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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

MovedGoalPosts 06-03-2008 16:18

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
:welcome: Tech Team to Cable Forum :tu:

We look forward to contructive debate that will hopefully clarify many of the issues raised.

tech team 06-03-2008 16:22

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hi Stuart,

Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.

I hope to reassure you as in the scenario you outline, where customers have to opt in to receive webwise, if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out (in your scenario, not opted in) websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing.

I hope this helps -- email me at techteam@phorm.com with any other comments or questions. Thanks. techteam

Toto 06-03-2008 16:26

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hello Tech Team.

I'm sure you are aware that many here have done considerable investigations into your system. Can you please clarify if you intend to carry out another independant audit into your privacy management systems. We appreciate that Earnst & Young have carried out one based on US privacy laws, but the UK is very different. When can we expect a report that covers the UK Data Protection Act, and also RIPA.

---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ----------

Also, do you understand the reluctance of end users of this system to trust Phorm, based on your CEO's reported former activities in the Spyware field?

Given this interest, and what appears to be a fairly weak opt-out method, are you not concerned that respected anti spyware and anti trojan programs are simply going to remove your op-out cookies?

RizzyKing 06-03-2008 16:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Can it please be clarified that opt out is a complete opt out and not simply we don't see the adverts but our browsing is still being farmed ??. Thats the most important thing for me i am sure your a nice guy and all but i would trust saddam hussein more then phorm sorry but it's how i feel.

Mick 06-03-2008 16:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hi and welcome to the site Tech team (Phorm) Thank you for sparing some time to answering some of our questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501464)

Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.

When you say lots of research was conducted, who precisely was asked because when you say add-on, its been made to sound like your protection is something new, isn't the protection provided already by the likes of modern browsers such as Internet Explorer and Firefox etc just the same thing?

lucevans 06-03-2008 16:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Welcome TechTeam, and thank you for having the courage to enter the lion's den!

My question...

If the Phorm system goes live on the VM network, and I choose to opt-out of the system by any of the means that you provide in the FAQs on your Webwise site (e.g. allow the "opt-out" cookie to reside on my computer, or block all access by my computer to the domain OIX.net) how much information about my browsing habits that are not currently processed in any way, will still be collected, analysed, added to a profile or relayed to any system which is related to Phorm or its associates/clients? To be totally clear on this point; I am not asking you whether you will use any data about me if I opt-out; I am asking you whether any such information will be sent to anyone (including your company). I understand the semantic differences between the words collect, analyze, send and use and I would like a definitive statement from your company on which, if any, of these you intend to do in the case of an opt-out?
(Edited down to one question, as requested...)

Mick 06-03-2008 16:41

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I think it would be viable to let tech team answer one question from one member at a time - Let's not over bombard here... Thanks.

I've been asked to forward your questions to Phorm as well VIA email so I will try to get some answers there too if tech team cannot answer here.

dav 06-03-2008 16:45

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501464)
Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.

I hope to reassure you as in the scenario you outline, where customers have to opt in to receive webwise, if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out (in your scenario, not opted in) websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing.

I hope this helps -- email me at techteam@phorm.com with any other comments or questions. Thanks. techteam

Thanks tech team.

This reply is, in part, encouraging as it places the onus of responsibility squarely on VM's shoulders as to the implementation of your ad-forcing system. Is that correct?

However, I would like to question your claim that "lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package."
During this research was Webwise presented as, primarily, an anti-phishing service that also gives a "more relevant" browsing experience, without actually revealing to the survey respondants that all their web traffic was being monitored? If the survey was not completely transparent regarding the technology used, then it results are null and void.

lucevans 06-03-2008 16:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501464)
Hi Stuart,

Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package.

I hope to reassure you as in the scenario you outline, where customers have to opt in to receive webwise, if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out (in your scenario, not opted in) websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing.

I hope this helps -- email me at techteam@phorm.com with any other comments or questions. Thanks. techteam

Your answer above explains what will happen in the case of an "opt-in" implementation of your system. Most people here are far more concerned about the possibilty of the system being implemented as an "opt-out" system on the VM network. If this does indeed go ahead as an "opt-out" system, what data, if any, will be collected, analyzed, sent or used on an individual who has manually "opted-out"?

markt50 06-03-2008 16:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have a few questions:

1). As others have mentioned, the most important thing for me is getting an assurance that if I opt out it really is out. I want it like a switch that means Phorm never see's a single thing I do, even if it checks my data and then makes the decision to leave me out of it then that would not be good enough. Does the process that decides if a user should be processed by Phorm get performed by the ISP, on the ISP's Network, using the ISP's servers, and with passing no data whatsoever to Phorm and Phorms servers, whether internal or external to the ISP ?

2). Is the decision to go for an 'Opt Out' system entirelly at the behest of ISP's or is Phorm as a company pushing this ? Do you recommend an 'Opt Out' deployment method and if so what do you justify this method on ?

3). Having read some of the information we have available it seems like the scope for advertisement catagories is currently limited. Can/Will this be expanded, if so who will control the decision making processes behind this and what assurances do we have that questionable advertisement content will not be targetted to customers such as adult, gambling, religeous, medical etc. Who decides what is appropriate or not ? who decides how much to expand this system ?

4). Phorm insist that their technology is 100% secure and anonymous, to be blunt about it and I don't mean this in an insulting way, but why should we believe you ? what evidence can you provide to backup these claims ?

5). What performance impact does this system have. If you are analysing all this data before I'm served with the web page surely it must have an overhead, sure it might be very small but I just cannot see how this can have no impact with regards to the speed I get web content. I pay for a 20meg Internet connection, I want it to be fast, not have something in the middle slowing things down.

Julian Smart 06-03-2008 16:59

Information Commissioner has received no complaints
 
A journalist has contacted the Information Commissioner's office and says that the IC office have not received a single complaint about Phorm. Considering over 900 people have signed the e-petition, that seems odd. Anyway, here's some information for writing to the Information Commissioner:

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?6

lucevans 06-03-2008 17:11

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenheart (Post 34501496)
Wonder if this had any influence in the lovely review the BBC have served up on Phorm

http://networks.silicon.com/webwatch...9163769,00.htm

Are the BBC already part of OIX?

This wouldn't work with OIX unless the beeb were planning to serve ads to their domestic (i.e. UK-resident) internet users - something which I believe the current BBC charter prohibits. It's a catch-22: if this system were implemented in the UK, they'd only get ad-category data for surfers here in the UK, but they'd only be allowed to push ads using the OIX system (or any other system) to non-UK surfers, who, presumably, don't have their ISPs selling them down the river like BT,VM and TT (yet....)
eeeh - this is getting to be more fun than a John LeCarré novel...

bw41101 06-03-2008 17:21

Re: Information Commissioner has received no complaints
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian Smart (Post 34501491)
A journalist has contacted the Information Commissioner's office and says that the IC office have not received a single complaint about Phorm.

I contacted the ICO myself regarding this matter and was told that people had rung in and complained. However, the ICO will not act upon a complaint until they receive it in writing and then only accompanied by some evidence that the service provider has provided the complainant with related correspondence.

Basically what this means is that you contact the ISP (Virgin Media) and state your complaint/concerns. VM then reply to you with whatever (they think) will appease you. You then contact the ICO in writing with VM's response attached. The ICO then has the mechanism to act.

In view of this, you're in a catch 22 situation because firstly you have to get a response from VM - not guranteed or takes ages. Then if VM get wind of what's going on, all they have to do is to word their responses accordingly so as not to appear as the bad guy.

In the current climate, (I reckon) you'd be hard pressed to get any kind of response from VM - for just such a reason.

