Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've noticed my history links take me to the main page of the board instead of this thread.

Somethings changed ~ glitch in the matrix?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Be wary about this.

You are co-operating with an (IHMO) illegal method of operation.

It is not the responsibility of web site operators to make BT's Phorm system legal.

It is BT's responsibility to obtain *consent* from all parties to a communication interception, not your responsibility to deny it.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There has been a problem with the forum, an Admin is working on it :)

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/27...-is-blank.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hey no problem Kursk & Paul :)

It seems that the Ofcom Consumer Panel have also raised a concern about privacy issues

http://www.ofcomconsumerpanel.org.uk/news/270308.htm

I'll contact them with the concerns about Phorm, and see what response they give.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Me to!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is wrong. As I understand it, the websites need to provide consent to be included, not ask to be removed from the scheme. Still, what can you expect from a company that has been illegally monitoring their customers and lying about it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My statement is correct. BT do say that. Whether that position represents the legal realities is another matter. I never said BT were planning a legal system!

But they have said publicly that websites can ask to be Phorm blocklisted - and I'm keen that several million website owners contact them and ask.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3768302.ece

PC Plod doesn't have the time or inclination to investigate a minimum of 108,000 criminal violations of RIPA by BT and Phorm but they do have the time to prosecute a 19 year old with downs syndrome who has a mental age of 5 for racial assault just for pushing an asian girl also with special needs.

Disgraceful. No wonder they don't have time to investigate BT/Phorm when this is the kind of madness that is going on in this country.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Why should we contact BT, and waste our time?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It was more BT's time I was hoping to waste. After all - many here have devoted hours to convincing our ISPs that this Phorm/Webwise malarkey has to stop. I know I have. When I told BT they simply did not have my consent to monitor anyone's data exchange with my sites, they agreed to list the sites. If many millions of website owners all emailed a similar request to members of BT management I think they'd notice, and it would inconvenience BT a lot more than it would inconvenience the website owners individually.
My position is that if BT want to make ill-prepared statements and expose themselves to this sort of stupidity, I am very happy to help them receive the consequences of their rashness. And having to answer a very large number of communications from Website owners in the next month could well get their attention.
It might even be that they begin to see the folly of their ways.

And of course we also need a lot of websites who simply quietly put a text notice on their sites stating that Webwise profiling is not allowed, and then monitor their logs to spot when Webwise does pass by, and then report the matter to the relevant body (which body that would be is still being clarified by good folks here).

---------- Post added at 14:42 ---------- Previous post was at 14:32 ----------

Well you could try the lady doing the media appearances for BT in recent news stories - Emma Sanderson. The standard for emailing a BT executive is firstnameDOTlastnameATbtDOTcom

If you browse through the BT Beta forum threads here you could pick up a few more managerial monikers

http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...art=0&tstart=0
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=2615&tstart=0
http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=3152&tstart=0

I'd be interested to know how you get on.

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:42 ----------

BT have 'fessed up to 2 secret trials so far which they claim to have been legal. Others who were monitored during the trials and who suffered browser hijacks are consulting solicitors.

The latest BT trial was supposed to have started in March and is constantly being delayed- which greatly encourages me, because I think they are struggling to find a legal model even for the trial, given the latest pronouncements from ICO and Home Office etc.I think they are now running a bit scared - making confident PR pronouncements, and pushing back the start date of the trials indefinitely.

They have promised to announce the start of the trials in the BT Beta forums, so if they keep their promise, we can let you know. Unfortunately experience does not give confidence, in the BT promises department.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks for the Info. A job for tomorrow while at work I think.

BT have become so corrupt they can not see what they are doing, and the lack of any main stream media coverage is isolating them from a backlash.

I am sick of my elected representatives ignoring email and letters about this.

Maybe start a thread naming and shaming them. This close to an election, it may even remind them that it is the people who they work for, not vested interest.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep, a bit frustrating to say the least isn't it. But it's not just you they are ignoring... If the Earl Of Northesk can't have an answer to his question to the government about Phorm (which was due on March 17th) then there's quite possibly more behind the delays we're seeing than we know about at this time...

