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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

Florence 07-03-2008 12:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34502151)
It is usually after the card number though not before it on most web forms when paying by credit card. But even so...

I thought they couldn't read or intercept encrypted data anyway. Which this data will be.

A CVS is useless without the full 16 digit card number. The two sets of 4 digits for the start and expiry date.

After watching the video a few times he is very uneasy when answering certain questions, to me this is where he is holding back on the truth. If they can supply such information to try and trick people into using this then you canot trust anything they do. It is also so easy to update scripts withing a package without the EU knowing and before long they have your whole life details from bank to medical..



As for where I would go if this was implemented, some express a fear of the BT network this needs to be looked at as it stands now.

BT is split into more than one company.

BT openreach.

Deals with faults fitting new lines and such the Engineers side.

BT Wholesale.

Supplies BB to other companies.

BT Retail.

This is where phorm is supposed to be beta tested.

I am going to email Ben to ask him if there is any chance that phorm will be used on the BT wholesale side aswell as the retail.

Shaun 07-03-2008 13:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501451)
Hi All,

I'm from the tech team at phorm and wanted to point you in the direction of a couple of articles that have come out that might help to clarify some of the issues that have come up on the boards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm

You'll see that the beeb is also a little confused over the role Simon Davies (Director of Privacy Intl and MD of 80/20 Thinking) played in conducting our Privacy Impact Assessment which I have tried to clarify on another board, Political Penguin:

http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/b...#comment-40910

and to be doubly doubly clear: Simon Davies as a privacy consultant conducted the PIA wearing his 80/20 hat and with his fellow colleague at the LSE.

Seems your CEO is confused about PIs involvement too:

Quote:

Jim_Murray: Further, how do you respond to the statement by Professor Anderson (Cambridge University) in a This is Money article that 'if you care about yourprivacy, do not use BT, Virgin or Talk Talk'?


KentErtugrul: I believe that given the chance to fully understand our technology, Professor Anderson will reach the same conclusion as Privacy International, Ernst and Young and any number of key privacy stakeholders,
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?10

No wonder the Beeb and consumers are confused if you own CEO has no idea what the guys involvement is. :rolleyes:

So do PI endorse your product or not?

I've been open minded about this product until I found out my ISP can't switch it off AND I've spent some time reading your PR initiative where different answers are given by different people. :erm:

---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ----------

Quote:

Dephormation.org.uk: Will the 'opt out' cookie expire? Why? After what time period? If I flush my cookies, will I need to 'opt-out' again?

MBurgess: The opt-out cookie expires after two years. Why? Two years is a LONG TIME on the Internet! Seriously though, we would consider extending the lifetime if you think it's a big issue ...

Yes, if you delete your cookies, you would need to opt out again, unless you block cookies from webwise.net, in which case you will be opted out permanently.
I can see a market for a small program that will block their cookie across browsers. That is if they're telling the truth. If they really want people to be able to opt out (and not opt out then fall through the net when the cookie is lost) then perhaps an open source program from them would be an idea. :erm:

Florence 07-03-2008 14:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
As all members are aware I have no way of knowing what IP or email details this Phorm tech used to join this forum but working from details I have aquired I noticed a link with one Phorm rep and a company which in their words.

Quote:

Corporate Communications & Reputation Management

Citigate Dewe Rogerson partners with its clients with the core belief that public relations must support business strategy. We exist to help manage and protect the reputations and business product portfolios of our clients. We deliver campaigns with huge business impact. We develop reputation management programmes and sophisticated corporate communications plans powered by unrivalled sector knowledge, intelligent use of knowledge and clear industry insights.

From another section same website.

Launching Products and Services

Citigate Dewe Rogerson has a wealth of experience in supporting the marketing of new products and services for clients of all sizes across all industry sectors. We understand the important role that public relations plays in launching a new offering and how it can give a product or service the ‘edge’ over the competition. Regardless of whether your audience is business or consumer, we will develop a creative public relations campaign that achieves maximum media exposure.
Looks like they are being paid to help the general British public accept this phorm which I am totaly against.

Toto 07-03-2008 14:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34502150)
The CVS number is generally imputed in a different field on a form or web page. If that 3 digit number is sent as 3 digits then they WILL have it.

Actually no. No Phorm data is collected from pages served over HTTPS. If any user is daft enough to enter financial data over a standard port 80 connection, they really ought not to be using the Internet.

Florence 07-03-2008 14:24

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34502238)
Actually no. No Phorm data is collected from pages served over HTTPS. If any user is daft enough to enter financial data over a standard port 80 connection, they really ought not to be using the Internet.

Toto we only have their word for this and this is a companyn with a history that isn't what I would trust my life with. Going of their past record would rather continue to protect my privacy my way.

none 07-03-2008 14:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Detailed interview with Kent Ertegrul posted on The Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...gess_ertegrul/

Does it put your mind at rest? not on your nelly!

Sirius 07-03-2008 14:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34502238)
Actually no. No Phorm data is collected from pages served over HTTPS. If any user is daft enough to enter financial data over a standard port 80 connection, they really ought not to be using the Internet.

Hey Toto i will not have to worry. I will not be using VM for my broadband when this Spyware is forced on us.

popper 07-03-2008 14:34

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
when i read this FBI story
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...-whoever-likes

"internet spying rules
Oops, we did it again

By INQUIRER Newsdesk: Friday, 07 March 2008, 10:48 AM

SNOOPS AT THE FBI have admitted they repeatedly break their own rules about spying on the internet.

For the fourth year running, FBI director Robert Mueller said the agency reguilarly goes beyond its legal limits to collect information on people's emails and web wibbling.

In an interesting twist, Mueller tried to claim that this wasn't really the FBI's fault. The telcoms companies the snoops roped in on the cunning plan kept providing "too much information", he said.

"We are committed to ensuring that we not only get this right, but maintain the vital trust of the American people," he said.
...
"
i have to wonder..., replace FBI with tech Phorm comments all over the place such as
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501464-post602.html
"Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism ...."

its clear the implication is , its the ISPs fault not Phorms if this all goes titsup as it were...

Sirius 07-03-2008 14:39

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Well they have answerd the question in a round about way.
Quote:

Ok, so if I'm opted out, data passes straight between me and the website I'm visiting? It doesn't enter Phorm's systems at all?

MB: What happens is that the data is still mirrored to the profiler but the data digest is never made and the rest of the chain never occurs. It ought to be said that the profiler is operated by the ISP, not us.
So Virgin Media will still have the data to do with as they wish. So the OPT OUT is in fact a red herring and a blatant LIE

The decision as to OPT IN OPT OUT has been made also.

Quote:

It'll be automatically switched on then?

KE: The conversation over opt-in/opt-out is blurred by the one about transparency. They want to always be aware about whether something is on or off.

So we're going to do something unprecedented, and you'll never see this anywhere. Which is, as they continue to browse periodically you're going to see in an ad space "Webwise is on" or "Webwise is off", so it's more like a feature. Frankly, it's bad business to have people feel like something is being forced on them. Google stores everything you search, but it never says, "look, by the way we're storing all this and we keep it for a year".

This is not about a bunch of flim-flam artists trying to push something on the public. We couldn't do that. It would be stillborn if we even tried. We're very happy to talk about how everything works and what it means.
So to cut out the spin. Yes its on and we will tell you its on. ?

popper 07-03-2008 14:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
it would seem then, that it comes under the "... processed for limited purposes;; adequate, relevant and not excessive; ..." part of the DPA, no matter were its being done, its far outside all of these requirements.

Mick 07-03-2008 14:50

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502249)
Detailed interview with Kent Ertegrul posted on The Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...gess_ertegrul/

Does it put your mind at rest? not on your nelly!

This opted out business is becoming more hmmm - So nothing is sent to Phorm but its still going to the profiling at the ISP side... Erm why if you have opted out? :erm:

TheBruce1 07-03-2008 15:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
KE: Net neutrality is fascinating. Basically, the websites are at opposite ends of the discussion. What Phorm does is make the ISP the greatest partner a website can have. We think this resolves the tension between websites and ISPs that is the function of net neutrality. It brings both onto the same side.

We're very optimistic in the US
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...gess_ertegrul/


So, the long term goal of Phorm is Net Neutrality. It is well know that some would like to see the internet controlled somehow, companies such as Phorm using their technology can take this process forward.
Websites and users not opted-in to Phorm will have their connection throttled by the ISP, those that opt-in will not, in the end, only those websites that opt-in will manage to survive, of course you will have to adhere to their polices, which could mean no criticism of Governments/Companies ect.. which have signed up to Phorm.

Toto 07-03-2008 15:04

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34502245)
Toto we only have their word for this and this is a companyn with a history that isn't what I would trust my life with. Going of their past record would rather continue to protect my privacy my way.

Of course its your right to handle your own privacy and security. I am only reporting on what I know. I don't like this system at all, and in the field of my expertise it is very concerning.

popper 07-03-2008 15:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
its obvious they are now trying to cover their rear's when this was stated 'It ought to be said that the profiler is operated by the ISP, not us.".

the profiler is owned by Phorm, and as their property, its their legal responseability, and so they are still receaving/processing data unauthorised.

Toto 07-03-2008 15:11

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Can I respectully suggest to those who have not done so, too feedback your concerns to virginmedia.feedback newsgroup. The thread subject is called "VM Webise details".

The newsgroup can only be accessed by VM customers.

The more responses they get, the better the arguments will get across.

