Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
:welcome: Tech Team to Cable Forum :tu:
We look forward to contructive debate that will hopefully clarify many of the issues raised. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hi Stuart,
Each ISP will choose how they best offer this to their customers. I know the boards are fully of healthy skepticism but lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package. I hope to reassure you as in the scenario you outline, where customers have to opt in to receive webwise, if you are not opted in, no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out (in your scenario, not opted in) websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing. I hope this helps -- email me at techteam@phorm.com with any other comments or questions. Thanks. techteam |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hello Tech Team.
I'm sure you are aware that many here have done considerable investigations into your system. Can you please clarify if you intend to carry out another independant audit into your privacy management systems. We appreciate that Earnst & Young have carried out one based on US privacy laws, but the UK is very different. When can we expect a report that covers the UK Data Protection Act, and also RIPA. ---------- Post added at 15:26 ---------- Previous post was at 15:24 ---------- Also, do you understand the reluctance of end users of this system to trust Phorm, based on your CEO's reported former activities in the Spyware field? Given this interest, and what appears to be a fairly weak opt-out method, are you not concerned that respected anti spyware and anti trojan programs are simply going to remove your op-out cookies? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Can it please be clarified that opt out is a complete opt out and not simply we don't see the adverts but our browsing is still being farmed ??. Thats the most important thing for me i am sure your a nice guy and all but i would trust saddam hussein more then phorm sorry but it's how i feel.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hi and welcome to the site Tech team (Phorm) Thank you for sparing some time to answering some of our questions.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Welcome TechTeam, and thank you for having the courage to enter the lion's den!
My question... If the Phorm system goes live on the VM network, and I choose to opt-out of the system by any of the means that you provide in the FAQs on your Webwise site (e.g. allow the "opt-out" cookie to reside on my computer, or block all access by my computer to the domain OIX.net) how much information about my browsing habits that are not currently processed in any way, will still be collected, analysed, added to a profile or relayed to any system which is related to Phorm or its associates/clients? To be totally clear on this point; I am not asking you whether you will use any data about me if I opt-out; I am asking you whether any such information will be sent to anyone (including your company). I understand the semantic differences between the words collect, analyze, send and use and I would like a definitive statement from your company on which, if any, of these you intend to do in the case of an opt-out? (Edited down to one question, as requested...) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I think it would be viable to let tech team answer one question from one member at a time - Let's not over bombard here... Thanks.
I've been asked to forward your questions to Phorm as well VIA email so I will try to get some answers there too if tech team cannot answer here. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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This reply is, in part, encouraging as it places the onus of responsibility squarely on VM's shoulders as to the implementation of your ad-forcing system. Is that correct? However, I would like to question your claim that "lots of research conducted does strongly suggest many customers would like this as an automatic add-on to their package." During this research was Webwise presented as, primarily, an anti-phishing service that also gives a "more relevant" browsing experience, without actually revealing to the survey respondants that all their web traffic was being monitored? If the survey was not completely transparent regarding the technology used, then it results are null and void. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I have a few questions:
1). As others have mentioned, the most important thing for me is getting an assurance that if I opt out it really is out. I want it like a switch that means Phorm never see's a single thing I do, even if it checks my data and then makes the decision to leave me out of it then that would not be good enough. Does the process that decides if a user should be processed by Phorm get performed by the ISP, on the ISP's Network, using the ISP's servers, and with passing no data whatsoever to Phorm and Phorms servers, whether internal or external to the ISP ? 2). Is the decision to go for an 'Opt Out' system entirelly at the behest of ISP's or is Phorm as a company pushing this ? Do you recommend an 'Opt Out' deployment method and if so what do you justify this method on ? 