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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

phormwatch 03-08-2008 20:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Christ. Do we have to read an advert for Phorm every time we complain about it?

number6 03-08-2008 20:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by philj (Post 34614061)
Response from Virgin Media regarding email telling them I was posting letter (Data Protection Act) and my disgust at any implementation of Phorm or anything like it

Thank you for your e-mail dated 2 August 2008 concerning Virgin Media using PHORM.

I am sorry that you feel this way. Phorm Is there to safegaurd our customers not to transfer information about our users. Webwise checks these sites against a list of fraudulent sites and warns customers if they're heading to one. They're given the option to continue to that site, so Webwise won't restrict their online experience in any way, but at least they'll be able to decide for themselves, and avoid the chance of this form of identity theft. In this way Webwise helps to secure our customers' privacy.

Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant advertising. As customers browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done without collecting any personal information, so once again their privacy is protected. These topics are then used to help filter out adverts that might be irrelevant - instead they'll simply see an advert that will match a topic they're are more interested in.

Webwise doesn't capture or store any customer's personal details, only anonymous information about advertising categories that may be of interest to them. Webwise places a common cookie in web browsers - a small computer code with a unique, randomly generated number on it. With this cookie, Webwise can deliver warnings of potentially dangerous websites and replace untargeted ads with more relevant ones. This cookie can be deleted at any time.

Virgin Media strives to provide excellent service to all its loyal customers. I am sorry for any inconvenience. If you have further queries regarding this matter or any other issue, please use the link provided below:


In short they sent you the usual pointless, inaccurate, cut and paste waffle. If they can't do better than that there is little hope for them.:D

SelfProtection 03-08-2008 20:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by philj (Post 34614061)
Response from Virgin Media regarding email telling them I was posting letter (Data Protection Act) and my disgust at any implementation of Phorm or anything like it

Thank you for your e-mail dated 2 August 2008 concerning Virgin Media using PHORM.

I am sorry that you feel this way. Phorm Is there to safegaurd our customers not to transfer information about our users. Webwise checks these sites against a list of fraudulent sites and warns customers if they're heading to one. They're given the option to continue to that site, so Webwise won't restrict their online experience in any way, but at least they'll be able to decide for themselves, and avoid the chance of this form of identity theft. In this way Webwise helps to secure our customers' privacy.

Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant advertising. As customers browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done without collecting any personal information, so once again their privacy is protected. These topics are then used to help filter out adverts that might be irrelevant - instead they'll simply see an advert that will match a topic they're are more interested in.

Webwise doesn't capture or store any customer's personal details, only anonymous information about advertising categories that may be of interest to them. Webwise places a common cookie in web browsers - a small computer code with a unique, randomly generated number on it. With this cookie, Webwise can deliver warnings of potentially dangerous websites and replace untargeted ads with more relevant ones. This cookie can be deleted at any time.

Virgin Media strives to provide excellent service to all its loyal customers. I am sorry for any inconvenience. If you have further queries regarding this matter or any other issue, please use the link provided below:



Two opposing sentences in the same paragraph with makes a total nonsense of their entire Privacy Claims.

If a UID is Unique then it does identify the Surfer, especially if that cookie is not deleted till the intended expiration date!
Combinations of advertising categories will be unique to this Surfer, even if not thing else is harvested, which I doubt.

---------------
Webwise places a common cookie in web browsers - a small computer code with a unique, randomly generated number on it.

Webwise doesn't capture or store any customer's personal details, only anonymous information about advertising categories that may be of interest to them.

Tharrick 03-08-2008 21:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
In light of that, I'm now officially leaving VM. Looking at Be, and it's looking good.

Do I need a MAC key while changing from cable to ADSL?

madslug 03-08-2008 22:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
While on the subject of Webwise, I notice that the Phorm site is still talking about TalkTalk starting to use Webwise in the summer of 2008.
There is still nothing about Webwise on the TalkTalk site. Their Privacy Statement says little that could indicate a 3rd party like Webwise being used.