This is not to say this thread is not beneficial, it very much is in my opinion, but there are other more direct routes to the management in VM. :)

SMHarman 07-03-2008 15:27

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34502106)
Here's a point. They say they reject numbers over 3 digits. That is a hell of a lot of cvs security numbers they will have from the back of credit cards. :shocked:

Well two things here. 1. If you are sending your CC number on a site with no security cert both they and you deserve what is coming. An SSL cert is cheap.
2. Why store any numbers? What can a 3 digit number tell about your browsing habits unless they are looking for 420 to market drugs to you? About the only 3 digit number I can think of with marketing possibilities.

smeagoly1 07-03-2008 15:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
If VM go ahead against the flow of opinion then they can be shown my middle finger :)

mertle 07-03-2008 15:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
what I cant understand is why VM is out to self destruct its business.

Its clear many will leave. They just had good figures and some idiot in an office decide to screw its customers great management there.

Think also if they go ahead why he heck cant opt out be done with the mac address rather than some stupid Cookie idea.

Surely its upto VM to properly openly use a system which completely blocks those who wish NOT to HAVE PHORM.

Why the heck has PHORM got stealth adverts system if its not an abuse system. I think its so we dont know we still being monitored even though we opted out. There is no logic to silent adverts other than to deceive.

If there was no hidden adverts and all signed up and it was blocked by mac address I would sleep easier when using my credit card.

This current system and its opt out is dodgy as hell. I even got a conspiracy that the government wont do jack all.

They want us to stop using credit cards and they dont like us using places like play.com.

So if there is a fear factor that online purchase are going to be more unsafe we will stop buying online.

Finally I am starting to feel this country is now being run by the KGB. With this and this ID card all the cameras etc has the KGB took over parliment.

Toto 07-03-2008 16:24

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34502295)
what I cant understand is why VM is out to self destruct its business.

Me neither.

Quote:

Its clear many will leave. They just had good figures and some idiot in an office decide to screw its customers great management there.
A risk they will have to quantify. E.g. Subscriber chrun over advertising revenue.

Quote:

Think also if they go ahead why he heck cant opt out be done with the mac address rather than some stupid Cookie idea.
An interesting idea, wonder what additonal HTTP overhead this would cause, that an additional network technology.

Quote:

Surely its upto VM to properly openly use a system which completely blocks those who wish NOT to HAVE PHORM.
Yes absolutely

Quote:

This current system and its opt out is dodgy as hell. I even got a conspiracy that the government wont do jack all.
Dodgy certainly, and some conspiracy theories should come wrapped in tin foil. :)

Quote:

They want us to stop using credit cards and they dont like us using places like play.com.
oooo kaaayyyyy

Quote:

So if there is a fear factor that online purchase are going to be more unsafe we will stop buying online.
We?, speak for yourself. :)

Quote:

Finally I am starting to feel this country is now being run by the KGB. With this and this ID card all the cameras etc has the KGB took over parliment.
. That's comrade Toto to you brother. :)

PhormUKPRteam 07-03-2008 16:26

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hi all
I work on behalf of Phorm here in the UK. Many of you may already have seen it but of not there is a transcript of last nights live interview with Phorm's CEO at http://www.webwise.com/chat as well as a Q&A session at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rgess_ertegrul
Rgds
PhormUktechteam

mertle 07-03-2008 16:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502306)
Hi all
I work on behalf of Phorm here in the UK. Many of you may already have seen it but of not there is a transcript of last nights live interview with Phorm's CEO at http://www.webwise.com/chat as well as a Q&A session at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rgess_ertegrul
Rgds
PhormUktechteam

if this is a geniune employer and not some joker.

You can stick your PHORM where the sun dont shine.

You must be desperate for a job to work for bunch of crooks.:erm:

Toto

Hi comrade;)

dav 07-03-2008 16:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Looks as if the Beeb got around to getting some answers too...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm

SMHarman 07-03-2008 16:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502306)
Hi all
I work on behalf of Phorm here in the UK. Many of you may already have seen it but of not there is a transcript of last nights live interview with Phorm's CEO at http://www.webwise.com/chat as well as a Q&A session at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rgess_ertegrul
Rgds
PhormUktechteam

So who is this then?
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/members/42837.html

PhormUKPRteam 07-03-2008 17:13

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
There are two of us working through all of the forums and threads - sometimes a little cross over occurs.

mertle 07-03-2008 17:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SMHarman (Post 34502318)

who knows have we got a new pest a PHORM lurker.

Be honest we have absolute no guarantees that PHORM wont put maliscious hidden code into its advertisements.

When you hear news and stories Memory trick breaks PC encryption.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7275407.stm

the last thing you need is company like PHORM allowed legally to infest your machine.

Even if PHORM has become all angelic, Hackers could use their system to help hack.

Shaun 07-03-2008 17:19

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502346)
There are two of us working through all of the forums and threads - sometimes a little cross over occurs.

When you say on behalf - do you really mean from an external company employed to be here?

Mick 07-03-2008 17:24

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34502310)
if this is a geniune employer and not some joker.

You can stick your PHORM where the sun dont shine.

You must be desperate for a job to work for bunch of crooks.:erm:

Toto

Hi comrade;)

Whether you or I agree with this system is one thing but I will not tolerate rude posts like this.

I have asked for sensible and amicable posts when conducting questions or replies in this thread - any more posts like this will be deleted.

mertle 07-03-2008 17:26

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 34502356)
When you say on behalf - do you really mean from an external company employed to be here?

likely as SKY & Microsoft use this practice to spread rubbish/fear. Just example first to gain users trust and then say virgin overcharged me and wont accept its there fault or my ps3 just collapsed and SONY wont repair it. Just a couple o f things which can happen.

Im on a ps3 forum it happens there its should be made illegal. There is people on forums employed to basically stir it up.

All part of viral marketing.

SMHarman 07-03-2008 17:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?10
Quote:

Dephormation.org.uk: If I use a web mail or forum application, like HotMail, Slashdot, Yahoo Groups, or Virgin Webmail, will Phorm be able to see/use the contents of the emails/messages I read?

MBurgess: No, we don't analyse the content of webmail sites.
How - through a whitelist again?

PhormUKPRteam 07-03-2008 17:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Thanks Mick
To be clear, yes I work for an external agency for Phorm - a UK PR agency. My job is solely to take the information Phorm is making available - the interviews, the Q&As etc and place them into these discussions. I believe I am totally open about this - my log in name is pretty clear, and the first line of my introduction clearly states who I work for. It is my job to simply present the facts about Phorm.

none 07-03-2008 17:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dav (Post 34502315)
Looks as if the Beeb got around to getting some answers too...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm

Yeah the Phorm PR boys are doing the rounds on most of the tech sites. Most of the replies they give contain generic answers that have been cut n paste from other replies given elsewhere. A simple damage limitation exercise imo.


Now, lets just recap,
A member of the Phorm tech team came on this board yesterday and categorically stated that “If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.”
Clear indeed, although deliberately misleading. Why? Well because although no data is processed, it does still pass through Phorm (as I suspected all along).

Consider this quote here from their CEO Kent Ertegrul - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rul/page3.html
Quote:

Published Friday 7th March 2008 10:45 GMT

So if I'm opted out, data passes straight between me and the website I'm visiting? It doesn't enter Phorm's systems at all?

MB: What happens is that the data is still mirrored to the profiler but the data digest is never made and the rest of the chain never occurs. It ought to be said that the profiler is operated by the ISP, not us.
So there you have it, data is still mirrored onto a profiler, opting out is irrelevant as to whether data passes though the Phorm system, as clearly it does, no matter what. There is no real opt out other than switching to a Phorm-Free ISP.


In that same interview Kent Ertegrul keeps banging on about how bad google is, but see thing is, I can choose not to use google if I so want. With Phorm there is no REAL choice. Data still passes through the Phorm system.

I’m more angry now after reading that interview than I was before.

mertle 07-03-2008 18:15

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502409)
Thanks Mick
To be clear, yes I work for an external agency for Phorm - a UK PR agency. My job is solely to take the information Phorm is making available - the interviews, the Q&As etc and place them into these discussions. I believe I am totally open about this - my log in name is pretty clear, and the first line of my introduction clearly states who I work for. It is my job to simply present the facts about Phorm.

So why is PHORM NOT alleviating concerns. Even your CEO like a dodgy politician in those Q&A's.

There is many good questions on here and even those by the media NOT been clearly answered. So why are you here if our questions are not been answered.

Its clear there is something extremely dodgy why we going to have hidden adverts you cant see. Why is this even there.

why is the system opt out rather than opt in. Why should we have to eben touch webwise (which I feel is rouse) to just pick up a cookie.

Why is it at all a flimsy cookie based system to OPT out a system which can be easily deleted by hidden code by PHORM.

Like I said there far better system to make sure PHORM is truelly opt out ONE use people mac address held by ISP which all there data will be witheld to be passed to PHORM.

Another a program installed on our machine which PHORM would be told to look to see if its active. This being provided by ISP to block PHORM if installed.

What guarantees are there about malicious piggy back coding either from PHORM or hackers.

Ultimately can we guarantee our banking and online purchasing is safe from PHORM.

gaz1 07-03-2008 18:18

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502419)
Yeah the Phorm PR boys are doing the rounds on most of the tech sites. Most of the replies they give contain generic answers that have been cut n paste from other replies given elsewhere. A simple damage limitation exercise imo.


Now, lets just recap,
A member of the Phorm tech team came on this board yesterday and categorically stated that “If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.”
Clear indeed, although deliberately misleading. Why? Well because although no data is processed, it does still pass through Phorm (as I suspected all along).

