Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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As for where I would go if this was implemented, some express a fear of the BT network this needs to be looked at as it stands now. BT is split into more than one company. BT openreach. Deals with faults fitting new lines and such the Engineers side. BT Wholesale. Supplies BB to other companies. BT Retail. This is where phorm is supposed to be beta tested. I am going to email Ben to ask him if there is any chance that phorm will be used on the BT wholesale side aswell as the retail. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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No wonder the Beeb and consumers are confused if you own CEO has no idea what the guys involvement is. :rolleyes: So do PI endorse your product or not? I've been open minded about this product until I found out my ISP can't switch it off AND I've spent some time reading your PR initiative where different answers are given by different people. :erm: ---------- Post added at 12:36 ---------- Previous post was at 12:30 ---------- Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
As all members are aware I have no way of knowing what IP or email details this Phorm tech used to join this forum but working from details I have aquired I noticed a link with one Phorm rep and a company which in their words.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Detailed interview with Kent Ertegrul posted on The Register - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...gess_ertegrul/
Does it put your mind at rest? not on your nelly! |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
when i read this FBI story
http://www.theinquirer.net/gb/inquir...-whoever-likes "internet spying rules Oops, we did it again By INQUIRER Newsdesk: Friday, 07 March 2008, 10:48 AM SNOOPS AT THE FBI have admitted they repeatedly break their own rules about spying on the internet. For the fourth year running, FBI director Robert Mueller said the agency reguilarly goes beyond its legal limits to collect information on people's emails and web wibbling. In an interesting twist, Mueller tried to claim that this wasn't really the FBI's fault. The telcoms companies the snoops roped in on the cunning plan kept providing "too much information", he said. "We are committed to ensuring that we not only get this right, but maintain the vital trust of the American people," he said. ... " i have to wonder..., replace FBI with tech Phorm comments all over the place such as http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34501464-post602.html "Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism ...." its clear the implication is , its the ISPs fault not Phorms if this all goes titsup as it were... |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Well they have answerd the question in a round about way.
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The decision as to OPT IN OPT OUT has been made also. Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
it would seem then, that it comes under the "... processed for limited purposes;; adequate, relevant and not excessive; ..." part of the DPA, no matter were its being done, its far outside all of these requirements.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
KE: Net neutrality is fascinating. Basically, the websites are at opposite ends of the discussion. What Phorm does is make the ISP the greatest partner a website can have. We think this resolves the tension between websites and ISPs that is the function of net neutrality. It brings both onto the same side.
We're very optimistic in the US http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...gess_ertegrul/ So, the long term goal of Phorm is Net Neutrality. It is well know that some would like to see the internet controlled somehow, companies such as Phorm using their technology can take this process forward. Websites and users not opted-in to Phorm will have their connection throttled by the ISP, those that opt-in will not, in the end, only those websites that opt-in will manage to survive, of course you will have to adhere to their polices, which could mean no criticism of Governments/Companies ect.. which have signed up to Phorm. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
its obvious they are now trying to cover their rear's when this was stated 'It ought to be said that the profiler is operated by the ISP, not us.".
the profiler is owned by Phorm, and as their property, its their legal responseability, and so they are still receaving/processing data unauthorised. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Can I respectully suggest to those who have not done so, too feedback your concerns to virginmedia.feedback newsgroup. The thread subject is called "VM Webise details".
The newsgroup can only be accessed by VM customers. The more responses they get, the better the arguments will get across. This is not to say this thread is not beneficial, it very much is in my opinion, but there are other more direct routes to the management in VM. :) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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2. Why store any numbers? What can a 3 digit number tell about your browsing habits unless they are looking for 420 to market drugs to you? About the only 3 digit number I can think of with marketing possibilities. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
If VM go ahead against the flow of opinion then they can be shown my middle finger :)
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
what I cant understand is why VM is out to self destruct its business.
