Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

According to various articles on eweek.com, F-Secure believed that was implicated with nasty practices.

For example,
http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Security/Wh...s-Coming-From/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Saying that once opted out, no data is passed through the phorm system is a blatant lie. Even when opted out data is ALWAYS mirrored to the profiler which is part of the phorm system.

The profiler may be owned by the ISP, HOWEVER, it would be obsolete if it were not for its requirement in the chain of the phorm system. Thus, no phorm equals no profiler. Ergo the profiler is part of the phorm system and as such phorm is in part responsible for its use.

Why? Because its phorms software running on the profiler. Therefore phorm does play a significant part in the functionality of the profiler.

SO STOP SAYING “If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server” because your just using semantics.

Further more, who audits any future software upgrades or amendments to the profilier?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi

Taken from the questions posed online;
The Profiler is owned by the ISP. If someone opts out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm. Phorm provides the software for the profiles, just like Cisco, for example, provides software for an ISP router. The ISP can see exactly what data is being passed in and out of its systems and has complete control over it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

AND YET AGAIN YOU HAVE NOT ANSWERED THE ACTUAL QUESTION!!!

Ive already stated that the software on the profiler is phorms, so why respond with the same cut n paste reply thats been appearing elsewhere.

The question was:
Who audits any future software upgrades or amendments to the profilier?

its a simple question no?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cisco has a reputation as supplier of network equipment.
Phorm (under former Company names) has a reputation associated with rootkits and spyware software.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormUktechteam,

It doesn't matter one iota who owns the profiler or who writes the software because one fact is virtually certain and that is if Phorm did not exist, neither would the profiler.

I am sorry but your answer does nothing to alleviate any fears and if anything you appear to be shifting the responsibility back to the ISP's which I doubt will please them.

There is a question that you can answer (maybe). Can you assure me\us that an opt-out ensures that no data of any kind passes through or is mirrored to the profiler?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

so would you please put a drawing diagram up of how you connect to the isp connection

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have no questions for Phorm. Discussion with Phorm is irrelevant and a red herring.

It is in their vested interest to offer platitudes, explanation and qualification for their proposals and they are here only to placate and manipulate.

I am not a customer of Phorm. I do not want Webwise, OIX, any form of 'Thought Police' monitoring or useless, distracting, irritating advertisements.

I am a customer of Virgin Media. I expect the customer contract of trust and privacy to be honoured. In return, I pay for the service I receive. Virgin Media should not expect to be paid twice for that service.

Phorm are greedy for high returns for minimum effort and VM are taking a big risk riding that gravy train. Time for a re-think VM before your dithering is exploited by rivals.

Phorm are not the issue. Virgin Media are the issue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yes I'm inclined to agree, although we must continue to oppose phorm by any means necessary.

yup, and it will continue to do so in the coming weeks/months as their share price wavers in the midst of all this controversy.

very well put :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I sent an email to them the other day stating that I didn't give them permission to use my data in the way they intend.

Got a phone call at 4.45 today stating that they had received my email but didn't have a start date and couldn't confirm that I'd be opted out from my contact with them.

However the woman on the phone kept telling me I'd have an opt out and that they'd be contacting ALL customers before launch. :erm:

I said that as far as I was concerned I'd told them I didn't want my data processing in any way other than to provide me with the service and that was that. If they then did I'd refer the matter to the IOC as a breach of the DPA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you. This scheme is aimed at taking everything and offering nothing.

I'll do the same. I am not interested in "how it will work". I want no part of it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

See, this is the point. There have been repeated quotes that no identifiable information will be sent to the Phorm system, no name, no address, no IP address, nothing (btw your IP address is stored against every post here, a forum moderator - with the right permissions- can see your IP address). There may be privacy issues yes, but so far no DPA issues that I can see of the quotes from Phorm, BT Website is true.

It can only be a breach of the DPA if personal identifiable information is sent.

I don't think for one minute that VM would do that, this is a matter of persoonal privacy between you and your ISP.

Whether or not we believe Phorm is one thing, whether we can trust VM to do the right thing, in our opinion, is a totally different matter. I have no intention of signing into this system, and I will sign out if I have to.

---------- Post added at 18:31 ---------- Previous post was at 18:18 ----------

Thanks Sirius. I can read, however your two posts seemed to contradict each other a little, possibly tainted by your feelings towards VM prior to this Phorm revalation. I just wanted you to clarify a point or two...which you have.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Let's not give any credence to any of the claims made by Phorm; we can't verify them and the goalposts may be moved at some time in the future.

It would make no difference to me if the data was provided in iambic pentameter and was processed by a blind, deaf, mute wearing rubber gloves and a nose clip, I don't want to 'share' anything that might be generated by my internet usage with any Tom, Dick or Harry that comes along hoping to make a fast buck.

Clearly neither do the majority of forum contributors. The way to respond is in numbers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And that is the big rub.....