3). Having read some of the information we have available it seems like the scope for advertisement catagories is currently limited. Can/Will this be expanded, if so who will control the decision making processes behind this and what assurances do we have that questionable advertisement content will not be targetted to customers such as adult, gambling, religeous, medical etc. Who decides what is appropriate or not ? who decides how much to expand this system ? 4). Phorm insist that their technology is 100% secure and anonymous, to be blunt about it and I don't mean this in an insulting way, but why should we believe you ? what evidence can you provide to backup these claims ? 5). What performance impact does this system have. If you are analysing all this data before I'm served with the web page surely it must have an overhead, sure it might be very small but I just cannot see how this can have no impact with regards to the speed I get web content. I pay for a 20meg Internet connection, I want it to be fast, not have something in the middle slowing things down. |
Information Commissioner has received no complaints
A journalist has contacted the Information Commissioner's office and says that the IC office have not received a single complaint about Phorm. Considering over 900 people have signed the e-petition, that seems odd. Anyway, here's some information for writing to the Information Commissioner:
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?6 |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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eeeh - this is getting to be more fun than a John LeCarré novel... |
Re: Information Commissioner has received no complaints
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Basically what this means is that you contact the ISP (Virgin Media) and state your complaint/concerns. VM then reply to you with whatever (they think) will appease you. You then contact the ICO in writing with VM's response attached. The ICO then has the mechanism to act. In view of this, you're in a catch 22 situation because firstly you have to get a response from VM - not guranteed or takes ages. Then if VM get wind of what's going on, all they have to do is to word their responses accordingly so as not to appear as the bad guy. In the current climate, (I reckon) you'd be hard pressed to get any kind of response from VM - for just such a reason. Si thee. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I would like 'tech team' to explain the line "Because of inherent limitations in controls, error or fraud may occur and not be detected." in the auditor's report. When you consider that internet connections are used for on-line banking etc it's not surprising this is making a lot of people nervous.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Opt out opt in who cares?, if this idea is implemented I for one will not be opting in/out I'll just tell Virgin What they can do with their internet connection and if enough people follow suit they will soon change their mind.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Techteam Hi all, I am trying to get to all of the posts so please bear with me. Working from ahardie up: sorry but this is classic auditor language -- they have to add these caveats. If we were to boil down the essence of the report, what E&Y have confirmed, after thoroughly checking our systems and controls, is that all of the privacy claims (see our website) we make are true. Similarly, 80/20 Thinking's MD (Privacy International's Simon Davies) has acknowleged that "Phorm does advance the whole sector of protecting personal information by two to three steps." (see bbc online piece today). I know two or three steps may seem small, but in the context of an online world where searches, browsing histories and IP addresses are stored for months on end, we think not storing any of that data is a big step forward. Best wishes Techteam |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
If there is a complete Opt Out it will come at a price imo.
They are'nt going to let people just opt out without efing them over some way. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hi -- to confirm, the BBC is not part of OIX as it does not carry advertising. OIX will only serve ads into existing ad slots onto websites that partner with us. I wanted to clear that up earlier!
Best wishes, Techteam |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Just to reiterate, opt out is total opt out. Your internet experience will be as it is today. You'll still see ads but they will be untargeted and there won't be an additional layer of anti-fraud protection. There have been some questions posted about how our protection differs from existing offerings. Our offering is network based so it means no download for users. Users are warned in real time as they browse to fraudulent site and given the choice to continue or go to their homepage -- necessary if a user has clicked on a fraudulent email. We are not over claiming for our fraud protection -- it's another useful layer of protection for users that's free and protects in real time. Techteam |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Would that be accurate? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Some advice to the companies involved here: it was a BIG mistake to announce the deal to introduce this system and then leave a complete information vacuum until closer to roll-out time. People in the UK DO care about their privacy and security and it seems that someone, somewhere made an assumption that nobody would kick-up much of a fuss about this, so we don't need to trouble them with any details about how it will work or what it will do. WRONG!! |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Just waiting for some answers.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Its fine saying that once opted out no data is passed from the ISP to Phorm (i.e. returned data from a webpage) but what you don’t seem to want to answer is whether any data is SENT to Phorm in the first place (i.e. the initial request for said webpage) So for example If I am opted out (via your lousy cookie), does any data sent FROM my machine go through Phorm systems or servers (at ANY stage) in order to load a web page, send an email or IM. It’s a simple enough question, but please be as technical as you like when replying. Or >> If opted out, does the data requested (FOR a webpage for example) bypass ALL Phorm technology and thus route itself ENTIRELY though my ISP’s servers only (just as it would be if you were not to exist). Or (as I suspect) >> Does some/any/all data sent FROM a user go through Phorm at some stage in order to REQUEST a web page, send an email or IM, even if the user is opted out. In essence, what I'm asking is this, does OUTBOUND traffic still go through Phorm (at ANY stage) in order to reach it destination even if the user is opted out? You see, to put it bluntly, I don’t trust you and so it would seem that over 95% of members who have voted here are also inclined to agree. In short WE DO NOT WANT OR NEED PHORM, not now not ever. Dressing this up as of ‘benefit to the user’ under the guise of so called security is frankly insulting. So know this, I like many others will fight this to the bitter end, how ever long it takes. Phight Phorm and take back what is rightfully yours...your privacy! |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hi lucevans,
I do take the comments on the chin. We spent a long time preparing websites and flash animations and feeling like we really had an information hub about our systems and products. We didn't get enough information out there (here, for example). I should stress it has nothing to do with complacency about how people feel about their privacy. Quite the contrary. We spent a long time developing technology, systems and practices that are acutely privacy friendly so we're very happy to have the opportunity to explain that and engage. Best wishes techteam ---------- Post added at 17:51 ---------- Previous post was at 17:48 ---------- No. If you are not part of the system ie opted out no data will be processed by phorm. I really hope that's clear. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Could you provide system diagrams and show who's hardware, software, data exchanges occur, opted in and out for say the an input to googles search page of
John Doe, 1 Main Street, Anywhereville, 90210, or the same input to FT.com search box (who I believe is opted in to OIX). |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Sorry - just one more question, having read your revised FAQs on www.webwise.com -
Given that I have blocked all communication with OIX.net at router-level am I correct in following assumptions: 1) No Phorm/webwise/OIX-related cookie containing a randomly-generated anonymous user ID can possibly be stored on my computer 2) When I request webpages over the VM network, the Phorm hardware in the VM network still analyzes the content of the pages I request, but because my computer does not contain an anonymous ID cookie, the Phorm or VM hardware is unable to save any category information to the Phorm server (in the VM network) because it does not have an anonymous ID to assign them to. 3) Therefore, there will be no anonymous user ID record on the VM or Phorm servers related to the content of any pages my computer has requested over the VM network. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Can i have it in writing by your company that NONE of my data if i OPT OUT will EVER be seen by you or your agents or your customers or infact anyone connected in any way with your company. or you equipment in the head-ends and pop sites of VIRGIN MEDIA and that Virgin Media will NEVER see any of my browsing or other private information if i OPT OUT.. Also for HOW long does the OPT OUT last. ?????
Finally you tried this without informing any of the poor BT customers last year. How can we trust you when you have done this without informing people and giving them the chance to OPT OUT. You were court doing this last year by users of BT. ???? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I want to be able to completely opt out of this and use VM BB like phorm does'nt even exist.
I want nothing to with Phorm! If this does'nt happen then i will leave VM and never use any other Virgin product ever again! |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
How does the Phorm technology embedded within the ISPs network not see the IP address of each customer when it analyzes the TCP/IP packets of data?
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
QUESTION: It’s stated that opt out works by the presence of a cookie, therefore how can people who chose not to allow persistent cookies opt out?