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Do you contact your MP's via http://www.theyworkforyou.com/ ? the advantage of using that site is that they DO take the trouble to ask you later, if your MP replied and they collect stats on it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

test

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

HTML response code 307:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please everyone, stop doing this. Just change your terms and conditions, it is BT's responsibility not to intercept your communications as a result of those terms, not your responsibility to send BT a list of sites for blacklisting.

By emailing them you are playing right into their hands because when someone who hasn't been added to the blacklist, but has changed their terms takes BT to court, BT will just say they should have asked to be included on the blacklist.

So PLEASE stop!

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What you could do, which is what I did with the DPA letter to VM, was just tell them I refused Phorm permission to data-mine our sites - but as I didn't tell them which sites those are, it's now up to them to check. (All three sites now have 'Phorm denial' statements on the home page).

Colin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

People need to realise that it is not -their- responsibility to make Phorm's technology legal, it is the ISP's responsibility. They have to get your consent to intercept your communications, their rubbish about implied consent from web publishers is exactly that, rubbish. The only reason I am suggesting people explicitly deny consent on their web pages is to just guarantee that the ISP cannot even go near the implied consent argument for their defence.

Contacting the ISPs and asking to be added to a blacklist is insane. What are you going to do if the technology gets deployed by more and more ISPs around the world? Are you going to write to every single one to get added to yet another blacklist?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, I'm a new poster to this forum, although I have been following it for some weeks, ever since the BT forums stopped being helpful.

I find the amount of effort put into this topic amazing, thank you.

I hope you don't mind the perspective of a frustrated and worried BT user in your discussions.

One aspect (as a BT ADSL+ user) bothers me: - ignoring cable connections, which are available only in urban areas, there are 5592 internet-providing exchanges in the UK. Of these 3756 or 67% have no LLU services, in other words internet users have no option but BT for high speed connections. (Info from samknows.com)

All these users are totally dependent on an opt-in solution (or a complete retreat) to avoid being malphormed. I am one of them.

As I understand it we cannot block Webwise or we will get no service, so if webmasters see blocking BT as an option, the users of 3756 exchanges will be denied access to their sites. I am sure BT are aware of this.

It must be in the interests of these users that your campaign to stop Phorm in its tracks succeeds. Strength to your bow.

Please let me know if I have misinterpreted anything.

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well the ISPs using BT Wholesale products should not be affected. The system BT are planning to deploy is for the BT retail side of things only. There would be an ISP revolution if BT started to force this technology at the BT Wholesale level.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 18:50 ---------- Previous post was at 18:42 ----------

Speaking of BT. Has anyone seen their latest TV commercial? They are pushing the whole idea of protecting children from malicious websites so that parents don't need to worry about supervising them. This is bad from the perspective that they will use the Webwise "anti-phishing" system to promote this but it is also good in that regarding the questions about child consent over the past couple of days; BT are indicating that parents don't need to supervise their children online because BT makes it safe, so it weakens any argument about parental responsibility with regards age of consent.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I saw this earlier and immediately thought of it as a backdoor promotion of their fabulous all singing all dancing anti-phishing sideshow.

Its pretty dangerous too, completely delegating childrens on-line safety to any third party software is absolutely no substitute for keeping a personal eye on them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It would be worth any parents sending a registered letter to their children's schools stating that if the school are using an ISP which has deployed Phorm or other such technology that they deny consent for their children to use the school's computer facilities because of the Webwise system.

I know many schools use BT and VM network peering so this is a big issue that needs to be addressed. I will be writing to BECTA about this very issue next week. It might be worth starting a pressure group called something like "Parents against Phorm" too.

Let's not forget that children are already regarded as susceptible to advertising which is why tobacco adverts have been banned and there have been restrictions placed on advertising for things like Alcopops. So the very concept of profiling children to target them with behavioural advertising is a serious concern before you even take age of consent into consideration.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As being another one of those people affected by the inland revenue data disc loss last year i have written to the ico and brought up this subject and other issues and will await a reply and let you guys know :).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I return today from Wales and am struggling to get upto phorm :) ok you guys went into overdrive while I was away looks like I needa few days to catch up unless theire is a quick summery of important stuff..

What books are left on Alexanders wish list? Lost the link :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Welcome back Florence,

You can find the list here:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/registry/...ndard&x=5&y=10

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=AlexanderHanff;34533634]Well the ISPs using BT Wholesale products should not be affected. The system BT are planning to deploy is for the BT retail side of things only. There would be an ISP revolution if BT started to force this technology at the BT Wholesale level.