Consider this quote here from their CEO Kent Ertegrul - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rul/page3.html


So there you have it, data is still mirrored onto a profiler, opting out is irrelevant as to whether data passes though the Phorm system, as clearly it does, no matter what. There is no real opt out other than switching to a Phorm-Free ISP.


In that same interview Kent Ertegrul keeps banging on about how bad google is, but see thing is, I can choose not to use google if I so want. With Phorm there is no REAL choice. Data still passes through the Phorm system.

I’m more angry now after reading that interview than I was before.

this is how i see it and what i want is no connection in wires to the phorm reader as i read it to be done

? for phorm why wont you supply a drawing diagram of how you connect to the suppliers isp connection

p.s virgin cable supervisors do know of this forum and have been reading it today and yesterday as i forwarded this address to em probably like countless others
theres 2 ways i can go from here either end contract with virgin media once phorm is started up or walk into a court room and under data protection act force virgin media to disconnect phorm from any connection of mine

Florence 07-03-2008 18:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502409)
Thanks Mick
To be clear, yes I work for an external agency for Phorm - a UK PR agency. My job is solely to take the information Phorm is making available - the interviews, the Q&As etc and place them into these discussions. I believe I am totally open about this - my log in name is pretty clear, and the first line of my introduction clearly states who I work for. It is my job to simply present the facts about Phorm.

I found a connection on another forum he works for this company http://www.citigatedr.co.uk/home-en.html

Shaun 07-03-2008 18:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502409)
It is my job to simply present the facts about Phorm.

If you're here to present the facts - then why is the information provided by techteam different to that presented by the CEO?

What is EXACTLY the relationship between Privacy International and Phorm.

Do they have anything at all to say about your product as stated by the CEO of Phorm?

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34502219-post702.html

Quote:

Originally Posted by techteam
and to be doubly doubly clear: Simon Davies as a privacy consultant conducted the PIA wearing his 80/20 hat and with his fellow colleague at the LSE.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CEO
KentErtugrul: I believe that given the chance to fully understand our technology, Professor Anderson will reach the same conclusion as Privacy International, Ernst and Young and any number of key privacy stakeholders,


popper 07-03-2008 18:50

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502409)
Thanks Mick
To be clear, yes I work for an external agency for Phorm - a UK PR agency. My job is solely to take the information Phorm is making available - the interviews, the Q&As etc and place them into these discussions. I believe I am totally open about this - my log in name is pretty clear, and the first line of my introduction clearly states who I work for. It is my job to simply present the facts about Phorm.

while its refreshing to see the truth from your good PR self as regards your workplace, dont you think it would have been better to pick better screens names, as your not infact UKtechteam but rather UKPRteam.

as the Phorm 3rd party UKPRteam, how do you propose to correctly answer the real Tech questions that are in many places and asked by even more people....?

is there also a UKlegalTeam to answer the RIPA/DPA/copyright and several other UK and EU legal questions.

or are the millions of UK ISP users effected by the ISP/Phorm contract going to be left with no other 'in good faith' option but to start small claims court proceedings (as was done with the UK banks due to no other 'in good faith' options being put forward by the offending banking partys) against the ISPs and Phorm etc.

perhaps to get the answers and rulings to restate the acts in question, and return some balance to the one sided contracts, and once again remove 3rd partys from interfering with the UK consumers?

PhormUKPRteam 07-03-2008 18:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
80/20 Thinking is a consulting business founded and run by Managing Director Simon Davies, who is also a director of Privacy International, one of the leading privacy advocacy bodies. Phorm has retained 80/20 Thinking to conduct a Privacy Impact Assessment on its technologies, systems and policies and we will work with them on an ongoing basis throughout the year.

mertle 07-03-2008 18:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502419)
Yeah the Phorm PR boys are doing the rounds on most of the tech sites. Most of the replies they give contain generic answers that have been cut n paste from other replies given elsewhere. A simple damage limitation exercise imo.


Now, lets just recap,
A member of the Phorm tech team came on this board yesterday and categorically stated that “If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.”
Clear indeed, although deliberately misleading. Why? Well because although no data is processed, it does still pass through Phorm (as I suspected all along).

Consider this quote here from their CEO Kent Ertegrul - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rul/page3.html


So there you have it, data is still mirrored onto a profiler, opting out is irrelevant as to whether data passes though the Phorm system, as clearly it does, no matter what. There is no real opt out other than switching to a Phorm-Free ISP.


In that same interview Kent Ertegrul keeps banging on about how bad google is, but see thing is, I can choose not to use google if I so want. With Phorm there is no REAL choice. Data still passes through the Phorm system.

I’m more angry now after reading that interview than I was before.

this was quote from someone on a rival forum on this interview.

Quote:

So, the long term goal of Phorm is Net Neutrality. It is well know that some would like to see the internet controlled somehow, companies such as Phorm using their technology can take this process forward.
Websites and users not opted-in to Phorm will have their connection throttled by the ISP, those that opt-in will not, in the end, only those websites that opt-in will manage to survive, of course you will have to adhere to their polices, which could mean no criticism of Governments/Companies ect.. which have signed up to Phorm.
I have said myself there is an hidden interior agenda we know the government hitting hard on certain internet activities. You really can see where this could easily go to what this poster says.

While in certain cases its a very good idea to police activity its the worry where it will all end. Ultimately it treats everyone as guilty and treads on or civil liberties.

nj2112 07-03-2008 18:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popper (Post 34502456)
while its refreshing to see the truth from your good PR self as regards your workplace, dont you think it would have been better to pick better screens names, as your not infact UKtechteam but rather UKPRteam.

Yes, perhaps one of the mods could make this change for them.

paul nolan 07-03-2008 19:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I was starting to think TechTeam was a PR agency.

It smacks of a couple of years ago where (allegedly) the then chairman of Southampton FC had a PR agency attempt to Influence the flow of information in an upcoming battle for company ownership on the most popular forum for Southampton FC fans.

but frankly TechTeam and PhormUKTechTeam, as far as we know has no detailed knowledge of the workings of ISP's data capture Phorms patents, and the like.

Maybe they're just passing on uniformed propaganda meant to mislead us and stall on complaining to the ISP's involved.

mertle 07-03-2008 19:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502458)
80/20 Thinking is a consulting business founded and run by Managing Director Simon Davies, who is also a director of Privacy International, one of the leading privacy advocacy bodies. Phorm has retained 80/20 Thinking to conduct a Privacy Impact Assessment on its technologies, systems and policies and we will work with them on an ongoing basis throughout the year.

So your company and privacy international have vested interest to be economical with the truth. Seems to me Simon Davies sold his soul for £££.

Again Why have you not answered our queries.

If that is why your here.

popper, none, florence, myself plus many more etc have put some very good questions. Which you eloquently seem to be ignoring just try and justify your existence.

Yet you still have not given us your answer. Though I suspect it will be typical PR spin and NOT the truth.

What is so hard to be absolutely transparant of the operation and its effect and implications to us. What is VM set to gain from PHORM and what has PHORM got to hide.

---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul nolan (Post 34502463)
I was starting to think TechTeam was a PR agency.

It smacks of a couple of years ago where (allegedly) the then chairman of Southampton FC had a PR agency attempt to Influence the flow of information in an upcoming battle for company ownership on the most popular forum for Southampton FC fans.

but frankly TechTeam and PhormUKTechTeam, as far as we know have no detailed knowledge of the workings of ISP's data capture Phorms patents, and the like.

Maybe they're just passing on uniformed propaganda meant to mislead us and stall on complaining to the ISP's involved.

thats true but sadly it still goes on console/HD war had them. SKY/VM has them activelty TROLLING.

Its hard to even say they are PR people more just a normal bloke paid to troll various forums.

Next we will be hearing fby them all ISP's will do it.

RizzyKing 07-03-2008 19:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Ok i said i was not going to comment on this but reading that we now have a PR person for phorm on here i couldn't resist. Do you understand that the vast majority of us have zero trust in phorm and any of it's promises or reassurances and who exactly thought it was a good idea to have PR company employee's trying to convince the masses given that PR is also not something we the general population overly appreciate??.

If you can tell me and all the others here how we avoid completely totally and utterly anything to do with phorm and our internet i am happy to hear it other then that you will save yourself a a great deal of time by going out and buying a dead horse and a whip (on company exspenses of course). While i understand your just doing a job you have to understand we don't want phorm there is no slant you can put on it WE DON'T WANT IT.

Please relay that information to your client and hopefully they will get the hint. If this does come to be implemented by VM other then cancel all VM services i have i will try and find out what companys employ phorm and will boycott all of their products contacting them to let them know why i am boycotting something else we can all do.

SMHarman 07-03-2008 19:34

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Here is a new question. Being as EY has done a US privacy review and the other Privacy reviews are done to US standards, why is this being marketed to UK ISPs first when grabbing ISPs such as Time Warner Cable or Verizon FiOS or Cablevision or ComCast would get more subscribers.

So why is the initial introduction into the UK marked, not the US one where most internet innovation usually occurs first?

Mick 07-03-2008 19:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34502465)
So your company and privacy international have vested interest to be economical with the truth. Seems to me Simon Davies sold his soul for £££.

Again Why have you not answered our queries.

If that is why your here.

popper, none, florence, myself plus many more etc have put some very good questions. Which you eloquently seem to be ignoring just try and justify your existence.

Yet you still have not given us your answer. Though I suspect it will be typical PR spin and NOT the truth.

What is so hard to be absolutely transparant of the operation and its effect and implications to us. What is VM set to gain from PHORM and what has PHORM got to hide.


thats true but sadly it still goes on console/HD war had them. SKY/VM has them activelty TROLLING.

