competing or incompatible culture is another.

Cast forward to a date in the future when the Muslim population reaches sufficient numbers to have a majority in Parliament. In your reasoning, British culture will have evolved so that Shariah law, for example, would be at the forefront.

There is a government report into Sharia Law. Obviously Sharia Councils serve a required function under Islam; decisions can be enforced by an application made to the English courts who ensure that the decisions are not incompatible with English law. It is of interest to me that the BETH DIN (Jewish) and ROMAN CATHOLIC COUNCIL are not subject to such safeguards. Hence my regular reference to Judeo-Christian input to British culture.

Am I being racist or am I examining the question rather more fully than the likes of Hugh or Chris can appreciate?
I think it is a healthy discussion to have but I got the feeling along with Hugh and Chris that you were stating that Islam is not compatible with British culture which becomes an issue when you have British Muslims. This could give the impression that Muslims are 'less British' and there lies a slippery slope. If there are different classes of British citizens, I think we have a problem.

Taking you example of there being a point in the future where there is a Muslim majority voting for the Muslim Party, is that not democracy? Say, hypothetically, that 52% of the population voted to invoke Shariah law, is it right or wrong to go with this?

I agree on your point BTW on the Shariah courts, an equal level of scrutiny should be applied to all extra judicial court systems such as Beth Din

Russ 22-04-2021 17:18
Re: British culture
 
Extreme Islam isn't compatible with British values but then again extreme anything wouldn't be either.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 17:29
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx (Post 36077674)
I think it is a healthy discussion to have but I got the feeling along with Hugh and Chris that you were stating that Islam is not compatible with British culture which becomes an issue when you have British Muslims. This could give the impression that Muslims are 'less British' and there lies a slippery slope. If there are different classes of British citizens, I think we have a problem.

Taking you example of there being a point in the future where there is a Muslim majority voting for the Muslim Party, is that not democracy? Say, hypothetically, that 52% of the population voted to invoke Shariah law, is it right or wrong to go with this?

I agree on your point BTW on the Shariah courts, an equal level of scrutiny should be applied to all extra judicial court systems such as Beth Din
Quote:
Taking you example of there being a point in the future where there is a Muslim majority voting for the Muslim Party, is that not democracy? Say, hypothetically, that 52% of the population voted to invoke Shariah law, is it right or wrong to go with this?
I come from the position that democracy is used by the causes of those that will abolish democracy. See Hitler and Mugabe for obvious details and various rigged elections elsewhere.. There is no guarantee that it won't happen again and I can only see one loosely democratic Muslim country. My fears are not irrational, albeit if the materialise it's well into the future.

Quote:
I think it is a healthy discussion to have but I got the feeling along with Hugh and Chris that you were stating that Islam is not compatible with British culture which becomes an issue when you have British Muslims. This could give the impression that Muslims are 'less British' and there lies a slippery slope. If there are different classes of British citizens, I think we have a problem.
There is no different class of British citizen in my mind. Citizenship and culture are very different things. At the moment, British culture dominates and, naturally, it unquestionably tolerates other cultures. It's just that I feel that a particular culture, when in power, is unlikely to tolerate minority cultures.

Hugh 22-04-2021 20:11
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077680)
I come from the position that democracy is used by the causes of those that will abolish democracy. See Hitler and Mugabe for obvious details and various rigged elections elsewhere.. There is no guarantee that it won't happen again and I can only see one loosely democratic Muslim country. My fears are not irrational, albeit if the materialise it's well into the future.



There is no different class of British citizen in my mind. Citizenship and culture are very different things. At the moment, British culture dominates and, naturally, it unquestionably tolerates other cultures. It's just that I feel that a particular culture, when in power, is unlikely to tolerate minority cultures.
You appear, in support of your argument that a minority may have too much power in the future in the U.K., use as examples two dictators who, in order to gain power, used the proposition that minorities had too much power in their countries - did you really mean to do this?

Maggy 22-04-2021 20:36
Re: British culture
 
Don’t type culture into Google. Mind numbing.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 20:50
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077693)
You appear, in support of your argument that a minority may have too much power in the future in the U.K., use as examples two dictators who, in order to gain power, used the proposition that minorities had too much power in their countries - did you really mean to do this?
No. There is no way that what I wrote could reasonably be portrayed in that light.

Hitler and Mugabe are different cases. Hitler was as you said; Mugabe was elected in an independence led vote; quite different but nevertheless one-man-one-vote-one-time, as Smitty put it.

My fear is different again. I subscribe to the thinking behind this article in the Irish Times.