Furthermore, the Data Protection Act gives consumers a clear right to dictate how their personal information is used, (beyond data processing necessary in providing the service to the user) by expressing their preferences in writing to the Data Controller of their ISP. QUESTION: How will Phorm detect where people have, under provisions of the Data Protection Act, written to the Data Controller of their ISP expressly withdrawing permission to process their personal data? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hello Toto,
We would be very happy to have our systems undergo a privacy audit by E&Y or another auditor in the UK. We are in the middle of a Privacy Impact Assessment (for info on PIA please see the Information Commissioner Office site: http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...l/1-intro.html which is being conducted by Simon Davies (80/20 Thinking / Privacy International) and we will work with him and his team throughout the year to ensure we adhere to the highest standards of privacy. I think that our involvement in adware is an issue for some people. However we fully stand by everything we did in that business. We quickly realised however, that it was near-impossible for people to distinguish between adware and spyware and that we did not want to continue in the desktop area. We made the unprecedented move of then voluntarily shutting down that business model, which was worth $5-6 million a year to us, in order to pursue an ISP model. We realise that some people will not accept that as an explanation. But we also believe there are enough people out there who recognise that technology innovation is about change, trying stuff out, getting it wrong and trying again until you get it right. And we feel that our solution today is really right -- and a big leap forward for privacy. ---------- Post added at 18:23 ---------- Previous post was at 18:20 ---------- Yes Shin Gouki, you can permanently opt out and your internet experience will be exactly as it is now. Best wishes Techteam |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I don't know how long tech team has left to answer any questions but those that still have a question that needs answering - I will be collecting such questions and forwarding them to Phorm to answer via e-mail. Once received, I will post back their replies here. So if you haven't got an answer yet, I will try my best to get you one from Phorm. Thanks. Let's really try to keep this a civil debate. Ranting and demanding answers will not get anyone anywhere.
Also - Please try not to ask a question that has already been answered. One question that seems to be being repeated is the Opt out having no data tracked. To clarify, Phorms word is that no tracking is carried out if customers have chosen to opt out. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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they say you opt out and your data no longer passes through Phorm at any stage, yet i read elsewhere that just is'nt the case - http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/05/bt_phorm_trial/ Quote:
Its also been mentioned here (first post, top of page) - http://community.plus.net/forum/inde...opic=61201.112 Quote:
So you'll will have to excuse my skepticism to the answers we've received so far as they have in no way made me feel any better about this whole affair. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I use a browser that allows me to block adverts on websites also blocks popups.. I chose my firewall /virus killer to help protect my privacy.
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From all I have read and I have been reading a lot I also listened to the video from the CEO, I feel from all that is being said is trying to convince us we all need this phorm.... I feel this is more an invasion of my privacy, my freedom of choice and human rights. Phorm is offering under the disguise of protection targeted adverts... You say you give a random number then target adverts to this on my browsing habits... Your system could end up giving more false adverts than correct biased on what people use the internet for. I moderate a busy forum in this role i sometimes search to help members with problems, source equipment for best deals. not for me personally just to help out on the forum. Phorm would then target me with all sorts of unwanted adverts due to this browsing which in turn would get annoying to time the customer. 1. What guarantees can you give us VM customers that this will not happen? 2, Why is it classed as security when all you are really doing is gathering information to send us adverts? 3. If this was only security then why will VM earn money from this instead of paying for this? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Having had a pc infected in the past with what they like to spin as adware in fact it was Spyware according to the Norton software that tried to remove it. I don't want there software anywhere near my pc or its connection. If i don't get a answer i will take it as a confirmation that even when OPTED OUT my data WILL be tracked but i just will not see the adds. I will then disconnect all my service to VM and get a bt phone line, Sky TV and BE for my Internet. That's a lot of money that Virgin Will lose from me. I think it will be more than what they would have made selling my private information to Phorm. aka 121 media |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Do people honestly think they will get a straight answer from a company that has a proven track record in the spyware making game? Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Having read some other articles mentioned on this thread i am sorry i don't believe what phorm is saying thier track record doesn't give me any reason to have trust in them. As such i return to my previous position if VM do this they lose me as a customer.
It is bad enough this system is even being contemplated but fobbing off people with talk of an extra layer of security is dishonest. I have stayed with this thread and will continue to do so but i will not comment anymore as there is nothing left for me personally now but to wait and see what happens and then act accordingly. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I would like to say thank you to Phorm for answering my main question by running away from it :clap::clap::clap::clap:.