Its hard to even say they are PR people more just a normal bloke paid to troll various forums.

Next we will be hearing fby them all ISP's will do it.

I have been given some answers to some of them questions but I am not going to post these until people start adhering to my requests and calm down abit.

Noone is going to answer any questions in an hostile environment and quite frankly I don't blame them. :rolleyes:

mertle 07-03-2008 19:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SMHarman (Post 34502472)
Here is a new question. Being as EY has done a US privacy review and the other Privacy reviews are done to US standards, why is this being marketed to UK ISPs first when grabbing ISPs such as Time Warner Cable or Verizon FiOS or Cablevision or ComCast would get more subscribers.

So why is the initial introduction into the UK marked, not the US one where most internet innovation usually occurs first?

somehow I dont think we will get our questions answered he's scarpered without even doing his PR.:mad:

So much for helping us;)

RizzyKing WELL SAID.

ultimately thats what I want to know. WHY CANT PHORM and there PR(TROLLING) MAKE it clear easy permanent 1 off opt OUT (better make it opt in only).

WHy is it so hard for them to be open and honest.

Like I fear they will implement hidden code to kill our so called opt out cookie. Afterall doubt it would be hard for company of its background to implement a kill program forcing us all into PHORM.

The way I feel about this Its almost like a legalised hacking of your PC.

Mick 07-03-2008 19:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34502478)
somehow I dont think we will get our questions answered he's scarpered without even doing his PR.:mad:



So much for helping us;)

Hello - are you taking in anything I have said? What do you expect when you post rude posts?

Example:

Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle
You can stick your PHORM where the sun dont shine.

You must be desperate for a job to work for bunch of crooks

Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle
I dont think we will get our questions answered he's scarpered without even doing his PR

Also time factor - noone working office hours is going to post answering questions to nasty responses and replies on Friday at 7PM in the evening. I know I bloody wouldn't. :dozey:

popper 07-03-2008 19:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Here is a new question. Being as EY has done a US privacy review and the other Privacy reviews are done to US standards, why is this being marketed to UK ISPs first when grabbing ISPs such as Time Warner Cable or Verizon FiOS or Cablevision or ComCast would get more subscribers.

So why is the initial introduction into the UK marked, not the US one where most internet innovation usually occurs first?
could it be that the US consumers are used to litigation, were as the UK consumers were less likely to involve the courts in the past.

infact its perhaps just bad timing for the likes Phorm and 'the new and improved Virgin Media brand' greed, due mainly to the UK banks and their greed forcing the UK populas to finally react to the unlawful charges.

the UK ISPs are perhaps in for a massive shock, if the millions of end users do start sending in the DPA 'removal of processing and export right'notices and start another simple online small claim, this time aimed squarely at the ISPs and Phorm ,instead of the banks.

after all the ISPs dont have anywere near the same cash reserves and End users have several problems with the ISPs already (unlimited,throttling,unfair non DD charges etc),so they might just bring it all up in one go now this Phorm has brought the fight to the consumers, who knows!

none 07-03-2008 20:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34502478)
The way I feel about this Its almost like a legalised hacking of your PC.

Yup, except its worse as its at the ISP level, and their a little harder to format c:/ in order to wipe clean.

RizzyKing 07-03-2008 20:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Mick i appreciate what your trying to do and am sorry if i am hindering it. People are bound to start going from concern to anger on this issue as so far many of the answers have been well being polite not very adequate and amount to little more then half truth's. Getting blood from a stone would be easier at times or at least thats how it feels no solid answers and nothing from VM.

Thats another bone of contention for me VM what the hell are they doing is this the way cusotmers of VM can expect to be treated in future and if we are successful and stop this deal we will probably be down the same road again with a new company or an old one renamed and a slightly beeter approach.

As much as some real answers from phorm would be nice i would much prefer to have someone on behalf of VM here to answer questions and to put our side across to i have tried phoning them and got nothing but "i am not sure what your referring too" or "there really isn't anything to worry about it is being done for your benefit" both of whch just make my temper on this issue worse.

Here's a thought maybe the same 5% that are ok with this are the same 5% that hog all the bandwidth.

Mick 07-03-2008 20:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34502485)
Mick i appreciate what your trying to do and am sorry if i am hindering it. People are bound to start going from concern to anger on this issue

I understand about the anger part - I am not impressed with the system either but at the same time I cannot sit back and watch people come on here - and post aggressive posts and demand answers. Everyone is entitled to have their say but I cannot stand to see rude or aggressive posting(s).

Those who work in call centres will know that if any customer gets aggressive when they are trying to give them information or help - the rep can terminate the call and they are much within their rights to do that - The same goes for the reps trying to give information on these boards - We might not like what they are saying but getting angry and getting all hot and bothered will solve nothing - I am actually getting sick of repeating myself on this one, shouting the odds doesn't get us what we want.

none 07-03-2008 20:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Looks like the BT boys are getting a few answers - http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=60&tstart=0

This post caught my interest
Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam Liversage
IS WEBWISE BROWSER DEPENDENT?
• I sometimes use Safari as well as Firefox. Can the www.oix.net cookie be blocked in Safari?

• Is the communication and invitation dependant on using the BT/Yahoo! browser?
BT Webwise works with most major browsers, including Internet Explorer, Firefox, Netscape and Opera. Safari is not supported by the BT Webwise system and so Safari browsing will not pass through it.
Adam

mmmm so what browser doesn't play nice with phorm and where can i get it :P

Traduk 07-03-2008 20:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Mick is right and albeit this a highly emotive issue our desires will be best served by concentrating on the weaknesses in response and action by Phorm, it's CEO and agents acting on Phorm's behalf.

IMO having seen both the video interview and the transcript of the one on the Register, the CEO is pushing elements of responsibility towards the other side of the Chinese Wall which of course is the ISP's. There are a limited number of times either the CEO or his agents can keep repeating the same party line. There are two sides to this equation and if Phorm exhaust their ability to quell customer anger, the ISP management must respond.

Phorm are such an easy target given their history in a former guise that it would prove an enlightenment to see the logic of the ISP decision makers who allowed even the thought of this liaison to last more than milliseconds. The pressure must be kept on and progressively increased until the clamour for answers, hopefully from the press, forces ISP directors out of their bunkers and into a mode of open discussion. We can then decide whether as customers we wish to continue to subscribe and share-holders can decide whether the board of directors needs changes.

Phorm would not be of any concern to any of us if it wasn't because of ISP management decisions. I suspect that Phorm are hopelessly losing the battle for hearts and minds so I guess that the various ISP's management teams had better do something before the damage gets seriously out of control. I believe that once this course of action becomes common knowledge amongst all UK internet users, it has the potential to destroy ISP's.

Florence 07-03-2008 20:32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34502488)
I understand about the anger part - I am not impressed with the system either but at the same time I cannot sit back and watch people come on here - and post aggressive posts and demand answers. Everyone is entitled to have their say but I cannot stand to see rude or aggressive posting(s).

Those who work in call centres will know that if any customer gets aggressive when they are trying to give them information or help - the rep can terminate the call and they are much within their rights to do that - The same goes for the reps trying to give information on these boards - We might not like what they are saying but getting angry and getting all hot and bothered will solve nothing - I am actually getting sick of repeating myself on this one, shouting the odds doesn't get us what we want.

Thank you Mick I am sure they all understand this and the longer VM stay quiet on these boards while the Phorm techies come to post without answering all questions this will not improve the feeling customers have for VM now.

Phorm can only give so much some questions are more related to VM like why not an OPT-IN instead of OPT-OUT?

What does VM get out of selling us to Phorm?

Have VM worked out just how much revenue they could lose if customers decide to move to other ISPs rather than be forced onto this Phorm program?

With present day methods of scripting just how sure are VM that this system isn't hackable now or in the future?

Could this Phorm ever be caught out with the many online WORMS which can happen with almost any server thus allowing access to information?

Sometimes addresses are passed over MSN and other medias or web emails this Phorm will gather this information and could pick up an address or two?

Finally as I have decided I do not want to be apart of this Phorm and have already told VM over phone and by the VM webwise feedback in the news, I wil next be contacting DPA to see where I stand with regards to my Data not being allowed to be farmed, part farmed or even allowed onto any server that is connected with Phorm.

none 07-03-2008 20:41

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have no sympathy for any ISP that would destroy itself though a partnership with a company like Phorm. It’s an inherently bad idea to implement such a system and everyone that HAS’NT got a vested interest in it can see that.

Part of the reason why so many are getting angered with the responses they have received so far is because phorm play games with semantics to hide the reality. Still, I suppose it’s to be expected with their dubious chequered past as adware peddlers.

popper 07-03-2008 20:41

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
as a change of pace
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...&rssfeed=rss01
Virgin Media names new chief exec

"Neil Berkett was the driving force behind the integration of Telewest Global, Inc. into NTL Inc.; which adopted the name Virgin after buying Richard Branson’s mobile-phone company.
...
"
well done Neil for getting the comfy chair full time, shame your also likely going to be remembered for allowing/aiding and abetting the growing Phorm scandal etc...

Cobbydaler 07-03-2008 20:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Apologies if posted before, but there's a statement by ICO here...

RizzyKing 07-03-2008 21:01

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Another point that won't or can't be answered is can this be used for total net monitoring as i find it funny that phorm has ignored the US market where it seemed to be heading and has come to the UK after our government has made it clear it wants all net traffic monitored. Is that part of the extended functionality that phorm can offer the government in the future if it is already being in place in the UK. Until that last part is answered i will not expect a lot of help from the government or it's agency's on this issue. While a new direction on the topic it is something i would like answered as i believe it is what phorm will do in future that is the deciding factor in them coming to the UK at a time when the UK seems to be getting harder on internet user's and useage this is not a good place to be at the minute.