Si thee.

ahardie 06-03-2008 17:26

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I would like 'tech team' to explain the line "Because of inherent limitations in controls, error or fraud may occur and not be detected." in the auditor's report. When you consider that internet connections are used for on-line banking etc it's not surprising this is making a lot of people nervous.

wall4856 06-03-2008 17:57

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Opt out opt in who cares?, if this idea is implemented I for one will not be opting in/out I'll just tell Virgin What they can do with their internet connection and if enough people follow suit they will soon change their mind.

tech team 06-03-2008 17:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34501469)
Can it please be clarified that opt out is a complete opt out and not simply we don't see the adverts but our browsing is still being farmed ??. Thats the most important thing for me i am sure your a nice guy and all but i would trust saddam hussein more then phorm sorry but it's how i feel.

Hi RizzyKing, Yes. Opt out is a total opt out. If you have opted out no browsing data will be passed from your ISP to phorm for any purposes. None at all. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Techteam


Hi all,

I am trying to get to all of the posts so please bear with me. Working from ahardie up:
sorry but this is classic auditor language -- they have to add these caveats. If we were to boil down the essence of the report, what E&Y have confirmed, after thoroughly checking our systems and controls, is that all of the privacy claims (see our website) we make are true. Similarly, 80/20 Thinking's MD (Privacy International's Simon Davies) has acknowleged that "Phorm does advance the whole sector of protecting personal information by two to three steps." (see bbc online piece today). I know two or three steps may seem small, but in the context of an online world where searches, browsing histories and IP addresses are stored for months on end, we think not storing any of that data is a big step forward.
Best wishes

Techteam

Shin Gouki 06-03-2008 18:01

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
If there is a complete Opt Out it will come at a price imo.

They are'nt going to let people just opt out without efing them over some way.

tech team 06-03-2008 18:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hi -- to confirm, the BBC is not part of OIX as it does not carry advertising. OIX will only serve ads into existing ad slots onto websites that partner with us. I wanted to clear that up earlier!

Best wishes,
Techteam

ahardie 06-03-2008 18:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501552)
I am trying to get to all of the posts so please bear with me. Working from ahardie up:
sorry but this is classic auditor language -- they have to add these caveats.

Techteam

That's what I thought. Thanks for the clarification. I think some of the other forum members are going to be harder to convince though. ;)

tech team 06-03-2008 18:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shin Gouki (Post 34501554)
If there is a complete Opt Out it will come at a price imo.

They are'nt going to let people just opt out without efing them over some way.

Hi Shin Gouki,

Just to reiterate, opt out is total opt out. Your internet experience will be as it is today. You'll still see ads but they will be untargeted and there won't be an additional layer of anti-fraud protection. There have been some questions posted about how our protection differs from existing offerings. Our offering is network based so it means no download for users. Users are warned in real time as they browse to fraudulent site and given the choice to continue or go to their homepage -- necessary if a user has clicked on a fraudulent email. We are not over claiming for our fraud protection -- it's another useful layer of protection for users that's free and protects in real time.

Techteam

brundles 06-03-2008 18:22

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501552)
Hi RizzyKing, Yes. Opt out is a total opt out. If you have opted out no browsing data will be passed from your ISP to phorm for any purposes. None at all. Let me know if you have any other questions.

Techteam

But to clarify that, it may not leave the ISP, but it WILL have been processed by Phorms servers and applications that are located on ISP premises connected up INSIDE the ISPs network.

Would that be accurate?

lucevans 06-03-2008 18:27

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501451)
You might be interested in the video piece on techcrunch today:
http://uk.techcrunch.com/2008/03/06/...ther-tracking/

No doubt it will raise as many questions as it answers. Mike (who started all the excellent debate in the first place) I'll drop you a line to see if you'd like to come in to see us or have a chat with our CEO or tech team.

Best wishes,
techteam (techteam@phorm.com)

Thanks for that link - I've just watched the video in it's entirety, and I would recommend others here to give it a whirl. I'm still not convinced as to the security of this system, but some of the information provided was interesting: questions about server locations, opt-outs and Mr. Ertugrul's past businesses were asked and answered (although he did look mightily nervous during some of it).
Some advice to the companies involved here: it was a BIG mistake to announce the deal to introduce this system and then leave a complete information vacuum until closer to roll-out time. People in the UK DO care about their privacy and security and it seems that someone, somewhere made an assumption that nobody would kick-up much of a fuss about this, so we don't need to trouble them with any details about how it will work or what it will do. WRONG!!

ahardie 06-03-2008 18:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34501571)
Some advice to the companies involved here: it was a BIG mistake to announce the deal to introduce this system and then leave a complete information vacuum until closer to roll-out time. People in the UK DO care about their privacy and security and it seems that someone, somewhere made an assumption that nobody would kick-up much of a fuss about this, so we don't need to trouble them with any details about how it will work or what it will do. WRONG!!

That's got to be one of the most sensible things I have read in this thread. They wouldn't have allayed everybody's fears but they could have cleared up a lot of the confusion.

Toto 06-03-2008 18:39

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Just waiting for some answers.

none 06-03-2008 18:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team
if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm

You say this, but come on now, we both know that’s deliberately ambiguous. Ive noticed you have neglected to answer not just on this board but others too, the question of what data gets passed TO and FROM Phorm once a user opts out (and believe me there will be plenty of them!).

Its fine saying that once opted out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm (i.e. returned data from a webpage) but what you don’t seem to want to answer is whether any data is SENT to Phorm in the first place (i.e. the initial request for said webpage)

So for example If I am opted out (via your lousy cookie), does any data sent FROM my machine go through Phorm systems or servers (at ANY stage) in order to load a web page, send an email or IM. It’s a simple enough question, but please be as technical as you like when replying.

Or >>

If opted out, does the data requested (FOR a webpage for example) bypass ALL Phorm technology and thus route itself ENTIRELY though my ISP’s servers only (just as it would be if you were not to exist).

Or (as I suspect) >>

Does some/any/all data sent FROM a user go through Phorm at some stage in order to REQUEST a web page, send an email or IM, even if the user is opted out.

In essence, what I'm asking is this, does OUTBOUND traffic still go through Phorm (at ANY stage) in order to reach it destination even if the user is opted out?



You see, to put it bluntly, I don’t trust you and so it would seem that over 95% of members who have voted here are also inclined to agree. In short WE DO NOT WANT OR NEED PHORM, not now not ever.

Dressing this up as of ‘benefit to the user’ under the guise of so called security is frankly insulting. So know this, I like many others will fight this to the bitter end, how ever long it takes.

Phight Phorm and take back what is rightfully yours...your privacy!

tech team 06-03-2008 18:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hi lucevans,

I do take the comments on the chin. We spent a long time preparing websites and flash animations and feeling like we really had an information hub about our systems and products. We didn't get enough information out there (here, for example).

I should stress it has nothing to do with complacency about how people feel about their privacy. Quite the contrary. We spent a long time developing technology, systems and practices that are acutely privacy friendly so we're very happy to have the opportunity to explain that and engage.

Best wishes

techteam

---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:48 ----------

No. If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.

Mick 06-03-2008 18:52

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34501594)

<SNIP>

none, whilst you are entitled to your opinions so is everyone else and Phorm have been given the oportunity to answer questions and I expect questions to be asked in a sensible and amicable manner.