Other ISP's have been in talks, they are just waiting to gauge the response from the so-called Big 3 ISP's.

The grass may be greener on the other side, but if its managed by the same farmer in the future....why move? :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well said!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Consider the following scenario:

1. Person A starts a web browser.
2. Person A attempts to start browsing.
3. The first page person A requests is hijacked and replaced by the Webwise page asking them whether they consent to Phorm monitoring their web browsing.
4. Person A decides to allow Phorm to monitor their web browsing.
5. A non-persistent (session) cookie is sent to the web browser showing that person A has consented.
6. The presence of this session cookie means that future web pages are not replaced by the Webwise consent page.*
7. Person A walks away from the computer without locking it, logging out or switching accounts and without closing their browsing session by closing all the browser windows.
8. Person B comes to the computer.
9. Person B starts browsing the web using the open web browser windows.
10. Person B is not presented with a Webwise consent page.
11. Phorm monitors person B’s web browsing without obtaining their consent.
12. Under RIPA, a criminal offence has now been committed.

I would like to know which, if any, of those statements is in error and why.

I don’t see how Phorm can rely on users behaving in the way they’d like. I think the assumption that one browsing session will be used by only one person is unreasonable and will not be supportable in law. The Internet is an ‘always on’ packet-based network. It’s not like the telephone, where, once you finish your communication with a specific second party, you put the receiver down and completely sever the connection.

*I know there have been comments that cookies are restricted to the domain from which they’ve come. I’m expecting some fairly dirty trick to get around that. As it has been stated that Webwise does not work with Safari, I conclude that Phorm haven’t got this trick working with that browser.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Probably not. An IP address and list of web sites visited does not constitute "personal information", as far as I can see:

http://www.dataprotectionact.org/2.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ROFL, surely it's been designed from the ground up to make Phorm & the ISPs shed loads of cash from selling customer browsing habits to advertisers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...012101340.html
"IP Addresses Are Personal Data, E.U. Regulator Says

By Aoife White
Associated Press
Tuesday, January 22, 2008; Page D01

BRUSSELS -- IP addresses, strings of numbers that identify computers on the Internet, should generally be regarded as personal information, the head of the European Union's group of data privacy regulators said Monday.

Germany's data-protection commissioner, Peter Scharr, leads the E.U. group, which is preparing a report on how well the privacy policies of Internet search engines operated by Google, Yahoo, Microsoft and others comply with E.U. privacy law.

Scharr told a European Parliament hearing on online data protection that when someone is identified by an IP, or Internet protocol, address, "then it has to be regarded as personal data."

His view differs from that of Google, which insists an IP address merely identifies the location of a computer, not who the individual user is.

That is true but does not take into consideration that many people regularly use the same computer and IP address.

Scharr acknowledged that IP addresses for a computer may not always be personal or linked to an individual. For example, some computers in Internet cafes or offices are used by several people.

These exceptions have not stopped the emergence of a host of "whois" Internet sites, which allow users to type in an IP address and will then generate a name for the person or company linked to it.

Treating IP addresses as personal information would have implications for how search engines record data.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

However for the admins/mods here to track that IP to me is very very difficult, for my ISP - not so hard. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I will not be using Sky for my broadband i will be Using Be Unlimited which is LLU and does NOT use the BT network. Just because my line is BT does not mean it will be Subject to Phorm ?

---------- Post added at 22:05 ---------- Previous post was at 21:55 ----------

Toto


No problem :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is intresting to see how many changes in the story about how the system works since it was first anounced.

on the 29th of feb it was reported at techcrunch the following

1) Privacy International approves Phorms Privacy claims. Something we now now is untrue

2) "Of course, data is secure as the companies that keep it - and it’s possible to de-anonomyse data. Phorm says it wouldn’t mix surfing data with, say, an ISP’s billing data on users."

This is the most telling thing I have read. 2 weeks ago Phorm state that it’s possible to de-anonomyse data. Now we are told the system is secure.

3) they say "What information they do have - which is just the surfing habits of that PC - gets deleted after a few hours"

If it is deleted after a few hours then it must be stored. Somthing that has been denied most strongly over the past few days.

Teh company is acting like any person who tells a lie and is found out - Change the story - and change it again.

read the full piece at

http://uk.techcrunch.com/2008/02/29/...nto-something/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its simple really. The company now known as Phorm was a Spyware and Root kit supplier. Therefor in my eyes they will never ever be trusted on my PC. I have the same feelings for Sony, I have no Sony equipment in my house and never ever will. Reason TRUST and they don't deserve it.

If Virgin introduce this then i will add them to the list as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Big surprise, German politicians pushing for more overreaching tech laws. If it's possible to track users by IP why do all search engines set identifier cookies? And tell me which individual is personally identified by 0x7f000001 ??? :dunce:

Search engines are opt-in services and IP address may be attached to but are not themselves personal data. Phorm propose to intercept all web requests without explicit user permission. Web page requests are likely to contain significantly more privacy sensitive information than whois entries for domain names or static IP assignments; and I don't care that they claim not (yet) to be logging this information.

