Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Any photogenic or camera unshy people willing to try this (from the BBC):

"In May Mr Brown launched an online version of prime minister's questions.

He pledged to respond to video-clip questions submitted via the Downing Street Youtube website."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7556955.stm (last 2 paras)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT Spy-gate
Phorm-gate
<deleted>

Edit Rob: Mind the language, even if it is starred out

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hi to the 41 guests lurking on the side, please come in and join the discussion

we do not bite,

at least let us know your view on the proposed BT webwise system and phorm, be it good or bad or a non event as far as you are concerned so we can gauge how people perceive the issue

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I know what you're saying philj but given HW's replies I have to agree with SelfProtection.
Every time HW and other pro-phormers post it shows the pro phorm lobby for what it is: Totally devoid of any answers and comprised entirely of PhormPR cut & paste quotes.
It gives visitors a perspective on Phorms (non) arguments and furthers our campaign a tiny bit every time they post.
As long as it does not detract from the main thrust (as it did yesterday) I see no problem with giving them more rope to hang themselves with.
Dave

PS This thread will definitely be a poorer place without Flo :(
Come on Flo. Keep posting....You know you want to :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would you care to back that wild accusation up ?
I've answered anything you've all asked me to the best of my abilities.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Speaks Volumes!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Wish I'd have posted that :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I suspect the EC request will throw the cat among the pigeons.http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08..._phorm_letter/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, it's very good to see someone with real power asking some tough questions.

The fact that the answers are slow in coming suggests (in my opinion) that this isn't being dismissed as a trivial matter.

I see Florence is reading the thread again, if not contributing. Welcome back Florence.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What's wrong with sold up the swannie? :P

New article relating to targetted adverts
http://www.out-law.com/page-9345

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, I do not know if this has been spotted already and is a bit off topic but it looks like Virgin Media may use DPI in the music download controversy.

"PaidContent:UK is reporting the story, and indicates that it has been gathering the details for some time. According to its story, Virgin Media has reached an agreement with playlouder, which already runs a subscription-based music service. Virgin will see playlouder install deep packet inspection (DPI) equipment on its networks; the hardware will detect copyrighted material that traverses the network, and Virgin will compensate the rights holders accordingly."


Taken from here -

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...d-via-p2p.html

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Gavin Echlin Patterson, according to the FSA, also holds a Directorship in CPP (Card Protection Plan), an identity theft insurance business.

Which is tad ironic. :scratch:

http://www.cpp.co.uk/

Updated; hence BT Identity Protection links to CPP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How many DPI machines are virgin willing to allow on their network? This is getting ridiculous

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Would you like me to compile a list of Phorm/Webwise questions asked of you here, and not answered? I'm good at that sort of thing.

The questions will all be relevant to the topic of the thread - I'll leave out the ones that may have been off topic.

Tell you what - if you promise to take them one by one, in numbered order, with a source/reference/url for each answer if you have one, and indicating clearly openly and transparently if you don't have an answer, I'll promise to put a list together. But I will only do it if I get that promise. Any sort of fudged answer and I won't do the list.

Your go...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

About par for the course in this whole stinking hypocritical mess that BT have got themselves into.
Privacy enhancing technology, my arse

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

there is quite a bold statement in that article that I would disagree with.

I'm not aware of any rulings that have been made stating this to be the case? I know this has already been discussed but there is so much more to it than just gaining the users consent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A rare contribution ...
Speaking as an old pensioner with very limited technical knowledge, I would like to thank the anti Phorm contributors to the forum. When I first became aware of the issue early in the year I was incensed that ISP's felt they had the right to hi jack the browsing of their customers. Since that time I have firstly, made it my business to raise awareness with friends family and as many others as possible. I would add that many of those people have changed providers as a result of my efforts. Secondly I have sought to raise my my own awareness of the wider issues arising from DPI and targetted advertising as proposed.
It has been strikingly apparent to me that cogent well thought out and well constructed arguments have been developed in opposition to the proposed deplyoyment and i have been grateful to absorb these. In contrast, I have found the presentaion of of the case for BT/Phorm and their apologists (especially those who bring their ill informed arrogance to various fora.. they know who they are) to be nothing more than PR spin and obfuscation, not to mention downright lies.
I am further incensed by lack of action by the authorities and have been busy writing my own complaints, for the first time in a long life, I should add. I welcome the close attention being made by the EU authorities. Generally, I steer clear of party political criticism, believing these particular issues to be endemic within govt. depts of whichever colour.
The main point i wish to emphasise is that alongside the major contributors to the fora there are many, many others working to spread the word. We appreciate the efforts of more knowledgeable and more frequent posters and hope that in our own way we add to the efforts to make sure this is consigned to history.