Its clear many will leave. They just had good figures and some idiot in an office decide to screw its customers great management there. Think also if they go ahead why he heck cant opt out be done with the mac address rather than some stupid Cookie idea. Surely its upto VM to properly openly use a system which completely blocks those who wish NOT to HAVE PHORM. Why the heck has PHORM got stealth adverts system if its not an abuse system. I think its so we dont know we still being monitored even though we opted out. There is no logic to silent adverts other than to deceive. If there was no hidden adverts and all signed up and it was blocked by mac address I would sleep easier when using my credit card. This current system and its opt out is dodgy as hell. I even got a conspiracy that the government wont do jack all. They want us to stop using credit cards and they dont like us using places like play.com. So if there is a fear factor that online purchase are going to be more unsafe we will stop buying online. Finally I am starting to feel this country is now being run by the KGB. With this and this ID card all the cameras etc has the KGB took over parliment. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hi all
I work on behalf of Phorm here in the UK. Many of you may already have seen it but of not there is a transcript of last nights live interview with Phorm's CEO at http://www.webwise.com/chat as well as a Q&A session at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rgess_ertegrul Rgds PhormUktechteam |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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You can stick your PHORM where the sun dont shine. You must be desperate for a job to work for bunch of crooks.:erm: Toto Hi comrade;) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Looks as if the Beeb got around to getting some answers too...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/members/42837.html |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
There are two of us working through all of the forums and threads - sometimes a little cross over occurs.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Be honest we have absolute no guarantees that PHORM wont put maliscious hidden code into its advertisements. When you hear news and stories Memory trick breaks PC encryption. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7275407.stm the last thing you need is company like PHORM allowed legally to infest your machine. Even if PHORM has become all angelic, Hackers could use their system to help hack. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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I have asked for sensible and amicable posts when conducting questions or replies in this thread - any more posts like this will be deleted. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Im on a ps3 forum it happens there its should be made illegal. There is people on forums employed to basically stir it up. All part of viral marketing. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?10
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Thanks Mick
To be clear, yes I work for an external agency for Phorm - a UK PR agency. My job is solely to take the information Phorm is making available - the interviews, the Q&As etc and place them into these discussions. I believe I am totally open about this - my log in name is pretty clear, and the first line of my introduction clearly states who I work for. It is my job to simply present the facts about Phorm. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Now, lets just recap, A member of the Phorm tech team came on this board yesterday and categorically stated that “If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.†Clear indeed, although deliberately misleading. Why? Well because although no data is processed, it does still pass through Phorm (as I suspected all along). Consider this quote here from their CEO Kent Ertegrul - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rul/page3.html Quote:
In that same interview Kent Ertegrul keeps banging on about how bad google is, but see thing is, I can choose not to use google if I so want. With Phorm there is no REAL choice. Data still passes through the Phorm system. I’m more angry now after reading that interview than I was before. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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There is many good questions on here and even those by the media NOT been clearly answered. So why are you here if our questions are not been answered. Its clear there is something extremely dodgy why we going to have hidden adverts you cant see. Why is this even there. why is the system opt out rather than opt in. Why should we have to eben touch webwise (which I feel is rouse) to just pick up a cookie. Why is it at all a flimsy cookie based system to OPT out a system which can be easily deleted by hidden code by PHORM. Like I said there far better system to make sure PHORM is truelly opt out ONE use people mac address held by ISP which all there data will be witheld to be passed to PHORM. Another a program installed on our machine which PHORM would be told to look to see if its active. This being provided by ISP to block PHORM if installed. What guarantees are there about malicious piggy back coding either from PHORM or hackers. Ultimately can we guarantee our banking and online purchasing is safe from PHORM. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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? for phorm why wont you supply a drawing diagram of how you connect to the suppliers isp connection p.s virgin cable supervisors do know of this forum and have been reading it today and yesterday as i forwarded this address to em probably like countless others theres 2 ways i can go from here either end contract with virgin media once phorm is started up or walk into a court room and under data protection act force virgin media to disconnect phorm from any connection of mine |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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What is EXACTLY the relationship between Privacy International and Phorm. Do they have anything at all to say about your product as stated by the CEO of Phorm? http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34502219-post702.html Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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as the Phorm 3rd party UKPRteam, how do you propose to correctly answer the real Tech questions that are in many places and asked by even more people....? is there also a UKlegalTeam to answer the RIPA/DPA/copyright and several other UK and EU legal questions. or are the millions of UK ISP users effected by the ISP/Phorm contract going to be left with no other 'in good faith' option but to start small claims court proceedings (as was done with the UK banks due to no other 'in good faith' options being put forward by the offending banking partys) against the ISPs and Phorm etc. perhaps to get the answers and rulings to restate the acts in question, and return some balance to the one sided contracts, and once again remove 3rd partys from interfering with the UK consumers? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
80/20 Thinking is a consulting business founded and run by Managing Director Simon Davies, who is also a director of Privacy International, one of the leading privacy advocacy bodies. Phorm has retained 80/20 Thinking to conduct a Privacy Impact Assessment on its technologies, systems and policies and we will work with them on an ongoing basis throughout the year.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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While in certain cases its a very good idea to police activity its the worry where it will all end. Ultimately it treats everyone as guilty and treads on or civil liberties. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I was starting to think TechTeam was a PR agency.