The only thing of note about this article is that if our ICO don't take action over phorm, the EU are going to have a field day.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

thats the point of posting it, the EU IC states IPs are personal data, the UK are in the EU and subject to its laws etc.

you opt-out,its been said time and again,the data gets sent as far as the profiler at least, so they are subject to handling and collecting at least, as regards the UK IC DPA.

as they now say this data wont get anonymised and then passed along, so its still got the IP and other potential legally defined personal data inside.

http://www.dataprotectionact.org/4.html
data collection (as in sending to the profiler)


When handling, collecting, processing or storing personal data, ensure that:
a) all personal data is both accurate and up to date
b) errors are corrected effectively and promptly
c) the data is deleted/destroyed when it is no longer needed
d) the personal data is kept secure at all times (protecting from unauthorised disclosure or access)
e) the Data Protection Act is considered when setting up new systems or when considering use of the data for a new purpose. Note that this may affect the existing registration with the Data Protection Authority
f) written contracts are used when external bodies process/handle the data explicitly specifying the above requirements with respect to the data
It is equally important NOT to:
a) access personal data that you do not need for your work
b) use the data for any purpose it was not explicitly obtained for
c) keep data that would embarrass or damage YOUR-COMPANY if disclosed (eg: via a subject access request – see below)
d) transfer personal data outside of the European Economic Area unless you are certain you are entitled to or consent from the individual concerned has been obtained
e) store/process/handle sensitive personal data (see below) unless are certain you are entitled to or consent from the individual concerned has been obtained

---------- Post added at 23:25 ---------- Previous post was at 23:10 ----------

btw i just took the url from above someone else posted, on closer inspection its not an official UK/ICO site, infact its housed in the US.
http://www.who.is/whois-org/ip-addre...ectionact.org/
so to get a better understanding of the exact UK/EU meaning, read the act, or put some effort in an find a better UK source...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke) :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does anyone else find it suspicious that Simon Davies, 80/20 Thinking and Privacy International are all strangely quiet on this?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

EXACTLY!

If Phorm don't have that information passed to them, AND the ISP's trace data on an individual IP address date and time....then it isn't personal information.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The discussion on IP's is IMO central to the underlying issue in everything we do on the internet and the guardianship of the final unravelling of the difference between a code giving ISP and customer number at a coded geographic area and the account holder's name and address is entrusted to the ISP. It could be reasonably believed that the ISP's would only yield to pressure to reveal the actual account holder if criminal activity had taken place on the IP and a court order obliged them to break confidence with the account holder.

Trust that our ISP will behave totally responsibly is a fundamental basic requirement in our relationship with our ISP and I believe that whether perceived or actual, the ISP's are behaving as though their responsibility can be sold for thirty pieces of silver. It of course may be that within the confines of data protection laws etc they have stopped short of a breach of the laws of the land but they are without doubt displaying a cavalier attitude towards the trust placed in them by customers. Once trust is lost it is almost impossible to regain.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I also think Phorm’s claim that no information gets written to disc is probably rather misleading. When people look at their computer at home and think “where am I going to store 500GB of data?”, the answer will be “on a hard disc.” If you’re a business, this isn’t necessarily so. You could get something like the Gear6 CACHEfx.

Gear6 satiates hungry apps with 500GB RAM monster

I’m not suggesting Phorm will be using that. They’ve probably built their own storage system using standard parts.

Phorm have only got to store textual pages. So, not memory-hogging images and videos. Let’s assume the average HTML page is 100KB in size. You could get around 5 million pages into 500GB, allowing for storage overheads.

Many big pages contain a lot of junk. They’re generated on request, using things like PHP. They’ll contain the same code snippets over and over again, lots of white space or even large numbers of HTML comments. That could all be stripped out prior to caching. It could be as simple as stopping passing on the stream when a ‘<’ is reached and starting again on the next ‘>’. You might want to collect the alternative text for images. That would add a bit of complexity, but there’s no reason why it can’t be done in real-time within the stream, saying using some FPGAs.

If you strip out all the crud, you might get down to an average of 25KB per page. Then, you’d get around 20 million pages into 500GB of RAM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My complaint has always been technical, that opt-out should be at the network level per subscriber and requests from those who opt out should never reach phorms anonymiser or profiler. So I followed your advice and put some effort in, skimming both the DPA and 2002/58. Indeed, any ISP seriously considering the current opt-out phorm system needs to hire a legal team who understand "legal stuff".

Alternatively ISPs could allow subscriber opt-in at layer 3; avoiding the legal and technical issues with phorms value-subtracting service entirely.

The web page itself may be, where the user is logged-in or has an active session.