Alexander Hanff

Alexander,

Sorry if I'm being thick, but I have always considered myself, as a private individual, to be a BT Retail customer, along with those other private individuals on those 3756 exchanges who will be affected.

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=dallan;34533743]BT is split into different sectionis there is BT wholesale that supplies internet to smaller ISPs. This is where people pay such as Aquiss, Ident Fast.co.uk for the internet not BT.

BT retail where customers pay them for the BB connection.

The latest split was openreach who deal with faults reconnection of BT lines etc

Then you have LLU

BT can put phorm on their Retail section but it would be illegal for them to do this to the Wholesale section or LLU sections as the customers are not officially BT customers.

---------- Post added at 20:53 ---------- Previous post was at 20:53 ----------

Thank you Alexander.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The big expensive one has come down to 87 quid. I will use the gift voucher one of the users here sent me and snag that one tomorrow whilst the price is so low.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Who would like ot join forces with me to get Alexander the "The Law of Human Rights: 2-Volume Set: AND First Annual Updating Supplement (Hardcover)"
With postage £90
If 6 share it works out at £15.

Mick or a cable forum Moderator please be banker for us and order when you have the money from everyone please.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I said above I can put the £20 gift voucher towards it that one of the users here sent. I already have the second supplement which someone kindly purchased, so this book will complete that set. It is probably the most important one for me to get too for long term use.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes - put me down for £15 towards that.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could you pm me your email address so I can send an email gift certificate that you can also use to help buy this book

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'll send an email certificate too for £15, please PM me your email address, this will help to wards that big un :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

anyine wanting to help with this book please ask Alexander in the thread to PM you is email address then you can send him an email gift voucher for the money then Alexander can order the book using everyones gift vouchers.

Already sent mine as soon as Amozon sends it on but ordered hope that helps.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Doh! Because the book was coming from a 3rd party I couldn't use gift certs with it. I have purchased it myself on my card as it is too good a price not to buy and will put the certificates towards some of the other remaining books.

Thanks everyone.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hear your point Alexander but I think a "confused" situation probably benefits US more than it benefits the Phorm/Webwise/ISP end.

For example, my sites have a text statement banning Webwise. Because I've been making a nuisance of myself with my own ISP BT, and told them they did NOT have my consent to profile my data exchange with visitors, they have voluntarily added me to their blocklist.

But I haven't told VM or Talk Talk. And I don't expect BT to tell them, I haven't given them permission to do so. So VM and TalkTalk will have to work out their own way of noting my body text ban on Webwise as no one is providing robots.txt or meta-tag methods of banning Webwise and no one is actually thinking of how to ASK webmasters for consent. So I can still watch out for Webwise visits when the system goes live (which I hope it never will).

I'm choosing not to correspond with VM or TalkTalk which is my choice. It will be interesting to see what happens.

I actually don't think BT can honour that offer to individually add sites to their blocklist - they'd be swamped and they don't have the infrastructure to deal with it - I'd love them to discover that quickly - I'm anxious for them to have a really stressful "Webwise ISP management and feedback experience".

but if you think there are genuine legal reasons to avoid this approach then fine - I'm not a lawyer. And I'm still grateful for your advocacy on this!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not a lawyer either but BT would be foolish not to try and circumvent their responsibility by trying to show they have taken reasonable action by allowing sites to contact them to be added to a blacklist. Every site that does this simply adds weight to their argument that it is reasonable action (as the industry can be seen to be accepting it).

Furthermore, if you ask BT to exclude you but don't ask VM/TT to do the same and you do end up taking either of them to court, they can quite easily turn round and say that you should have asked them not to like you have with BT.

It is best to simply not give them even the slightest hint of an argument to use as part of a legal defence.

Remember, no matter how BT or Phorm try to spin it, they need to get your consent; it is their responsibility to obtain that consent, not your responsibility to deny it to them. The right to that privacy is already active under Human Rights law, RIPA and PECR so they cannot assume a default waiver of that right. Adding explicit terms which deny them consent on your web site merely clears up any doubt whatsoever, which is why I am suggesting people do that.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I raised Phorm with my MP when I met her last Tuesday and had a positive response. From the former acquaintances who are now MPs I have received one positive response and one promise of a parliamentary question to the Attorney General over why there has been no prosecution of BT over the 2006 and 2007 trials. So some progress.