It smacks of a couple of years ago where (allegedly) the then chairman of Southampton FC had a PR agency attempt to Influence the flow of information in an upcoming battle for company ownership on the most popular forum for Southampton FC fans. but frankly TechTeam and PhormUKTechTeam, as far as we know has no detailed knowledge of the workings of ISP's data capture Phorms patents, and the like. Maybe they're just passing on uniformed propaganda meant to mislead us and stall on complaining to the ISP's involved. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Again Why have you not answered our queries. If that is why your here. popper, none, florence, myself plus many more etc have put some very good questions. Which you eloquently seem to be ignoring just try and justify your existence. Yet you still have not given us your answer. Though I suspect it will be typical PR spin and NOT the truth. What is so hard to be absolutely transparant of the operation and its effect and implications to us. What is VM set to gain from PHORM and what has PHORM got to hide. ---------- Post added at 18:16 ---------- Previous post was at 18:11 ---------- Quote:
Its hard to even say they are PR people more just a normal bloke paid to troll various forums. Next we will be hearing fby them all ISP's will do it. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Ok i said i was not going to comment on this but reading that we now have a PR person for phorm on here i couldn't resist. Do you understand that the vast majority of us have zero trust in phorm and any of it's promises or reassurances and who exactly thought it was a good idea to have PR company employee's trying to convince the masses given that PR is also not something we the general population overly appreciate??.
If you can tell me and all the others here how we avoid completely totally and utterly anything to do with phorm and our internet i am happy to hear it other then that you will save yourself a a great deal of time by going out and buying a dead horse and a whip (on company exspenses of course). While i understand your just doing a job you have to understand we don't want phorm there is no slant you can put on it WE DON'T WANT IT. Please relay that information to your client and hopefully they will get the hint. If this does come to be implemented by VM other then cancel all VM services i have i will try and find out what companys employ phorm and will boycott all of their products contacting them to let them know why i am boycotting something else we can all do. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Here is a new question. Being as EY has done a US privacy review and the other Privacy reviews are done to US standards, why is this being marketed to UK ISPs first when grabbing ISPs such as Time Warner Cable or Verizon FiOS or Cablevision or ComCast would get more subscribers.
So why is the initial introduction into the UK marked, not the US one where most internet innovation usually occurs first? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Noone is going to answer any questions in an hostile environment and quite frankly I don't blame them. :rolleyes: |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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So much for helping us;) RizzyKing WELL SAID. ultimately thats what I want to know. WHY CANT PHORM and there PR(TROLLING) MAKE it clear easy permanent 1 off opt OUT (better make it opt in only). WHy is it so hard for them to be open and honest. Like I fear they will implement hidden code to kill our so called opt out cookie. Afterall doubt it would be hard for company of its background to implement a kill program forcing us all into PHORM. The way I feel about this Its almost like a legalised hacking of your PC. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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infact its perhaps just bad timing for the likes Phorm and 'the new and improved Virgin Media brand' greed, due mainly to the UK banks and their greed forcing the UK populas to finally react to the unlawful charges. the UK ISPs are perhaps in for a massive shock, if the millions of end users do start sending in the DPA 'removal of processing and export right'notices and start another simple online small claim, this time aimed squarely at the ISPs and Phorm ,instead of the banks. after all the ISPs dont have anywere near the same cash reserves and End users have several problems with the ISPs already (unlimited,throttling,unfair non DD charges etc),so they might just bring it all up in one go now this Phorm has brought the fight to the consumers, who knows! |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Mick i appreciate what your trying to do and am sorry if i am hindering it. People are bound to start going from concern to anger on this issue as so far many of the answers have been well being polite not very adequate and amount to little more then half truth's. Getting blood from a stone would be easier at times or at least thats how it feels no solid answers and nothing from VM.