Quote:
Saudi Arabia is likely to be angered by the findings since its dispute with Qatar has largely been based on the accusation that its Gulf rival is both the primary funder of terrorism overseas and harbours terrorists that support the Muslim Brotherhood or Hamas.

The report claims: “Saudi Arabia has, since the 1960s, sponsored a multimillion dollar effort to export Wahhabi Islam across the Islamic world, including to Muslim communities in the west.

“In the UK, this funding has primarily taken the form of endowments to mosques and Islamic educational institutions, which have in turn played host to extremist preachers and the distribution of extremist literature.

“Influence has also been exerted through the training of British Muslim religious leaders in Saudi Arabia, as well as the use of Saudi textbooks in a number of the UK’s independent Islamic schools.”

It adds: “A number of Britain’s most serious Islamist hate preachers sit within the Salafi-Wahhabi ideology and are linked to extremism sponsored from overseas, either by having studied in Saudi Arabia as part of scholarship programmes, or by having been provided with extreme literature and material within the UK itself.”
What do you think would happen to democracy when this long term plan comes to fruition in the UK by democratic means? Well?

Hugh 22-04-2021 21:16
Re: British culture
 
Well, I would not be worried by the fact that
Quote:
Britain’s Salafi Mosques had a collective capacity for a 44,994-strong membership
out of the 3.3 million Muslims in the U.K. (1.36%).

(and it’s not 44,994 membership, it’s that they have the capacity to have 44,994 members).

btw, from the source material for your link

Quote:
About The Centre for the Response to Radicalisation and Terrorism (CRT)

The Centre for the Response to Radicalisation and Terrorism (CRT) is unique in addressing violent and non* violent extremism. By coupling high-quality, in-depth research with targeted and impactful policy recommendations, we aim to combat the threat of Islamism in our society.
Apparently, the only terrorists they are interested in countering are the Islamic ones...

The Henry Jackson Society is "the leading exponent of neoconservatism in the UK today grounded in a transatlantic tradition deeply influenced by Islamophobia and an open embrace of the ‘War on Terror’."

https://researchportal.bath.ac.uk/en...ritish-neocons

They have form in "over-egging the pudding"...

Quote:
The Henry Jackson Society (HJS) has settled the High Court defamation claim brought by Huda Television Ltd (Huda), an educational television channel aimed at the UK Muslim community. In addition to paying libel damages to Huda plus legal costs, HJS has published a retraction of the allegations and an apology to Huda on the HJS website (where it will remain) and on Twitter.

Huda brought libel proceedings after HJS published a report titled “Extremism on the Airwaves: Islamist broadcasting in the UK”, with accompanying news release and Twitter promotion, on 21 November 2018. HJS, which describes itself as “a think tank that produces expert research on the threats to our security”, said that its report “explores how Islamist extremists use our broadcast networks to further their radical agenda.” Huda’s Claim contended that HJS had called for it to face more regulatory intervention based on false allegations about it hosting Islamist extremist content.

Following a consent order, the statement issued by HJS explains that HJS had alleged that Huda’s “channel regularly publishes content containing Islamist extremist subject matter” but that HJS accepted that “This was incorrect” and “No such content appears on Hua’s website”.

HJS also admitted that it was “wrong” to claim that Huda “almost ubiquitously host well-known extremist speakers” and that its claim that nine allegedly extremist speakers had appeared on the channel “was incorrect in relation to the majority of the speakers identified” who had not appeared on Huda at all.
https://www.doughtystreet.co.uk/news...v-station-huda

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 21:39
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077700)
Well, I would not be worried by the fact that out of the 3.3 million Muslims in the U.K. (1.36%).

(and it’s not 44,994 membership, it’s that they have the capacity to have 44,994 members).

<SNIP>
It didn't take more than 10,000 thugs out of whatever was Germany's population in 1933 to get control of the streets through bullying and fear. And with that democracy disappeared.

Chris 22-04-2021 23:20
Re: British culture
 
Ah, reductio ad Hitlerum.

I hereby invoke the first corollary of Godwin’s Law.

Hugh 22-04-2021 23:49
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077701)
It didn't take more than 10,000 thugs out of whatever was Germany's population in 1933 to get control of the streets through bullying and fear. And with that democracy disappeared.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077705)
Ah, reductio ad Hitlerum.

I hereby invoke the first corollary of Godwin’s Law.
That’s not what happened...