Thanks and keep up the good work, I know I will be doing just that.

A final word to Florence, I have very much appreciated your contributions here and would be very sorry to see to see you withdraw. Please reconsider.

Tee Cee

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

and apart from copyrighted material the software can detect...

what?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

another reg exclusive...

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08/13/phorm_us_tests/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

-

And I know who was pushing the rumours.

I wonder what that denial will do to the share price now.

The real story here is in the response phorm feels the need to make.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In other words... they wanted the profiling to be covert.


Hello 'tee cee'. welcome to the debate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

there's that "transparent" word again...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Inconceivable!

[Spanish accent]
"You keep using this word, I do not think it means what you think it means"
[/Spanish accent]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've not seen anything on the BBC website yet relating to the EU letter. I'm sure they will cover this as it's very significant.

The fact that nothing has appeared yet leads me to hope that the piece will be very detailed when it does come along. Perhaps taking time to record some interviews?

On a different note, anybody with language skills might want to visit various fora in Europe. It would help our cause if the EU commission started to receive letters from Europeans elsewhere asking for intervention over the issue, Europe wide, not just in the UK.

"Don't let them even start here" that sort of thing, but the letters coming in French, German, Spanish etc!

Can anyone remember the name of the web analytics guy from (Sweden?) who came here to be REphormed? I would like to hear his opinion on the letter and see if he blogs on it. Also to thank him again for writing to the EU. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT's meaning of the word or everyone elses? ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think it was something like backbeak or blackbeak

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

don`t no if it`s been posted before http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7557963.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Many thanks. Bang on.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...post11800.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Indeed it was..
heres a link to his last post


Blog link

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Had a look into this a while ago:

http://badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugins/f....php?5585.post

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello tee cee. Welcome to the forum, and thank you for the kind words.

Your help is also greatly appreciated. :)

---------- Post added at 14:33 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

Anyone tried contacting Paxman?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is a bi (or perhaps in the UK tri) Partisan issue. It need not be divided by politics.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

News like this makes me wonder how long it will be before the powers-that-be discover how much email goes nowhere near an ISP. None of my mailservers keep logs for more than a few days: just as well considering how fast the logs grow whenever there is a dictionary spam attack.

Even if the hosting providers are also asked to keep mail logs there are still all the private mailservers people keep in their garages.

A true catch 22 situation - the greater the bandwidth the easier it is for those who want to maintain privacy to get around anything the 'snoopers' try to do. Dial-up limited images, sound, video and flash. What will limit encryption?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How does your mail server receive its' data then, carrier pigeon? ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Are you suggesting that ISPs capture IP traffic and use DPI to store email traffic data even between 2 third-party servers? Surely this would be illegal under UK and EU law, given my understanding of what actually constitutes "traffic data" (as opposed to what MPs and HO officials would LIKE to include as traffic data).

Or are you simply hinting that one end of the transaction may be using an ISP server?

Anyhow, this is getting OT and there's loads to be read about this debate on other newsgroups and forums. Apologies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Presumably if you have a private mail server in your garage you will be subject to the same requirements as any other provider. Of course enforcing it is another matter. Don't forget the mail servers hosted outside of the EU too (both private and public).

Personally I hope they ask for a list of my e-mail addresses. I have over 30,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 of them!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

In my opinion I wonder if they are trying to avoid the full heat of the US Congress inquisition and are doing another 121Media ContextPlus/PeopleOnPage type runner from the USA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Abandoning the US market would be a very painful thing for phorm to do because they see it as having huge potential. Unfortunately for phorm its looking like they will be forced out of the US and the EU. That's two big slices of the global market taken away from them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe someone could help me here.


But i am sure i read somewhere that the BCS would kick out members if they were involved with phorm type stuff. This is because of the BCS rules.


now we just need to find out who involved is a member of the BCS ???