Thats another bone of contention for me VM what the hell are they doing is this the way cusotmers of VM can expect to be treated in future and if we are successful and stop this deal we will probably be down the same road again with a new company or an old one renamed and a slightly beeter approach. As much as some real answers from phorm would be nice i would much prefer to have someone on behalf of VM here to answer questions and to put our side across to i have tried phoning them and got nothing but "i am not sure what your referring too" or "there really isn't anything to worry about it is being done for your benefit" both of whch just make my temper on this issue worse. Here's a thought maybe the same 5% that are ok with this are the same 5% that hog all the bandwidth. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Those who work in call centres will know that if any customer gets aggressive when they are trying to give them information or help - the rep can terminate the call and they are much within their rights to do that - The same goes for the reps trying to give information on these boards - We might not like what they are saying but getting angry and getting all hot and bothered will solve nothing - I am actually getting sick of repeating myself on this one, shouting the odds doesn't get us what we want. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Looks like the BT boys are getting a few answers - http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=60&tstart=0
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Mick is right and albeit this a highly emotive issue our desires will be best served by concentrating on the weaknesses in response and action by Phorm, it's CEO and agents acting on Phorm's behalf.
IMO having seen both the video interview and the transcript of the one on the Register, the CEO is pushing elements of responsibility towards the other side of the Chinese Wall which of course is the ISP's. There are a limited number of times either the CEO or his agents can keep repeating the same party line. There are two sides to this equation and if Phorm exhaust their ability to quell customer anger, the ISP management must respond. Phorm are such an easy target given their history in a former guise that it would prove an enlightenment to see the logic of the ISP decision makers who allowed even the thought of this liaison to last more than milliseconds. The pressure must be kept on and progressively increased until the clamour for answers, hopefully from the press, forces ISP directors out of their bunkers and into a mode of open discussion. We can then decide whether as customers we wish to continue to subscribe and share-holders can decide whether the board of directors needs changes. Phorm would not be of any concern to any of us if it wasn't because of ISP management decisions. I suspect that Phorm are hopelessly losing the battle for hearts and minds so I guess that the various ISP's management teams had better do something before the damage gets seriously out of control. I believe that once this course of action becomes common knowledge amongst all UK internet users, it has the potential to destroy ISP's. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Phorm can only give so much some questions are more related to VM like why not an OPT-IN instead of OPT-OUT? What does VM get out of selling us to Phorm? Have VM worked out just how much revenue they could lose if customers decide to move to other ISPs rather than be forced onto this Phorm program? With present day methods of scripting just how sure are VM that this system isn't hackable now or in the future? Could this Phorm ever be caught out with the many online WORMS which can happen with almost any server thus allowing access to information? Sometimes addresses are passed over MSN and other medias or web emails this Phorm will gather this information and could pick up an address or two? Finally as I have decided I do not want to be apart of this Phorm and have already told VM over phone and by the VM webwise feedback in the news, I wil next be contacting DPA to see where I stand with regards to my Data not being allowed to be farmed, part farmed or even allowed onto any server that is connected with Phorm. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I have no sympathy for any ISP that would destroy itself though a partnership with a company like Phorm. It’s an inherently bad idea to implement such a system and everyone that HAS’NT got a vested interest in it can see that.
Part of the reason why so many are getting angered with the responses they have received so far is because phorm play games with semantics to hide the reality. Still, I suppose it’s to be expected with their dubious chequered past as adware peddlers. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
as a change of pace
http://www.crainsnewyork.com/apps/pb...&rssfeed=rss01 Virgin Media names new chief exec "Neil Berkett was the driving force behind the integration of Telewest Global, Inc. into NTL Inc.; which adopted the name Virgin after buying Richard Branson’s mobile-phone company. ... " well done Neil for getting the comfy chair full time, shame your also likely going to be remembered for allowing/aiding and abetting the growing Phorm scandal etc... |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Apologies if posted before, but there's a statement by ICO here...