:erm:

Or they could scan for keywords and only store association data... who am I kidding? Based on the design of the rest of the system, phorm are probably doing it exactly like you say ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Telegraph online thinks we should Shut up or pack up!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mebbe if I was paying "£9.99 a month" {Telegraph} I would be a little more accepting of Phorm (though probably not)!!

As it is I pay £37 a month for 20MB which isn't exactly cheap and now VM want more money.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Precisely, not only does the article fail to take into account the expensive tiers, it also comletely ignores the technical ramifications that this whole debacle has unearthed.
Oh, and he also pulled out the good old Google gambit, which you guys have nailed down so succinctly with the "at least Google is an opt-in concept, if we don't want to use it we don't have to!" notion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not only that but Google doesn't track every page that we visit, so family home pages and photo albums for example are unlikely to have been surfed to via a search engine.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One thing I was reading on ElReg was the interview with Phorm where they claim that using this piece of tosh will actually reduce online advertising in the future.

OK...hard to believe, but there you go.

Later on, the statement is made that people who don't use this piece of tosh will still be bombarded with ads. How can these two statements correlate?

If websites are going to realise that targeted ads mean that they can design their pages to incluse fewer ad banners, surely they won't go to the trouble of designing two versions of the same page; one targeted with 4 or 5 ads and one untargeted with 20 ads?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all
I will try and work through some of the points raised above, but if any of these answers fall short on the technical front (I am but a humble comms person) then feel free to drop a line to techteam@phorm.com
I wil try and post up individual posts for each point rasied.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, I would like to ask him if HE would be happy to have HIS ISP adopt the Phorm system.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you opt out of Phorm and are not using ad blocking software then yes you will still be bombarded with ads, just as people are today. Phorm is all about cutting down that stream and increasing the value of each ad that is left - I know it sounds counterintuitive but it actually holds a lot of water - one ad that is twice as likely to be picked up on by the recipient is worth twice as much to the advertiser.

---------- Post added at 09:13 ---------- Previous post was at 09:02 ----------

In terms of audit, the claims Phorm make as regards systems, policies and procedures are regularly audited by the privacy audit department of Ernst & Young.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That all really depends on Phorm becoming a big success - something some of us are going to try very hard to prevent. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I do not have that information in black and white in front of me so I have passed this over to Phorm.

---------- Post added at 09:21 ---------- Previous post was at 09:17 ----------

To clarify,

Phorm can never know who you are or where you've browsed. All that is ever stored is a random number, advertiser categories eg sport or travel and a timestamp. Phorm technology cannot tie into the ISPs authentication systems or any other information the ISP holds on their subscriber.

---------- Post added at 09:24 ---------- Previous post was at 09:21 ----------

I will forward this to the tech team and get a full reply on this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I understand the reasoning that, in theory, more targeted ads means that there will be less square yardage of ad-space on any given website.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, what will actually transpire is that there will be the same square yardage of ad-space, filled with targeted ads this time, with companies such as Phorm making out like bandits and ISP's creaming off extra revenue by using their customers in a morally corrupt way.
So, the claim that Phorm will lead to us NOT being bombarded with ads is completely false.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Again I will pass this over to Phorm for clarification

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, it looks like the covert "keep one step ahead of the disgruntled customers" game has started, even before the Phorm system goes live on the VM network.
Anyone following this story from the beginning will have read quite early-on that you could at least partially block the functionality (if not the spying part) of the system by blocking a specific domain. 7 days ago, this domain was clearly identified on the www.webwise.com FAQs as "OIX.net" and so I diligently added it to the blocked domains list of my router.
Guess what? I checked back with the same page this morning, and the same FAQ no longer lists "OIX.net" as the domain to block; it now lists "www.webwise.net".
As I pointed out in a (much) earlier post, it will be SO easy for Phorm to change the name of the server in their system, thus bypassing everyone's block. On this occasion, they've buried this change in their FAQs, but in the future, they may well not even do that.
It is becoming clear that if we want to even hinder their system on our connections, we're going to have to constantly check what they're up to and what connections are being made by our browsers - a full time job in itself.

And this Company expects us to trust them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly.

If a web page has five ads then either I'll see five targeted ads or I'll see five random ads, but I'll still see five ads.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Both oix.net & webwise.com resolve to 88.208.248.102

That's not to say they won't change it again in the future...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The article in the Telegraph on line is a pathetic plea aimed at getting people to think with their wallets.

The much heralded £85 million to BT for implementing this deal equals about a pathetic little £1 per month per BT ADSL customer. If the potential rewards are pro rata, by customer base, with the other ISP's this strikes as an extraordinarily low reward\high risk endeavour. The ISP's can sell their souls for thirty pieces of silver but not mine.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks - I should have checked that first...:o:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What Phorm offers is that those five ads are relevant to you - lets say you are a fisherman who drives a Maserati and loves country and western music. Would you rather ads on Italian cars, new fishing rods and the new Dolly Parton album, or ads on bakery books, ju-jitsu training and cardigans. Obviously the former - because it has more relvance and value to you as a person.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It makes no difference whatsoever what is in those ads - I ignore ads now, and I'll ignore ads if this abomination is foisted on me. So how does your business model apply to me?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Phorm have decided to represent themselves on this forum because of the furore generated in objection to their plans. It cannot have escaped the attention of Virgin Media itself that there are many of their customers less than pleased with potentially being monitored by a third party (despite all the reassurances to the contrary; no disrespect intended).