I will be updating http://www.inphormationdesk.org this week (last week I was too occupied with the day job, a funeral and the ongoing exchanges with the Home Office). I would like to add a page providing examples of letters. So I would be very grateful if people could email samples (which I can anonymise if necessary) for inclusion. Please send any offerings to action@inphormationdesk.org

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello all,

I am another lurker in the shadows who has been following the Phormgate affair, on this and other sites, for the last month but without any original thoughts to contribute. I still don't but this aspect of profiling children does open up a rich train of thought.

Many users would not give a second thought to the eventual consequences to personal privacy of the unholy alliance of Phorm and ISP and would happily accept the patronizing fluff put out by VM and the BT equivalent.

If, however an emphasis was put on the profiling of children they may well view Phorm in a different light. Would it be too strong a comment to say that targeting children would be a lucrative approach from the point of view of advertisers? All parents know the strength of pester power.:cry: Also (unworthy thought) this slant would probably appeal far more to the mass media than the more esoteric technical aspects on which much of the anti-Phorm case is based.

With, possibly, one or two exceptions the national dailies do not have the mindset nor a target audience to appreciate just what it is that Phorm is capable of with the ISP's connivance. A threat to children is another matter.

My two pence for what it's worth.


Martin

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Alexander my first idea was perhaps thje best to have got everyone to send the money one of the forum moderators. NM I am sure there is still plenty on amozon you can spend the vouchers on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK I have some great news :)

I just received an email from the Earl of Northesk. He has explained that he will not be back in the country until early May but would be happy to meet me upon his return to discuss the Phorm "scandal" (his words ;) ). He also said if we want to compile a list of relevant questions for him to put forward to both the Home Office and Government in general, he would be happy to do so.

In response I have told him I will put together a focus group in order to do this and forward the questions to him in due course.

So tomorrow (it is a little late now) we can start putting these questions together and anyone interested in taking part, please let me know.

It might be better to start a new thread so questions don't get lost in the daily flow of this thread.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wooooooooooohoooooooooooooo Alexander! Thats fantastic news. Well done.

Regarding some kind of donation, as I said last time this issue was alive, I am absolutely stone broke this month but wont be next month. Can I have your email address so I can email you a gift certificate next month? Thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is'nt it time to start keeping our cards close to our collective chests now?
Discussing this in open forum is great, but it does give Phorm an unfair advantage (not that they know how to operate in any other way)
Is it now time to create a private group to compile these questions that is comprised of trusted members? I realise it restricts the debate a little, but I think most people are of the view that a concerted, co-ordinated policy is now needed and a bit of rabble-rousing on a forum, whilst certainly cathartic, isn't necessarily the best way.
Once the group members have been decided upon, other members can submit suggested questions to them for inclusion via PM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will ask the admin for a private forum area to discuss the questions or we can do it on irc.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ICO / Phorm spin version 3.

On friday 18th the ICO issued a revised statment abour Phorm.

http://www.ico.gov.uk/about_us/news_...e_and_oie.aspx

Yet again they have missed the point, it is our data, nobody has the right to intercept that datastream.

The ICO is not fit for purpose.

They miss the point on RIPA and refuse to even look at the matter.

They miss th epoint on the original Home Office Statemment.

They miss the point on this whole sorry system.

This is not a tootless watchdog, it is one with its mouth wired up and lips sown together.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a long way to go yet and the new statement goes even further to emphasise informed consent and recognises the reports and concerns of experts such as Dr Richard Clayton, so this is not a bad result for the public and does nothing to strengthen Phorm's position.

I agree, the IC is a bloody idiot, but don't look on this latest version as a completely negative thing.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

IRC is an excellent idea. We could make the channel invite only too and only tell people the channel name via private message and that way we can ensure that PhormPRTeam cannot snoop on the plans. Their activities on badphorm vis-a-vis the user pages has me a little concerned as to what they are up to.