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Another point that won't or can't be answered is can this be used for total net monitoring as i find it funny that phorm has ignored the US market where it seemed to be heading and has come to the UK after our government has made it clear it wants all net traffic monitored. Is that part of the extended functionality that phorm can offer the government in the future if it is already being in place in the UK. Until that last part is answered i will not expect a lot of help from the government or it's agency's on this issue. While a new direction on the topic it is something i would like answered as i believe it is what phorm will do in future that is the deciding factor in them coming to the UK at a time when the UK seems to be getting harder on internet user's and useage this is not a good place to be at the minute.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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With all that is already about do we really need the spy in the camp. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Even if we can't remember where we originally saw the quote we can use a search engine the spidering :google: does has got much quicker you know. This isn't PR this is a blunt attempt to grind down those that ask questions and shut people up. I've been fairly open minded about this product but for me if you can't get your facts straight now what hope have when you have this system up and running. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7283333.stm "Q: And does the service ever modify information you receive via http that might not be a web-page, i.e. is it possible for it to accidentally break applications that rely on http for communication, especially if those applications work in a way that Phorm didn't anticipate? A.We operate a whitelist of user-agents corresponding to major browsers (e.g. Firefox, IE, Opera). Other user-agents are ignored." So, if I were to use something like Privoxy to alter the user-agent string in my http-headers to something obscure or even none-existent, would that stop Phorm from tracking me? Granted this may cause problems on some websites, but I can easily switch this on/off as required. Still, the onus is yet again on the end user to find a way around the system, which is not how it should be. On a similar note, also taken from the bbc article, "Q: If two people use a shared computer - how will Phorm ensure that a surprise, e.g. a partner researching wedding venues, is not ruined when the other partner next uses the computer and is bombarded with adverts for dresses and rings? A: Most people have a separate login if they are sharing a computer and they will therefore have a separate random number. But also, advertisers using our system can choose to show ads based on the page they are visiting, recently visited, or a longer term basis. Only the last of these would be affected if the computer and the login were share, so this scenario if possible but not that likely. If the person really wants to hide a surprise, they can switch webwise off!" In other words, it's not Phorm's fault if this happens, but it's either the advertisers fault or *my* fault for not setting up seperate logins! |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Ok they really dont know there arses from there faces :LOL:
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So in my eyes the OPT OUT from this SPYWARE is no such thing. VIRGIN will still be able to track you every move. ? Anything whats so bloody ever. :upyours: Virgin Bloody Media |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I have yet to see a computer in friends or family members houses where multiple users of one computer have been set up for seperate user log-ins. Of course some people will have but most wouldn't have a clue where to start.
Unfortunately the "most people" is straight out of the political spin book which is always a convenient assumption but rarely true. This guy must really think we are all mugs but fails to realise that we have had a decade of spin training and can unravel it as fast as it is spoken |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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It is also often necessary if you use outlook / outlook express for your mail handling as you need to set up individual profiles for each user of the mail system, though these days with more people using web based email there is less of a reason to do this. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
SMHarman,
I was of course aiming to highlight the spin :-) The reality is more usually along the lines that where adults or older children have access they do so on separate computers fed by routers. Saves all the endless fights about usage. I cannot imagine the hoops that need to be jumped through to make web access child safe and the way my eldest daughter has implemented it is via perpetual postponement of provision of a PC to my grandson (9). My children got to cut their teeth on a Sinclair ZX :-) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I wonder if anyone's employer has a view on Phorm
I do some work from home and I am sure my employer won't want my browsing research to be monitored in any way I suspect that a non-phorm ISP policy may be introduced |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I think some of the answers being given by the Phorm people are being left deliberately vague, or are often being qualified with something on the end, much like a politician would do. For example, the standard reply when asked about 'If I opt out is it really switched off?' seems to be:
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However when the register asked for further details on this it came to light that even when you opt out a mirror of the data is still sent to a 'Profiler': Quote:
And now I find the following on the BBC, this is an admittance that the 'Profiler' software is from Phorm: Quote:
So, if I'm understanding this correctly, even if I opt out my data is mirrored and sent to a 'Profiler', this profiler is running Phorms 'Profiles' Software ? In what way is this being 100% switched off ? Also, is anybody else even more concerned that it now seems like the ISP's are allowing Phorms equipment and software to operate within the ISP network ? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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While I'm here, I should say my opinion on this whole thing is that all Phorm's assurances about user consent obtained 'via their ISP' isn't worth a hill of beans, because Phorm is well aware that the ISPs are planning to use an opt-in rather than an opt-out system to gain 'consent' from their victim-customers. Phorm is therefore complicit in this, no matter how hard it may wriggle and point the finger at the likes of Virgin and BT. The ISPs are not going to implement an opt-in system because if they did, next to nobody would bother to opt in, and the whole process would become rather pointless and more to the point, would make them a whole lot less money. Our best strategy here is to acknowledge the ISPs are not going to alter this policy, unless they are convinced the whole thing is making them so unpopular it's in their interests to totally abandon it. In the meantime, the more we shout for customers to opt out, the better. It's the only weapon we have, and hopefully it will hit them in the pocket, which let's face it is the only place it really hurts if you inhabit the secluded alternate universe of the Virgin boardroom. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Just remember people, be prepared to vote with your wallets when it comes to crunch time. No retreat No surrender. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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By the way, part of the reason that I could never trust Phorm's CEO is that he claims that there was nothing wrong with his spyware, he said he was just misunderstood and it was only adware! Software that installs without a users consent and knowledge, and then hides itself from virus scanning isn't the act of innocent software. ---------- Post added at 22:37 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ---------- Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
ChrisT's post is well written and speaks volumes
The missus is already looking at sky TV for price and if this goes ahead....i did'nt ever think i would say this but BE here i come, always been an advocate of NTL selling many people VM internet 'n i don't even work for em. My question:will VM listen to customers or rely upon the non realizing customers to chase £. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Fresh off the press
I’ve knocked up a couple more anti-phorm sigs for those that may want a little more variety, av [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] Code:
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/1433/antiphormavqy6.jpg sig [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] Code:
http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/4917/stopphormsigv2wv9.jpg sig [img]Download Failed (1)[/img] Code:
http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/8130/phightphormsigv2rn8.jpg Feel free to share them with as many folk as possible. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I have been annoyed with a lot of things NTL / Virgin have done over the years, with capping and so on. But this i wont have. I WILL be looking for another ISP. I already have a BT phone line in the house so it really will be no problem for me to move else where
---------- Post added at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was at 00:04 ---------- Bethere will be upgrading my exchange in June. A lot cheaper too, could be going with them :) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Virgin won't lose many customer's at all over this but they'll lose me.