Quote:
In 1930 Hitler made an alliance with the Nationalist Alfred Hugenberg in a campaign against the Young Plan, a second renegotiation of Germany’s war reparation payments. With the help of Hugenberg’s newspapers, Hitler was able for the first time to reach a nationwide audience. The alliance also enabled him to seek support from many of the magnates of business and industry who controlled political funds and were anxious to use them to establish a strong right-wing, antisocialist government. The subsidies Hitler received from the industrialists placed his party on a secure financial footing and enabled him to make effective his emotional appeal to the lower middle class and the unemployed, based on the proclamation of his faith that Germany would awaken from its sufferings to reassert its natural greatness. Hitler’s dealings with Hugenberg and the industrialists exemplify his skill in using those who sought to use him. But his most important achievement was the establishment of a truly national party (with its voters and followers drawn from different classes and religious groups), unique in Germany at the time.

Unremitting propaganda, set against the failure of the government to improve conditions during the Depression, produced a steadily mounting electoral strength for the Nazis. The party became the second largest in the country, rising from 2.6 percent of the vote in the national election of 1928 to more than 18 percent in September 1930. In 1932 Hitler opposed Hindenburg in the presidential election, capturing 36.8 percent of the votes on the second ballot. Finding himself in a strong position by virtue of his unprecedented mass following, he entered into a series of intrigues with conservatives such as Franz von Papen, Otto Meissner, and President Hindenburg’s son, Oskar. The fear of communism and the rejection of the Social Democrats bound them together. In spite of a decline in the Nazi Party’s votes in November 1932, Hitler insisted that the chancellorship was the only office he would accept. On January 30, 1933, Hindenburg offered him the chancellorship of Germany.

Sephiroth 22-04-2021 23:59
Re: British culture
 
It's exactly what happened. A few thousand thugs controlled the streets and they became the official thugs via SS/Gestapo.

.

Jimmy-J 23-04-2021 07:08
Re: British culture
 
Happy St George's Day. :waving:

Chris 23-04-2021 08:35
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077707)
That’s not what happened...
Godwin’s Law requires mere invocation of Nazis, not an accurate understanding of them. Actually, inaccuracy is probably what causes Godwin’s Law to exist at all.

Hugh 23-04-2021 08:40
Re: British culture
 
Wasn't aimed at you, Chris - sorry if it seemed that way.

---------- Post added at 08:40 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077711)
It's exactly what happened. A few thousand thugs controlled the streets and they became the official thugs via SS/Gestapo.

.
No, that was after he got into power - he got into power by being backed by right wing industrialists and right wing newspapers, which drove up his share of the vote.

Jaymoss 23-04-2021 08:45
Re: British culture
 
End of the day if the Allies did not cripple Germanys economy after WWI Hitler would have had a much harder time getting the support. On top of that once Hitler did start his take over of ex patriot states the Allies did nothing until Poland

Thinking about it it is a good job Oswald Mosley was not as successful as Hitler

History is never simple

Sephiroth 23-04-2021 09:45
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077734)
Wasn't aimed at you, Chris - sorry if it seemed that way.

---------- Post added at 08:40 ---------- Previous post was at 08:38 ----------

No, that was after he got into power - he got into power by being backed by right wing industrialists and right wing newspapers, which drove up his share of the vote.
.... and the people I'm talking about will be democratically elected by reason of their numbers and then the thug element will start running things. That's the scenario I'm posing while you're fiddling with the square root of historic detail.

Hugh 23-04-2021 14:54
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077748)
.... and the people I'm talking about will be democratically elected by reason of their numbers and then the thug element will start running things. That's the scenario I'm posing while you're fiddling with the square root of historic detail.
And, as has been pointed out repeatedly before, the numbers you are positing don’t add up - the Pew Report stated that even with medium migration (which is unlikely, as recent Governments have restricted immigration), Muslims will not exceed 16% of the U.K. population by 2050.

You ignore the fact that 2nd Generation immigrants have smaller families than 1st generation, so the growth rate you fear isn’t likely to happen.

https://www.theatlantic.com/internat...n-myth/545318/

Quote:
Although Muslims make up less than 10 percent of the total population in each of these countries, perceived overpopulation has been at the center of anti-immigration discourse. About 7.5 percent of France is Muslim, yet on average French people believe Muslims constitute about one in three people in the country. Although Muslim women in Western Europe do currently have more children than their non-Muslim counterparts, research shows that European Muslims’ fertility rate is also declining much faster, so their fertility rates will likely converge over time.
https://www.prb.org/muslimsineurope/

Quote:
EUROPEAN MUSLIMS SHOW FERTILITY DECLINES

In their study, Westoff and Frejka sift through the available data to estimate the level and trends in childbearing among European Muslims. They show that although Muslim immigrants do have more children than other Europeans, their fertility tends to decline over time, often faster than among non-Muslims.