Virgin Media is a Company of high standard; like all business, it is built on a customer base that pays a fair price for the service provided.

Would it be possible for someone senior in the Company to join this forum and advise its customers of its plans and the reasoning behind them please?

As Mick has repeatedly and rightly said, provided the discussion remains civil, we might find out a bit more than we know about this scheme.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I take no notice of Ads. EVen if they are Ads of things which would interest me. I dont click on Ads, i dont acknowledge them, and wherever possible i block them. All my surfing habits and especially my online purchasing is done from sites i know and trust. Your adverts will not make a difference to this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

During Phorm CEO's interviews he mentioned that website owners, bloggers etc could avail themselves of a liaison with his companies and that could lead to the prospect of an enhanced experience for owners and users.

It looks as though targeted ads are going to be fed to opt-in people as opposed to the supposed random ones already in place. That sounds a lot like strip and replace the existing revenue earners for websites and that strikes me as a potentially wicked form of coercion.

If strip and replace is the method and how can they possibly reduce ads without stripping then the ISP's and Phorm had better be prepared with hundreds of copyright lawyers because a site has a right to expect that what they produce is what the end user gets.

If strip and replace is the method that is going to be adopted then a complaint to the various webmasters with screen grabs of with and without could generate thousands of concurrent court cases. The much heralded £85 million would look pitifully small in the face of a tsunami of claims.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats a very selfish way to look at things. How do you think sites like this stay online, by ads. I make a point of clickin on a few ads now and again even if I've got no interest in them because I know for every time its a little more £ for the sites I use which helps keep them online.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I Donate to the smaller sites i use.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After wasting my time reading this then sending a link to someone who works within the news pressindustry he wa shocked. He said it reads more like a PR reply for Phorm without any real investigation into peoples fears. also he quoted

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello are Ernst & Young either

1) a Hi tech computer company

2) Computer security experts

3) Accountants

phone 0799 92761 for your chance to win 10,000 pounds

My question to Phorm
How much did you pay Ernst & Young for the audit?
Have you had an audit done by any independant computer security experts?

(for Phorm who are not based in the UK. Accountancy audits + GMTV = coverup)

:) If you connect all the spin put out by Phorm, to a power generator could you could solve the world energy crisis:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just what information have you got in black and white?
Any of the reports that Phorm say they have completed with results for security and protection of our data?
Results from any tests completed with happy customers remarks?
Why is this trialing in the UK instead of America who spend more money online than we do?


Who will write the new scrpts once Phorm is in place?
Who will control the updating of servers?

In your present role as PR for Phorm just what expertise have you on understanding how scripts work on computers/servers and just how easy it is to update a script to grab more infroamtion from our computers without us knowinf once this goes live. Yes a quick script update could change the gathering od no data to knowing everything.
MPO this is too great a risk to hand over to a company with the background of this company.


Could you also ask if I have this on my pc workign and visit ISPreview.co.uk who have some adverts for helping to pay the bills will these adverts be changed to more acceptable ones in Phorm's scripting or will I still see the ones that should be there?

Since I have an internet connection ( and until this brown stuff hit the fan was happy to stay) I dont search for ISPs but more computers, games cars and anything else that friends ask for help on so ISPreviews adverts for ISPs would change to more relevent ads?
Like3 stripping ISPr adds and putting up phorm adds that are from businesses who pay phorm to advertise them?

This from a a good friends who works for the press is really befitting the phorm way.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i've been looking through a few sites this morning regarding this whole Phorm thing. I too wondered why Ernst and Young's name was constantly being bandied about.

I found this SITE which again used the Privacy International spin, which we know PI have refuted. They also claim in the article that APACS the UK payments association love it too .
It seems that any intelligence has vanished from these organisations, and they're falling hook line and sinker for the Phorm "it's safer" spin.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bit-by-bit, Phorm's CEO and other employees have admitted that even with an explicit opt-out, all our webpages will still pass through the hardware that Phorm are installing in our ISPs infrastructure, and that hardware is the place that data anaylsis will be done on the content of our web browsing. Regardless of whether the result of that data analysis is used to serve adverts or stored anywhere, people must realise that once this genie is out of the bottle, there's no putting it back.
By this I mean that once the ISPs networks have had packet analysis hardware installed throughout, then it becomes possible in the future for the company that controls that hardware to change the nature of what is does. We have assurances that the current software installed in these boxes goes out of it's way to collect no personally-identifiable information, but it is just that - software.
The thing about software is that it can be upgraded, changed and even replaced with completely different software, and should Phorm decide to chance their arm in the future (or, more likely, the government changes data protection laws to allow more intrusion) it's a very simple task to change that software and instantly start to do something much more sinister with our browsing data. Indeed, Phorm have already hinted at this with statements about adding "functionality" in the future.
Of course, should other legislation be passed in the future regarding state-monitoring of our web activities, the physical infrastructure to do this will already be in place, thanks to Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you phorm.

