Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...-snooping.html

---------- Post added at 13:54 ---------- Previous post was at 13:26 ----------

Still no update from Alex!

What's going on, Alex? Share some news!...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

www2= 217.32.165.135
217.32.164.0-217.32.167.255 BT-IGNITE Content Hosting

So it seems there is a copy of the webwise materials on an internal BT controlled server (Sandridge North London).

Then there is the whole range of domains hosted at Gyron in London... bt.webwise.com, webwise.bt.com (plus all the other Phorm domains). As you say, probably one copy, on two machines (round robin DNS 31/32).

Then there is that lingering server in PSInet in the USA which also holds a copy of the webwise materials.

?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex is probably giving them more time to reply but did you spot this in one of his latest posts.

I have to go to work now but I will update the NoDPI web site tomorrow with the details of the call.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, and it is tomorrow. :)

OK, I'll settle down...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

well thankfully, the courts and the bench are the people that are best qualifyed to Judge on the question of suffering and harm, not you as a private person.

the judges have reams of documents and ruleings going back centurys to help them come to a reasonable and ballanced view based on justice, not how much money you the victim have.

as for the "they could not allocate" that again seems to be taken out of context as it seems clear they chose not to allocate personel in your case, but given enough words in the righ ears they surely would have allocated personel to any case that serves the public interest and justice on the wide scale.

you chose not to accept that this case has effected a large section of the public and private firms world wide and that is your right.

as for your stance that only the rich people and faceless companys in a position to be able to have 1million riped off in the first place, get access to justice, while others that will never even see anything like that 1million+ written down in their books cant, stinks, but again you are entitaled to have that minority view if you so wish.

OC you also make the obvious wrong assumption that these faceless compays when they break our laws cant also be held accountable, and more to the point, the real people inside them can and ARE able to be held accountable for their unlawful actions, as can be seen in the likes of the top Uk executive stansford case.

being a high ranking executive inside a company that can afford to keep 1million+ in the bank doesnt help you
when your stood infront of the judge that got his BT BB line wiretapped (and there are sure to be a lot of them given the No.s and areas covered in the trials), and the court ordered findings of facts point to you directly as the person in charge that authorised these unlawful RIPA etc wiretaps and related offences does it.

OC it doesnt, that just makes the effected sitting judge and his peers look that much harder at the existing case law and rules/guidence to make sure you serve the right longest term and recompense for your crimes as any other rich or poor person might expect in a court of law.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Back in the old days when BT cookies leaked like a sieve, and Phorm handled BT webwise enquiries on the sly (collecting PII from the leaky cookies on the way, my DPA statutory request pending)... and theplanet.com and fasthosts and godaddy.com were the hosts of choice (not listed in Safe Harbor agreement) for handling BT customer PII (sigh) - I asked BT if perhaps they could mirror the BT Webwise pages on something approximating to a UK/EU controlled location within their domain. They then produced a UK mirror and changed the enquiry handling to custhelp.com.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just stay out of trouble in future and you'll be okay.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well I tried to give the officer in charge another opportunity today to change his position but he has failed to do so and has given his permission for me to publish the audio fom the calls. It is quite shocking and I really don't want to ruin his career but since he is refusing to change his stance I have little choice.

I have forwarded the info to Chris Williams to see if he wants to do an article on it and I won't publish the details until i get a response from Chris (he is in a much better position to get the news out via an article).

I worked until 4am this morning so I was sleeping til shortly after lunch and have been battling my internet issues again since I got up. Which is why I haven't responded until now.

I will say one thing though, once the information is released the proverbial is going to hit the proverbial and I think it is likely to guarantee BT will be charged once the storm eases.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.out-law.com/page-9348

ryanair is cancelling all flights booked by screen scrapers, says quicker remedy than courts

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see the article specifically mentions website copyright issues in connection with the successful court case so it may have relevance to the website copyright issues being discussed in connection with Webwise/Phorm.

"***** believes these ..... are nothing more than video or software pirates and we will continue to campaign across Europe for legislation to prohibit this unlawful ****** and this breach of copyright laws, which will prevent these profiteering middlemen from engaging in the mis-selling of *****’s *** and information," said *****'s Michael Cawley after the Vtours ruling.

and

*****'s Irish case against ***** says that that company breaks laws on trade marks and copyright and that its use of *****'s content to sell its services amounts to 'passing off'.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone got a direct link to the Home Office report on Phorm please, I appear to have misplaced it.