In Austria, for example, Muslim women had a total fertility rate (an estimate of lifetime births per woman) of 3.1 children per woman in 1981, well above the 1.7 average for the majority Roman Catholic women. By 2001, the rate for Catholics had fallen to 1.3, but the Muslim rate had fallen to 2.3—leaving a difference of just one child per woman between Muslims and non-Muslims.

The gap narrowed even further in the former West Germany, where the authors relied on data by mother’s nationality rather than religion. West Germany recruited a large number of workers from Turkey beginning in the 1960s, giving Germany one of Western Europe’s largest Muslim populations. In 1970, Turkish women living in West Germany had more than two more children than German women. By 1996, the difference between these two groups had fallen to one child.

Recent trends in the Netherlands tell a similar story (see figure). The fertility gap between native-born women and women born in predominantly Muslim Morocco and Turkey narrowed considerably between 1990 and 2005.

Sephiroth 23-04-2021 15:15
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077786)
And, as has been pointed out repeatedly before, the numbers you are positing don’t add up - the Pew Report stated that even with medium migration (which is unlikely, as recent Governments have restricted immigration), Muslims will not exceed 16% of the U.K. population by 2050.

You ignore the fact that 2nd Generation immigrants have smaller families than 1st generation, so the growth rate you fear isn’t likely to happen.
I'm not basing my postulation on immigration. I start with those that are here and their birth rate.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...e-times-census

Selective quote:
Quote:
Almost a tenth of babies and toddlers in England and Wales are Muslim, declared the Times on its front page on Friday, indicating what it describes as a "startling shift" in the demographic trend in England and Wales. So where did the figures come from and are they as revealing as claimed?

The numbers originate from a 2011 census release first published by the Office for National Statistics in May 2013 and in more detail in November as a specially commissioned ad hoc table.

The figures do not calculate birthrate as such, but show that almost a tenth of babies and toddlers (under-fives) in England and Wales are Muslim. Of 3.5 million children up to the age of four in England and Wales recorded in the 2011 census, 317,952 (or 9.1%) were Muslim.

The Times report also states "the percentage of Muslims among the under-fives is almost twice as high as in the general population". That is correct. According to the census figures, 4.8% of the 56.1 million resident population of England and Wales in 2011 were Muslim, and as stated above 9.1% of all under-fives in the population were Muslim.



Maggy 23-04-2021 21:51
Re: British culture
 
Hmm!I was under the assumption this was about British culture not birth rates.

Sephiroth 23-04-2021 22:29
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36077823)
Hmm!I was under the assumption this was about British culture not birth rates.
If you have been following the thread, you should be able to see that the discussion is now addressing whether or not British culture could be submerged and how this might occur.

Maggy 24-04-2021 09:21
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077826)
If you have been following the thread, you should be able to see that the discussion is now addressing whether or not British culture could be submerged and how this might occur.
I think it's a diversion that could be addressed in another thread.

Chris 24-04-2021 09:26
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36077823)
Hmm!I was under the assumption this was about British culture not birth rates.
No, it’s not really about British culture, as the obsession with Muslim birth rates demonstrates.

Where we are today *is* British culture. Our culture is generated by, and expressed in, the sum total of everything we all believe and value and how we act on that belief. Likewise, where they were in 1945 *was* British culture. That was different, because societal attitudes were different, for a whole host of reasons including the recent war but also the country’s demographics. Where we are in 2100 *will be* British culture, because the sum total of beliefs and values of all British people at that time, and all the actions actions based on them, is what will generate and express that culture.

Culture is never static, and can never be so. It is always changing, as its component influences are always changing. That is why attempting to talk of a culture being “submerged” by the birth rate of one particular ethnic or religious group, both entirely misunderstands what culture is and how it is generated, and is also just a teeny bit racist.

Sephiroth 24-04-2021 09:35
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy (Post 36077842)
I think it's a diversion that could be addressed in another thread.
I started the thread and haven't made any diversion from what my first post stated.

Hugh 24-04-2021 09:37
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077788)
I'm not basing my postulation on immigration. I start with those that are here and their birth rate.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...e-times-census

Selective quote:
Erm, 2nd generation immigrants are "already here" - that was the main point of the post, that the birth rate of the children of families who are already here reduces.

Maggy 24-04-2021 13:17
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris (Post 36077843)
No, it’s not really about British culture, as the obsession with Muslim birth rates demonstrates.

Where we are today *is* British culture. Our culture is generated by, and expressed in, the sum total of everything we all believe and value and how we act on that belief. Likewise, where they were in 1945 *was* British culture. That was different, because societal attitudes were different, for a whole host of reasons including the recent war but also the country’s demographics. Where we are in 2100 *will be* British culture, because the sum total of beliefs and values of all British people at that time, and all the actions actions based on them, is what will generate and express that culture.