Florence 07-03-2008 21:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502497)
Looks like the BT boys are getting a few answers - http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=60&tstart=0

This post caught my interest

mmmm so what browser doesn't play nice with phorm and where can i get it :P

With Opera you can block all adverts on pages, refuse to acept cookies from websites, place websites into a blocked website list. You can even do site prefrences for each individual site weather to accept a cookie even set it to delete all new cookies when you close opera.

With all that is already about do we really need the spy in the camp.

Shaun 07-03-2008 21:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by PhormUKtechteam (Post 34502458)
80/20 Thinking is a consulting business founded and run by Managing Director Simon Davies, who is also a director of Privacy International, one of the leading privacy advocacy bodies. Phorm has retained 80/20 Thinking to conduct a Privacy Impact Assessment on its technologies, systems and policies and we will work with them on an ongoing basis throughout the year.

Right for me that's this PR show over - You've not stated why what you say is different to what the CEO states. You even come back with a copy and paste of the original answer from an article on the BBC website. You must be off your rocker if you think the people that are posting on this thread won't notice when you just cut out a paragraph from a news article and slap it up here as a well thought you and researched answer.

Even if we can't remember where we originally saw the quote we can use a search engine the spidering :google: does has got much quicker you know.

This isn't PR this is a blunt attempt to grind down those that ask questions and shut people up.

I've been fairly open minded about this product but for me if you can't get your facts straight now what hope have when you have this system up and running.

Woodgar 07-03-2008 21:25

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502497)
Looks like the BT boys are getting a few answers - http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=60&tstart=0

This post caught my interest

mmmm so what browser doesn't play nice with phorm and where can i get it :P

The same thought occured to me as I read through the replies on the bbc site

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm

"Q: And does the service ever modify information you receive via http that might not be a web-page, i.e. is it possible for it to accidentally break applications that rely on http for communication, especially if those applications work in a way that Phorm didn't anticipate?

A.We operate a whitelist of user-agents corresponding to major browsers (e.g. Firefox, IE, Opera). Other user-agents are ignored."

So, if I were to use something like Privoxy to alter the user-agent string in my http-headers to something obscure or even none-existent, would that stop Phorm from tracking me? Granted this may cause problems on some websites, but I can easily switch this on/off as required.

Still, the onus is yet again on the end user to find a way around the system, which is not how it should be.

On a similar note, also taken from the bbc article,

"Q: If two people use a shared computer - how will Phorm ensure that a surprise, e.g. a partner researching wedding venues, is not ruined when the other partner next uses the computer and is bombarded with adverts for dresses and rings?

A: Most people have a separate login if they are sharing a computer and they will therefore have a separate random number. But also, advertisers using our system can choose to show ads based on the page they are visiting, recently visited, or a longer term basis. Only the last of these would be affected if the computer and the login were share, so this scenario if possible but not that likely. If the person really wants to hide a surprise, they can switch webwise off!"

In other words, it's not Phorm's fault if this happens, but it's either the advertisers fault or *my* fault for not setting up seperate logins!

Ravenheart 07-03-2008 21:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popper (Post 34502505)
as a change of pace
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...&rssfeed=rss01
Virgin Media names new chief exec

"Neil Berkett was the driving force behind the integration of Telewest Global, Inc. into NTL Inc.; which adopted the name Virgin after buying Richard Branson’s mobile-phone company.
...
"
well done Neil for getting the comfy chair full time, shame your also likely going to be remembered for allowing/aiding and abetting the growing Phorm scandal etc...

Nice piece on this at Bloomberg especially where a London based analyst states VM are really struggling, might be even more uphill now with the whole Phorm deal.

Sirius 07-03-2008 21:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Ok they really dont know there arses from there faces :LOL:

Quote:

Q: Even if you do opt out your web traffic will still be intercepted and analysed, you just wont see the ads. Is this true?

A: No this is not true. If you opt out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm. The ISP controls which data is passed to Phorm and its systems check for the presence of an opt-out cookie. Opting out means that you will not see relevant ads from the OIX (Open Internet Exchange - the platform developed by Phorm) and that none of your data is analysed. You will however continue to see untargeted ads, just as you do today.
So even though you opt out Virgin Media will still receive the data stream and will know Exactly what you are doing at any time.

So in my eyes the OPT OUT from this SPYWARE is no such thing. VIRGIN will still be able to track you every move. ?

Anything whats so bloody ever. :upyours: Virgin Bloody Media

Traduk 07-03-2008 21:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have yet to see a computer in friends or family members houses where multiple users of one computer have been set up for seperate user log-ins. Of course some people will have but most wouldn't have a clue where to start.

Unfortunately the "most people" is straight out of the political spin book which is always a convenient assumption but rarely true. This guy must really think we are all mugs but fails to realise that we have had a decade of spin training and can unravel it as fast as it is spoken

Sirius 07-03-2008 21:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Traduk (Post 34502545)
we have had a decade of spin training and can unravel it as fast as it is spoken

Thats so true :)

SMHarman 07-03-2008 22:04

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Traduk (Post 34502545)
I have yet to see a computer in friends or family members houses where multiple users of one computer have been set up for seperate user log-ins. Of course some people will have but most wouldn't have a clue where to start.

Mine is, it means my son has a restricted account and as a 5 year old clicking away cannot install anything accidently etc.
It is also often necessary if you use outlook / outlook express for your mail handling as you need to set up individual profiles for each user of the mail system, though these days with more people using web based email there is less of a reason to do this.

flowrebmit 07-03-2008 22:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenheart (Post 34502534)
Nice piece on this at Bloomberg especially where a London based analyst states VM are really struggling, might be even more uphill now with the whole Phorm deal.

With VM saying that they want to concentrate on their BB business, and with the recent publicity of embarrassing privacy data loses by government departments, where was the common sense in the VM boardroom when they thought hey this Phorm spyware technology sounds like a good idea?

Traduk 07-03-2008 22:39

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
SMHarman,

I was of course aiming to highlight the spin :-) The reality is more usually along the lines that where adults or older children have access they do so on separate computers fed by routers. Saves all the endless fights about usage.

I cannot imagine the hoops that need to be jumped through to make web access child safe and the way my eldest daughter has implemented it is via perpetual postponement of provision of a PC to my grandson (9). My children got to cut their teeth on a Sinclair ZX :-)

flashpaul 07-03-2008 22:49

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I wonder if anyone's employer has a view on Phorm

I do some work from home and I am sure my employer won't want my browsing research
to be monitored in any way

I suspect that a non-phorm ISP policy may be introduced

Shaun 07-03-2008 22:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashpaul (Post 34502583)
I wonder if anyone's employer has a view on Phorm

I do some work from home and I am sure my employer won't want my browsing research
to be monitored in any way

I suspect that a non-phorm ISP policy may be introduced

I suspect your employer should be paying for a business ISP. ;)

SMHarman 07-03-2008 23:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashpaul (Post 34502583)
I wonder if anyone's employer has a view on Phorm

I do some work from home and I am sure my employer won't want my browsing research
to be monitored in any way

I suspect that a non-phorm ISP policy may be introduced

Well as long as you are VPN'ed to your office network and then using their data highway for internet access your ISP cannot monitor the traffic in the encrypted tunnel.

markt50 07-03-2008 23:04

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I think some of the answers being given by the Phorm people are being left deliberately vague, or are often being qualified with something on the end, much like a politician would do. For example, the standard reply when asked about 'If I opt out is it really switched off?' seems to be:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phorm
"When you opt out -- or switch the system off, it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP."

Source: http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

However when the register asked for further details on this it came to light that even when you opt out a mirror of the data is still sent to a 'Profiler':

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Register
So if I'm opted out, data passes straight between me and the website I'm visiting? It doesn't enter Phorm's systems at all?

MB: What happens is that the data is still mirrored to the profiler but the data digest is never made and the rest of the chain never occurs. It ought to be said that the profiler is operated by the ISP, not us.

Source: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rul/page3.html

And now I find the following on the BBC, this is an admittance that the 'Profiler' software is from Phorm:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The BBC
Q: There are inconsistencies appearing. Phorm told The Register that data is still passed to the "Profiler" even if people opt-out, but apparently the "Profiler" is owned by the ISP, which is how they claim no personal data is sent to Phorm, as per the reply to the BBC.

A: This isn't inconsistent. The Profiler is owned by the ISP. If someone opts out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm.

Q: However, I would like to know who provides the software for the "Profiler" and if it's not written by the ISP, how does the ISP check that it does what it's meant to?

A: Phorm provides the software for the profiles, just like Cisco, for example, provides software for an ISP router. The ISP can see exactly what data is being passed in and out of its systems and has complete control over it.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm

So, if I'm understanding this correctly, even if I opt out my data is mirrored and sent to a 'Profiler', this profiler is running Phorms 'Profiles' Software ? In what way is this being 100% switched off ? Also, is anybody else even more concerned that it now seems like the ISP's are allowing Phorms equipment and software to operate within the ISP network ?

Chris 07-03-2008 23:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 34502589)
I suspect your employer should be paying for a business ISP. ;)

I think he meant when using his home ISP to do work from home - as I have done in the past with other jobs. That said, I'm not sure Phorm is planning to sniff out VPN data from what I've read.