[Edit] Its ok I got it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm back..............

Come on Alex - give us a clue !

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This one?

http://cryptome.org/ho-phorm.htm

edit: doh!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have given the police until 5pm to reconsider their statement.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see, does awfully remind me of the start of a Neville Chamberlain speech !

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK lets keep to the topic please and stop the baiting of other CF members.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Told my sister about BT-Phorm-Webwise, 1 hour and 20 mins later she has asked for her mac and is moving her broadband :tu:.

These are her words on it. They can sod off.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A warm welcome to the 45 guests who are here this afternoon. Welcome to this thread, focussed firmly on the topic of Phorm, Webwise, and Advertising. We hope you find the discussion informative although it can get quite confusing at times.
:welcome:

The news over the last day or two has mostly been around website copyright with some significant legal cases in the headlines that may have a bearing on the Webwise/Phorm model for intercepting traffic between website visitors and website, involving as it does, copying and then exploiting for commercial gain, the intellectual content of web pages.

There have also been developments relating to copyright questions around the licensing of Open Source software that may also have a bearing on Webwise.

Encouragingly the debate about Phorm has started to widen, with the issues being raised in the US Congress, and the EU and beginning to get coverage in mainstream media. Our government is overdue with it's answers to a series of questions from the EU Commission, about the covert and probably illegal trials of Webwise in 2006 and 2007 by BT. It also seems that Webwise was covertly trialled in the US in 2005. All these trials apparently took place without the consent of the ISP customers who whose data traffic was being intercepted and profiled.

Visitors new to the topic can find a few useful links in my post 11849

We hope you will return and even better, participate in the debate, and begin to campaign against this intrusive new technology.

If you run a business or run an e-commerce site have a look at this Open Letter.
If you simply use the internet as a (hopefully) private citizen, read this flyer. Feel free to distribute these around your friends and contacts if you agree with their contents.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I seems that Phorm may know a bit more Internal BT Information than BT intended?

http://beta.bt.com/bta/forums/thread...=1740&tstart=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Petition; 16,994

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here you all go:

https://nodpi.org/2008/08/15/city-of...ed-to-enforce/

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex's report is up:

https://nodpi.org/2008/08/15/city-of...ed-to-enforce/

---------- Post added at 17:57 ---------- Previous post was at 17:47 ----------

Alex-

Maybe you should write to the EU and let them know that the authorities can't or won't even properly interpret their own laws?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I will be contacting Commissioner Reding on Monday.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My take on the first call Alex, is that until you mentioned RIPA, he didn't seem actually have a single fact about the issue to hand. When you mentioned RIPA he then used a stock answer - "RIPA doesn't cover BT".
When you rang the second time, he didn't seem to know about the contents of your email.

There was every evidence there of a lack of acquaintance with the detail, which may have led to the clear reluctance to discuss the detail during the call, rather requesting everything in writing - surely he already HAD the case file with everything in writing? Or maybe not....

I really do wonder how much of the file or the email had been read.

I think this sounds extremely hopeful, although it must have been irritating for you personally. It's going to be a slow slow job, but this one will run through to the bitter end, with a lot of public humiliation for various people who have been unwise enough to make assumptions about the guillibility of the public.

What the police seem to have done, is invite the glare of the spotlight to shine brightly on the whole investigation. Not a clever move. It's going to have to be a broadly focussed spotlight, to include them and all the BT executives who are potentially liable for the actions taken by them in 2006 and 2007 - but it will do us no harm for the whole thing to attract more media attention.

Well done Alex. It's going according to plan IMHO.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nicholas Bohm of the FIPR might be interested as well.

Meanwhile, the rest of us should contact the press and link to the article, methinks...

arstechnica seems like a likely candidate...

---------- Post added at 18:18 ---------- Previous post was at 18:16 ----------

arstechnica has been contacted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Feel free to Digg it and Slashdot it. I am off to work shortly.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Three words...

Police Complaints Commission.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Four words...