SMHarman 06-03-2008 18:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Could you provide system diagrams and show who's hardware, software, data exchanges occur, opted in and out for say the an input to googles search page of
John Doe, 1 Main Street, Anywhereville, 90210, or the same input to FT.com search box (who I believe is opted in to OIX).

lucevans 06-03-2008 18:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Sorry - just one more question, having read your revised FAQs on www.webwise.com -

Given that I have blocked all communication with OIX.net at router-level am I correct in following assumptions:
1) No Phorm/webwise/OIX-related cookie containing a randomly-generated anonymous user ID can possibly be stored on my computer
2) When I request webpages over the VM network, the Phorm hardware in the VM network still analyzes the content of the pages I request, but because my computer does not contain an anonymous ID cookie, the Phorm or VM hardware is unable to save any category information to the Phorm server (in the VM network) because it does not have an anonymous ID to assign them to.
3) Therefore, there will be no anonymous user ID record on the VM or Phorm servers related to the content of any pages my computer has requested over the VM network.

Sirius 06-03-2008 18:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Can i have it in writing by your company that NONE of my data if i OPT OUT will EVER be seen by you or your agents or your customers or infact anyone connected in any way with your company. or you equipment in the head-ends and pop sites of VIRGIN MEDIA and that Virgin Media will NEVER see any of my browsing or other private information if i OPT OUT.. Also for HOW long does the OPT OUT last. ?????

Finally you tried this without informing any of the poor BT customers last year. How can we trust you when you have done this without informing people and giving them the chance to OPT OUT. You were court doing this last year by users of BT. ????

Shin Gouki 06-03-2008 18:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I want to be able to completely opt out of this and use VM BB like phorm does'nt even exist.

I want nothing to with Phorm!

If this does'nt happen then i will leave VM and never use any other Virgin product ever again!

flowrebmit 06-03-2008 19:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
How does the Phorm technology embedded within the ISPs network not see the IP address of each customer when it analyzes the TCP/IP packets of data?

none 06-03-2008 19:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
QUESTION: It’s stated that opt out works by the presence of a cookie, therefore how can people who chose not to allow persistent cookies opt out?

Furthermore, the Data Protection Act gives consumers a clear right to dictate how their personal information is used, (beyond data processing necessary in providing the service to the user) by expressing their preferences in writing to the Data Controller of their ISP.

QUESTION: How will Phorm detect where people have, under provisions of the Data Protection Act, written to the Data Controller of their ISP expressly withdrawing permission to process their personal data?

tech team 06-03-2008 19:23

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hello Toto,

We would be very happy to have our systems undergo a privacy audit by E&Y or another auditor in the UK. We are in the middle of a Privacy Impact Assessment (for info on PIA please see the Information Commissioner Office site: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...l/1-intro.html which is being conducted by Simon Davies (80/20 Thinking / Privacy International) and we will work with him and his team throughout the year to ensure we adhere to the highest standards of privacy.

I think that our involvement in adware is an issue for some people. However we fully stand by everything we did in that business. We quickly realised however, that it was near-impossible for people to distinguish between adware and spyware and that we did not want to continue in the desktop area. We made the unprecedented move of then voluntarily shutting down that business model, which was worth $5-6 million a year to us, in order to pursue an ISP model.

We realise that some people will not accept that as an explanation. But we also believe there are enough people out there who recognise that technology innovation is about change, trying stuff out, getting it wrong and trying again until you get it right. And we feel that our solution today is really right -- and a big leap forward for privacy.

---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ----------

Yes Shin Gouki, you can permanently opt out and your internet experience will be exactly as it is now.

Best wishes

Techteam

Mick 06-03-2008 19:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I don't know how long tech team has left to answer any questions but those that still have a question that needs answering - I will be collecting such questions and forwarding them to Phorm to answer via e-mail. Once received, I will post back their replies here. So if you haven't got an answer yet, I will try my best to get you one from Phorm. Thanks. Let's really try to keep this a civil debate. Ranting and demanding answers will not get anyone anywhere.

Also - Please try not to ask a question that has already been answered. One question that seems to be being repeated is the Opt out having no data tracked. To clarify, Phorms word is that no tracking is carried out if customers have chosen to opt out.

Sirius 06-03-2008 19:33

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501673)
I don't know how long tech team has left to answer any questions but those that still have a question that needs answering - I will be collecting such questions and forwarding them to Phorm to answer via e-mail. Once received, I will post back their replies here. So if you haven't got an answer yet, I will try my best to get you one from Phorm. Thanks. Let's really try to keep this a civil debate. Ranting and demanding answers will not get anyone anywhere.

Also - Please try not to ask a question that has already been answered. One question that seems to be being repeated is the Opt out having no data tracked. To clarify, Phorms word is that no tracking is carried out if customers have chosen to opt out.

Mick i understand what you say. I need to know at what point it stops. IE me or the kit. Because if its the kit then i am still being tracked.

Mick 06-03-2008 19:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34501677)
Mick i understand what you say. I need to know at what point it stops. IE me or the kit. Because if its the kit then i am still being tracked.

:tu:

none 06-03-2008 20:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34501677)
Mick i understand what you say. I need to know at what point it stops. IE me or the kit. Because if its the kit then i am still being tracked.

indeed.

they say you opt out and your data no longer passes through Phorm at any stage, yet i read elsewhere that just is'nt the case - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/05/bt_phorm_trial/
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Williams
However, according to a spokesman for Phorm, the way the opt-out works means the contents of the websites you visit will still be mirrored to its system

Just sounds like we are being played as chumps, though thats my own personnel opinion.



Its also been mentioned here (first post, top of page) - http://community.plus.net/forum/inde...opic=61201.112
Quote:

Originally Posted by MysteryFCM
This isn't actually true ....... whilst Phorm hardware exists on the ISP's network, the browsing data and everything else going to/from your computer, is passed to the central Phorm servers (located OUTSIDE of the ISP's network).

Additionally, you may want to mention to them that it's been pointed out time and time again that opted out or not, everything going from/to your computer, is still logged by the Phorm servers (just as it's always been logged by the ISP's servers (contrary to their claims)).

which is why I was so very very specific in my simplistic wording of my original question relating to what data gets passed to Phorm.

So you'll will have to excuse my skepticism to the answers we've received so far as they have in no way made me feel any better about this whole affair.

Florence 06-03-2008 20:08

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I use a browser that allows me to block adverts on websites also blocks popups.. I chose my firewall /virus killer to help protect my privacy.
Quote:

Stopping Malware in its Tracks

ESET Smart Security prevents, detects and removes malware such as adware, bots, rootkits, spyware, Trojans, viruses, worms and other Internet threats you face on the job, at home and everywhere your computer goes.
Proactive Protection: Award winning Threatsense technology combines multiple layers of detection protecting you from internet threats before it's too late. The included antispam and personal firewall features provide you with a total security solution.
If I decide I want to buy over the internet I like to search research and select the best option for me.

From all I have read and I have been reading a lot I also listened to the video from the CEO, I feel from all that is being said is trying to convince us we all need this phorm.... I feel this is more an invasion of my privacy, my freedom of choice and human rights. Phorm is offering under the disguise of protection targeted adverts... You say you give a random number then target adverts to this on my browsing habits... Your system could end up giving more false adverts than correct biased on what people use the internet for.

I moderate a busy forum in this role i sometimes search to help members with problems, source equipment for best deals. not for me personally just to help out on the forum.

Phorm would then target me with all sorts of unwanted adverts due to this browsing which in turn would get annoying to time the customer.

1. What guarantees can you give us VM customers that this will not happen?

2, Why is it classed as security when all you are really doing is gathering information to send us adverts?

3. If this was only security then why will VM earn money from this instead of paying for this?

Sirius 06-03-2008 20:08

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34501703)
indeed.

they say you opt out and your data no longer passes through Phorm at any stage, yet i read elsewhere that just aint the case - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/05/bt_phorm_trial/

Just sounds like we are being played as chumps, though that's my own personnel opinion.