While I'm here, I should say my opinion on this whole thing is that all Phorm's assurances about user consent obtained 'via their ISP' isn't worth a hill of beans, because Phorm is well aware that the ISPs are planning to use an opt-in rather than an opt-out system to gain 'consent' from their victim-customers. Phorm is therefore complicit in this, no matter how hard it may wriggle and point the finger at the likes of Virgin and BT.

The ISPs are not going to implement an opt-in system because if they did, next to nobody would bother to opt in, and the whole process would become rather pointless and more to the point, would make them a whole lot less money.

Our best strategy here is to acknowledge the ISPs are not going to alter this policy, unless they are convinced the whole thing is making them so unpopular it's in their interests to totally abandon it.

In the meantime, the more we shout for customers to opt out, the better. It's the only weapon we have, and hopefully it will hit them in the pocket, which let's face it is the only place it really hurts if you inhabit the secluded alternate universe of the Virgin boardroom.

none 07-03-2008 23:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris T (Post 34502592)
While I'm here, I should say my opinion on this whole thing is that all Phorm's assurances about user consent obtained 'via their ISP' isn't worth a hill of beans, because Phorm is well aware that the ISPs are planning to use an opt-in rather than an opt-out system to gain 'consent' from their victim-customers. Phorm is therefore complicit in this, no matter how hard it may wriggle and point the finger at the likes of Virgin and BT.

The ISPs are not going to implement an opt-in system because if they did, next to nobody would bother to opt in, and the whole process would become rather pointless and more to the point, would make them a whole lot less money.

Our best strategy here is to acknowledge the ISPs are not going to alter this policy, unless they are convinced the whole thing is making them so unpopular it's in their interests to totally abandon it.

In the meantime, the more we shout for customers to opt out, the better. It's the only weapon we have, and hopefully it will hit them in the pocket, which let's face it is the only place it really hurts if you inhabit the secluded alternate universe of the Virgin boardroom.

:clap: totally agree with that. Its so spot on its making my eyes water :)

Just remember people, be prepared to vote with your wallets when it comes to crunch time.

No retreat No surrender.

flowrebmit 07-03-2008 23:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by markt50 (Post 34502591)
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, even if I opt out my data is mirrored and sent to a 'Profiler', this profiler is running Phorms 'Profiles' Software ? In what way is this being 100% switched off ? Also, is anybody else even more concerned that it now seems like the ISP's are allowing Phorms equipment and software to operate within the ISP network ?

From a technical pov, I thought it was the most likely scenario (otherwise why would have needed the cooperation of the ISPs), so yes I was worried from when this news first broke, and I am sure lots of people with far greater network knowledge and experience can see the massive risks in letting an unproven company with a poor track record of spyware connect equipment into the heart of a network.

By the way, part of the reason that I could never trust Phorm's CEO is that he claims that there was nothing wrong with his spyware, he said he was just misunderstood and it was only adware! Software that installs without a users consent and knowledge, and then hides itself from virus scanning isn't the act of innocent software.

---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502594)
:clap: totally agree with that. Its so spot on its making my eyes water :)

Just remember people, be prepared to vote with your wallets when it comes to crunch time.

No retreat No surrender.

What if you live in an area far from a BT exchange and no LLU option? Dropping from 20Mb to whatever an ADSL can supply is tough...

bringerofnoise 07-03-2008 23:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
ChrisT's post is well written and speaks volumes

The missus is already looking at sky TV for price and if this goes ahead....i did'nt ever think i would say this but BE here i come, always been an advocate of NTL selling many people VM internet 'n i don't even work for em.

My question:will VM listen to customers or rely upon the non realizing customers to chase £.

none 08-03-2008 00:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Fresh off the press

I’ve knocked up a couple more anti-phorm sigs for those that may want a little more variety,

av
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Code:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1433/antiphormavqy6.jpg

sig
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Code:

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4917/stopphormsigv2wv9.jpg
and

sig
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Code:

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8130/phightphormsigv2rn8.jpg

Feel free to share them with as many folk as possible.

ynwa 08-03-2008 01:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have been annoyed with a lot of things NTL / Virgin have done over the years, with capping and so on. But this i wont have. I WILL be looking for another ISP. I already have a BT phone line in the house so it really will be no problem for me to move else where

---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:04 ----------

Bethere will be upgrading my exchange in June. A lot cheaper too, could be going with them :)

Shin Gouki 08-03-2008 01:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Virgin won't lose many customer's at all over this but they'll lose me.

I don't even have a BT phone line but i'm willing to pay for one now.

This is the last straw for me.

I just hpoe that this does'nt become the norm with ISP's in the future.

This whole situation is total and utter BS and i have no faith in those 3 ISP's or our government.

You just know this carbage is going down. :-(

Too much money for it not to and too many subscriber's who just don't know the score.

Tezcatlipoca 08-03-2008 01:49

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin Gouki (Post 34502651)

Too much money for it not too and to many subscriber's who just don't know the score.



That, I think, is the thing...


They & other ISPs will potentially be getting £££££ £Â£Â£Â£Â£ from this... will they really give a monkey's about what we think if they stand to make so much money from this?

And although there's a hell of a lot of anti-Phorm feeling here & on other forums, & some not exactly flattering press on some websites, I'd bet that the majority of customers simply will not know or care about it... they'll fall for the spin about targeted ads being beneficial, & they'll fall for the anti-phishing rubbish (not the main "benefit", & surely not really necessary for anyone with IE7 or Firefox etc.).

Sirius 08-03-2008 08:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt D (Post 34502658)
That, I think, is the thing...


They & other ISPs will potentially be getting £££££ £Â£Â£Â£Â£ from this... will they really give a monkey's about what we think if they stand to make so much money from this?

And although there's a hell of a lot of anti-Phorm feeling here & on other forums, & some not exactly flattering press on some websites, I'd bet that the majority of customers simply will not know or care about it... they'll fall for the spin about targeted ads being beneficial, & they'll fall for the anti-phishing rubbish (not the main "benefit", & surely not really necessary for anyone with IE7 or FireFox etc.).

Remember also that Virgin Media have a habit that they picked up from Nthell, And that is they will announce something months and months before its ready. So in my opinion they will release the info now, let the complaints die down, Then change the AUP so they can sell your first and second born to the devil. This will also allow them to gauge via BT's roll out just how much of first and second born they can sell at one time.?

nj2112 08-03-2008 09:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I wonder what this site http://www.webwise.ie/ thinks of Phorm using webwise as the name of part of their operation. Well when I say site, I think that means the Irish government and possibly the EU.

dav 08-03-2008 09:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobbydaler (Post 34502507)
Apologies if posted before, but there's a statement by ICO here...

I may be a bit behind with this, but the ICO statement seems to contradict what Kent Ertugrul(sp?) was saying in various recent statements. He said that they had already cleared this technology with all the relevant bodies. Did this also include the ICO? I can't remember.

If it did, then either he, or ICO isn't telling the truth because the ICO have only just requested the info...

---------- Post added at 08:18 ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bringerofnoise (Post 34502602)
ChrisT's post is well written and speaks volumes

The missus is already looking at sky TV for price and if this goes ahead....i did'nt ever think i would say this but BE here i come, always been an advocate of NTL selling many people VM internet 'n i don't even work for em.My question:will VM listen to customers or rely upon the non realizing customers to chase £.

Same here. I hate to think about joining the Sky evil empire, but I'd rather get in bed with Murdoch than Phorm:shocked:
That's how strongly I feel

---------- Post added at 08:37 ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 ----------

Looks as if TalkTalk are getting their act together and actually listening...

http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forum...&postcount=117

Sirius 08-03-2008 09:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dav (Post 34502687)

Looks as if TalkTalk are getting their act together and actually listening...

http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forum...&postcount=117



Well done Talk Talk :clap::clap: for having the balls to listen to your customers

Quote:

By making the service Opt In, we feel the onus remains firmly with Phorm to make the service useful and compelling enough that subscribers will choose to join it. If it fails to do this, it will itself fail.

We are committed to running a trial with Phorm, but with two very important conditions.

* Firstly, it will be an Opt In, not an Opt Out service. This means you will have to proactively choose to be a participant of the service.
* Secondly, those who have not chosen to participate will not ever come into contact with any Phorm equipment hosted within Talktalk. Details of who has membership of Phorm will be maintained in our network, and only those who have chosen to participate will be passed to Phorm.
Off course VM will not say anything because they don't have the brain cells to work out that the quote above is what we want to hear. They will blindly carry on committing self destruction over this and forcing everyone into a OPT OUT situation by the stupid cookie system or the preferred for me option of total disconnection of all Virgin Media Services

none 08-03-2008 10:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
In a previous post I noted that the reason Phorm (or rather their representatives) have come onto this board and others was purely out of self-interest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by none
Dont be so quick to give credit.

They come here because its in their own selfish interest to do so, nothing more.


Need proof, see here - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...wtopic.php?408
Quote:

Originally Posted by bubblehelp
It looks as if this nasty company is starting to take a hit in the share price.

from a high of 3506p at the end of last week, the current price is 2785p

By close on friday the the price dropped by 7.3% in the day

if we can can not win with the ISP's we can always bankrupt the ****. The prices and listings are at

http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...n:PHRM.L&it=le

Sign up and in 48 hours you can post on the message board. Help to kill the company on the stock market spread the word.


You can also keep track of their share price here - http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...RM#PriceChartl


With £16M riding on this, Kent Ertsdfsdfsf certainly has a lot to lose. So you can defiantly expect more PR fluff n spin in the coming weeks/months.