Independent Police Complaints Commission </pedant>

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've been doing the rounds... anyone have a Slashdot account?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Someone beat me to it

http://digg.com/security/City_of_Lon...d_privacy_laws

Remember to cut and pate this link into your browser, or it gets buried

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding Crime Reference Number 5253/08:

Just in case the attributions are needed over and above what RIPA itself states:

The Home Office have confirmed publicly that anyone can commit an offence under RIPA:
(Indeed it was Simon who proposed this precise wording).
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post4308.html

For examples of this in practice, see the Goodman and Mulcaire case:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2007...andpublishing1

and the Stanford case:
http://www.lawdit.co.uk/reading_room...20Stanford.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is the most tedious, ridiculous and pointless thread on any forum, ever.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Long, yes. Ridiculous and pointless, no.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Alex,

After listening to the calls I think it is a shocking state of affairs and it makes me very angry that the police appear to be sweeping the whole issue under the carpet, so to speak. This issue will not go away and dithering Brown and the police would do well to realise this and prompt some action. It is only a matter of time.

Seriously, it's about time the leaders of this country got off their backsides and start to help the police to protect the citizens of this country in the many ways they are not able to. Lets face it, the buck stops there!

Truthfully, I have only ever placed my cross alongside one party on any political ballot sheet in many years of voting. It will change for certain at the next opportunity I get.

I am absolutely sick to the back teeth of this indecisive bunch of people parasites who are living of the backs of the people of this nation and still want to call themselves a government.

Rant over, back to Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

...and yet you had to join in :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't be angry with the police. You have to go higher up than that to find people to be angry with.

It is crystal clear that DS Murray does not understand RIPA, or is being told to give information that he is not comfortable with.

Look. I think this is the second best outcome. The team at Information Society and Media DG will sort this out.

They now have the following 'evidence'

A British government department which can not / will not give an opinion.
A British government agency which will not dish out punishment.
A British law enforcement establishment which refuses to investigate.

Three strikes.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On the other hand, ISPs who reject such systems will benefit. It is so good to have a premium ADSL supply from one such ISP.

The big problem will be when the quality ISPs have thousands of people signing up with them all at once - pipes cost money and they will be needing the pipes before they have the cash flow to pay for them. (Anyone who wants to move should consider this when deciding on when to move.)

It makes much more sense for all ISPs to be conduits of data who respect their customers.

(I did not want to put everything into the list, else someone may comment in the future that all requirements have been met.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.p2pnet.net/story/16745

Now I am off to work for 10 hours.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Totally agree, and not only good sense but also common sense.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex - congratulations on staying calm in the face of such hostility.
Certain institutions record phone calls for 'training purposes' - I rather hope that the recording of that one winds up in the 'how not to behave' pile :P

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just emailed the CoL Police regarding your story, and his outrageous attitude.

http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/CityPolice/Contact/

I chose the Professional Standards Directorate to aim my complaint at.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having just listened to your first audio, I think you behaved disgracefully to be quite honest. Quite apart from whether the officer in question understands RIPA or not, there is no excuse for you trying to verbally browbeat him ('talk me down', was how he put it to you, and he's right, that's exactly what you were doing); you failed to take on board his legitimate point that you could have been just *anybody*, the police get nutters and timewasters on the phone all the time; and finally, when he stated that he was ending the call due, apparently, to your complete lack of civility towards him, it's outrageous of you to *wilfully* misinterpret his actions by stating that he was therefore refusing to discuss the issue.

It seems to me that you went out looking for something that would sound sensational on your grotty little blog and win you kudos among the phorm-hat3rz on this and other forums. You weren't talking to him and you sure as hell weren't listening to him, you were thinking only of how great it would make you sound.

The whole thing reeks of a late night, local radio telephone prank call. Except without being funny.

Bad show.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So you would class me as being one of these? Personally I don't give a dam about Alex and his street credibility. I do care about someone effectively spying on myself and others in my family. I take exception that someone in your shoes can say what you have just said without recourse. I hope you get the recognition that you are so blatantly after.

In fact I will nominate your post for an Oscar, because to be quite honest, it's the biggest and most over critical response I have ever seen any moderator on here perform.

And to think we get told off for baiting people.

The Policeman could have at least attempted to verify who Alex was, it's not as if Alex didn't include his phone number with the report, and afterall, the Police have CLI

All that Policeman achieved was to make the CoL Police look stupid, and incompetent - He obviously hadn't read the report whatsoever. That's of course if I am allowed to have an opinion, and not be classed (in your eyes) as an Alex's backside licker.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What is disgraceful is a moderator posting a provocative thread knowing full well that Alex will not be around for 10 hours and will not be able to defend himself.

"grotty little blog"

Bad show indeed. Grow up man.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not only that, but he is not the first mod to post similar remarks on this thread with apparent immunity, though I think the previous one did eventually get deleted, along with all posts discussing it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Exactly. I didn't post here for a while after the zinglebarb incident.