I keep mIRC connected to undernet 24/7 anyway. Its one of my hobbies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have been hanging out on undernet for 11 years, gimmie a shout, nick is Paladine.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ah another long-time undernet user. I have been going to undernet on and off for about 10 years or there abouts. Will message you on IRC in a few minutes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wouldn't setting up an IRC channel be discrimitory in some way against those who are less technically adept? I don't think we need to take this in the direction of the more net savvy users at the expense of the users whose less technical concerns are those we are trying to court.
Ease of input and engagement for all should be a prime concern and not all forum members with something valuable to contribute to the list of questions may be able to join an IRC chat. This is why I suggested a private forum area. It is a format everyone here is comfortable with and capable of easy access.
In addition, people posting from work (like me) will more often than not have IRC chat blocked.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Naaaah there is a good web based client on mibbit.com seems to work for most people at work as it is ajax based and all done over http. And you don't need to be a geek to use irc.

But I don't mind to be honest, whatever most people are comfortable with.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok thats fair enough. You raise some good points especially vis-a-vis those not technically adept and the IRC blocked at work issue.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 ----------

Not only that but there is chatzilla as well which is a firefox addon. Maybe we could do both? A chat channel on IRC for those able and willing to do it and also a private forum. The main reason I suggested IRC was that it does give us more control. We could more easily ensure that Phorm were not able to join and gain an advantage.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I tried to avoid using the "g"-word, but as you have now brought it into play, yes I think that is the perception of many. IRC is geek territory:)

We don't want to come across as a minority geek faction. Everyone, including their granny should be able to contribute.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was just talking to a 63 yr old man who was on the original arpanet team waaay back. People of all ages use IRC, but like I said, I don't mind either way.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, you should take this as a compliment. They seem to be using your research to tell what regulations are applicable.

Seriously though, this statement from the ICO is a step in the right direction. Every piece of further scrutiny makes life harder for Phorm/Webwise.

Also, a vote in favour of a private forum rather than IRC. Work would not be happy with me running an IRC client.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

After the shennanigans at badphorm i think irc is probably the way to go in the final question forming stage but keeping the discussions and input on this thread to allow access for all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok, I accept a private forum would be easier for most people but how do we stop Phorm PRTeam or Phorm employees from accessing that forum? Permissions that block newly registered users from accessing the private forum?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed, I just tried to connect using Alexander's mibbit suggestion and it was blocked.

Have the private forum area set up as invite only with a friendly CF team member (aren't they all?) willing to allow permissions to a select few who will debate and screen questions submitted to them by PM's from all other members.

Keep it a small group (<10?) of members who are known to be genuine.
I'm unsure how progress could be reflected to the community at large though, irrespective of the approach used.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to head out now. I will be back this afternoon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK i know they don't seem that bright (going through user profiles at badphorm using their phormpr user name:dunce:) but we can't rule out the possibility that both their brain cells may have collided in the past couple of months and registered under another (rather more anonymous user name).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I hope you aren't suggesting that they would consider operating in a less than transparent and underhand manner:shocked:
Being an ex-spyware (current?) pedaller, I'm sure the thought never entered their heads. I believe them to be totally above reproach:rolleyes:

(awaits quote by PhormPR on another forum taking my last sentence above totally out of context and saying CF members give Webwise the green light)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...even one of our harshest critics admits we are honest and trustworthy...
"I believe them to be totally above reproach"

yeh you can see it coming.:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Is IRC popular nowadays? I gave up on it years ago (OK many years ago - when I was using an Amiga :shocked:) as I never really got on with it and I'm generally known to be in the geek class (but hey, geek's the new chic right? :p:) With my reservations and those outlined by others I'm not sure it's the best way for an inclusive but private discussion, so to quote an advert "there must be a better way":rolleyes:

BTW well done Alexander with getting a meeting with the Earl of Northesk this could be a very productive avenue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry, dav, while I can understand (partly) the reasons some people think this fight needs to go underground, I really think a lot of forum members are going to be upset when they see suggestions like "invite only", "select few", "screen questions" and "known to be genuine" with regards to those who will take this fight forward for us.

Who and how is it going to be decided who our 'select, genuine' representatives are to be? Post count? Techie knowledge? Legal knowledge?

Apologies, but it has to be asked.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed - I think it's counterproductive to move substantive discussion to some kind of secretive "inner circle". It's far better to keep everything out in the open: Phorm have already tried to dismiss a general feeling of mistrust amongst customers (as shown on every single comments page of any story about their technology, the public response has been overwhelmingly negative) as a minority pressure group. I'd say setting up secretive discussion fora plays right into their hands on this one.