Traduk 08-03-2008 12:04

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
The announcement by Talk Talk needs IMO to be read in the context of purely what is says and what it doesn't say.

They state very clearly that they are committed to the trial from which it can be assumed that a contractual obligation exists which would be financially painful to them should they not proceed.

The statement regarding opt-in must be viewed ONLY with regards to the trial and trialists because that is all the statement truly relates to and has no relevance to what might happen with a general roll-out.

IMO they have hedged their bets very neatly and pushed into the future any decision on whether it's a failure and we will not implement or it's the best thing since sliced bread therefore everyone must have it and it's opt-out.

I suspect that this is a clever ploy to buy time and let the furore settle down and will probably be adopted by the other ISP's. It does open another avenue of approach for Talk Talk users which is that if the Phorm system can be totally by-passed in a trial then by default it must be possible if the profiler is implemented on a permanent basis. If the ISP subsequently chooses that opt-out is the way to go then they become accountable for that choice.

Sirius 08-03-2008 12:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Traduk (Post 34502761)
The announcement by Talk Talk needs IMO to be read in the context of purely what is says and what it doesn't say.

They state very clearly that they are committed to the trial from which it can be assumed that a contractual obligation exists which would be financially painful to them should they not proceed.

The statement regarding opt-in must be viewed ONLY with regards to the trial and trialists because that is all the statement truly relates to and has no relevance to what might happen with a general roll-out.

IMO they have hedged their bets very neatly and pushed into the future any decision on whether it's a failure and we will not implement or it's the best thing since sliced bread therefore everyone must have it and it's opt-out.

I suspect that this is a clever ploy to buy time and let the furore settle down and will probably be adopted by the other ISP's. It does open another avenue of approach for Talk Talk users which is that if the Phorm system can be totally by-passed in a trial then by default it must be possible if the profiler is implemented on a permanent basis. If the ISP subsequently chooses that opt-out is the way to go then they become accountable for that choice.

There has been a lot more said in Talk Talks statement then the Virgin Media one.

If they can completely remove you from the profiler then i cannot see why VM will not be able to do the same.

Toto 08-03-2008 12:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34502538)
Ok they really dont know there arses from there faces :LOL:



So even though you opt out Virgin Media will still receive the data stream and will know Exactly what you are doing at any time.

So in my eyes the OPT OUT from this SPYWARE is no such thing. VIRGIN will still be able to track you every move. ?

Anything whats so bloody ever. :upyours: Virgin Bloody Media

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34502699)
Well done Talk Talk :clap::clap: for having the balls to listen to your customers



Off course VM will not say anything because they don't have the brain cells to work out that the quote above is what we want to hear. They will blindly carry on committing self destruction over this and forcing everyone into a OPT OUT situation by the stupid cookie system or the preferred for me option of total disconnection of all Virgin Media Services

Good news Sirius, but help me out here. In your top quote, when you still hated the fact that according to the opinions of some, and none from VM, they would still collect your browsing data, even after you opted out.....how is that different from Talk Talk?

Keep in mind also that both BT and Talk Talk have commited to trials which means installation of their equipment inside their network edge, that is why their logo's are on the Webise page, VM have not, they are only looking at the proposal.

Or were you just agreeing that Talk Talk made it an opt-in service?

Couple of questions then.

Would you go to Talk Talk now that they have made this opted in?

Would you stay with VM if they also went opt in only?

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Traduk (Post 34502761)
The announcement by Talk Talk needs IMO to be read in the context of purely what is says and what it doesn't say.

They state very clearly that they are committed to the trial from which it can be assumed that a contractual obligation exists which would be financially painful to them should they not proceed.

The statement regarding opt-in must be viewed ONLY with regards to the trial and trialists because that is all the statement truly relates to and has no relevance to what might happen with a general roll-out.

IMO they have hedged their bets very neatly and pushed into the future any decision on whether it's a failure and we will not implement or it's the best thing since sliced bread therefore everyone must have it and it's opt-out.

I suspect that this is a clever ploy to buy time and let the furore settle down and will probably be adopted by the other ISP's. It does open another avenue of approach for Talk Talk users which is that if the Phorm system can be totally by-passed in a trial then by default it must be possible if the profiler is implemented on a permanent basis. If the ISP subsequently chooses that opt-out is the way to go then they become accountable for that choice.

:clap:

And you can bet there are a raft of other ISP's waiting to add this to their system. Reminds me of Sky going to google mail for its customers.....and the mess they made of that. ;)

none 08-03-2008 13:46

Dont want to be phormed? Look here
 
Just noticed that there a nice Firefox Plugin to help mess with phorms system. Its called dephormation.

Note however, dephormation is not a solution. Its mearly a fig leaf for your privacy.

original forum link - http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...d.php?t=758923
Quote:

Originally Posted by artnada
"Pete", is a user/customer who is as annoyed about VM's potential selling of your browsing habits, as the rest of us are. In the VM newsgroups he has created a Firefox (FF2) Plugin for us all. I considered this so important that I even converted to FF from Maxthon.


Here is his message.

Hello all,

I've got all the Dephormation options working now (see
http://www.dephormation.org.uk/ or http://www.planetsaturn.pwp.blueyond...k/dephormation .... same page).

I've added a feature which alerts you to Phorm/Webwise/OIX content/links/ads on a page (off by default, but easy to enable).

The startup alert is more informative, but can also be suppressed using the options.

Enjoy. Feedback is always welcome.

Pete.
=======================================

Tested on FF 2.0.0.12/Window XP. Will install into 1.5 - 2.0.0.x.

To install;
1) Save dephormation.xpi to your hard disk.
2) Select Tools Menu/Add-ons to display the Add-on window.
3) Drag the XPI file into the Firefox Add-on window.
4) Restart Firefox. An alert is displayed as Firefox starts confirming that Dephormation is active.

To uninstall
1) Select Tools menu/Add-ons to display the Add-on window.
2) Click on the Dephormation 'Uninstall' button
3) Restart Firefox.

Options;

"Disable Phorm" - sets a Phorm opt out cookie with every page load (defaults to on) Startup Alert - displays a Dephormation startup confirmation (defaults to on)

"Randomize UID" - changes the Phorm UID cookie to a random message (defaults to on)

"OIX Ad Alert" - displays an alert if a page you are viewing contains
Phorm/OIX/Webwise references (defaults to off)

nice to see people are already coming up with thoughts and ideas on how to hinder phorm

Sirius 08-03-2008 13:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34502774)
Good news Sirius, but help me out here. In your top quote, when you still hated the fact that according to the opinions of some, and none from VM, they would still collect your browsing data, even after you opted out.....how is that different from Talk Talk?

Keep in mind also that both BT and Talk Talk have committed to trials which means installation of their equipment inside their network edge, that is why their logo's are on the Website page, VM have not, they are only looking at the proposal.

Or were you just agreeing that Talk Talk made it an opt-in service?

Couple of questions then.

Would you go to Talk Talk now that they have made this opted in?

Would you stay with VM if they also went opt in only?

---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ----------



:clap:

And you can bet there are a raft of other ISP's waiting to add this to their system. Reminds me of Sky going to Google mail for its customers.....and the mess they made of that. ;)

Just for those that CANNOT read what i stated.

I will stay with VM IF they can guarantee that my data does not get touched in any way by any of the equipment that they will install in there headends or pop sites. IF talk talk say that they can do that then VM should be able to do that again. I do NOT want my personal information to be subject to Deep Packet Investigation. To do that VM will have to install equipment. I do not give and will not give VM permission to do that. Should they do that i WILL disconnect all my services from them.

If i have to disconnect i will go to a company that has NO Phorm spyware equipment installed in the POP or exchange that they use. At the moment that will be Be Unlimited.


Now was that clear enough

mertle 08-03-2008 14:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I know few here saying if VM go ahead thats it they are moving lock stock and barrel there custom.

Thats your decision but you must remember your moving from the frying pan and straight into the fire if you goto BT telephony & SKY TV.

If you think VM is bad then SKY, BT is just as evil to support PHORM and dont deserve custom.

Why should you move your TV to SKY if SKY talk talk is going to support PHORM. To me it does not add up on that front.

As for telephony its different you still got to go to a scummy company BT so we can get a NON compliant ISP.

BT probably laughing that they know they cant lose custom due to we all have to move to BT in order to get BE.

I maintain if I do have to go BT my TV will stay with VM the alternative I suppose is freeview(not exactly brilliant service), I am not allowed a satelite but for those who want a clean break from these companies I suggest look into FREESAT for TV.

You cant completely cut ranks to teach all companies a lesson due to telephony issue.
I suppose you could decide against a land line all together and go mobile but then what about internet.

Basically in a sense what I am saying you cant punish one to move to another evil attitude company who is going to support PHORM. It makes no sense.

Florence 08-03-2008 15:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have Sky for TV if I move all I move is Telephone and Internet...

RizzyKing 08-03-2008 15:25

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Mertle i understand and see the point you are making but what alternative is there. Are you saying oppose this but if our protests are ignored do nothing??!!!!. can you imagine what will be next if everyone does that it just shout to company's "treat me how you want and i won't do anything cause your all crap" no if people feel strongly then they should take action. If that means moving to an isp using BT infrastructure then fine as long as that isp doesn't use and will not use phorm i can live with that.

Traduk 08-03-2008 15:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
It does not make sense to remove all packages from VM and place some or part of those packages with companies who also within BB divisions follow the same practices but the central point of leaving is being missed.

If I leave VM it will be all packages and the cost to them is way in excess of a grand per annum. They lose that money and will never get it back. If the replacements are B.T. landline then they get telephone rental and billing and from that I can choose a non Phorm ISP and change suppliers with a simple MAC code if they go Phorm.