Now we have another moderator abusing their position of power.

Who the hell moderates the mod's?

Is this the way Frank Whitestone wanted it to be?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't know who or what you are, and I don't really care.

Nor do I. I think Alex does though.

A point I didn't raise in my post, so not really relevant in your reply to me.

All of the team on this site are free to comment in any thread. And we don't do it for recognition, most of us have been here far too long to give a fig what people think of us. Me included.

No, it's not overcritical, it's simply a response that runs contrary to the pack mentality in evidence throughout this thread. Freedom of speech, within the forum rules, means you take criticism as well as dishing it out. Something a lot of posters in here need to bear in mind.

Yes, baiters get told off. And the moderators are moderators because they have proved that they can tell what's baiting and what's reasonable expression of an unpopular opinion.

Actually the issue of 'who Alex was' didn't really come in to that conversation until after Alex's rather patronizing insistence that the copper doesn't understand RIPA. Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't, but if you want to form a productive relationship with someone, you don't go about it by implying they don't know their job. Nor do you do it by threatening to go running off to the Press. That is the precise moment when the DS got hostile, and frankly with good reason. Prior to that, I reject Alex's analysis that the DS was 'hostile'. He wasn't. He was circumspect, professional and guarded, given that he had no idea who he was talking to, and no way of performing adequate background checks during the course of the conversation. There's more to it than simply knowing someone's phone number.

In your opinion.

Yes, you are.

Your words, not mine.


You appear to have formed the impression that there's a rule on this forum that you don't reply to someone if they're not online to reply to you.

You need to know that you are wrong about that.

My opinion. Get over it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have reported that post - it is an offensive and personal attack on a forum member and his suggestion that I and other members would be impressed by bad behaviour is disgusting.

Coming from a moderator it is totally unforgivable and I hope that other echo my sentiments.

I call for him to be removed from the forum immediately and permanantly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ahh you are on an ego trip then. What's next banning me?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I find your comments simply outrageous and feel that you should be removed as a moderator by your fellow SENIOR mods for that blatant attack on Alex.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Moderator or not you are completely out of order and are in breach of forum rules.

Get off the forum and don't come back.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Our staff are allowed their opinions, just like everyone else, it was not posted in a moderator capacity, so the fact he may be one is completely irrelevant.


Sure, just after hell freezes over. :dozey: Get over yourself, no rules were broken. I suggest you stick to the topic, not worry about our moderators.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Peter N. I tried that last time with zinglebarb. It's a waste of time. Ranks close in so to speak.

---

Clearly Chris T has had a BAD DAY and wants to pick a fight.

Go have a whisky man and stop being so spiteful.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm comparing this post to the forum rules, and struggling to get my head round how to reconcile the post, and the rules. I hope we can continue to discuss Phorm, Webwise and Adverts without baiting or hostility or personal comments as we have been so recently advised by a moderator.

I shan't be joining in for a while as the standard has just seriously deteriorated. I'm not reporting this post, as I don't currently feel that would achieve much except probably to my disadvantage. Perhaps those reading can make their own judgements. Good night all and I hope things return to sanity very very soon.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Given his signature, I regard CT's post as just as offensive to contributors to this thread as the previous 'mod's post which referred to us as 'fools'.

---------- Post added at 20:22 ---------- Previous post was at 20:20 ----------

Think I'll join you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

is the same frank that sold out?? :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

... as Paul M has just demonstrated.

There will be one other mod along in a minute to flex muscles. Then mod xxx will restore balance with the thread being locked for 'cooling off'.

If you have followed this thread from the start you will know thy mod allies and thy mod enemies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So will I.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In addition to Paul M's post above...

If you do not agree with our moderating policies, you are not being forced to post here, clear off. Before that decision is made for you. :afire:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bye then.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please don't bore me with irrelevant goodbye's. I don't do soap opera's. :zzz:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Could some semblance of sanity and/or civility be resumed please? A great deal of effort has been put into the construction and flow of this thread and for it to implode in bickering would be a complete travesty.

I'm going to swim against the tide on this one. Please listen calmly.

I feel very uneasy with the public exposure this brings to a member of the Police; this is absolutely not the route for this debate to turn. The Police do a superb job and I do not condone any approach that might affect the reputation of an individual officer or reflect unfavourably on the Police force itself.

A personal plea to Alex: please withdraw the telecons at least; it is in my view an ugly way to do business (and potentially massively damaging to the issue at hand).