Does anyone know where TalkTalk customers 'hang out'? I have not noticed anyone on any of the Phorm-aware forums mentioning that they use TalkTalk.

Ravenheart 03-08-2008 22:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
The way PhilJ's reply from VM reads it's as if they're already using it.

I realise it looks like the standard cut and paste reply, but it seems a long way from the "we're only looking at it" responses a few of us got from them early on.

madslug 03-08-2008 22:13

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34614106)
In light of that, I'm now officially leaving VM. Looking at Be, and it's looking good.

Do I need a MAC key while changing from cable to ADSL?

That depends on whether you are on a cable or BT copper connection to your house. If via the local BT exchange, then you probably will need a MAC code.

The only advantage to having a MAC code is that you do not have to wait for the current ADSL to be removed from your line before you can ask for a new supplier. At worst, that means being without ADSL for a week (10 working days but usually supplied quicker.)

philj 03-08-2008 22:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Have just emailed VM back and told them
Dont believe them
not convinced
Ashamed of them getting into bed with this mob
I expect the instructions in my letter to Data Controller to be carried out.

Philj
now where is Richard Branson's email address?

Tharrick 03-08-2008 22:20

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by madslug (Post 34614116)
That depends on whether you are on a cable or BT copper connection to your house. If via the local BT exchange, then you probably will need a MAC code.

The only advantage to having a MAC code is that you do not have to wait for the current ADSL to be removed from your line before you can ask for a new supplier. At worst, that means being without ADSL for a week (10 working days but usually supplied quicker.)

Ah. I'm on their cable line right now

Florence 03-08-2008 22:23

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34614106)
In light of that, I'm now officially leaving VM. Looking at Be, and it's looking good.

Do I need a MAC key while changing from cable to ADSL?

No you will not need a MAC just the BT line in to move be carefull VM are claiming back dicounts when you cancel as I have found out.

Dephormation 03-08-2008 22:25

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34614131)
Ah. I'm on their cable line right now

When you arrange your ADSL service, plan for a little overlap between the two... say a week... and you'll have no problem.

I tried to do mine back to back, and with hind sight I think allowing a small overlap would have been a smarter plan.

If you want a drop in replacement for your cable modem, I can recommend the DrayTek Vigor 110 (...provided your router supports PPPoE).

Tharrick 03-08-2008 22:26

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I think my contract expires at the end of the month - I simply plan not to renew

davews 03-08-2008 22:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34613972)
I'm working on a Wikipedia article for the BT Total Broadband page. If anyone is interested in collaboration, please let me know. I'm particularly interested in someone who is more familiar with Wiki, and who can also provide appropriate hyperlinks etc. to my text.

Do you mean you are proposing changes to the already existing page on BT Total Broadband - on the URL you mentioned. That article has been there for a long time and has gone through quite a few changes, although not much in the Phorm/Webwise days. Surprisingly it is not even linked from the Phorm WP page, guess I can soon sort that out.

I have done a lot of editing on Wikipedia over the past couple of years. The normal rule applies - be bold and put in your changes and see what happens. But always to remember to follow Wikipedia policies and you will soon get put in your place if you start stating strong points of view or claims not backed up by authoritative references. I suspect a simple paragraph stating they have recently been involved in Phorm/Webwise and a link to the Phorm article will be enough, anything more will probably get stamped on. I know, I have been through all that, you soon find your place there...

phormwatch 03-08-2008 22:33

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
http://stevenimmons.org/blogs/steven...ne-advertising

Florence 03-08-2008 22:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34614147)
I think my contract expires at the end of the month - I simply plan not to renew

they auto renew if you do not cancel 30days notice to cancel..

Quote:

The backlash against Beacon and public meetings over Phorm indicate that the consumer must not be rushed. The Internet has an almost unique position in modern culture, for many a last bastion of escapism. We are profiled regularly in ‘real world’ retailing, resistance to which has largely faded, but Internet anonymity will not be easily surrendered. Trust, data security and privacy must be addressed with users and not ‘in spite of them’. The key sell is advertising ‘as content inline with user experience’. Enriching and non-interruptive models coupled with Semantic Web and Web3.0 herald an exciting future for the industry and Internet community.