Edit: found it.

http://www.bcs.org/server.php?show=ConWebDoc.18993

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What I was suggesting is that it is trivial to amend the DPI to siphon off port 25 and 110 traffic as well as port 80. Scan for keywords etc. My point was that even if you have your own mailserver, the data still traverses the ISP's network and is subject to DPI.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Although organisations generally can't tell you who IS a member because of DPA they are often willing to give you a negative.
Question - Is Dr Mengele a member of the Red Cross?
Answer - We do not have any record of Dr Mengele being a member of the Red Cross either now or in the past.

So you could make your own list and then ask if any of the people are NOT members, and also of course give the BCS your reason for asking, and remind them of the quote, and provide some checkable evidence of the people's involvement with DPI and covert trials.

So I would be inclined to list people like Stratis Scleparis for example (currently CTO at Phorm, formerly CTO at BT Retail), and the Phorm list, including Hugo Drayton, Kent Ertugrul, and of course a fair collection of BT Retail execs, as well as the current CEO who headed up BT Retail at the time of the secret trials.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you look on the BCS site you'll find details of members (like me) who've opted to make their membership details public (allowing you to positively confirm membership).

http://wam.bcs.org/wam/memberdirectory.aspx

When I lasted looked for significant names, I didn't find any I recognised, but there are obviously more names known now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But this only works for chartered members and above, doesn't it?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think They use the definition from dictionary.com

http://dictionary.reference.com/sear...parent&x=0&y=0

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

one thing about using dpi to pick up key words will it be in context? like "they was bombing it down the hill on their bikes"
Two key words would they be taken out of context, you get ads servered up for a bike and the sas kicking your front door in.. software is not that clever is, so it will be tagged and viewed by a human thinking it`s all coded text they reading.
:)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's an excellent way of describing it Spiny Norman, and perfectly sums up BT and Phorm's activities.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've said before - one of my biggest passions is Fender Telecaster guitars and they are commonly called Tele's. I expect to be bombarded with adverts for Panasonic TV's which are of no interest to me.

Bear in mind that the internet is global and i have to wonder what Phorm will make of the American use of the word fanny - somewhat different to the one we are used to.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So. Target people who regularly take part in on-line surveys to be the Phorm guinea-pigs? Offer a money incentive?

Makes sense from the BT point of view, but they can never claim it to be a typical cross-section of the UK public.

Good find. I hope she follows up with more information if she follows it through.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Text version of 'Open Letter to Internet Businesses'. I'll create a PDF version soon.

http://nodpi.wikispaces.com/Propaganda2

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does that sound really sinister or is it me?

I think it's known as "grooming"

Hi Jennie,

We have a new survey available for you to take. You will also be asked if you would like to take part in an ongoing program run by BT in which you will be asked to take part in online activities. You will need to provide your e-mail address and register on the website so that you can be sent the details of how to take part. In exchange for taking part you will be given some sweeties, do you like sweeties Jennie? If you'd like to see some puppies we'll give you 25p or £1.00 if during the online activities you touch...


:shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Given what I've seen, it looks (in comparison to Phorm) innocuous.

Its something to do with an online directory service, domain is btexchanges.com. I'm about to run some DNS/IP address checks and wll report details momentarily.

---------- Post added at 19:50 ---------- Previous post was at 19:48 ----------

OK,

According to robtex BTexchanges.com is not hosted inside BT. Its on a 'Rackspace.com' server 92.52.64.192. However DNS for the btexchanges.com domain is provided by BT. Its Microsoft-IIS/6.0 on Windows Server 2003.

Domain Registrant:
BRITISH TELECOMMUNICATIONS PLC
PP. G555
81 Newgate Street
London, London ec1a 7aj
UK

Netcraft reports the IP range is owned by Mural Ventures ltd.

The survey data was gathered by confirmit.com (survey.euro.confirmit.com/212.100.250.8). According to robtex its again outside BT, in an ip range owned by Future Information Research Management.

Netcraft reports the server is based in the UK (though note the organisation details for Confirmit ASA, Hoffsveien 48, Oslo, Oslo, 0377, Norway).

BT seem to be incapable of hosting anything on their internal systems, particularly systems that gather marketing and personal information from their customers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very interesting. Browser logs from beginning to end of that survey could be very useful.

My first response was - it can't be in every RAS centre!! Then I reasoned that anyone who fills in lots of surveys has probably supplied enough personal data for them to have been picked based on some demographics.