As soon as i now receive that letter saying that Virgin will be selling my info to a SPYWARE company I will exercise my 30 days notice :tu: Well Done Phorm ---------- Post added at 20:01 ---------- Previous post was at 19:51 ---------- Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Should have also mentioned that right here on this very board they said that
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See here (comment 15) - http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php Quote:
Im with Sirius and RizzyKing, VM introduce this, then I too will be acting accordingly. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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As others have stated, you have failed to answer the question regarding the cookie, will this still be on my or any other users machine, even if i(and i will)opt out. For Phorm and the ISP`s this is about money and greed, nothing more. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Hmm - Telegraph news item says we should put up with Phorm or expect higher prices?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/connected...dltrack108.xml Please someone correct me if its not saying that at all ... :erm: |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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“If you are not part of the system ie opted out data will be processed by VM using phorm code on specific media farm hardware located in the UK on VM premises, however none of this data will then be passed to phorm to enable then to serve back advertising through OIX.” Just a thought. Equally I am typing this using a dell computer running microsoft XP and MSIE. In making this posting no data is being processed by microsoft or Dell but this posting could not happen without microsoft code being involved. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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But you could give me a 20MB or even the new 50MB pipe for free, subsidized by the op-in of Phorm and I'd still walk away. Would I be prepared to pay more for a Phorm-free ISP? You betchya! |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Btw Mick Thanks for allowing us to expose the spin that is Phorm and VirginMedia. I did not expect them to run away that fast :LOL: |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Can I ask when all this is to start please?
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We may not like this system, but the margins are so tight, we may have no choice. Although..........VM's margins are better than others. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
The issue isn't the ads, it's the harvesting of clickstream data and a cookie isn't cutting it. Multiple HTTP clients across multiple computers makes for a hell of an opt-out procedure. I looked at the webwise opt-out page and it uses javascript to set the cookie, that's neither guaranteed to be enabled or even supported (netsurf, dillo, lynx etc..) and there's issues for other client software like wget and curl.
Since techteam/phorm claim this is network level technology, why is the opt-out not handled per subscriber at the network level by the ISP? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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I respect the fact and understand that there is anger, even I am angry but we have to at least give people a chance to have their say. But if we start to get hostile or start demanding this, this or this. It doesn't get anywhere. |
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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I appreciate what you tried to do here honest. I just hate being taken for a ride by a company that i have had dealings with before when it comes to their spy-ware. I lost a lot of data due to the infection they gave me. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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In a sane world, it shouldn't be Phorm coming here telling us what is happening - Phorm is not our ISP - Virgin Media is and they should be explaining things regarding setups their end. Agree? :cool: |
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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They come here because its in their own selfish interest to do so, nothing more. By trying to appease the angry crowd, they hope less users will leave their ISP. This matters because if there were a mass boycott of all things Phorm, their business model is gone as no ISP will then touch them for fear of losing customers. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Even I agree that it shows some bottle for them to come on here and I have to give them respect for that. A part of me thinks that this is a combination of a misunderstanding of the technology combined with some bad initial communication on Phorms part. It seems this has caught them on the hop a bit.
It doesn't mean I'm any happier about what Phorm does, and I'm definately to yet be convinced by their arguments, my stance is that I will still be looking for a new ISP and telling anyone else who cares to do the same thing because I'm just as angry at Virgin for the way it looks like they are allowing it to be implemented (i.e. the default of being opted in). |
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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I've watched and read their woolly replies on many other sites and wasn't prepared to sit back and see the same thing happen here. But I stand by what I said before, you cannot take what they say at face value. Every time I read one of their replies I feel like I'm being lied to, cant help it, thats just the way I feel. Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I have two questions that I don't think have been covered:-
1) Are the ads specifically targeted at the cookie in your browser? If my Nan uses one PC in the house and I use the other will her cookery related surfing affect the ads served to me? 2) Can the opt out be done on an IP/account basis? If I want to opt out of the service I assume I'm not going to have to opt out in every browser on every PC that use my IP? ---------- Post added at 21:50 ---------- Previous post was at 21:45 ---------- Just thought of a third: 3) How are you going to prove to your advertisers how efficient your product is if you don't track any data on it? How can you tell how many ABC1s you've reached and how on earth can you set a tariff with your buyers without this data? |
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Others will decide for themselves, free choice, no gun to the head, so why say "let others decide for themselves". What has that got to do with me? I'm merely voicing an opinion. feel free to PM me rather than post back here in this thread. |
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I'm cooked :beer: but there's some reading material here ---------- Post added at 22:16 ---------- Previous post was at 22:14 ---------- Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
I'd prefer that the Phorm system didn't exist and wasn't to be used. It is good to see that they are at least trying stand up and be counted, even if so far we're not convinced by the arguments.