One good thing that this whole episode has done is to make me take notice of web ads.

Before 2 weeks ago I was happy to see the adverts, no big deal and a bit of screen space used up.

I now have Adblock installed, and noscript. I am also checking my router logs and blocking ad farms and other junk at the router.

So my web experiance is now better thanks to Phorm, it is now faster and advert free. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As a few others have mentioned Simon Davies seems to be very quiet on the issue, and when he writes a piece like this , in September of last year, it really does make me wonder where his sudden affection for Phorm and it's actions has come from.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If it's selfish to choose not to read/watch/listen to advertisements then I'm selfish.
I'm afraid that I don't agree with your view that advertising on the internet is a price worth paying for diversity. I wonder how much of this PR fiasco is due to the lack of understanding by an American businessman (Kent Ertugrul) of the differences between the American public's attitude to advertising and that of the UK public, where we have cherished, non-commercial institutions like the BBC? And before you start the "ah..but the BBC is licence-funded" argument: so is my Virgin media internet connection - to the tune of £37 a month!
You'll be calling us communists next :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With respect, Ernst & Young have years of auditing experience. Of course Phorm had to pay them. They will employ specialists in many fields including accounting, IT, forensic examination (computing and accounts), and business management and law, with offices and local experts all around the world. To even hint that Phorm could be involved in any cover up with Ernst & Young could put this message board in danger of breach of libel/defamatory rules in the UK, resulting in potential civil action against the hosting company, and the board owners....so be careful please.

Their audit was carried out using American privacy guidelines, which may well not carry any weight in the UK.

Phorm have already said that their systems and process can be audited to meet exacting UK standards (whatever they are), and I think its only a matter of time.

VM, BT and Talk Talk will have their own acredited Internet Security specialists in-house, or on contract, and they will be responsible for making sure that any equipment in place, permanently or on a trial basis meets UK RIPA standards and Internal security best practice.

I'd like to see the spin cut out, and get down to the real nitty gritty too. Sell it how you want, but webwise is just another link in the chain. A good browser and simple common sense will stop most phishing sites, and is yet to be proved that WW is a safer experience, or adds any value to Internet safety.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would agree that Ernst and Young is highly reputable company which has and deserves maximum respect.

In the attached Url to their Pdf document the penultimate paragraph is very worthy of note.

http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/EY_Phorm_Exam.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PeopleSoft case
http://www.forbes.com/2002/05/21/0521topnews.html

WorldCom, Ernst & Young, Enron
http://www.albetzreporting.com/cs_worldcom.html

Investigations still on for Ernst & Young, PricewaterhouseCoopers
http://www.sundaytimes.lk/070204/Fin...mes/ft309.html

Ernst & Young have also had criminal investigations by the New York grand jury in 2004/2005 which resulted in a large settelment to avoid criminal procedings

I am sorry. The public record shows that Ernst & Young does not have such a good history.

So please forgive me if I dont trust this respected company. Who like may others were mixed up in Enron

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Started to search the names mentioned in this quote.
FT.com = American news almost sure any adverts from them will incurr inport and shipping costs more relevent to the American ISP market so why n ot start in America?

iVillage = more a community covers Health •Diet•Pregnancy & Parenting•Beauty & Style•Home & Garden•Go Green•Food•Weddings•Love•Entertainment•Astrology•G ames VIDEOS•PHOTOS•BLOGS•MESSAGE BOARDS•CONNECT•iVILLAGE CARES
//iLEARN•SHOPPING.

Universal McCann = universal advertising company.

MGM OMD = this would be no suprise with links to MGM can be sure P2P will not work through this system it will be black listed not that I ever use it but many do for one thing or another.

Where I already have all their adverts blocked which shows i don't want this stuff forced onto me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"The form service is designed to avoid the collection and storage of Personally Identifiable Information (PII), however you have the right to request a copy of any information that Phorm may have about you and to have any inaccuracies corrected."

So the system is not designed to collect PII but if it does you can always get in touch to update your profile? At the same time, you could always add a bit more like the colour of your socks and underwear so that the profile is completely comprehensive.

Cat, bag, out of.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think I might save that file just in case it "goes missing" over the next few days.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wonder whether the Torygraph's website has signed up with OIX, perhaps...