The one thing that makes me think that this is something completely different is the phrase "BT's online activities" which suggests that BT will be in control all the time.

---------- Post added at 19:57 ---------- Previous post was at 19:52 ----------

Edit needed for new domain for e-petitions.

http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/ispphorm/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There hosts where the host servers are all in one data centre but you can have an IP address for a specific EU country attached to the hosting. Unfortunately the only client I host there is using the same country IP address as where the servers are hosted so I can't test what happens with different geo-IP addresses.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just had a email back from a web site what asks for all your details name addy and tel and what not to register no https and then once all done the info is still shown to the public without been logged in.

here is the reply:

Hello

Apologies for the late response. The information entered is not deemed to require https. Most of the information you input will be displayed on the website to the public anyway.
Sensitive information such as payment information is under https.

now with phorm will it ignore all that usefull personal detail cos i am sure some of our names are not like common as smith and jones.
so I have replied back with web links to all the info about bt and webwise/phorm.
how many more sites out there that use open none https for personal details to register to use their services?
:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More info on that survey, the FAQ and T&Cs links are hosted on www.just-rewards-hosting.co.uk.

According to netcraft, the just-rewards-hosting server is hosted in the UK, by EUKHost Ltd, reverse DNS is merlin.eukhost.com, running Apache 1.3 on Linux.

Why on earth isn't the FAQ hosted on the same server as the survey, let alone the service itself, and why isn't it all inside BT? Gawdsakes.

Domain name:
just-rewards-hosting.co.uk

Registrant:
Experian

Trading as:
Experian

Registrant type:
UK Public Limited Company, (Company number: 653331)

Registrant's address:
Embankment House
Nottingham
NG80 1EH
GB

So there is a credit reference agency involved in this.

Anyway, in summary, no evidence of a link to Phorm. But yet more reason to switch ISP.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I remember Experian being linked to behavioural advertising before and managed to find the link again...

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3688387.ece

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

so what services do BT run themselves

helpdesk=india
customer services= ibm
advertising = phorm(shortly - in bt's definition of the word)
surveys = experian
mail services = yahoo
parental controls = yahoo
RAS servers = BTW

seems to be all that there is left is managers to manage all the outsourced services

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You are forgetting the tracking cookies that run all through the BT sites.

advertising - doubleclick / omniture touchclarity - "He continued: "Omniture TouchClarity provides the essential mechanism by which a website can listen, learn and respond to each visitor in a thoughtful and intelligent manner and prove the resulting increase in performance lift and yield".
Omniture TouchClarity works by building rich individual visitor behavioural profiles and combines it with automated predictive modelling techniques in order to enable the real-time targeting of each visitor with the most engaging content."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The 2006 pagesence trials appeared to pick up to 10 groups of words in context, I'd be surprised if their new product's profiling was more primative - unless they've been limited by itrequiring too many profilers to meet the processing overheads.

A couple of examples from the sysip.net javascript leak thread on badphorm
- http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...ic.php?2579.10

1.

referer-kww=


mexico%20good%20american%20series%20instruments%20 7,
fender%20ic%20series%20jazz%20bass%207,
post%20reply%206,
instruments%20expensive%20instruments%204,
good%20aswell%202,
playability%20%202,
affordable%20made%20mexico%202,
edit%201,
message%201,
models%201





2.

&search-tr=how%20am%20i%20tested%20for%20std%3F


&referer-kw=

info%20std%20testing,
google,
search,
tested%20std,
web,
links,
affordable,
district%20columbia,
information%20teens

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i find that rather funny the last word

---------- Post added at 00:25 ---------- Previous post was at 00:15 ----------

has this been posted http://www.out-law.com/page-9345

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

IMHO to be fair, the old BT in the past had a deserved respect within the technological community and would not have had a clue about dubious methods such as Phorm / Webwise and other possibly illegal data gathering aspects of communication.

I believe they have been infiltrated by a breed of command that has lost its direction and is possible totally consumed with making money by fair means or foul.

Because the old style bread and butter BT personnel have been trained and indoctrinated by the customer is king and the BT does no evil doctrine, the top tier would definitely have to look elsewhere for this type of behaviour and 'expertise'. I suspect the ills of BT lie within this top tier of command.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would love to see one of these surveys published with the actual questions that were asked.