My real beef however is that I don't have a contract with Phorm. I have a contract with Virgin Media and it is thus my ISP that should be justifying to me as their customer, what they are up to. My ISP shouldn't be hiding behind their supplier's coat tails. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Now, if we assume they are cheating, lying, underhand b*****ds, and plan to aggregate data on even those people who have opted out by blocking oix.net cookies, they would have to identify your browsing record on their server using some other unique identifier which could be positively tied to your connection's clickdata - and that, presumably, would have to be one of those personally-identifiable pieces of data from your ISP that they claim not to have access to. If it turned-out they were doing this, not only would they be in deep trouble, so would Virgin for supplying them with that personally-identifiable information. Probably to the tune of bankruptcy once class action law suits and regulator fines had been accounted for. Not even Virgin Media are that stupid. (And I still don't want this damned system...) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Perhaps this could be another question to put to their tech team? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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"Just try it out and get it wrong." Three cheers for this great leap forward in privacy! I can't wait for my family to share the joke when they're served ads related to my porn surfing! Classic. You guys are a ray of light in our otherwise poorly-profiled and inadequately-targeted lives. MD, SchaftU Enterprises |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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FAO Mods
I repeat my earlier question to the mods: have you told anyone at Virgin about the general feeling on this board (if they don't know already)? What was/is their response?
I will keep repeating that question until I/we get an answer, because we need to know what they think. Before I/we do anything drastic such as changing ISP, I/we need information on which to base an informed decision - and I do not mean the spin we're currently getting. One way or another, I for one want the TRUTH about what the hell's going on! Are we supposed to believe that Virgin Media's so hard-up they need a company like Phorm to inject some cash into 'em? Come on! Hang on, I've just thought of an apposite quote (from Richard Morgan's Altered Carbon): In any agenda, political or otherwise, there is a cost to be borne. Always ask what it is, and who will be paying. If you don't, the agenda-makers will pick up the perfume of your silence like swamp panthers on the scent of blood, and the next thing you know, the person expected to bear the cost will be you. And you may not have what it takes to pay. So: what, really, is the agenda here? Who's paying (us, most likely)? In what coin? And can we afford it? Myself, I don't think so. Nor do I see why we should have to. This is not what we signed up for. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Not read all the posts, so sorry if it's been brought up before but could you do the following: -
Use the internet through a secure vpn tunnel to say an office server. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: FAO Mods
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I was going to email a link to this thread but seems Cablefoeum disable this feature, it works on our forums and sending emails to Ben has normally brought replies to or offers of help for the member. I need to know for sure since I am totally against having advertisements targeted to me... If/when I decide to buy somethung I like to do my own checks source my own products and find where has the best offer. Not some company paying Phorm to plug their adverts on me... |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Out of interest, does anyone know how much revenue the phorm deal is likely to generate for VM monthly per user? |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Here's one of the FAQs quoted from www.webwise.com (Phorm's consumer portal);
"Q. Is my data still viewed when I opt out of the system? A. When you opt out -- or switch the system off -- it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear: the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out, websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be ads from the Phorm service and they will not be more relevant to your browsing." This statement is inconsistent. First it assures us that no browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. (I suspect that the use of the word "Phorm" here does not refer to the servers that Phorm have installed inside the ISP, but rather to the company itself) Then it says that the Phorm servers are located inside the ISP network. Then it tells us that Browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Well, if the Phorm servers are inside the ISP, then data doesn't have to be passed outside the ISP in order to be transmitted to the Phorm Servers, does it? So do they mean that no browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside OR outside the ISP, or do they mean that browsing data is transmitted to the Phorm servers inside the ISP, but not to any Phorm server outside the ISP? I suspect the latter, and if this is the case, then as far as I'm concerned, the webpages I'm viewing are still being "analyzed" (i.e. spied upon). ---------- Post added at 00:51 ---------- Previous post was at 00:45 ---------- Quote:
I've never clicked on an ad on a webpage in my life, and I'm sure as hell not going to start now... |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...p_advertising/ __________________________________________________ ______ Edit below __________________________________________________ ______ Just had a thought,phorm states that no user information is kept yet they have need for a data protection department and on there own privacy report it says "you have the right to request a copy of any information that Phorm may have about you and to have any inaccuracies corrected." Plus later in the same paragraph "We will use reasonable efforts to supply, correct or delete any information about you that Phorm may have." I know businesses have to have some data protection policy now days regarding customer protection,but for a company that "is designed to avoid collection of any Personally Identifiable Information(PII) of the user" makes me even more suspicious of what actual data they keep on my habits http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/policy_services.php |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Personally, I think that they know our data will reach Phorm systems/servers at some point in the chain but they do not want to admit that as people will (rightfully or wrongfully) view that as spying. So what we get are carefully worded replies to help avoid giving the answers they do not want to give. In other words, they give some of what you want to hear, just not all of it. Politicians are especially good at this. I have noticed their responses on other sites/blogs are extremely well considered and deliberately ambiguous in places where detailed answers are required. The way in which their system will work appears (at least to me) to be carefully guarded and as such I suspect we will never really truly know to what extent it reaches. We can and will ask questions (as is our right to) but I do not think we will get sufficient answers. At the end of the day, how can you really trust a company that has made its previous fortunes in generating spyware. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
One thing I would like to see from Phorm is a webpage that you can visit which tells you your status (whether you are actively being monitored, have blocked them, whether they have any record pertaining to your browser etc), exactly what is in your cookie, what ad categories your cookie is matched against and maybe the ability to delete or permanently disable certain categories.
If they are so concerned with data privacy then they can prove it by giving us access to anything they may have and give us the ability to alter it. It should be simple, all they have to do is provide a page that, instead of returning an add returns the cookie contents. BTW, I still genuinely hope this thing never gets implemented, but the bloodymindedness and contempt for customers exhibited by VM leads me to believe that it will arrive sooner rather than later and that it will be very difficult to avoid. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Here's a point. They say they reject numbers over 3 digits. That is a hell of a lot of cvs security numbers they will have from the back of credit cards. :shocked:
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http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...rt=60&tstart=0 Quote:
On a side note, the e-petition has already received over 1300 signatures in a little over two days - http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/ I think perhaps certain people have vastly underestimated how seriously UK citizens value their privacy, especially online. |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
Just a quick question. If people do cancel VM, who are they going to change to? I'm sure I read that there is no point changing over to asdl because they all use the BT network. Is this true? Sounds unlikely to me.
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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I also made them include that i expressly do not give them permission to sell, Give, Pass any information derived from my surfing habit by the use of Deep Packet Inspection of my data to phorm or they agents or customers or to Virgin Media. I also stated that i do not give Virgin Media permission to carry out Deep Packet Inspection of my data passing between myself and VM. I also stated that should they go ahead and pass any of my surfing habits or information to Phorm that i will sue them for failing to inform me first and for failing to protect my private data. If i move it will be BT for the phone. Sky HD for my TV Be Unlimited for my Broadband. (they are LLU so don't use BT's backbone.) |
Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Just in case you may have missed it, Phorm's CEO KentErtugrul hosted a public question and answer session last tonight on the Phorm system and how it works. You will find an unedited transcript of the session here - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?10 makes for very interesting reading. There are many parts I could comment on, but two parts in particular stood out. Quote:
how about this instead Quote:
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
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Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
How on earth does he think that long term it will reduce the amount of advertising we get shovelled down our throttled connection?
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I thought they couldn't read or intercept encrypted data anyway. Which this data will be. A CVS is useless without the full 16 digit card number. The two sets of 4 digits for the start and expiry date. |
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