Please everyone, think hard about why you are contributing here. There is no need for the bullish attitude. We are exercising our democratic rights and have achieved a great deal. Let's not step into the realms of the ridiculous with this. Please.

And remember, it was a moderator who had the vision to start this thread.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to say my view is very close to that of Kursk, it was totally wrong to give all this public exposure and can only do harm to our case. I have supported the anti-phorm movement for a long time and generally agreed with what has been happening, but publishing details of private conversations is just not on. I also won't be posting for a while, goodnight.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It's odd how people can listen to the same thing yet interpret these things differently isn't it?

Whilst Alex was obviously ready to fight his corner, he was following up on a complaint *he* made. The officer in question didn't exactly cover himself in glory yet you failed to mention that aspect...curious omission.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My tuppence.

We shouldn't pick a public fight with the police. Any decision to launch a criminal investigation of BT is going to be taken at a level much higher than DS.

The conversations should be documented and sent to the EU and IPCC, together with the recordings if needed, but the recordings should be removed from public access. This is possibly material for a formal complaint, not a blog.

Just my opinion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well personal i agree on both sides, i dnt think there should be a fight over the police, but the person attuide sucks so to a degree i think ther eshould be public expsoure, and form personal experaince (wont go into details off what happened but it was a serious offense ) the police done nothing but just ingore hte sutition and that hwat there doign now,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've had another listen to the first call and made my wife listen for an impartial review without any prompting from me and we both agreed that the Detective became agressive in his tone when Alex disagreed with him about RIPA being applicable (The policeman said "I'm telling you it doesn't" to which Alex responded with something like "I have to disagree with you there sir".)

It was at this point the policeman said he wasn't going to discuss it anymore and started telling Alex off for what he {the policeman} had been doing throughout the whole discussion which was interrupting.

After the few heated words and Alex remained calm and said so a couple of times, the policeman did not take the opportunity to remain calm himself and continued to talk as if he was being attacked!

Totally unprofessional imho.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmm

The chief constable probably got together with some colleagues (aka Knights of the Templars Rouge) on the weekly lodge night, and digesting their advice decided to pass it on, not to a department which uses qualified civilian advisors, but one comprising mostly of goon squad plods.

Considering Alex's qualifications there's no chance of him debating the subject on a one to one basis with the officer they passed the case to is there? The police do have officers who are competent - shame they passed the file to one who isn't...

:rolleyes:

Journalist: Do you use outside help such as psychics when investigating crime
Officer: Yes we do, particularly when confessions are in short supply, we find that they are almost always able to get suspects to comply.
Journalist: No, I mean people who can use a pendulum and map to find missing persons or bodies - a psychic
Officer: Oh, I thought you meant a psycho! Yes we use psychics, but only if they're handy with their fists...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree with the comment posted by BetBlowWhistler at 21:14.

I come here for information on Phorm, I do not post, it is not my area of expertise, but I have taken many of the actions recommended here to fight Phorm.

As a stranger, I found your rules regarding politeness rather quaint. But tonight they do not seem to apply, at least not to moderators. "grotty little blog" indeed.

I can go to other sites for information, so Bye

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hi i am new but been reading the thread for quite a while. why are all of you fighting like this? dont you think that Phorm are laughing their heads off right now? your self destruct is exactly what they want and frankly, will validate everything they say about all of you elsewhere.

---------- Post added at 21:09 ---------- Previous post was at 21:05 ----------

this is very immature. how old is everybody?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Absolutely agree. I have been watching this forum for while and felt I had to join tonight to comment on the calls.

I have worked as a staff trainer in a large call centre and the policeman who answered that call acted in a very unprofessional manner - one does not deal with queries from the public - whoever they are - by becoming defensive when questioned. If you do not know the answer to a question (ie the application of RIPA) then you say so and you offer to find out and get back to them - you do not make it up or give what you think might be the answer - this applies whatever industry you work in.

Instead the DS became defensive, which put him on the back foot, and Alex remaining calm and polite just made him more angry.

Unprofessional - simple. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you, sir.
I've not listened to the recordings, so I cannot express an opinion but your interpretation sounds more convincing to me that that expressed earlier.

What I find unsavoury about the earlier post was not the opinion but the provocative and insulting manner it was expressed in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well if BT has there way just now PHORM are probally spying on people and saying oh we want to sue them;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well put.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regarding Alex complaints, how very disappointing. But yet almost identical to the conversations I had with Avon and Somerset Detectives, in April, in Bath and Bristol.