I don't even have a BT phone line but i'm willing to pay for one now. This is the last straw for me. I just hpoe that this does'nt become the norm with ISP's in the future. This whole situation is total and utter BS and i have no faith in those 3 ISP's or our government. You just know this carbage is going down. :-( Too much money for it not to and too many subscriber's who just don't know the score. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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That, I think, is the thing... They & other ISPs will potentially be getting £££££ £Â£Â£Â£Â£ from this... will they really give a monkey's about what we think if they stand to make so much money from this? And although there's a hell of a lot of anti-Phorm feeling here & on other forums, & some not exactly flattering press on some websites, I'd bet that the majority of customers simply will not know or care about it... they'll fall for the spin about targeted ads being beneficial, & they'll fall for the anti-phishing rubbish (not the main "benefit", & surely not really necessary for anyone with IE7 or Firefox etc.). |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I wonder what this site http://www.webwise.ie/ thinks of Phorm using webwise as the name of part of their operation. Well when I say site, I think that means the Irish government and possibly the EU.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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If it did, then either he, or ICO isn't telling the truth because the ICO have only just requested the info... ---------- Post added at 08:18 ---------- Previous post was at 08:14 ---------- Quote:
That's how strongly I feel ---------- Post added at 08:37 ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 ---------- Looks as if TalkTalk are getting their act together and actually listening... http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forum...&postcount=117 |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Well done Talk Talk :clap::clap: for having the balls to listen to your customers Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
In a previous post I noted that the reason Phorm (or rather their representatives) have come onto this board and others was purely out of self-interest.
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Need proof, see here - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...wtopic.php?408 Quote:
You can also keep track of their share price here - http://www.londonstockexchange.com/e...RM#PriceChartl With £16M riding on this, Kent Ertsdfsdfsf certainly has a lot to lose. So you can defiantly expect more PR fluff n spin in the coming weeks/months. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
The announcement by Talk Talk needs IMO to be read in the context of purely what is says and what it doesn't say.
They state very clearly that they are committed to the trial from which it can be assumed that a contractual obligation exists which would be financially painful to them should they not proceed. The statement regarding opt-in must be viewed ONLY with regards to the trial and trialists because that is all the statement truly relates to and has no relevance to what might happen with a general roll-out. IMO they have hedged their bets very neatly and pushed into the future any decision on whether it's a failure and we will not implement or it's the best thing since sliced bread therefore everyone must have it and it's opt-out. I suspect that this is a clever ploy to buy time and let the furore settle down and will probably be adopted by the other ISP's. It does open another avenue of approach for Talk Talk users which is that if the Phorm system can be totally by-passed in a trial then by default it must be possible if the profiler is implemented on a permanent basis. If the ISP subsequently chooses that opt-out is the way to go then they become accountable for that choice. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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If they can completely remove you from the profiler then i cannot see why VM will not be able to do the same. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Keep in mind also that both BT and Talk Talk have commited to trials which means installation of their equipment inside their network edge, that is why their logo's are on the Webise page, VM have not, they are only looking at the proposal. Or were you just agreeing that Talk Talk made it an opt-in service? Couple of questions then. Would you go to Talk Talk now that they have made this opted in? Would you stay with VM if they also went opt in only? ---------- Post added at 11:54 ---------- Previous post was at 11:47 ---------- Quote:
And you can bet there are a raft of other ISP's waiting to add this to their system. Reminds me of Sky going to google mail for its customers.....and the mess they made of that. ;) |
Dont want to be phormed? Look here
Just noticed that there a nice Firefox Plugin to help mess with phorms system. Its called dephormation.