Culture is never static, and can never be so. It is always changing, as its component influences are always changing. That is why attempting to talk of a culture being “submerged” by the birth rate of one particular ethnic or religious group, both entirely misunderstands what culture is and how it is generated, and is also just a teeny bit racist.
:tu:

Sephiroth 24-04-2021 14:49
Re: British culture
 

I'll remind you of what I said in my first post:

Quote:
My main contention is that our culture is under threat from other cultures, particularly any that are intransigent and antithetic to the Judeo-Christian element of our culture.

Incidentally, it may be interesting to boil British culture down to a common denominator. I've mentioned Judeo-Christian which could be argued taking atheism into account. In a liberal society, culture evolves with experience and possibly brainwashing (see woke-ism for details); I doubt that's the case with certain other cultures.
A vibrant evolving culture along the lines suggested by Chris is one thing; eventual domination by a culture that achieves a governing majority (if that happens) is quite another.

And calling me racist, to whatever degree, is disgraceful.

Jaymoss 24-04-2021 15:15
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077855)

I'll remind you of what I said in my first post:



A vibrant evolving culture along the lines suggested by Chris is one thing; eventual domination by a culture that achieves a governing majority (if that happens) is quite another.

And calling me racist, to whatever degree, is disgraceful.

Dave and Stormzy told us last year at the Brits that everyone is racist

Hugh 24-04-2021 15:52
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077855)

I'll remind you of what I said in my first post:



A vibrant evolving culture along the lines suggested by Chris is one thing; eventual domination by a culture that achieves a governing majority (if that happens) is quite another.

And calling me racist, to whatever degree, is disgraceful.
Well, continually posting things along the "Replacement Theory" lines, people will assume the "Duck Theory" applies...

---------- Post added at 15:52 ---------- Previous post was at 15:49 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaymoss (Post 36077856)
Dave and Stormzy told us last year at the Brits that everyone is racist
He didn't....

https://www.theguardian.com/music/20...racism-comment
Quote:
Stormzy has hit out at media outlets he accused of “intentionally spinning my words for some click bait” after comments he made in an interview about racism in the UK were misrepresented by various publications.

The grime artist gave an interview to the Italian newspaper La Repubblica last week in which he was asked if Britain was still racist, to which he replied: “definitely, 100%” even if such racism was “hidden”.

The quote was used in headlines and articles by outlets including ITV and several news websites to suggest that Stormzy had said the UK was 100% racist, rather than that he 100% believed there was racism in the country.

ITV apologised for the way it had covered the story, saying that while it had included Stormzy’s full response to the question on their website, its headline and a tweet about the story misrepresented what he had said.

“On Saturday we reported on an interview by an Italian newspaper with the British rapper Stormzy in which the subject of racism was discussed,” tweeted ITV news.

“[His] response was reproduced in full on our website. Despite this, it was felt the headline at the top of this story on our website and Twitter post did not reflect these comments fully and was therefore amended. The tweet regarding the quotes was also later removed. We would like to apologise to Stormzy for any misunderstanding.”

Sephiroth 24-04-2021 16:01
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hugh (Post 36077857)
Well, continually posting things along the "Replacement Theory" lines, people will assume the "Duck Theory" applies...
Only the stupid would do that. It would be preferable to properly engage on the point I'm making rather than play the race card and provide woke interpretations of culture.

Trouble is that the usual gang (apart from Carth - once) won't touch this topic for fear of the virtue bashing I'm suffering.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerning, you can close my thread.

Chris 24-04-2021 16:37
Re: British culture
 
It’s not “your” thread, and you’re not a moderator, so please lay off the bold instructions.

You’ve raised points others might wish to discuss, or rebut, and there has been no misbehaviour that warrants thread closure.

Hugh 24-04-2021 17:04
Re: British culture
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sephiroth (Post 36077859)
Only the stupid would do that. It would be preferable to properly engage on the point I'm making rather than play the race card and provide woke interpretations of culture.

Trouble is that the usual gang (apart from Carth - once) won't touch this topic for fear of the virtue bashing I'm suffering.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerning, you can close my thread.
Rebutting your points isn’t "playing the race card and providing woke interpretations of culture".

The fact that you have to resort to "ad hominem" attacks on those who disagree with you illustrates the weakness of your proposition.

Sephiroth 24-04-2021 17:42
Re: British culture
 
Bullying me is a poor show on your part. I offered a suggestion and you jumped on me.

Accusing me of being racist is playing the race card.

You still haven't addressed my suggestion that Islam is a culture at odds with British culture.


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