Its also been mentioned here that (first post, top of page) - http://community.plus.net/forum/inde...opic=61201.112

which is why I was so very very specific in my simplistic wording of my original question relating to what data gets passed to Phorm.

So you'll will have to excuse my skepticism to the answers we've received so far as they have in no way made me feel any better about this whole affair.

That's why i don't think i will get a straight answer if any. If i do it will be a carefully worded pile of spin.

Having had a pc infected in the past with what they like to spin as adware in fact it was Spyware according to the Norton software that tried to remove it. I don't want there software anywhere near my pc or its connection.

If i don't get a answer i will take it as a confirmation that even when OPTED OUT my data WILL be tracked but i just will not see the adds. I will then disconnect all my service to VM and get a bt phone line, Sky TV and BE for my Internet. That's a lot of money that Virgin Will lose from me. I think it will be more than what they would have made selling my private information to Phorm. aka 121 media

none 06-03-2008 20:21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34501717)
That's why i don't think i will get a straight answer if any. If i do it will be a carefully worded pile of spin.

Exactly.
Do people honestly think they will get a straight answer from a company that has a proven track record in the spyware making game?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34501717)
If i don't get a answer i will take it as a confirmation that even when OPTED OUT my data WILL be tracked but i just will not see the adds.

That is exactly my thoughts, even when your opted out, your still in, you just won’t see target ads, but you will however still be owned by Phorm.

RizzyKing 06-03-2008 20:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Having read some other articles mentioned on this thread i am sorry i don't believe what phorm is saying thier track record doesn't give me any reason to have trust in them. As such i return to my previous position if VM do this they lose me as a customer.

It is bad enough this system is even being contemplated but fobbing off people with talk of an extra layer of security is dishonest. I have stayed with this thread and will continue to do so but i will not comment anymore as there is nothing left for me personally now but to wait and see what happens and then act accordingly.

Sirius 06-03-2008 21:01

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I would like to say thank you to Phorm for answering my main question by running away from it :clap::clap::clap::clap:.

As soon as i now receive that letter saying that Virgin will be selling my info to a SPYWARE company I will exercise my 30 days notice :tu:

Well Done Phorm

---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34501762)
Having read some other articles mentioned on this thread i am sorry i don't believe what phorm is saying thier track record doesn't give me any reason to have trust in them. As such i return to my previous position if VM do this they lose me as a customer.

It is bad enough this system is even being contemplated but fobbing off people with talk of an extra layer of security is dishonest. I have stayed with this thread and will continue to do so but i will not comment anymore as there is nothing left for me personally now but to wait and see what happens and then act accordingly.

Yep well said. There is nothing now other than moving my service to a non Spyware laden ISP.

none 06-03-2008 21:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Should have also mentioned that right here on this very board they said that
Quote:

“If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.”
Mmm yes clear... clear as mud.



See here (comment 15) - http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php
Quote:

Kevin H said:
March 6, 2008 6:03 PM | permalink
Phorm admits that even if you opt out, they still receive all of your browsing habits, the cookie simply tells them not to use it.
YOU SIMPLY CANNOT take on face value what this company tells you.

Im with Sirius and RizzyKing, VM introduce this, then I too will be acting accordingly.

TheBruce1 06-03-2008 21:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team
I think that our involvement in adware is an issue for some people. However we fully stand by everything we did in that business. We quickly realised however, that it was near-impossible for people to distinguish between adware and spyware and that we did not want to continue in the desktop area. We made the unprecedented move of then voluntarily shutting down that business model, which was worth $5-6 million a year to us, in order to pursue an ISP model.

Unbelievable, what about the people who had the misfortune to have the Apropos Rootkit installed by 121Media now called Phorm, looks like your still in the spyware game.

As others have stated, you have failed to answer the question regarding the cookie, will this still be on my or any other users machine, even if i(and i will)opt out.

For Phorm and the ISP`s this is about money and greed, nothing more.

Mick 06-03-2008 21:23

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hmm - Telegraph news item says we should put up with Phorm or expect higher prices?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected...dltrack108.xml

Please someone correct me if its not saying that at all ... :erm:

SMHarman 06-03-2008 21:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34501778)
Should have also mentioned that right here on this very board they said that

Quote:

“If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear.”
Mmm yes clear... clear as mud.

See here (comment 15) - http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

YOU SIMPLY CANNOT take on face value what this company tells you.

Im with Sirius and RizzyKing, VM introduce this, then I too will be acting accordingly.

Maybe hiding behind smoke and mirrors here but could this equally read?

“If you are not part of the system ie opted out data will be processed by VM using phorm code on specific media farm hardware located in the UK on VM premises, however none of this data will then be passed to phorm to enable then to serve back advertising through OIX.”
Just a thought.
Equally I am typing this using a dell computer running microsoft XP and MSIE. In making this posting no data is being processed by microsoft or Dell but this posting could not happen without microsoft code being involved.

none 06-03-2008 21:30

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick
Hmm - Telegraph news item says we should put up with Phorm or expect higher prices?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected...dltrack108.xml

Please someone correct me if its not saying that at all ...

Its certainly hinting at that.

But you could give me a 20MB or even the new 50MB pipe for free, subsidized by the op-in of Phorm and I'd still walk away.

Would I be prepared to pay more for a Phorm-free ISP? You betchya!

Sirius 06-03-2008 21:32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501801)
Hmm - Telegraph news item says we should put up with Phorm or expect higher prices?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected...dltrack108.xml

Please someone correct me if its not saying that at all ... :erm:

Thats how i read it.

Btw Mick


Thanks for allowing us to expose the spin that is Phorm and VirginMedia. I did not expect them to run away that fast :LOL:

eddcase 06-03-2008 21:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Can I ask when all this is to start please?

none 06-03-2008 21:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SMHarman (Post 34501805)
Maybe hiding behind smoke and mirrors here but could this equally read?

“If you are not part of the system ie opted out data will be processed by VM using phorm code on specific media farm hardware located in the UK on VM premises, however none of this data will then be passed to phorm to enable then to serve back advertising through OIX.” code being involved.

good point, which is why i originally asked
Quote:

Originally Posted by none
So for example If I am opted out (via your lousy cookie), does any data sent FROM my machine go through Phorm systems or servers (at ANY stage) in order to load a web page, send an email or IM. It’s a simple enough question, but please be as technical as you like when replying.

emphisis on the 'Phorm systems or servers (at ANY stage)' part, to which they replied
Quote:

If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm
that reply wouldn't be quite so quite truthful now if what you (SMHarman) said were correct.

Toto 06-03-2008 21:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501801)
Hmm - Telegraph news item says we should put up with Phorm or expect higher prices?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected...dltrack108.xml

Please someone correct me if its not saying that at all ... :erm:

Which is exactly what I have been saying in this thread.

We may not like this system, but the margins are so tight, we may have no choice. Although..........VM's margins are better than others.

isf 06-03-2008 21:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
The issue isn't the ads, it's the harvesting of clickstream data and a cookie isn't cutting it. Multiple HTTP clients across multiple computers makes for a hell of an opt-out procedure. I looked at the webwise opt-out page and it uses javascript to set the cookie, that's neither guaranteed to be enabled or even supported (netsurf, dillo, lynx etc..) and there's issues for other client software like wget and curl.

Since techteam/phorm claim this is network level technology, why is the opt-out not handled per subscriber at the network level by the ISP?

Mick 06-03-2008 21:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34501811)
Thats how i read it.

Btw Mick


Thanks for allowing us to expose the spin that is Phorm and VirginMedia. I did not expect them to run away that fast :LOL:

Virgin Media played no part in Phorm coming here as far as I know, there has been no contact from them and to be fair you cannot expect someone to be still answering questions at 8 'o' Clock in the evening if they work office hours 9 - 5.