Note however, dephormation is not a solution. Its mearly a fig leaf for your privacy. original forum link - http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/s...d.php?t=758923 Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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I will stay with VM IF they can guarantee that my data does not get touched in any way by any of the equipment that they will install in there headends or pop sites. IF talk talk say that they can do that then VM should be able to do that again. I do NOT want my personal information to be subject to Deep Packet Investigation. To do that VM will have to install equipment. I do not give and will not give VM permission to do that. Should they do that i WILL disconnect all my services from them. If i have to disconnect i will go to a company that has NO Phorm spyware equipment installed in the POP or exchange that they use. At the moment that will be Be Unlimited. Now was that clear enough |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I know few here saying if VM go ahead thats it they are moving lock stock and barrel there custom.
Thats your decision but you must remember your moving from the frying pan and straight into the fire if you goto BT telephony & SKY TV. If you think VM is bad then SKY, BT is just as evil to support PHORM and dont deserve custom. Why should you move your TV to SKY if SKY talk talk is going to support PHORM. To me it does not add up on that front. As for telephony its different you still got to go to a scummy company BT so we can get a NON compliant ISP. BT probably laughing that they know they cant lose custom due to we all have to move to BT in order to get BE. I maintain if I do have to go BT my TV will stay with VM the alternative I suppose is freeview(not exactly brilliant service), I am not allowed a satelite but for those who want a clean break from these companies I suggest look into FREESAT for TV. You cant completely cut ranks to teach all companies a lesson due to telephony issue. I suppose you could decide against a land line all together and go mobile but then what about internet. Basically in a sense what I am saying you cant punish one to move to another evil attitude company who is going to support PHORM. It makes no sense. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I have Sky for TV if I move all I move is Telephone and Internet...
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Mertle i understand and see the point you are making but what alternative is there. Are you saying oppose this but if our protests are ignored do nothing??!!!!. can you imagine what will be next if everyone does that it just shout to company's "treat me how you want and i won't do anything cause your all crap" no if people feel strongly then they should take action. If that means moving to an isp using BT infrastructure then fine as long as that isp doesn't use and will not use phorm i can live with that.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
It does not make sense to remove all packages from VM and place some or part of those packages with companies who also within BB divisions follow the same practices but the central point of leaving is being missed.
If I leave VM it will be all packages and the cost to them is way in excess of a grand per annum. They lose that money and will never get it back. If the replacements are B.T. landline then they get telephone rental and billing and from that I can choose a non Phorm ISP and change suppliers with a simple MAC code if they go Phorm. The TV would be via Sky and it is fairly obvious that no contractual obligations would be entered into which incorporated BB. With VM we are a captive audience based on technology but a break from that into the other technologies facilitates freedom. It is the practice of many multi-faceted companies to operate separate divisions and independent profit centres under a central umbrella. Consumer power comes from recognising that the company is a whole environment and that removal of funding from the whole is maximising the impact against the division that wishes to implement undesirable changes. VM is without doubt very vulnerable to churn over this issue and on a spend factor per customer possibly on a ratio of X4 or X5. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
:D
it appears PhormUKTechTeam is now known as PhormUKPRteam see his latest comments here http://techdirt.com/articles/20080306/074534461.shtml well done, if only it were that easy to stop the unlawful processing of your data to the 'The ISP's profiler' (note their really pushing the onus of blame to the ISP now as noted above). remember kids, send that 'Data Protection Act notice' and make sure to mention to remove the right to process,export or pass your data property to the 'profiler' as well as anything outside provision and billing. ohh BTW, on that MPs blog,Techteam (as apposed PhormUKTechTeam, aka PhormUKPRTeam) claims to be infact a real tech inside Phorm "I am part of the techteam (and use the name techteam) at phorm...." http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php ---------- Post added at 15:02 ---------- Previous post was at 14:47 ---------- http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...t_mid2006.html Phorm has been hatching its plans since at least mid-2006 ... And here's some confirmation: an article from Citywire from April 2006, just after Carphone Warehouse announced its "free" broadband service. (Well, the broadband is free, but you have to switch to its phone service.) Citywire doesn't store its old pages (how useless is that?) but Google's cache does. The article begins: One company that rejoiced at Carphone Warehouse's recent free broadband launch is 121Media, a recently AIM-listed company that reckons it has the revenue model ISPs will now need to survive. 