A couple of days ago, leaving my local supermarket, which wants planning permission to expand, I witnessed a good example.

"Would you prefer we expanded our food or our non-food areas?"

Whatever way you answer, they can go to the local council and say all our customers are in favour of expansion. (And they were adamant I had to pick one, right up to the point when I walked away.)

Without the questions, and the answers to them, these polls are meaningless.

Good spot though Wildie.

EDIT: Tescos btw.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Couldn't agree more. Contrasts with BT Global Services touting themselves in these terms;

No wonder there are reports of rifts.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I found this paragraph content the MOST interesting

"Information Commissioner Richard Thomas, the UK's privacy regulator, spoke.

He said that companies had to make sure they followed simple, clear guidelines, or risked losing their customers."

Virgin Media take note! DON'T BREAK THE LAW.

Every broadband customer you lose due to the possibility of Phorm webwise you can times by three your losses . Phone, TV and broadband.

Please clarify your position now! Remember that BT will not lose as much as you stand to, per customer.

My next campaign will be the lack of choice for optical services. Is it time for local optical unbundling. VM gives no choice to consumers? ... maybe?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting fact - Ertugrul's sister is a Financial Times journalist. (FT is one of the companies that have been linked to Phorm)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's a good find.

When Alex posted this (below) we had a really good hunt for confirmation, but couldn't find anything.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...-post9072.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep your write

From PlusNet PLC Service Status Email.
Geeeeeeeeeee what next? :shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

heres another interesting information tool to be used as you see fit :angel:, alas they dont allow you to break it down to each pageview hit, only the top domain but its a start.

http://www.cubestat.com/www.phorm.com
"Website Worth: $10,034.58

Daily Pageviews: 4,582

Daily Ads Revenue: $13.75
"


http://www.cubestat.com/www.beta.bt.com
"Website Worth: $791,133.12

Daily Pageviews: 361,248

Daily Ads Revenue: $1,083.74
"

LOL 4/1 Redeemed so far
http://www.kindlyfoxtrotoscar.com/?a...ominee&nID=456

have people been slacking lately ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I See that Virgin Media still has the Phorm Spin on it!

See Phorm & Webwise & See Questions and answers. :(

---------- Post added at 04:40 ---------- Previous post was at 04:34 ----------

Google Webwise / Phorm.

Looks what's top... its not Phorm.

---------- Post added at 05:18 ---------- Previous post was at 04:40 ----------

Google Webwise.

Looks what's top... its not Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see one or two changes on the Phorm site.

Their name/logo now bears the TM moniker - it didn't used to - does this mean they have now registered the name or the logo? (see earlier discussions which we needn't repeat about the provenance of both their name and logo - very similar to an existing name and logo of the totally unconnected and highly reputable Phorm Design in South Yorkshire)

I remember someone checked before on that and they weren't registered. Anyone know how to check that out?


Their site bears a copyright notice dated 2008 saying "All rights reserved. Copyright 2008 Phorm Inc."
I wonder which rights those are?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can't believe they fail to see the irony of that statement :dozey:

So it's one rule for them...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Phorm name is registered, if not the logo...

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/madridEU?madridEUnum=U00000931311

But it was the Webwise name that was more problematic...

http://www.ipo.gov.uk/domestic?domesticnum=2478179

No, still 'advertised'.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks - I see the graphic of the mark shown on
http://www.ipo.gov.uk/madridEU?madridEUnum=U00000931311
is NOT the actual mark they use. So still no clarity on that then. Obviously they have had difficulty registering the actual design of their website Phorm mark presumably on account of difficulty in establishing that it is their intellectual property owing to it's remarkable similarity to the UK design companies mark.

Not wanting to start a lengthy discussion on this - just checking out whether there had been any progress on the matter. Obviously a company about to enter deep water on discussion of intellectual property rights of website owners, would need to occupy the moral and legal high ground when it came to their own logo and trademark as used on their own website.

Questions for Phorm - I'd prefer it if they were only answered by an official Phorm representative, so we don't end up going round and round again.

Have you made any contact with Phorm Design of S Yorkshire, regarding copyright issues and registration issues relating to the logo and name Phorm?

Are you making, or have you made, any payments to them for the use of that logo design and name?

Is the Phorm logo used on your site, protected or in any way registered as your own intellectual property? Or can I use it myself for a product I might wish to develop for my commercial advantage?