I respect the fact and understand that there is anger, even I am angry but we have to at least give people a chance to have their say. But if we start to get hostile or start demanding this, this or this. It doesn't get anywhere.

none 06-03-2008 21:50

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by isf (Post 34501826)
Since techteam/phorm claim this is network level technology, why is the opt-out not handled per subscriber at the network level by the ISP?

That is a bloody good question and should defiantly be one of the questions directed to their tech team :tu:

Sirius 06-03-2008 21:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501828)
Virgin Media played no part in Phorm coming here as far as I know, there has been no contact from them and to be fair you cannot expect someone to be still answering questions at 8 'o' Clock in the evening if they work office hours 9 - 5.

I respect the fact and understand that there is anger, even I am angry but we have to at least give people a chance to have their say. But if we start to get hostile or start demanding this, this or this. It doesn't get anywhere.

Mick

I appreciate what you tried to do here honest. I just hate being taken for a ride by a company that i have had dealings with before when it comes to their spy-ware. I lost a lot of data due to the infection they gave me.

Mick 06-03-2008 22:05

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34501833)
Mick

I appreciate what you tried to do here honest. I just hate being taken for a ride by a company that i have had dealings with before when it comes to their spy-ware. I lost a lot of data due to the infection they gave me.

I know but there has to be at least some credit shown for having the balls to come and face the public head on esp on here - Look at it this way. I have been banging on at Virgin/ntl for years to come and have someone answer posts in an official capacity on here, they always keep telling me it cannot be done etc.

In a sane world, it shouldn't be Phorm coming here telling us what is happening - Phorm is not our ISP - Virgin Media is and they should be explaining things regarding setups their end. Agree? :cool:

Sirius 06-03-2008 22:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501836)
I know but there has to be at least some credit shown for having the balls to come and face the public head on esp on here - Look at it this way. I have been banging on at Virgin/ntl for years to come and have someone answer posts in an official capacity on here, they always keep telling me it cannot be done etc.

In a sane world, it shouldn't be Phorm coming here telling us what is happening - Phorm is not our ISP - Virgin Media is and they should be explaining things regarding setups their end. Agree? :cool:

Fully agree and thats why VM will not be my ISP soon.

none 06-03-2008 22:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501836)
I know but there has to be at least some credit shown for having the balls to come and face the public head on esp on here

Dont be so quick to give credit.

They come here because its in their own selfish interest to do so, nothing more. By trying to appease the angry crowd, they hope less users will leave their ISP. This matters because if there were a mass boycott of all things Phorm, their business model is gone as no ISP will then touch them for fear of losing customers.

markt50 06-03-2008 22:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Even I agree that it shows some bottle for them to come on here and I have to give them respect for that. A part of me thinks that this is a combination of a misunderstanding of the technology combined with some bad initial communication on Phorms part. It seems this has caught them on the hop a bit.

It doesn't mean I'm any happier about what Phorm does, and I'm definately to yet be convinced by their arguments, my stance is that I will still be looking for a new ISP and telling anyone else who cares to do the same thing because I'm just as angry at Virgin for the way it looks like they are allowing it to be implemented (i.e. the default of being opted in).

Mick 06-03-2008 22:32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34501840)
They come here because its in their own selfish interest to do so, nothing more. By trying to appease the angry crowd, they hope less users will leave their ISP.
This matters because if there were a mass boycott of all things Phorm, their business model is gone as no ISP will then touch them for fear of losing customers.

We all want answers but there are ways and means to getting them, being aggressive isn't one of them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by markt50 (Post 34501842)

It doesn't mean I'm any happier about what Phorm does, and I'm definately to yet be convinced by their arguments, my stance is that I will still be looking for a new ISP and telling anyone else who cares to do the same thing because I'm just as angry at Virgin for the way it looks like they are allowing it to be implemented (i.e. the default of being opted in).

Fully agree - I think we need a nail hit on head smiley. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by eddcase (Post 34501820)
Can I ask when all this is to start please?

Coming Soon. i.e No official date for implementation as far as Virgin Media is concerned.

none 06-03-2008 22:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501846)
We all want answers but there are ways and means to getting them, being aggressive isn't one of them.

Sorry you feel that way. Was simply stating my case, forcefully. Though your entitled to think what you think.

I've watched and read their woolly replies on many other sites and wasn't prepared to sit back and see the same thing happen here.

But I stand by what I said before, you cannot take what they say at face value. Every time I read one of their replies I feel like I'm being lied to, cant help it, thats just the way I feel.


Quote:

Originally Posted by eddcase
Can I ask when all this is to start please?

that really is the million dollar question. I guess we will know more when we get that letter from VM telling us about this 'great new security service' we are about to force cough i mean give you the option of using.

Mick 06-03-2008 22:45

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34501850)

But I stand by what I said before, you cannot take what they say at face value. Every time I read one of their replies I feel like I'm being lied to, cant help it, thats just the way I feel.

Yeah and you're entitled to feel like that but let others decide for themselves.

Shaun 06-03-2008 22:50

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have two questions that I don't think have been covered:-

1) Are the ads specifically targeted at the cookie in your browser? If my Nan uses one PC in the house and I use the other will her cookery related surfing affect the ads served to me?
2) Can the opt out be done on an IP/account basis? If I want to opt out of the service I assume I'm not going to have to opt out in every browser on every PC that use my IP?

---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:45 ----------

Just thought of a third:

3) How are you going to prove to your advertisers how efficient your product is if you don't track any data on it? How can you tell how many ABC1s you've reached and how on earth can you set a tariff with your buyers without this data?

lucevans 06-03-2008 22:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun (Post 34501855)
I have two questions that I don't think have been covered:-

1) Are the ads specifically targeted at the cookie in your browser? If my Nan uses one PC in the house and I use the other will her cookery related surfing affect the ads served to me?

Yes they are, and no they won't.
Quote:

2) Can the opt out be done on an IP/account basis? If I want to opt out of the service I assume I'm not going to have to opt out in every browser on every PC that use my IP?
No it can't, and yes, you will.

none 06-03-2008 23:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34501853)
Yeah and you're entitled to feel like that but let others decide for themselves.

I thought that was the whole point of this thread, to express your feelings about this Phorm system. Weather they be positive or negative.

Others will decide for themselves, free choice, no gun to the head, so why say "let others decide for themselves". What has that got to do with me? I'm merely voicing an opinion.

feel free to PM me rather than post back here in this thread.

pigpen 06-03-2008 23:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34501859)
No it can't, and yes, you will.

What about the previously mentioned advice of blocking the cookie from oix.net? If you have a router capable of blocking access to domains then you would be covered for any machine that connected to your home network.

isf 06-03-2008 23:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

1) Are the ads specifically targeted at the cookie in your browser? If my Nan uses one PC in the house and I use the other will her cookery related surfing affect the ads served to me?
Quote:

Yes they are, and no they won't.

Which is fine unless users are sharing a single user account and browser profile.

Quote:

2) Can the opt out be done on an IP/account basis? If I want to opt out of the service I assume I'm not going to have to opt out in every browser on every PC that use my IP?
Quote:

No it can't, and yes, you will.

diagrams The bigger question is, why would the ISP even do packet inspection on every request instead of simply creating a VLAN trunk (or equiv) to bypass the system for those who opted out?

I'm cooked :beer: but there's some reading material here

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------

Quote:

What about the previously mentioned advice of blocking the cookie from oix.net? If you have a router capable of blocking access to domains then you would be covered for any machine that connected to your home network.
It's an opt out system, no cookie and phorm get your clickstream. See the register article (with diagrams) I linked above.

lucevans 06-03-2008 23:21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pigpen (Post 34501869)
What about the previously mentioned advice of blocking the cookie from oix.net? If you have a router capable of blocking access to domains then you would be covered for any machine that connected to your home network.