121Media has developed a piece of technology that sits on the server of an internet service provider (ISP) and enables usage data to be collected and analysed on the fly for every one of the ISP's customers. The data is anonymous, but tells the system exactly which web pages the user has viewed and what they have done on those pages, so that an advert can be served to them as they wait for the next page to load, which is precisely targeted to their usage patterns.Fascinating. I guess we all weren't paying enough attention, eh? Slightly over-optimistic though was the prediction that [Ertegrul] said revenues should start coming in from this new business model in the second half of this year.That would be 2006. We might not see the results until the second half of this year - 2008. ... " ---------- Post added at 15:09 ---------- Previous post was at 15:02 ---------- http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dc5d99ee-e...0779fd2ac.html " Phorm down on search protests By Robert Orr and Neil Hume Published: March 7 2008 02:00 | Last updated: March 7 2008 02:00 Phorm shares came under pressure yesterday as the online advertising group ran into protests over its targeted search technology. The Aim-listed company's software maps browsing histories and uses them to target individuals with tailored advertising. Customers of internet providers that have struck deals with the company recently (BT, Virgin Media and TalkTalk) have complained and a website (www.badphorm.co.uk) has been created for the airing of grievances. Phorm said its technology protected users' privacy. Its shares closed down 6.5 per cent at £30.75." |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Sky does not (yet?) support Phorm. TalkTalk = The Carphone Warehouse's broadband, not Sky. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Popper,
I read the links you posted and it looks like phorm's PR guys had better go back to Phorm's CEO for another briefing. The PR guy is stating that on opt-out is a total by-pass and is quite emphatic about it whereas the CEO is on record as stating that data will still be mirrored to Phorm but discarded. You cannot have two opposing answers to the same question and one would assume that the correct answer is the CEO's version. I particularly picked up on the CEO's term "mirrored" because as we know in computer parlance that can represent a raid array set-up whereby the contents of hard-drive are duplicated on another. I also liked the almost pleading request to come visit us and be convinced. In theory their product has massive merits to them and the ISP's and in a perfect world should be secure. We don't live in a perfect world. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Some answers from someone who contacted us on behalf of Phorm...
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Consent - I do not consider an "opt-out" service to be truly consensual. "verified by Ernst & Young and the world's foremost privacy advocate, Simon Davies of Privacy International" - Simon Davies' work for Phorm was *not* done on behalf of Privacy International, but was instead done by his new privacy start-up called 80/20 Thinking Ltd. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7280791.stm I have read elsewhere that Privacy International are rather annoyed at Phorm suggesting that they approved of the system. PeopleOnPage - Don't know much about it, but F-Secure still classed it as Spyware... http://www.f-secure.com/sw-desc/peopleonpage.shtml Opt-out - I still don't think this has been fully explained. It says "When you opt out, your browsing information is not passed to Phorm, and as a result, you won't see any targeted ads. If you opt out, none of your data will pass through a Phorm-owned server. Your browsing behaviour will not be sent to Phorm if you opt out.", yet elsewhere they have stated that whether opted out or not, your data still passes to the "Profiler" equipment based at the ISP (which although allegedly owned by the ISP, is still a Phorm piece of equipment running Phorm software, it just apparently doesn't send your info any further for ad targeting if you're "opted-out".) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
I think there is a deliberate policy now to muddy the waters and make is so very difficult for ordinary users to wade through it. They know they are not going to convince the sort of people on forums but they can get the masses to walk into it under a misplaced belief that it will benefit them.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
Hi all
Further to prior posts I will try and get the name changed over. Secondly, you may all be interested to know there will be a second live web chat with the CEO and CIO of Phorm early next week. Details will follow on the board and via email to Mick. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
According to Symantec.... Apropos is classified as Spyware with a high risk category. It supplies details on it's removal which are in essence very complicated. The damage it can cause is to put the CPU into a 100% usage state which for all intents and purposes stops any other function and hard resetting (power button crashing) is the only way out.
Of the four criteria listed the only one that escapes the total falsehood claims is the fact that users chose to or were duped into installing the thing. Are we going to be duped into the next generation exploitation. The publisher of the Spyware is named as Peopleonpage and we are all now familiar who was responsible for that. IMO this PR exercise is so crude and so filled with obvious get out of jail attempts that I get more concerned every time they put something in print. |
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