The TV would be via Sky and it is fairly obvious that no contractual obligations would be entered into which incorporated BB.

With VM we are a captive audience based on technology but a break from that into the other technologies facilitates freedom.

It is the practice of many multi-faceted companies to operate separate divisions and independent profit centres under a central umbrella. Consumer power comes from recognising that the company is a whole environment and that removal of funding from the whole is maximising the impact against the division that wishes to implement undesirable changes. VM is without doubt very vulnerable to churn over this issue and on a spend factor per customer possibly on a ratio of X4 or X5.

popper 08-03-2008 16:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
:D
it appears PhormUKTechTeam is now known as PhormUKPRteam

see his latest comments here
http://techdirt.com/articles/20080306/074534461.shtml
well done, if only it were that easy to stop the unlawful processing of your data to the 'The ISP's profiler' (note their really pushing the onus of blame to the ISP now as noted above).

remember kids, send that 'Data Protection Act notice' and make sure to mention to remove the right to process,export or pass your data property to the 'profiler' as well as anything outside provision and billing.

ohh BTW, on that MPs blog,Techteam (as apposed PhormUKTechTeam, aka PhormUKPRTeam) claims to be infact a real tech inside Phorm
"I am part of the techteam (and use the name techteam) at phorm...."
http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

---------- Post added at 15:02 ---------- Previous post was at 14:47 ----------

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...t_mid2006.html
Phorm has been hatching its plans since at least mid-2006
...
And here's some confirmation: an article from Citywire from April 2006, just after Carphone Warehouse announced its "free" broadband service. (Well, the broadband is free, but you have to switch to its phone service.)
Citywire doesn't store its old pages (how useless is that?) but Google's cache does.

The article begins:
One company that rejoiced at Carphone Warehouse's recent free broadband launch is 121Media, a recently AIM-listed company that reckons it has the revenue model ISPs will now need to survive.
121Media has developed a piece of technology that sits on the server of an internet service provider (ISP) and enables usage data to be collected and analysed on the fly for every one of the ISP's customers. The data is anonymous, but tells the system exactly which web pages the user has viewed and what they have done on those pages, so that an advert can be served to them as they wait for the next page to load, which is precisely targeted to their usage patterns.
Fascinating. I guess we all weren't paying enough attention, eh?

Slightly over-optimistic though was the prediction that
[Ertegrul] said revenues should start coming in from this new business model in the second half of this year.
That would be 2006. We might not see the results until the second half of this year - 2008.
...
"

---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:02 ----------

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc5d99ee-e...0779fd2ac.html
"
Phorm down on search protests

By Robert Orr and Neil Hume
Published: March 7 2008 02:00 | Last updated: March 7 2008 02:00

Phorm shares came under pressure yesterday as the online advertising group ran into protests over its targeted search technology.

The Aim-listed company's software maps browsing histories and uses them to target individuals with tailored advertising.

Customers of internet providers that have struck deals with the company recently (BT, Virgin Media and TalkTalk) have complained and a website (www.badphorm.co.uk) has been created for the airing of grievances.

Phorm said its technology protected users' privacy. Its shares closed down 6.5 per cent at £30.75."

Tezcatlipoca 08-03-2008 16:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34502808)
If you think VM is bad then SKY, BT is just as evil to support PHORM and dont deserve custom.

Why should you move your TV to SKY if SKY talk talk is going to support PHORM. To me it does not add up on that front.


Sky does not (yet?) support Phorm.


TalkTalk = The Carphone Warehouse's broadband, not Sky.

Traduk 08-03-2008 16:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Popper,

I read the links you posted and it looks like phorm's PR guys had better go back to Phorm's CEO for another briefing.

The PR guy is stating that on opt-out is a total by-pass and is quite emphatic about it whereas the CEO is on record as stating that data will still be mirrored to Phorm but discarded. You cannot have two opposing answers to the same question and one would assume that the correct answer is the CEO's version. I particularly picked up on the CEO's term "mirrored" because as we know in computer parlance that can represent a raid array set-up whereby the contents of hard-drive are duplicated on another.

I also liked the almost pleading request to come visit us and be convinced. In theory their product has massive merits to them and the ISP's and in a perfect world should be secure. We don't live in a perfect world.

Tezcatlipoca 08-03-2008 17:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Some answers from someone who contacted us on behalf of Phorm...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phorm
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501465-post603.html

Re RIPA and Data Protection Act

The DPA regulates the processing of personal data (as defined in the Act). As outlined above Phorm's technology is designed in such a way that it does not collect or store any information from which it is possible to identify an individual. Because we at Phorm treat Data Protection issues with the highest degree of importance, our ISPs, in conjunction with us, will obtain the consent of their users to the Phorm service and users are free to withdraw that consent and opt out of the service at any time. RIPA is intended to protect the privacy of private communications. As outlined above, the Phorm service respects users' privacy at all times by ensuring that users remain anonymous and by obtaining the user's consent to the service via our ISPs. We have considered RIPA with great care and are satisfied that our technology does not breach RIPA. We welcome ideas on ongoing oversight.

OIX has been built with the highest standards of consumer privacy protection in mind which has been verified by Ernst & Young and the world's foremost privacy advocate, Simon Davies of Privacy International. In addition, our 3 ISP partners have done their own detailed due diligence and are entirely satisfied that this poses no threat whatsoever to their customers or their personal data.

Re: prior companies

Some time ago, Kent did have an adware company called PeopleOnPage. This was not spyware, and the distinction between the two is very important. Adware is a software component designed to deliver ads as part of a legitimate commercial product or service.



Spyware or Malware has four essential features:



1. It is installed on a user's computer without their knowledge or

consent

2. It is hidden so that the user cannot find it

3. It is designed to be difficult or impossible for the user to remove

4. Does some harm (often illegal) to the user or their computer: in the

case of spyware, stealing information (particularly passwords, credit card details etc.)



Spyware/Malware is surreptitiously installed, is hidden, cannot be removed and does intentional harm, e.g. stealing data.



The PeopleOnPage program, in contrast:



1. Was installed as part of a download process in which the user had to

read and confirm acceptance of an End User Licence Agreement (EULA). In the EULA, the user had to explicitly accept that in return for the free software, they would be shown advertising.

2. Was clearly displayed in the user¹s Add/Remove programs listing.

3. Was removable by using the standard Add/Remove program dialogue.

4. Was designed to legally show targeted advertising to users, based on

their browsing behaviour as part of a commercial relationship with software providers and advertisers, and with the consent and knowledge of the user.



PeopleOnPage was installed with knowledge and consent, could be identified and deleted, and was not intended to cause harm or steal information.



POP was gradually phased out by Kent due to his changing the direction of the Company which culminated in Phorm and the creation of OIX. OIX has been built with the highest standards of consumer privacy protection in mind which has been verified by Ernst & Young and the world's foremost privacy advocate, Simon Davies of Privacy International. In addition, our 3 ISP partners have done their own detailed due diligence and are entirely satisfied that this poses no threat whatsoever to their customers or their personal data.



http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501469-post604.html

When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501475-post606.html

When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server. Your browsing behaviour will not be sent to Phorm if you opt out. If you are looking for an opt-out mechanism that doesn't rely on the presence of a cookie, you can set your browser (Firefox, IE and Opera) to block cookies from our ad-serving domain, webwise.net.

---------- Post added at 16:07 ---------- Previous post was at 16:00 ----------

Consent -

I do not consider an "opt-out" service to be truly consensual.


"verified by Ernst & Young and the world's foremost privacy advocate, Simon Davies of Privacy International" -

Simon Davies' work for Phorm was *not* done on behalf of Privacy International, but was instead done by his new privacy start-up called 80/20 Thinking Ltd.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7280791.stm

I have read elsewhere that Privacy International are rather annoyed at Phorm suggesting that they approved of the system.


PeopleOnPage - Don't know much about it, but F-Secure still classed it as Spyware...

http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/peopleonpage.shtml



Opt-out -

I still don't think this has been fully explained.

It says "When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server. Your browsing behaviour will not be sent to Phorm if you opt out.", yet elsewhere they have stated that whether opted out or not, your data still passes to the "Profiler" equipment based at the ISP (which although allegedly owned by the ISP, is still a Phorm piece of equipment running Phorm software, it just apparently doesn't send your info any further for ad targeting if you're "opted-out".)

RizzyKing 08-03-2008 17:19

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I think there is a deliberate policy now to muddy the waters and make is so very difficult for ordinary users to wade through it. They know they are not going to convince the sort of people on forums but they can get the masses to walk into it under a misplaced belief that it will benefit them.

PhormUKPRteam 08-03-2008 17:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Hi all
Further to prior posts I will try and get the name changed over.

Secondly, you may all be interested to know there will be a second live web chat with the CEO and CIO of Phorm early next week. Details will follow on the board and via email to Mick.

Traduk 08-03-2008 17:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
According to Symantec.... Apropos is classified as Spyware with a high risk category. It supplies details on it's removal which are in essence very complicated. The damage it can cause is to put the CPU into a 100% usage state which for all intents and purposes stops any other function and hard resetting (power button crashing) is the only way out.

Of the four criteria listed the only one that escapes the total falsehood claims is the fact that users chose to or were duped into installing the thing. Are we going to be duped into the next generation exploitation.

The publisher of the Spyware is named as Peopleonpage and we are all now familiar who was responsible for that.

IMO this PR exercise is so crude and so filled with obvious get out of jail attempts that I get more concerned every time they put something in print.


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