Yes...I hope that'll work - my router is already configured to block OIX.net.

MovedGoalPosts 06-03-2008 23:25

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I'd prefer that the Phorm system didn't exist and wasn't to be used. It is good to see that they are at least trying stand up and be counted, even if so far we're not convinced by the arguments.

My real beef however is that I don't have a contract with Phorm. I have a contract with Virgin Media and it is thus my ISP that should be justifying to me as their customer, what they are up to. My ISP shouldn't be hiding behind their supplier's coat tails.

lucevans 06-03-2008 23:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by isf (Post 34501870)
Which is fine unless users are sharing a single user account and browser profile.



diagrams The bigger question is, why would the ISP even do packet inspection on every request instead of simply creating a VLAN trunk (or equiv) to bypass the system for those who opted out?

I'm cooked :beer: but there's some reading material here

---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ----------


It's an opt out system, no cookie and phorm get your clickstream. See the register article (with diagrams) I linked above.

In no way am I trying to defend Phorm, but if you've never allowed the cookie that contains your unique "anonymyzed random ID number" onto your hard drive, how will they know which ID record on their server to add your browsing behaviour categories to? In other words, how will they know which anonymous user is requesting the webpages you are viewing? They claim to only store 3 types of data - Your anonymous ID number, category tags and timestamps for the date/time you viewed pages containing those categories. They also claim that there is no overlap between Phorm's data system and your ISP's identifiable data about you (such as your IP address, your modem's MAC address, your name, your VM account No., etc.) so if they're not lying, without that anonymous ID number, they've got no way of knowing which user record to assign your page categories to.
Now, if we assume they are cheating, lying, underhand b*****ds, and plan to aggregate data on even those people who have opted out by blocking oix.net cookies, they would have to identify your browsing record on their server using some other unique identifier which could be positively tied to your connection's clickdata - and that, presumably, would have to be one of those personally-identifiable pieces of data from your ISP that they claim not to have access to. If it turned-out they were doing this, not only would they be in deep trouble, so would Virgin for supplying them with that personally-identifiable information. Probably to the tune of bankruptcy once class action law suits and regulator fines had been accounted for. Not even Virgin Media are that stupid.
(And I still don't want this damned system...)

none 06-03-2008 23:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34501886)
In no way am I trying to defend Phorm, but if you've never allowed the cookie that contains your unique "anonymyzed random ID number" onto your hard drive, how will they know which ID record on their server to add your browsing behaviour categories to? In other words, how will they know which anonymous user is requesting the webpages you are viewing? They claim to only store 3 types of data - Your anonymous ID number, category tags and timestamps for the date/time you viewed pages containing those categories. They also claim that there is no overlap between Phorm's data system and your ISP's identifiable data about you (such as your IP address, your modem's MAC address, your name, your VM account No., etc.) so if they're not lying, without that anonymous ID number, they've got no way of knowing which user record to assign your page categories to.
(And I still don't want this damned system...)

That is actually a very good question, and one that I've been pondering myself now for a few hours. After all what would be the point of an optout cookie, if having no unique anonymyzed random ID cookie achieves the same thing.

Perhaps this could be another question to put to their tech team?

lucevans 06-03-2008 23:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34501895)
Perhaps this could be another question to put to their tech team?

:tu:

isf 07-03-2008 00:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34501886)
They claim to only store 3 types of data - Your anonymous ID number, category tags and timestamps for the date/time you viewed pages containing those categories. They also claim that there is no overlap between Phorm's data system and your ISP's identifiable data about you (such as your IP address, your modem's MAC address, your name, your VM account No., etc.) so if they're not lying, without that anonymous ID number, they've got no way of knowing which user record to assign your page categories to.

:) So why have they developed a ridiculous cookie based opt-out system that sends this info to their anonymizer instead of having the opt-out at the ISP/network level? This is pretty much the question I've been asking.

Julian Smart 07-03-2008 00:08

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tech team (Post 34501655)
We realise that some people will not accept that as an explanation. But we also believe there are enough people out there who recognise that technology innovation is about change, trying stuff out, getting it wrong and trying again until you get it right. And we feel that our solution today is really right -- and a big leap forward for privacy.
Techteam

Spot on, TechTeam. Sometimes you can't let users dictate how new technologies and ideas are applied - it's going to affect the bottom line. My own company, SchaftU, is just coming out of stealth mode and may I humbly say that we've modelled ourselves on forward-looking tech companies like yourselves. I hope I'm not giving too much away (to the Police) when I say that we're looking at a number of major high street banks and offering their customers an exciting new opportunity to reassign their assets using our patent-pending BankJob technology. Now, it's possible that when we have implemented this across the specific vaults targetted for trials going forward, that some of the more vocal customers will complain - there are always a few - but we think when we've got the publicity right, paid for some studies, and tweaked our processes, then we'll get the buy-in we need. The point is, don't let unproductive discussion, outdated ethics and premature dialogue with the end user get in the way of inevitable technological progress. If I may, I'd like to elevate the philosophy you yourselves have expressed to a slogan that all forward-looking technology companies should take to heart -

"Just try it out and get it wrong."

Three cheers for this great leap forward in privacy! I can't wait for my family to share the joke when they're served ads related to my porn surfing! Classic. You guys are a ray of light in our otherwise poorly-profiled and inadequately-targeted lives.

MD, SchaftU Enterprises

none 07-03-2008 00:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Julian Smart (Post 34501912)
Spot on, TechTeam. Sometimes you can't let users dictate how new technologies and ideas are applied - it's going to affect the bottom line. My own company, SchaftU, is just coming out of stealth mode and may I humbly say that we've modelled ourselves on forward-looking tech companies like yourselves. I hope I'm not giving too much away (to the Police) when I say that we're looking at a number of major high street banks and offering their customers an exciting new opportunity to reassign their assets using our patent-pending BankJob technology. Now, it's possible that when we have implemented this across the specific vaults targetted for trials going forward, that some of the more vocal customers will complain - there are always a few - but we think when we've got the publicity right, paid for some studies, and tweaked our processes, then we'll get the buy-in we need. The point is, don't let unproductive discussion, outdated ethics and premature dialogue with the end user get in the way of inevitable technological progress. If I may, I'd like to elevate the philosophy you yourselves have expressed to a slogan that all forward-looking technology companies should take to heart -

"Just try it out and get it wrong."

Three cheers for this great leap forward in privacy! I can't wait for my family to share the joke when they're served ads related to my porn surfing! Classic. You guys are a ray of light in our otherwise poorly-profiled and inadequately-targeted lives.

MD, SchaftU Enterprises

quite possibly the best reply in the thread :D

Anonymouse 07-03-2008 00:35

FAO Mods
 
I repeat my earlier question to the mods: have you told anyone at Virgin about the general feeling on this board (if they don't know already)? What was/is their response?

I will keep repeating that question until I/we get an answer, because we need to know what they think. Before I/we do anything drastic such as changing ISP, I/we need information on which to base an informed decision - and I do not mean the spin we're currently getting. One way or another, I for one want the TRUTH about what the hell's going on! Are we supposed to believe that Virgin Media's so hard-up they need a company like Phorm to inject some cash into 'em? Come on!

Hang on, I've just thought of an apposite quote (from Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon):

In any agenda, political or otherwise, there is a cost to be borne. Always ask what it is, and who will be paying. If you don't, the agenda-makers will pick up the perfume of your silence like swamp panthers on the scent of blood, and the next thing you know, the person expected to bear the cost will be you. And you may not have what it takes to pay.