Not that there's anything wrong with discussing on IRC, but I'd say the group still needs to be open rather than password/invite-only.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not suggesting it should be secretive I am open to what people want to do, my original suggestion was just a separate thread so we don't get the questions lost in the daily traffic on this thread.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps the questions in this thread but also pmed to you so they can be lost within the thread since you would have your personal copy of the questions. Give the phorm spies more to dig throught to find them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I feel one reason why this thread has been such a success is that it is in a mainstream forum, is visible to everyone, and anyone can register here.

However, one of the drawbacks of this openness is that Phorm are watching our every move. Not good!

I've been following this thread since the start, have conversed with some people via pm, and seen posts on other forums from members here. I've got a pretty good idea who I would nominate to represent me on this working party.


Edit: That's ok, if people are happy with the lack of privacy. After all, so far everything has been in the open and look how much we have achieved!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have emailed amozon today to see what there reactions to phorm are, and if they would class this as breaking there terms and conditions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OldBear/Barkotron:

Fair do's. I was merely suggesting that we stop telegraphing our intentions so openly and giving Phorm time to prepare their counterspin. It is clear they have moved their focus away from convincing us here that Webwise is a good thing and are now just monitoring us (should we expect anything less from them?)

Anyway, my suggestion was only related to Alexanders news that he is to meet with the Earl of Northesk and the list of points they were to discuss. I'm sure most of these are now in the public domain anyway, but if there was some absolute Webwise-killer that someone came up with it may be best to keep it on the QT until it has been confirmed as such and then hit them with it at such a time to give them minimum wriggle-room.

No biggie.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oldbear while I can definately empathise with your points there is an issue that Phorm have a significant advantage in that they can sit here and monitor our plans, our activities and the legal points/questions. Their previous activities on the badphorm site re the badphorm user page is a worrying development.

The suggestion of a private forum/IRC channel was not to negate discussion here but to try and prevent Phorm from leveraging that significant advantage when it comes to the questions we put forward to the Earl of Northesk for his meeting with Alexander.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The suggestion of an 'inner circle' is pure idiocy. If some members want to chat in secret then carry on, but this forums' strength is in the volume and complexity of contributions by a wide range of people. Let Phorm read it all. Let them know that opposition is not abating; let them know what they face if their technology is deployed. Some kind of covert geek group will not successfully take this forward as will sheer numbers, with or without masks. Good grief.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Easy, Kursk. Turn it down a bit.
I'll try to explain what was being proposed and why....

It wasn't to exclude anyone from the general discussion, but was to provide a PhormPR-free way of presenting member's concerns to the Earl of Northesk through Alexander. As he, no doubt, would need clarification and discussion with others the suggestion was to try and find some way of doing this with others who wanted to participate and get involved with this process.
I tell you what...forget it. The next time I'm in a position to take a penalty kick, I'll just tell the goalie where I'm going to put it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I said this thread grows so fast if the questions were posted and PMed to Alexander he wouldn't miss them and the chances Phorm spies would has increased..

The more people show they are actively still fighting phorm the better for all concerned.

Alexander has managed a small miracle in a very short time we are very fortunate that Alexander is fighting our corner with us.
I had high hopes for 18/20 and still hope they see the error of the ways phorm will profile, log and intercept our online experience then they might join forces with us and fight for the persons right to continue to have Internet supplied by the supplier as it always was just a connection to the WWW not somehtin sniffed into to reap benefits when after all we have already paid them to allow us to your the internet for our own pleasure/searches...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ok class is done for the day but I seriously need a nap after being up all night again, so I will see you all this evening. If people want to come up with some questions or start the ball rolling, please do so and we can discuss them.

It is important to try and get very comprehensive and focused questions together, we don't want to be wasting the Earl of Northesk's time so the better the questions, the more chance we have of them being heard and hopefully answered.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have noticed one webdesigner is desparate to stop phorm phishing his website and going as far as gathering IP banks fro BT to block them all from his webspace using .htaccess he is plannig on doing the same with Talktalk and VM.