After 7 months of this nonsense, I think I understand what is going on here.

It is time to make a European complaint.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/10.png

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well if they get more complainent they wont be happy ;) UK goverment is already ingoring thme ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Glad to see all the New Members I'm just sorry that the Outburst came at once again such an important point in the debate.

Which I am starting to become very curious about?

I hope some of you find the information useful & feel able to contribute in the future!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have a question are the one that are complaining complained before? or posted before? just wonder if they work for PHORM ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

daisey :welcome: and :gpoint:

I think feelings are running high because it has been frustrating trying to get someone to identify that 'they' are responsible for investigating our complaints. Probably wrongly, the police have been largely ignoring well thought out and justified complaints from members of the public who have issues that they genuinely feel need investigating.

When after seemingly achieving one of our objectives (probably will be dwarfed by the EC issues), the apparent lack of response after one whole month of the police having in their possession a mass of information which obviously had been ignored was frustrating to all concerned. I feel the policeman on the other end of the phone behaved as described by BetBlowWhistler in an earlier post and could have behaved a little better.

If as a result of this episode, the police do pull up their socks and look into the case, perhaps it may well be the kick-start needed. I don't blame the police as I know they are well overworked with meeting ridiculous paperwork targets set by the government, but I feel the issue should have been looked into properly by now.

I still maintain this forum is the best place to voice all our issues. I totally despise the baiting that goes on by certain members but if someone comes here with well thought out pro Phorm arguments there are many people on this forum well qualified to debunk them without resorting to name calling.

I hope we all cool down and sleep on it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Proof, if proof were needed, that if the Police choose to do so they will apply RIPA to civilians... Glenn Mulcaire in 2007.

It helps if the victim is a member of a Royal Family.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anybody asked any members of the RF if they would object if their browsing habits were being intercepted by Phorms WebWise black box?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you know the history here, skip 2 para's...

Welcome new posting members to the forum thread here. Despite the unfortunate post earlier there are some here who are not "phorm-hat3rs" but just think it is wrong to intercept communication without either a legal warrant to do so, or (as required under law) the consent of both parties in the communication.

I have personally tried to report the admission by BT of their interceptions in 2006 & 2007 to my local police service, but they told me it was not their responsibility. They said I had to refer it to The Interception of Communication Commissioner in London (Sir Paul Kennedy). Sir Paul's office said no, it's not us, it IS the police. So I was back to them again. Then they said, you have no evidence you were a victim of the alleged crime and BT having offices in this county is not a reason for us to investigate it, hence no reported crime number.

Today:

Good news, perhaps!

Regular readers of my contrbiution will know I said that I had to help another person with major issues on their BT Broaband which worked for several months and then stopped working. This person saves everything, there's a file or envelope for every item of paperwork. I had a dream a few weeks ago, a dream that the issue included display of "Sysip" on the web browser status bar and far too many similarites to the issues others described.

I remembered in my dream that I was on the phone for long periods of time (holding) and that BT "lost" details of my previous calls. Quite odd.

The good news is... I do now have that evidence. I was indeed a victim during the BT trials. I spend HOURS and HOURS, frustrated during the time I was not hard at work earning a salary, trying to help someone get their PC working as it should with access to the internet which they had enjoyed until the trial started.

I have only acquired this detail today. Dates, times, telephone numbers and IVR details ("Push 1 for x, push 2 for y" etc), names of BT reps, call information, reference numbers, suggested possible causes and how they turned out to be false etc.

BT KNOWS they were running a trial of Phorm/121 Media systems at the time. They know now, and I suspect looking at my notes that the people I dealt with knew at the time (even if it was not the call handling operatives, their senior managers knew). I will be copying and sending to the police as the additional information "As a victim of their interception carried out without legal warrant and without my consent".

If anyone else here has progressed any such report I would like info on the process and their experience.

I am not a "Phorm hater" (capitalisation on proper nouns is important, don't you think?) and although I am sure Alexander gets emotionally engaged because he feels passionately that there is a cause to pursue, I don't think that his blog is in any way grotty. I have not listened to the audio, I don't think I need to, my own experience is that the police service are not equipped to deal with this issue, there are big issues for them to deal with, but they can't just ignore this. And we don't know what decisions are being taken behind the scenes at a higher level...

After my last ditch attempt to progress here, it will be off to the EU and Commissioner Redding.