So: what, really, is the agenda here? Who's paying (us, most likely)? In what coin?

And can we afford it?

Myself, I don't think so. Nor do I see why we should have to. This is not what we signed up for.

fizgog 07-03-2008 00:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Not read all the posts, so sorry if it's been brought up before but could you do the following: -

Use the internet through a secure vpn tunnel to say an office server.

lucevans 07-03-2008 01:05

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by isf (Post 34501910)
:) So why have they developed a ridiculous cookie based opt-out system that sends this info to their anonymizer instead of having the opt-out at the ISP/network level? This is pretty much the question I've been asking.

Wait for it...their answer to this question is pure genius...."The opt-out cannot be done at ISP level, because that would require us to know your IP address, and by the very nature of the Phorm system, we cannot know that." So now you know! Here's a thought: instead, why not just get Virgin Media to pull out the wires that they plan to connect between my cable modem and Phorm's hardware? That'd work.:D

isf 07-03-2008 01:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fizgog (Post 34501937)
Not read all the posts, so sorry if it's been brought up before but could you do the following: -

Use the internet through a secure vpn tunnel to say an office server.

Yes, or proxy/ssh forward through a hosted VM etc... For most people it'll be cheaper to switch ISP.

Florence 07-03-2008 01:11

Re: FAO Mods
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Anonymouse (Post 34501925)
I repeat my earlier question to the mods: have you told anyone at Virgin about the general feeling on this board (if they don't know already)? What was/is their response?

I will keep repeating that question until I/we get an answer, because we need to know what they think. Before I/we do anything drastic such as changing ISP, I/we need information on which to base an informed decision - and I do not mean the spin we're currently getting. One way or another, I for one want the TRUTH about what the hell's going on! Are we supposed to believe that Virgin Media's so hard-up they need a company like Phorm to inject some cash into 'em? Come on!

Hang on, I've just thought of an apposite quote (from Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon):

In any agenda, political or otherwise, there is a cost to be borne. Always ask what it is, and who will be paying. If you don't, the agenda-makers will pick up the perfume of your silence like swamp panthers on the scent of blood, and the next thing you know, the person expected to bear the cost will be you. And you may not have what it takes to pay.

So: what, really, is the agenda here? Who's paying (us, most likely)? In what coin?

And can we afford it?

Myself, I don't think so. Nor do I see why we should have to. This is not what we signed up for.

:clap: :clap: :clap:

I was going to email a link to this thread but seems Cablefoeum disable this feature, it works on our forums and sending emails to Ben has normally brought replies to or offers of help for the member.

I need to know for sure since I am totally against having advertisements targeted to me... If/when I decide to buy somethung I like to do my own checks source my own products and find where has the best offer. Not some company paying Phorm to plug their adverts on me...

isf 07-03-2008 01:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34501940)
Wait for it...their answer to this question is sheer genius...."The opt-out cannot be done at ISP level, because that would require us to know your IP address, and by the very nature of the Phorm system, we cannot know that." So now you know! Here's a thought: instead, why not just get Virgin Media to pull out the wires that they plan to connect between my cable modem and Phorm's hardware? That'd work.

Exactly :D That's a crock of phorm right there, it wouldn't require they know anything, not even that a user had opted out. Instead customers have to opt out on every browser on every machine and even then phorm could still potentially get the request data :confused:

Out of interest, does anyone know how much revenue the phorm deal is likely to generate for VM monthly per user?

lucevans 07-03-2008 01:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Here's one of the FAQs quoted from www.webwise.com (Phorm's consumer portal);

"Q. Is my data still viewed when I opt out of the system?

A. When you opt out -- or switch the system off -- it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear: the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out, websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be ads from the Phorm service and they will not be more relevant to your browsing."

This statement is inconsistent.

First it assures us that no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. (I suspect that the use of the word "Phorm" here does not refer to the servers that Phorm have installed inside the ISP, but rather to the company itself)

Then it says that the Phorm servers are located inside the ISP network.

Then it tells us that Browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP.

Well, if the Phorm servers are inside the ISP, then data doesn't have to be passed outside the ISP in order to be transmitted to the Phorm Servers, does it?
So do they mean that no browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside OR outside the ISP,
or do they mean that browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside the ISP, but not to any Phorm server outside the ISP?

I suspect the latter, and if this is the case, then as far as I'm concerned, the webpages I'm viewing are still being "analyzed" (i.e. spied upon).

---------- Post added at 00:51 ---------- Previous post was at 00:45 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by isf (Post 34501945)
Out of interest, does anyone know how much revenue the phorm deal is likely to generate for VM monthly per user?

Well in the case of this user, £0.00
I've never clicked on an ad on a webpage in my life, and I'm sure as hell not going to start now...

Grimpy 07-03-2008 02:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Not sure if this has been posted?

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

IvIaXiIvIuS 07-03-2008 02:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by isf (Post 34501945)
Out of interest, does anyone know how much revenue the phorm deal is likely to generate for VM monthly per user?

No but BT will net about £85 mil from it in 2 years time.:erm:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...p_advertising/

__________________________________________________ ______
Edit below
__________________________________________________ ______
Just had a thought,phorm states that no user information is kept yet they have need for a data protection department and on there own privacy report it says "you have the right to request a copy of any information that Phorm may have about you and to have any inaccuracies corrected."
Plus later in the same paragraph "We will use reasonable efforts to supply, correct or delete any information about you that Phorm may have."
I know businesses have to have some data protection policy now days regarding customer protection,but for a company that "is designed to avoid collection of any Personally Identifiable Information(PII) of the user" makes me even more suspicious of what actual data they keep on my habits

http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/policy_services.php

Sirius 07-03-2008 05:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34501940)
why not just get Virgin Media to pull out the wires that they plan to connect between my cable modem and Phorm's hardware? That'd work.:D

That's what i intend to do.

none 07-03-2008 09:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34501949)
Here's one of the FAQs quoted from www.webwise.com (Phorm's consumer portal);

"Q. Is my data still viewed when I opt out of the system?

A. When you opt out -- or switch the system off -- it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear: the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out, websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be ads from the Phorm service and they will not be more relevant to your browsing."

This statement is inconsistent.

First it assures us that no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. (I suspect that the use of the word "Phorm" here does not refer to the servers that Phorm have installed inside the ISP, but rather to the company itself)

Then it says that the Phorm servers are located inside the ISP network.

Then it tells us that Browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP.

Well, if the Phorm servers are inside the ISP, then data doesn't have to be passed outside the ISP in order to be transmitted to the Phorm Servers, does it?
So do they mean that no browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside OR outside the ISP,
or do they mean that browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside the ISP, but not to any Phorm server outside the ISP?

I suspect the latter, and if this is the case, then as far as I'm concerned, the webpages I'm viewing are still being "analyzed" (i.e. spied upon).

You ask a simple intelligent question.

Personally, I think that they know our data will reach Phorm systems/servers at some point in the chain but they do not want to admit that as people will (rightfully or wrongfully) view that as spying. So what we get are carefully worded replies to help avoid giving the answers they do not want to give. In other words, they give some of what you want to hear, just not all of it. Politicians are especially good at this.

I have noticed their responses on other sites/blogs are extremely well considered and deliberately ambiguous in places where detailed answers are required.

The way in which their system will work appears (at least to me) to be carefully guarded and as such I suspect we will never really truly know to what extent it reaches. We can and will ask questions (as is our right to) but I do not think we will get sufficient answers.

At the end of the day, how can you really trust a company that has made its previous fortunes in generating spyware.

Sirius 07-03-2008 09:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34502054)
You ask a simple intelligent question.