This is drastic action but as he says his website has pages that ppl login on and he doesn't want anyone piggy backing on the members connectioin reading the pages.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed. The point of a separate irc/private forum would be to formalize the questions to the Earl of Northesk in a (temporary?) important side issue from the main forum.

The issues would still continue to be debated here, and the same questions asked openly but without giving phorm or the ISP's involved prior notice of our detailed intentions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Before I go, interesting to see "Carol and Son" on iii talk about the middle east and the US with regards to being easier for Phorm to exist than the UK. Maybe someone should point out to here that the telco's in the US are already facing significant legal action as a result of the wiretaps they did for the FBI without the relevant documentation. So if she thinks the US are going to sit back in the current light of things and allow the ISPs (run by the same telecoms companies) to wire-tap for commercial use, when the President himself is being chastised for illegal wire-taps, she has another thing coming.

It would actually be more difficult to roll Phorm out in the US than it would in the UK right now, why do you think they have targeted the UK first :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Probably my fault as I did in one of my posts there raise the spectre that phorm may find it easier in the US than the UK. Will make sure to include your points in a post there if no one has beat me to it. Get some sleep, alexander :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh and don't let the share movement today worry you, it has not been a significant swing and we have BBC "Click" coming later this week. Me vs Kent and we know how much the people love an underdog :)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As many know I have moved to ADSL even though my cable will not stop until next month..

I had my last phone bill they owe me 51pence lol wonder if I will ever see it..

More to the point of this post included in the bill was a leaflet last page ask a question..
the leaflet goes on to say this is suported by Tech suport does this mean I call the 09 number for support :)
Well had a good laugh at the leaflet migh scan it later to start a thread to tear apart click as it is called...

Surelly with pcguard VM dont need Phorm or is Phorm another name for PCguard..

Either way what use is the security when thye sell you out to the spy king from a few years back..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a thought, it might be silly (I'm good at them) We have been promoting OPT-In or no phorm at all for Users but surely Website owners should be OPT-In too. So if the website does nothing, then it is by default opted out! That would screw it all completely.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had forgotten all about click. Thats put a smile back on my face.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Smaller English speaking market where rolling out to 3 ISPs covers a significant percentage of the market, though Wiki puts it at about 85%. Per Wiki 10% for TT. 35% for VM and 40% for BT.

Now you have 85% of the user base (on an opt out basis) so say 75% of the user base you can go to your advertisers and say to them, how would you like to provide targeted marketing to 75% of the internet users in this country.

To do that in the US would require buy in from ATT and many other baby bells for the ADSL, Verizon (ADSL and FIOS), Time Warner, ComCast, Cablevision would capture some big areas and then well this lot.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._United_States
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor..._United_States
Now I admit that will cover the US in the same way that adding France Telecom and other big European companies would cover Europe but then you get into the complexities of serving multiple languages and in the US you would be pitching to national companies wanting to target ads nationally.

With reference to the US privacy issues these are some basic background...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NSA_war...ce_controversy
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepting_v._AT%26T

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well yippee do da, I've had a reply from my MEP !

Excellent reply. Looks like she's fully aware of the current situation - and firmly on our side.

"The UK Information Commissioner has clarified this to an extent, ruling that internet users must opt-in to Phorm rather than opt-out, which is encouraging - especially as far as less experienced internet users are concerned."

I really can't see how Phorm, BT or anyone else can continue to say that their opt-out process meets legislation. Even My MEP has interpreted the ICO as saying it must be opt-in!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Postie just delivered another 4 books, thanks everyone.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Apologies, fellas; I missed the point about this 'side forum' as a method of discussing this one point (Alexander and the Earl), and thought you were suggesting an elite task force to take over the whole issue on the forum's/public's behalf, something I and, I'm sure, other members would not be too happy to see.

It was not my intention to start any sort of division in the ranks, as I do think we need to stand together against these people.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That sure is a positive response Manxminx. I was interested to see her mention Liz Lynne in her reply to you, as I got in touch with her at the end of last month. She told me then that she would be writing to Ofcom, and also to Baroness Ashton of Upholland, the Minister responsible for Information rights and Data protection and she would get back to me when she had their replies.

It seems our Lords and MEP's are far more interested in the effects of Phorm than the majority of our MP's.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No apology necessary as far as I am concerned Oldbear.