Existing members here - stay with it. New members, don't drop out because of one bad night. There's always a big negative debate when news which is anti-Phorm is published (don't know why, but it is true, every time)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i totally agree. dont think that there are not tons of people out there, reading this and laughing their heads off.

as for the call to the police issue--why deal with the lowest common denominator. these are big issues. this detective probably could not understand the issues if he tried. i agree that you must go to the european union.

also, these small protests with under a dozen people--they just give phorm lots of ammunition against you. it looked, frankly, silly and as if no one cares about or supports your cause--as if its true when the ceo says you are a small bunch of loud scaremongerers.

it works against you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ok for the newer and not so new members of CF I will link to the sites T&Cs. http://www.cableforum.co.uk/about/21...and-conditions

IN particular I would like to draw everyone's attention to point 6 of the sub section entitled Forum Use.

I would also like to point out that this site exists mainly as a help site for cable users and Phorm is just one part of the whole.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah but remember that just because they were only a small representative group, there are many more who could not be there. I wasn't there and neither were 100+ people I know agree strongly with the point they were making. Then there's 1000's who made the effort to sign the petition (easy to do but requires SOME effort so 16k signatures is not insignificant)

I think if you mean, a small protest looks bad in PR terms, yes perhaps agree with you there -- if not contexted as I have done here. It was not a Saturday after all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Home Office consulting on data retention directives.

---------- Post added at 23:38 ---------- Previous post was at 23:35 ----------

Yes. I've had a reply too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hi Hank
Yes, I do mean that the exercise was TERRIBLE in PR terms. I think that no matter what the intention (and I agree 100% that you have tons of support etc) that you (collective) must try to play on your opponents playing field.... and you are not doing that. Truely, if I was them I would take the photo of Alex Hanff there with three other people and send it straight to every single person i was trying to negotiate with to show them that I (phorm) am correct in saying you guys are a non-entity. also - last and not least- all those signatures are GREAT but what you need is PRESS. Being on the morally correct side is not enough.... you can be right and still the loser.

all i am saying is Be Smart. Play by their rules- not yours.

Otherwise you lose.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done. :clap:

What were the dates? It would be interesting to correlate with other evidence. If you've got scans you're willing to share and upload of notes/screenshots/scans etc that might be valuable.

If I were you I would also send the data to the EC (Ms Reding and Mr Colasanti) on the assumption that the EC are investigating already.

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wrong in this case if we play by their Rules we would lose.
The Overall evidence is on our side & it may take longer but in the end the evidence will speak for itself!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Enough, already. The sheer number of strawmen set up and demolished in this thread over the past couple of hours is nothing short of depressing, especially among a group of people who aspire to persuade the police, our legislators and anyone else who will listen of the rightness of their cause.

If any of you are in the mood to take advice - and on tonight's performance, I suspect many of you aren't, but here goes anyway - learn to read what's been said, and respond to the contents of it. Getting furious at someone simply because they are critical of your approach, or the approach of someone you respect, will ultimately get you nowhere and might actually cause you to lose the support of someone you need to have onside ... such as the esteemed Det. Sgt. Murray who, like it or not, is in charge of the Phorm complaint submitted by Alexander Hanff. "Don't bite the hand that feeds you" is a well-known saying for good reason.

Yes, very clever. I think you're also clever enough to understand my meaning in the deliberate use of leet-speak in my original post, which leaves me mystified as to why you're pretending not to get it now.

There is a coterie of hat3rz on this thread in the truest possible internet use of the term. Some of the responses I've had to my posts, in public and in private, are proof of that. There is little (or no) attempt to analyze and respond to the points I've made, whether critically or supportively (either would be nice, truly). There has simply been a tirade of objections that I dare open my mouth at all. Blindly thrashing out at someone for disagreeing with you, without engaging in any intellectual process at all, is what hat3rz do. But I think you already knew that.

His investigative 'technique' is exposed in his conversation with DS Murray. You call it emotionally engaged, I call it bullying and grandstanding. Furthermore he has posted it up in a fashion that makes it almost impossible for the DS to exercise any kind of right of reply, because Alexander is pursuing his interests as a private citizen while the police officer is restrained by his positiion as a public servant. He doesn't have the liberty to come on here, or any other forum, and take a pop at Alexander in reply.

Posting those conversations was extremely poor judgement on Alexander's part. I think his blog deserves the term 'grotty' because of this and I stand by it.