I have selected this paragraph to talk about from your link phormwatch many thanks for the link. Highlights by me.

I have placed in Bold my main gripe...
It is not "we must not be rushed" I feel this should be "we will not be profiled at the expence of privacy, human rights and copyright infringement from websites we visit."

In the real world retail we give them as much or as little informatioin as we want no retail shop sends anyone around the store following every customers jotting down notes of everything we look at, touch, or buy.


Not always many of us still only give out as much or little as we wish. If it was surrenders anyone downloading copyrighted files would get a notices direct from the authorities not via their ISPs.


BT, TalkTalk and Virgin Media have already caused the ripples we used to trust them now I certainly don't hence why I moved to a smaller ISP that answered my questions promptly with answers that gave me hope there are still some who are not out to rip of the customers. There will never be any trust from Internet users who have come into contact with Kents previous rootkit targeted advertisements, none of my data will ever be profiled by his company or anyother company like his.

Interception will not enrich the internet, advertisments will not enrich the surfing for me I block them.

Quote:

Web3.0 herald an exciting future for the industry and Internet community
Or the death of freedom of speach, freedom to visit any websaite you wish turning the WWW into mini China around the world with many places blocked.

Tharrick 03-08-2008 22:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Well then. I'll be contacting them as soon as possible.

Bonglet 03-08-2008 23:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
They cant auto renew anything without your signature.

Tharrick 03-08-2008 23:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
That's what I thought - surely if I haven't signed anything they can't claim that it's valid?

Tarquin L-Smythe 03-08-2008 23:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Talk Talk forum here
http://www.talktalkmembers.com/forum...?t=740&page=18

pseudonym 03-08-2008 23:27

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by tarka (Post 34614028)
Confirmed, when clicking the opt in link I do see a similar cookie for a.webwise.net (i'm with BT). Interestingly, the opt out link just goes to the home page. To confirm that the opt out link wasn't doing anything at all I tried leaving the cookie in place then clicking the opt out link but after being sent to the home page the cookie remained, presumably leaving me opted in.

I also tried visiting a.webwise.net/services/ and got a 404.

The ISP check is carried out from the home page :- http://www.webwise.com/index.php

If you look on the left hand side it should say:-

"The Webwise feature
is not available
at this time."


The opt-in and opt-out are on separate pages


OPT-IN = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/in.html

OPT-OUT = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/out.html

Bypassing the homepage and using either these links works for me (I'm not with one of the Phorm Three)

The opt-out link deletes the UID cookie and creates the opt-out cookie "OPTED_OUT=YES".

Quote:

{Firephorm} Blocked Master cookie (http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=...om%2Findex.php)

Phorm Master Cookie: "uid=na; expires=Sat, 4-Aug-2007 20:50:26 GMT; path=/services/
OPTED_OUT=YES; expires=Tue, 3-Aug-2010 20:50:26 GMT; domain=.webwise.net; path=/"
I believe they "fixed" the opt-in/opt-out script to check referrer a few months after I mentioned the remote opt-in issue over on ISPReview - So directly accessing the actual opt-in url http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in without spoofing referrer will give an error - I guess people who block referer wouldn't want to opt-out anyway. :dunce:

Florence 03-08-2008 23:34

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614152)

Possibly the same http://www.linkedin.com/in/snimmons

more from the PR guys

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bonglet (Post 34614165)
They cant auto renew anything without your signature.


I signed once for BB wich was fitted 20th July 2000 once 12 months are up they auto renew but monthly or mine was unless T&C have changed to extend it to 12 months again as some of BT's do.

SelfProtection 03-08-2008 23:34

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34614178)
The ISP check is carried out from the home page :- http://www.webwise.com/index.php

If you look on the left hand side it should say:-

"The Webwise feature
is not available
at this time."