---------- Post added at 15:39 ---------- Previous post was at 15:37 ----------

Sadly, I have to concur. My MP didn't even acknowledge my letter yet two MEPs did respond. One quite favourably.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:tu: Ditto

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The stuff I have read from BT states that Webwise/Phorm will NOT be going past login pages. BUT - along with a number of other replies, about ignoring "sensitive" areas, (religion, medicine etc.) they have not explained HOW, and until they do, I don't trust them. Others have indicated that avoiding sensitive areas could just mean that there aren't any "channels" at the Phorm end for ads for those areas, doesn't mean they aren't profiling those religious or medical sites in the first place. And who'se to say they might not decide that they will introduce such channels later - it wouldn't be difficult once they had got legal approval for the basic system - it would be very difficult to stop them simply creeping it to include more ad channels. Where would the Rubicon be there?

My bottom line is still that each of the unique data exchanges between my EACH of my individual site users and my site is unique, personal, and not Phorm/Webwise's property. They are not entitled to intercept it, redirect it, snoop on it, mirror it, categorise it or profit from it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done manxminx! I note that:

In fact under RIPA it is the unlawful interception of data which is the offence (unless that interception has lawful authority), not how the interceptor uses or intends to use that data.

We need to keep this point on the agenda.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've said this a number of times. They probably are compliant with DPA, it is RIPA and the rest of the mining process to come up with the data they keep that is the problem. Phorm consistently spins back to what they keep, not how they obtain it to try to obfuscate the issue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed it desnt matter what BT did with it they intercepted your data, browsing without lawfull consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Afternoon all .. just thought I'd chime in here!

I've been following this thread for a couple of weeks now I suppose .. first I have to say a big thank you to certain folks who are doing a fantastic job here, especially Alexander for his magnificent efforts and others such as OF1975, Portly_Giraffe, Florence, dav ... many more too (sorry if I've missed anybody out, but you know who you are!!)

I've been posting at various forums I frequent as I go around, spreading the word .. some people seem to be quite happy, thinking with a tweak here or there everything will be fine .. completely missing the main point! .. sad really ..

Yesterday I used the writetothem.com site to send a message to both my local councilors and MP .. and guess what!! .. got this in the mail this morning

.................................................. ..................................
Thank you for your email to my office, received yesterday.

I wanted to drop you a short note to let you know that I have raised this issue with John Hutton, the Secretary of State at the Department for Business, Enterprise, and Regulatory Reform and I am hopeful that John will be in a position to reply very soon.

It’s obviously quite a complicated issue and I have to admit it’s not something that I am all that familiar with!
Nonetheless, I will certainly chase it up for you and see what response we can get. Recent problems at HMRC et al really ought to be a wake up call to everyone about data security, so you’re absolutely right to raise the issue. The idea of one company having unlimited access to such huge amounts of potentially sensitive data is terrifying. We let people order prescriptions online, bank online, buy a house, sell a car; it seems madness to potentially expose these details to a private operation that exists simply to sell online advertising.

Please rest assured that I will be in touch when I receive a reply from John Hutton or another member of his ministerial team. BERR are not always the quickest department to reply, I’m afraid, so if you haven’t heard back in a few weeks then please let me know and I will give them a push.

Thanks again for getting in touch. I look forward to receiving (and hopefully understanding!) John Hutton’s reply.

Yours Sincerely,

Paul Clark MP
.................................................. ................

Paul Clark is not only our MP here in Gillingham, Kent .. he is also Parliamentary Private Secretary to Ed Balls, MP, the new Secretary of State for Children, Schools and Families .. so there may be another avenue of approach there! .. hats off to Paul for possibly the speediest reply from a minister ever!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My god,

that is a hell of a reply from Paul Clark - lets hope his actions match his words.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well that's certainly a positive reply Wild Oscar, it's a pity some other MP's don't see the Phorm threat the same way.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would it be possible to have some code added to a website page which checked if the spoofed Phorm cookie was present for our websites domain? If it is possible, we could pop up a message such as "Security Alert: Do you realise your ISP is recording details of every webpage you visit in order to provide you with targeted adverts". We could use own own cookie to make sure visitors only received the message once per session and only BT/VM/TT visitors who had not opted out would receive the message.

If it's possible to do this it would be more effective than blanket blocking all users of the ISPs.