Is the name Webwise a registered trademark belonging to Phorm Inc ?

With regard to the very brief copyright notice on your site, exactly what rights do you "reserve" with regard to the content of your site? Which particular legislation or rights do you claim with respect to your intellectual content?

May I make print copies of your website content and use them for my commercial advantage?
May I make temporary electronic copies and use them for my commercial advantage?
May I create derivative works based on your website content, for my own commercial advantage?
May I use your domain name, and plant cookies on other people's machines, which purport to come from the phorm.com domain, again for my commercial advantage?

Just to let you know, I have asked BT Retail a number of questions about the copyright issues around the www.bt.com website, but they haven't felt able to reply yet as I imagine they are seeking/obtaining legal advice/counsel/ on the matter.

The questions won't go away, either in the USA or the EU so best to work out some answers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Intellectual Property Office.

This is also where anyone interested in website copyright issues should be looking.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Anyone can put the TM next to a logo - that doesn't have to be registered.

What you can not do is to put the ® symbol next to your logo unless you have registered the logo (and it has been accepted) by the trademark office.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks - Frank Rizzo - that clarifies.
Looks like the actual logo that Phorm use on their publicity and website is still in legal limbo then, whereas the Trademark they registered is a different design altogether in a plain serif text and I'm not sure I've seen that one in use on any phorm literature or publicity.

Although I wouldn't advocate anyone using the unregistered logo as they might be stepping on the pre-existing moral claim of Phorm Design, S Yorkshire, to a virtually identical design which incorporates a copyright symbol.

I suppose it would be an awkward question for Phorm Inc to answer if it came up say, in a Parliamentary committee from a well briefed MP or Peer, as part of a series of questions about Phorm's attitude to copyright and intellectual property. "Now then Mr Ertugrul, you have indicated to us that you respect other people's intellectual property. Perhaps you could just tell us a little bit about the logo of your own company and how you developed it...?"

Still, I'm sure all that is sorted out now, after all it was first raised months ago. I'm sure an appropriate amount of restitution will have been made to Phorm Design in Sheffield. After all a reputable company would act pretty quickly in those circumstances to put things right. They couldn't afford the bad publicity.

And BT/Virgin Media/TalkTalk-CarPhone Warehouse would only want to work with reputable companies as partners.

So only the Phorm website copyright questions still in need of resolution then... (preferably by Phorm). Just so the rest of us with websites know what the position is. If Phorm are concerned about their website copyright, maybe they could make common cause with us to ensure it is robustly protected by the courts and regulators. In case anyone comes along to rip us off.

BTW FR - is there a blog or update site anywhere that gives us updates on your own situation vis a vis BT and Webwise? - of course we wish you every success.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=HamsterWheel;34619807]No it doesn't at all, or are you trying to suggest that the vast majority of shareholders were present at the AGM? If you are then you very very mistaken.

Alexander Hanff
(Catching up from page 918)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks :PP:

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34620396

:PP:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=AlexanderHanff;34621004]Alex, I never said they were present.
You do not have to be present at an AGM to vote. Well over 90% of the votes cast were in favour of all the AGM resolutions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

City of London Police appear to have misplaced the case file. no-one knows where it is and the "Specialist Crime Unit" I was told it would be passed to DOES NOT EXIST.

I have given CoL until 1pm to get back to me with some information if they fail to do this I will be contacting IPCC, the press/media and my MP and HoL contacts.

You can probably understand I am currently very angry.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Probably propping up a wonky desk somewhere. I trust you kept a copy ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No back in the real world they have broken EU and UK law (criminal and civil).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Forum rules prevent me from expressing myself adequately so suffice to say that I think that they should have done better than this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What the?

:wtf:

---------- Post added at 11:39 ---------- Previous post was at 11:28 ----------

I can find details of the Metropolitan Police Specialist Crime Unit.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was told this would be going to CoL Specialist Crime Unit (in front of a journalist so I have a witness). I will update as soon as I have more info.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If you would like to get back to the issues around Phorm, Webwise and Adverts, then did you see my post
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34...post13914.html
and are you ready to get down to relevant detail? I have my list almost completed - just needs a little tweaking and editing, and then I can produce a list of neatly numbered factual questions directed to you that are still needing properly substantiated answers, from your first post here, to yesterday's date.