The opt-in and opt-out are on separate pages


OPT-IN = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/in.html

OPT-OUT = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/out.html

Bypassing the homepage and using either these links works for me (I'm not with one of the Phorm Three)

The opt-out link deletes the UID cookie and creates the opt-out cookie "OPTED_OUT=YES".



I believe they "fixed" the opt-in/opt-out script to check referrer a few months after I mentioned the remote opt-in issue over on ISPReview - So directly accessing the actual opt-in url http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in without spoofing referrer will give an error - I guess people who block referer wouldn't want to opt-out anyway. :dunce:

So if BT actually test Phorm again & they still use these Web links, could any Web Server redirect the client & either log them out of BT Webwise or actually log then in when they are logged out!

phormwatch 03-08-2008 23:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34614181)
Possibly the same http://www.linkedin.com/in/snimmons

more from the PR guys

---------- Post added at 22:34 ---------- Previous post was at 22:32 ----------


I signed once for BB wich was fitted 20th July 2000 once 12 months are up they auto renew but monthly or mine was unless T&C have changed to extend it to 12 months again as some of BT's do.

I don't think this one is definitely one of Phorm's PR guys - the blog isn't really pro-behavioural targeting anyway.

pseudonym 03-08-2008 23:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SelfProtection (Post 34614183)
So if BT actually test Phorm again & they still use these Web links, could any Web Server redirect the client & either log them out of BT Webwise or actually log then in when they are logged out!


Not now Phorm have changed it to check referrer - unless someone finds a browser/ add-on flaw that allows them to spoof the browser's referrer - it used to be possible to spoof referrer using Flash, but that was fixed in recent versions.

Having read R.Clayton's analysis, I've an idea or two about other potential issues, but we won't know unless or until Phorm goes live so I'm in no hurry to find out if I'm right. And given all the delays, they've had plently of time to review their code and fix any other oversights.

SelfProtection 04-08-2008 00:13

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34614195)
Not now Phorm have changed it to check referrer - unless someone finds a browser/ add-on flaw that allows them to spoof the browser's referrer - it used to be possible to spoof referrer using Flash, but that was fixed in recent versions.

Having read R.Clayton's analysis, I've an idea or two about other potential issues, but we won't know unless or until Phorm goes live so I'm in no hurry to find out if I'm right. And given all the delays, they've had plently of time to review their code and fix any other oversights.

I'm not in any hurry to find out either, just checking the possible problems & options.

Rchivist 04-08-2008 00:27

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34613993)
Sorry my post last night may have been a bit confusing: I actually went out of my way to see if I could get the webwise website to place a Phorm cookie on my system via my Virgin Media cable connection as follows:

I had to navigate through pages of badly-linked stuff on the site, but eventually got to the following page:

http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/in.html

where I clicked on the link called "Switch ON Webwise".

This dropped a cookie on my system called uid with the path /services and an expiry date of 4th August 2009.

The content of this particular cookie (which I have since deleted) was ZrUyKoAJTTeD6iXeivlOpA|| which I believe adheres to the format outlined in Richard Clayton's paper (Quote:"Phorm told us that the UID which is allocated to the user is a 16 byte value chosen at random. That is to say it is just a number. It is not, for example, an encryption of some data that might later be decrypted. The actual value sent on the wire will be base-64 encoded, so it will be seen by humans as a 22 character string.")

The website that my browser (Safari) attributed to this cookie was a.webwise.net

All this was done over a Virgin Media cable connection via cpc1-pete8-0-0-custxxx.pete.cable.ntl.com

I hope this clarifies things for those who were worried.

That drops a similar uid cookie on my machine too if I "opt in"
Content: 7oKkf/UOR/+7bpcdPKXaMg||

I'm a BT customer.