Any chance of Phorm being audited according to UK/EU privacy & data protection standards, instead of American?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting that a former boss at the Telegraph is behind the launch of OIX Source : Here

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Christ all this time and still no solid answers for me to have nothing concrete after all this time tells me there are things we are not to know about. All this about targeted ad's is really ****ing me off as it seems phorm can't understand i want no ad's and if i have to suffer them it will be because i choose to not because phorm think it is relevent to me. Also i have the sneaking suspicion that this term "relevent" equates to whoever pays us. I go to my online bank site to check balance and phorm decides finance ad's are relevent to me. Phorm and all it's representatives please take note of the hostility and anger you have caused and retreat from this because while in the start it may be bad for users i gaurantee this will end very badly for you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm asking them not to process my data in any way that isn't required for providing my service. In doing this I'm asking them not to pass any info about my account to phorm - that's any info, not just personally identifiable info. :)

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/Acts/acts1998...029_en_10#sch2

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this would be normal connection to the internet as i see
Attachment 15950

is this how phorms/webwise is connecting to the isp connection?
Attachment 15951

if so this is happening without my consent then phorms/webwise is intercepting my direct connection without my express permission or consent in doing so is illegal
and is something i would never grant them to do or allow my isp to allow this connection to a third party

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000..._20000023_en_2

can phorms explain how they insert code into the explorer page after interception and then sent onto other parties sites

as i believe in doing so would be breaking major browsers, including Internet Explorer, Firefox, Netscape and Opera html page code of practices

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone experiencing any delays in browsing of late? :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As far as I am concerned, any privacy assurances given by a commerical company are not worth the paper they're written on. The only audit I would even consider trusting would be one undertaken by a neutral, non-profit making organization who has nothing to gain or lose by telling the truth. Ernst & Young can claim to be impartial, but at the end of the day, if they publish conclusions that scupper the client's product, then they're not going to attract much future business, are they?
I don't think the UK government are going to stick up for us on this one, because there's the promise of someone somewhere making a huge pile of money out of this, and they seem to be much more interested in "economic growth" than "citizen welfare" - so I think the EU is a better bet. Maybe we all ought to be writing to our MEPs about this (I don't even know what mine's name is...)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The more protest the higher the risk of the companies being hit in the share price.

sign here

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

And make as much protest as you can, and hope that the share prices start to drop at the start of trading tomorrow.

The only way to stop this is to hit the companies involved through the market.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

gosh - it's hard work keeping up with this! Can someone explain how phorm differs from google ads?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Google adds can be blocked, Phorm can not.

Using google is an example that Phorm is confusing the issue.

Phorm is spywear google is not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's not the ads that have got people most worried - it is possible to block the Phorm ads by blocking the cookie that anonymously identifies you to the Phorm system (sounds like a contradiction, doesn't it?!)
What is far more concerning is the fact that even if you opt-out of the Phorm system, the hardware in Virgin Media's network that Phorm have installed to analyse your browsing habits still intercepts all your web browsing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

AYE last night bigtime.

Was trying to update my mio maps for my sat nav.

It was sending the packets but then being delayed for receiving.

A strange HTTP error was being reported by the Mio updater as the update program kept crashing.

Now I not suggesting this was PHORM but its never happened before why NOW.

If anybody can tell me why this happens.

ps on this program for firefox.

Can he make the cookie imune from normal deletion I always clear cookies very quick if I have to enable.

I tend to run my browsing with them switched OFF.

Otherwise anybody know where firefox keeps them to save it and put it in the cookie folder.

I know where IE stores them but just cant find firefoxes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

also you dont need phorm/webwise to block phishing as google and other browsers do it anyway
same with hotmails toolbar it blocks unwanted advertisements

its just that we dont need this phorm/webwise as most of us already have it implemented on our systems by our own choice we opted to use them so we have no need for them or to be forced to use them or them to be on our connection at all

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not entirely sure what you are driving at here, but if it is, as I suspect, "how do they replace the site's ads?", then it's simple. Sites, if they want their ads to be replaced, have to opt in. As such, it is reasonable to assume that if a site's owners want to use Phorm for advertising, the code will already be there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I been thinking about the way PHORM works.

I can see what will happen it will cripple VM ISP. Like I said in a past comment it would not be suprised why we have had issues in the past as VM trialed something on monitoring.

Just think of all of us accessing the web and searching, browsing downloading at some point it will have a cap. To boot them spamming all there rubbish adverts to all and sundry. What happens when the PHORM cap hits its limit it will break.

I have been thinking if done by accident by there sheer volume (not exactly hard with VM fragile nature) or deliberately trying to deceive your footprint you can see what will happen. I really can see there will be users flood to try and give false profiling. All this in my opinion WILL slow down the web for VM users and possible cripple it.

In the end VM will scrap it because it WILL become totally unworkable.

I actually think it really will be quite easy to make a false profile by using a program to try deceive your normal browsing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps, but this, from their FAQ page, seems straightforward enough:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simple: Unless you have signed into a google service on your browser (such as gmail), then google ads are based on the content of the page you are browsing. This is why people sometimes get ads for things they would never normally be interested in. However, no yt

Apparently, if you sign in to any google service (although google don't actually make this clear), then Google ads do track you. I must stress, I don't know for sure if this does happen. As Google's system is entirely based on the ad code on the page, and cookies (as such, it runs on the browser), it is also easy to block (block javascript on the site, or cookies and Googleads is crippled).