Remember you need to commit to answering them ALL as best as you can, or else the list won't be posted.

Otherwise there is a real danger we will waste a lot of time here going round and round in an orgy of mutual provocation about off topic issues. I for one am not prepared to tolerate that and will make my feelings known through the appropriate channels.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

City of London Police have a business fraud desk (apparently the term Fraud Squad was replaced by Specialist Crime in the Met, not sure about CoL).
http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/Ci...inessfraud.htm

City of London Police fraud desk:

Telephone: 020 7601 6999
Fax: 020 7601 2345
Email: frauddesk@city-of-london.pnn.police.uk

They have some helpful Fraud prevention tips;

BT might be able to incorporate those suggestions in their business model.

---------- Post added at 11:50 ---------- Previous post was at 11:43 ----------

More CoL Specialist Crime info

And they are on this chart as Specialist Crime Operations. Interesting... That part of the CoL Police would include "Major Crime Investigation and Surveillance" so perhaps they know where the dossier went?

The reporting line takes you to the assistant commissioner Frank Armstrong if I'm not mistaken.

According to this picture it is Det Ch Supt Steve Head who leads the Specialist Crime Operations.

I'll leave it there. Alex if you need more info just ask.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

City of London Police have a Specialist Crime DEPARTMENT:

http://company.monster.co.uk/colpuk/#scd

Furthermore, the Metropolitain Police have a Specialist Crime DIRECTORATE, replacing the old "Fraud Squad". A couple of posters have mentioned talking to their local police and being told that the Met were investigating.

http://www.met.police.uk/scd/special...list_crime.htm

O.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They have now located the file and given me the crime reference number as well as the details of the DS in CID (at Snowhill) who is in charge of the case. I waiting for him to call me back and will update again once I have more info.

So despite the SCU myth they spun me at least they have found it and confimed it has a crime number and is being investigated. I am still unhappy at being misled but I look forward to an update from the DS in charge of the case in the next couple of hours.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 11:57 ---------- Previous post was at 11:56 ----------

It was CoL Head Office who told me explicitly that they have no specialist crime departments at CoL on the phone this morning and the latest information on the case file seems to support this (the case is with CID).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the update Alex. Good to know there is actually a crime reference number allocated. I wonder how BT feel about being the 2006/2007 Webwise trials being the subject of an active official City of London Police criminal investigation?

One presumes the investigating officers won't be going through the overseas help desk, and that BT may just have to do a little bit more than refer them to the April 2008 Webwise FAQ.

It could be a novel experience for some people, answering police questions, and having to really think hard about whether the answers are true.

Certainly a bit different from dealing with customers, when you can just decide to turn off the tap and keep silent.

It is obviously time now for certain people to be seeking/obtaining legal advice/er/opinion, again...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hang on a minute - if you're already getting narky is there really any point in foisting the list on me ?
Happy to have a bash at it if you're going to be a gentleman about it. But if you load it with aggression I'll ignore it.
Your call.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi, FT.com article but nothing new! -

http://blogs.ft.com/gapperblog/2008/...you-read-this/

Dave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OMG!

Edit:

Glad they found it. Look forward to hearing what they have to say.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If they have given a Crime number is it possible to independently ask for a Crime Number from your Local Constabulary concerning the same possible offense?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can I just clarify? - does "happy to have a bash at it" mean you will take each numbered question and either answer it with attributions/references or indicate that you cannot do so?

I am happy to post the list on that basis in order to promote debate specifically on Phorm, Webwise and Adverts. The list will contain no other side issues, will not be narky, will be gentlemanly, and will not be aggressive and is not foisted on anyone - that's why I am making sure first, that it will be dealt with in the spirit in which it will be offered. It will contain factual unanswered questions about Phorm, Webwise, and Adverts posed to you on this forum. I will NOT include snide remarks or any form of baiting or off-topic issues.

But I do need the specific assurance I am asking for before making the effort to finally compile it.If I get that unequivocal assurance, then my next post will be that list. May be a day or two though.
Otherwise I will just leave things where they stand now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

As I said, happy to have a bash. Can't guarantee a prompt response, depends on the length of the tome.
I'm no tech wizard, so don't expect too much.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't get too excited based on the call I just had with the DS in charge of the case.

Watch this space.

Alexander Hanff