---------- Post added at 23:27 ---------- Previous post was at 23:19 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by davews (Post 34614148)
Do you mean you are proposing changes to the already existing page on BT Total Broadband - on the URL you mentioned. That article has been there for a long time and has gone through quite a few changes, although not much in the Phorm/Webwise days. Surprisingly it is not even linked from the Phorm WP page, guess I can soon sort that out.

I have done a lot of editing on Wikipedia over the past couple of years. The normal rule applies - be bold and put in your changes and see what happens. But always to remember to follow Wikipedia policies and you will soon get put in your place if you start stating strong points of view or claims not backed up by authoritative references. I suspect a simple paragraph stating they have recently been involved in Phorm/Webwise and a link to the Phorm article will be enough, anything more will probably get stamped on. I know, I have been through all that, you soon find your place there...

Yes I thought a small extra paragraph about the same length and style as the one on throttling/p2p. Seemed appropriate. And yes - most of the point would be to generate links to Phorm/Webwise articles. The article has none at the moment.

madslug 04-08-2008 00:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34614178)
The opt-in and opt-out are on separate pages

OPT-IN = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/in.html

OPT-OUT = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/out.html

Bypassing the homepage and using either these links works for me (I'm not with one of the Phorm Three)

It must be my browser spoofing that messes up something in the scripts (the actual browser is not on the accepted list)
Code:

Request #286
GET http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in&success_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Fprivacy%2Fopt%2Fin-confirm.html&fail_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php&already_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1)
Accept-Charset: utf-8;q=0.9,utf-16;q=0.5,ISO-8859-1;q=0.7,*;q=0.6
Accept: text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5

Response #286
Status 403; http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in&success_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Fprivacy%2Fopt%2Fin-confirm.html&fail_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php&already_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php
Server: Apache
Connection: close
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:28:08 GMT
Content-Length: 213
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
P3p: CP="NOI DSP LAW CURa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa OUR STP BUS UNI COM NAV INT"

I can visit the success_url. Browser gives me the same message I see on the home page: "line 179:Null value" which I assume is the ISP sniffing or some other testing.

However, if I use Safari as a browser, I do get an a.webwise.net cookie for opted in but a .webwise.net cookie for opted out. And I am not on the phorming three either.

Conclusion: Not all browsers are equal, even when you spoof them to be an accepted browser through the useragent.

isf 04-08-2008 00:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614152)

More comedy featuring web 3.0, even the semantic web :erm: makes an appearance. It's like 2002 all over again, these guys really should go and read Shirky.

http://www.shirky.com/writings/semantic_syllogism.html
http://www.shirky.com/writings/ontology_overrated.html

Quote:

The backlash against Beacon and public meetings over Phorm indicate that the consumer must not be rushed. The Internet has an almost unique position in modern culture, for many a last bastion of escapism. We are profiled regularly in ‘real world’ retailing, resistance to which has largely faded, but Internet anonymity will not be easily surrendered. Trust, data security and privacy must be addressed with users and not ‘in spite of them’. The key sell is advertising ‘as content inline with user experience’. Enriching and non-interruptive models coupled with Semantic Web and Web3.0 herald an exciting future for the industry and Internet community.
Is this another futile attempt to broaden the discussion? I hope that's not a hidden assumption that the consumer should accept illegal interception if only they weren't rushed? I'm certainly not profiled in real world retailing, I have no loyalty cards and only gave in and got a credit card to make online purchases. There's no comparison to what Phorm want to do.

madslug 04-08-2008 01:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34614166)
That's what I thought - surely if I haven't signed anything they can't claim that it's valid?

Utilities work on verbal contracts (recorded phonecalls) - hence so much slamming before the sales forces sorted themselves out. And why utilities write to you to confirm that you are moving to a different supplier.