The phorm system works differently. For a start, while the system can be configured so that people need to opt in to recieve the ads, or opt out not to recieve them, it is likely that each isp will opt in all it's users by default.

Secondly, Phorm install hardware on the ISP's network that is used to do the tracking, and insert the ads if appropriate.

Now, while they state that they do not store a personally identifiable browsing history (note: regardless of what they say, they do store a history that can be tracked to the user, if they didn't, then the system wouldn't work), we have no way of checking that they aren't storing the data even if they don't serve ads. It is also difficult to stop them. Well, not that difficult if you want to trust system such as TOR, but bearing in mind that due to the anonymous nature of TOR, there are some dodgy people on it, I am not sure it's trustworthy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

aye peeps might want to be interested that PHORM uses www.godaddy.com where PHORM register from.

which according to my netanlyser. It comes with some interesting servers for OIX.NET


Referral URL: http://registrar.godaddy.com
Name Server: NS1.OIX.NET
Name Server: NS2.OIX.NET

plus some PHORM whois search finds the PHORM servers

Name Server: NS1.PHORM.COM
Name Server: NS2.PHORM.COM

I would assume blocking these absolutely KILLS PHORM at our end. Unless there are others.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes Chris - that's my point ;)- it was straightforward enough last week, too, but the domain was different. So how often are they going to change it? Are we going to have to check their FAQs every week to see what we need to block?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I THink PHORM IS LIVE. Just shows how much we are being lied too.


How long as it been LIVE.


I just went on a website and this add on program HAS DETECTED a phorm attack with this program going to forum on a footy website.

It said PHORM was present when accessing the forum.

I have noticed 2 cookies

in the grimsby-townfc.premiumtv.co.uk which look EXTREMELY DODGY

cookietest
takeover

what are these above cookies is this opt out an absolute scam that it dont work and these cookies will enter your pc if opt out exists.

If you dare enter here is the forum please enter at own risk make sure your opted out and the firefox add on working. THIS WEB FORUM IS PHORMED.:mad:

(just using the link below you actually can bypass PHORM

http://www.extra-gtfc.co.uk/mbp3321885900php/

However go though its main website and enter this forum through

http://www.grimsby-townfc.premiumtv.co.uk/page/Home/

by going to the tag fans then clicking the messageboard actives PHORM code.

which despite my OPT OUT cookie present puts some dodgy looking cookies.

If I find more sites I will post and see if these cookies are PHORM based.

To be honest would not be suprised this is the first instance of PHORM.

If you dare check it out the add on warns you of phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is it not just because it opens another FF browser? If you right click any link and open in a new browser the dephormation script runs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Mertle didnt you send a DPA notice?, if anyone else did and your also seeing what Mertle said, then its perhaps ICO fun time.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hang on. Run that past me again. Slowly this time.

What makes you think this is anything to do with Phorm? It seems to be because you don't like the names of the cookies. I could call a cookie "dangerous_fbi_interception_cookie" but it wouldn't mean anything.

What program detected a 'phorm attack'? What is a 'phorm attack' anyway?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't panic mertle - this doesn't look like Phorm to me. The two cookies you mention: "takeover" just contains "Y" and cookietest contains "ok" - neither of which provide any information useful to the phorm system (one of them would have to contain an ID string, which is not likely to be "Y" or "ok" !!)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

a false positive then , probably quite a few more of those before we're done.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you check it out and if this addon works you will see what I am experiencing.

I am not sure about the cookies I just want advice if they could be the little pests they may be inocent to phorm. It about trying to seek them out so we know what to block. The website to the forum DOES activate the PHORM script.

As I state PHORM DOES seem to be live now.

Also this website when entering forums the program DETECTS PHORM.

http://s2.excoboard.com/exco/forum.p...b75601093c8c4a

We are told its NOT supposed to be working yet but this actually seems not the case.

Now it could be from BT but I always thought premium TV was NTL.

No doubt bit more browsing will find others out there.


POPPER no it was not me but it does seem we are in a state of War.;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, so I've figured out that you're talking about the Dephormation plugin. I've installed it and visited those URLs you listed. Nothing happened. No warning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks but whats activating the warning. Something during this click proscess is going to phorm or the program does not work.

I doubt that as this thing never screamed PHORM 2 days ago on the same site. Not a peep from the addon so why tonight. I willl check my router to see what happens.

If you check my other post found another forum which triggers the addon..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Where do we send this and what do I have to do to send them the DPA notice. I have spoken on the phone but the person I spoke to kept saying she has no idea what I was on about, never heard anything about it.

I also requested in the news VM webwise feedback thread that none of my internet acces was to be used.