... and here you expose the monumental fallacy at the heart of your entire argument (such as it is). You haven't even listened to the very audio that gave rise to my central complaint when I posted earlier. So you reply to me, directly and indirectly, both publicly and in private, yet for all your impressive-sounding and lofty arguments you have absolutely no knowledge whatsoever of the source material we're meant to be discussing.

That, and I mean this sincerely, is pathetic.

Another disappointing aspect of Alexander's conversation with DS Murray, which I had intended to raise with him should he wish to respond to me later, was his willingness to name-drop a member of the House of Lords and the fact that he had a three hour meeting with him. Name-dropping institutions and influential individuals can be construed as grand-standing, or playing to the gallery. In Alexander's case it seemed to be an attempt to get the DS to start being more compliant. But then, as you haven't listened to it, you have no idea what I'm talking about, have you?

While I disagree, strongly, with what Phorm is trying to do, I do not belive some of the batty, amateurish tactics being discussed and, apparently, employed by certain people who have posted in this thread are the best means of fighting against them.

You think this was a bad night? I intend to point out such nonsense wherever I find it and challenge those who want to take the fight to Phorm to do so in a way that is likely to get them listened to, and not merely dismissed as a lunatic fringe. Frankly, on current evidence, I will be very surprised if DS Murray has not already cateorized Alexander in this way.

I sit and await the inevitable flood of objections from those who can't tell the difference between trolling and honest, adult debate.

Anyone with anything constructive to say, however, please, I'll be delighted to hear it, whether you agree with me or not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK I am only putting my two cents in. I have read this thread and never participated.

I wish you the best of luck though.

I work in PR and you are doing yourselves a lot of damage in my opinion- hence i wanted to offer up an opinion.

What you seem to not see is that I agree that the evidence is on your side. What you do not understand is that NO ONE cares- not in a real get the press kind of way- so be right and have it take longer. I really fear it will take a seriously long time given current strategy.

i do hope i am wrong.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If there's one lesson to learn from Phorm's PR strategy its this; don't copy any aspect of their PR strategy. It has been an unmitigated disaster from start to finish.

As for the demo, it could have been better attended. But Phorm's counter demonstration wasn't well attended either, no one turned up to that one.

During the AGM Mr. Livingston was unable to say the words 'Phorm' or 'Webwise' in his presentations to the shareholders. So we managed to help him out, helped him to get the topic aired in front of the Chairman, shareholders and press. I think he was very grateful for that, but didn't get a chance to say so.

And many of the shareholders who were unaware came to talk to us afterwards, surprised and horrified that BT were doing this.

If we hadn't been there, it would never have happened.

But, whatever, I enjoyed it. And if there is going to be another demonstration, I will clear my diary again, and I will be there.

I hope you'll join me, and share one of Madslug's excellent sandwiches, and a laugh at BT's expense.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Daisey - one of the tremendously effective parts of the demonstration was the attendance of Baroness Miller, who has since being at the demonstration and meeting people personally, has been a tower of strength in the House of Lords asking extremely intelligent well INphormed questions of Home Office and DBERR, questions that can't be easily ignored.

This battle won't be won by PR spin but by persistent telling of the truth, again and again, to the right people in the right places.

Personally, if I had the Phorm showing me their "photo of the 3" alongside the campaigners alerting me to the articles that have been in the press and on the BBC Technology site about EU intervention, Congressional investigation,and the current list of unanswered questions from Lord Northesk and Baroness Miller, etc. I know which would impress me the most.But I am biassed!

I'm in for the long haul. All participants welcome. Cool heads especially valued.

I'm also aware that a few pages back we were reminded that it is "extremely bad Phorm" to discuss the goings on in other forums, so I shan't add to the discussion of the content of noDPI.org

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well, I'm afraid cool heads are conspicuously absent from this thread.

That is a personal opinion by the way...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have to agree completely there.

PR spin is not required, and adds no value. No spin is required to convey the truth.

Certainly more press coverage would be welcome, but whenever the press have been approached they've been reluctant to cover this for reasons we can only speculate about.

With the exception of Chris Williams at The Register, who deserves a nomination for a journalism award, after this sorry episode is over.

No worry, and you say Rob, I'm in this for as long as it takes.

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Speaking to you as a poster & not as a Moderator, who has managed to heat the other posters up the most this evening.

Your points do have merits, but you should debate them in an ordered fashion or tempers are likely to flair in both directions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Serious question.

What do you suggest as the best way forward?

For all the faults of this thread, I think it has always been open to debate various strategies.