Personally, I think that they know our data will reach Phorm systems/servers at some point in the chain but they do not want to admit that as people will (rightfully or wrongfully) view that as spying. So what we get are carefully worded replies to help avoid giving the answers they do not want to give. In other words, they give some of what you want to hear, just not all of it. Politicians are especially good at this.

I have noticed their responses on other sites/blogs are extremely well considered and deliberately ambiguous in places where detailed answers are required.

The way in which their system will work appears (at least to me) to be carefully guarded and as such I suspect we will never really truly know to what extent it reaches. We can and will ask questions (as is our right to) but I do not think we will get sufficient answers.

At the end of the day, how can you really trust a company that has made its previous fortunes in generating spyware.

It says a lot at how fast they ran away when asked those questions yesterday. You can just imagine how much work there legal dept is putting in at the moment ensuring that the answers they give are just within the frame work they have given without giving away the true nature of there Spyware.

dav 07-03-2008 09:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
One thing I would like to see from Phorm is a webpage that you can visit which tells you your status (whether you are actively being monitored, have blocked them, whether they have any record pertaining to your browser etc), exactly what is in your cookie, what ad categories your cookie is matched against and maybe the ability to delete or permanently disable certain categories.

If they are so concerned with data privacy then they can prove it by giving us access to anything they may have and give us the ability to alter it. It should be simple, all they have to do is provide a page that, instead of returning an add returns the cookie contents.

BTW, I still genuinely hope this thing never gets implemented, but the bloodymindedness and contempt for customers exhibited by VM leads me to believe that it will arrive sooner rather than later and that it will be very difficult to avoid.

Sirius 07-03-2008 10:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Here's a point. They say they reject numbers over 3 digits. That is a hell of a lot of cvs security numbers they will have from the back of credit cards. :shocked:

lucevans 07-03-2008 10:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34502106)
Here's a point. They say they reject numbers over 3 digits. That is a hell of a lot of cvs security numbers they will have from the back of credit cards. :shocked:

I agree - even if you only ever enter your cvs number on an https page (which I always check before typing anything to do with my credit cards) we've only got their word for it that they're not analyzing encrypted pages...

Sirius 07-03-2008 11:08

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34502109)
I agree - even if you only ever enter your cvs number on an https page (which I always check before typing anything to do with my credit cards) we've only got their word for it that they're not analyzing encrypted pages...

On to disconnects as i type.

none 07-03-2008 11:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34502109)
I agree - even if you only ever enter your cvs number on an https page (which I always check before typing anything to do with my credit cards) we've only got their word for it that they're not analyzing encrypted pages...

And following on from that, how will Phorm know that a string of data is longer than 3 digits unless it has first viewed it (albeit for a nano second) and then subsequently disguarded it.


http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=60&tstart=0
Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter N
Phorm have claimed that they will not collect "sensitive areas like adult or medical data".

The only ways for them to know that I have accessed a site for a particular type of data is for them to either view that data in breach of the Data Protection Act or make an assumption based on their opinion of my personal, private and legally protected browsing habits.

Could the moderators explain how it is possible for Phorm to know what sort of data I am going to access without seeing it?

BT users are now starting to let fly with simple questions and so far no answers have been given.


On a side note, the e-petition has already received over 1300 signatures in a little over two days - http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

I think perhaps certain people have vastly underestimated how seriously UK citizens value their privacy, especially online.

ahardie 07-03-2008 11:21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Just a quick question. If people do cancel VM, who are they going to change to? I'm sure I read that there is no point changing over to asdl because they all use the BT network. Is this true? Sounds unlikely to me.

Sirius 07-03-2008 11:32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hardie (Post 34502124)
Just a quick question. If people do cancel VM, who are they going to change to? I'm sure I read that there is no point changing over to adsl because they all use the BT network. Is this true? Sounds unlikely to me.

I have just got off the phone to disconnections having had my notes updated to include my intention to leave if this is a OPT OUT not a OPT IN.

I also made them include that i expressly do not give them permission to sell, Give, Pass any information derived from my surfing habit by the use of Deep Packet Inspection of my data to phorm or they agents or customers or to Virgin Media. I also stated that i do not give Virgin Media permission to carry out Deep Packet Inspection of my data passing between myself and VM. I also stated that should they go ahead and pass any of my surfing habits or information to Phorm that i will sue them for failing to inform me first and for failing to protect my private data.

If i move it will be

BT for the phone.

Sky HD for my TV

Be Unlimited for my Broadband. (they are LLU so don't use BT's backbone.)

none 07-03-2008 11:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ahardie (Post 34502124)
Just a quick question. If people do cancel VM, who are they going to change to? I'm sure I read that there is no point changing over to asdl because they all use the BT network. Is this true? Sounds unlikely to me.

Yup BE also for me.


Just in case you may have missed it, Phorm's CEO KentErtugrul hosted a public question and answer session last tonight on the Phorm system and how it works. You will find an unedited transcript of the session here - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?10

makes for very interesting reading. There are many parts I could comment on, but two parts in particular stood out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KentErtugrul
If you look at your browser right now, you will see that perhaps hundreds of cookies have traked your activity online. You never gave permission for any of that, they all store where you have been and shutting off cookies makes the internet basically unusable. Wold it not be better to have something far more useful from an advertiser's perspective, which stores no data at all as to browsing history and for the first time gives users a clear and readily accessible on / off switch?

Feel like your having your intelligence insulted yet?


how about this instead
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksg/KentErtugrul
Ksg: How does Phorm advantage us as a user?
KentErtugrul: Good question with several answers. Webwise brings the following benefits to users:

1) Reduces the amount of irrelevant advertising which you see as you browse
2) Long term, reduces the amount of advertising which you see altogether
3) Dramatically enhances the landscape of online privacy by introduding, for the first time, a system which is completely anonymous, keeps no record of where you ahev been or what you have searched for and gives you a clear and transparent on/ off switch
4) Makes many more of the websites which you visit much more profitable, making the internet a more vibrant, interesting and relevant place to be
5) Protects you from online fraud without having to download software, switch it on or update it. Remember that the most likely victims of phishing attacks are the least likely to to have taken the necessary steps to protect themselves
6) Allows ISPs to give you a better quality internet
7) Creates a "Google while browsing" web experience
8) Creates many other additional opportunities which we will be presenting in the future, each of which is very beneficial and each of which, like webwise, will always be an open choice on the part of users as to whether or not to embrace

Take note of point 8 especially "Creates many other additional opportunities which we will be presenting in the future". Meaning once our system is in place, we may at any time change, amend or introduce added 'functionality' to Phorm as we see fit. That I suspect is the true nature of Phorm.

Mick 07-03-2008 11:52

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34502106)
Here's a point. They say they reject numbers over 3 digits. That is a hell of a lot of cvs security numbers they will have from the back of credit cards. :shocked:

If that is the case then how are they going to get the 16 digit card number from the card then? Surely this will be read before the CVS will.

brundles 07-03-2008 11:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
How on earth does he think that long term it will reduce the amount of advertising we get shovelled down our throttled connection?

Sirius 07-03-2008 12:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34502143)
If that is the case then how are they going to get the 16 digit card number from the card then? Surely this will be read before the CVS will.

The CVS number is generally imputed in a different field on a form or web page. If that 3 digit number is sent as 3 digits then they WILL have it.

Mick 07-03-2008 12:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34502150)
The CVS number is generally imputed in a different field on a form or web page. If that 3 digit number is sent as 3 digits then they WILL have it.

It is usually after the card number though not before it on most web forms when paying by credit card. But even so...

I thought they couldn't read or intercept encrypted data anyway. Which this data will be.

A CVS is useless without the full 16 digit card number. The two sets of 4 digits for the start and expiry date.


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