Most contracts have some clause which includes an 'auto renewal'. It protects users from being disconnected on the last day and having to pay for reconnection. Usually the renewal will be on a much shorter notice period, like one month. BT however works in 12/18 month contracts and charges for any unused portion if you ignore the need to give a minimum one months notice before the end of the contract if you don't want the auto renewal on original contract terms. If you read the small print on BT's special deals, there is a right mix of 1/12/18 month contracts for packages that 'renew' and look very similar.

pseudonym 04-08-2008 02:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by madslug (Post 34614231)
It must be my browser spoofing that messes up something in the scripts (the actual browser is not on the accepted list)
Code:

Request #286
GET http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in&success_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Fprivacy%2Fopt%2Fin-confirm.html&fail_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php&already_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php
User-Agent: Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 7.0; Windows NT 5.1)
Accept-Charset: utf-8;q=0.9,utf-16;q=0.5,ISO-8859-1;q=0.7,*;q=0.6
Accept: text/xml,application/xml,application/xhtml+xml,text/html;q=0.9,text/plain;q=0.8,image/png,*/*;q=0.5

Response #286
Status 403; http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in&success_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Fprivacy%2Fopt%2Fin-confirm.html&fail_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php&already_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.webwise.com%2Findex.php
Server: Apache
Connection: close
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:28:08 GMT
Content-Length: 213
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
P3p: CP="NOI DSP LAW CURa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa OUR STP BUS UNI COM NAV INT"


There's no "Referer:" header in your browser's request so their opt-in script is rejecting it with an error 403.

Quote:

I can visit the success_url. Browser gives me the same message I see on the home page: "line 179:Null value" which I assume is the ISP sniffing or some other testing.


I've previously noticed that error too - there's a div ID= uslocalselect on the web page, but no element called uklocalselect so the script below fails.
Code:

var res = '<a href="/privacy/policy/index.html" onClick="return setLocale(\'us\');"><img src="/images/flag-us-' + usstat + '.gif" name="Image98" width="23" height="15" border="0" id="Image98" onMouseOver="MM_swapImage(\'Image98\',\'\',\'/images/flag-us-on.gif\',1)" onMouseOut="MM_swapImgRestore()"></a>';

        document.getElementById('uslocaleselect').innerHTML = res;



        var res = '<a href="/privacy/policy/index.html" onClick="return setLocale(\'uk\');"><img src="/images/flag-uk-' + ukstat + '.gif" name="Image99" width="23" height="15" border="0" id="Image99" onMouseOver="MM_swapImage(\'Image99\',\'\',\'/images/flag-uk-on.gif\',1)" onMouseOut="MM_swapImgRestore()"></a>';

        document.getElementById('uklocaleselect').innerHTML = res;


isf 04-08-2008 03:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34614273)
There's no "Referer:" header in your browser's request so their opt-in script is rejecting it with an error 403.

Probably the least of their XSS problems given the presence of special redirect URL used to set the domain cookie.

Code:

Forbidden

You don't have permission to access /services/OO on this server.

Funny that, the feeling's mutual!

tarka 04-08-2008 08:34

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by pseudonym (Post 34614178)
The ISP check is carried out from the home page :- http://www.webwise.com/index.php

If you look on the left hand side it should say:-

"The Webwise feature
is not available
at this time."


The opt-in and opt-out are on separate pages


OPT-IN = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/in.html

OPT-OUT = http://www.webwise.com/privacy/opt/out.html

Bypassing the homepage and using either these links works for me (I'm not with one of the Phorm Three)

The opt-out link deletes the UID cookie and creates the opt-out cookie "OPTED_OUT=YES".



I believe they "fixed" the opt-in/opt-out script to check referrer a few months after I mentioned the remote opt-in issue over on ISPReview - So directly accessing the actual opt-in url http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in without spoofing referrer will give an error - I guess people who block referer wouldn't want to opt-out anyway. :dunce:

Ah, I think I know what I did. I went back to the same page and the link is actually "keep webwise off for now" not "turn webwise off". My bad. Going to the opt out page and clicking opt out does remove the uid cookie and set an opted out cookie.

bluecar1 04-08-2008 09:50

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34613120)

thats very interesting ass they have always denied knowing the URL you visit.

you can take that one stage further, what about keeping search engine URL's with the search data in them?

peter

---------- Post added at 08:50 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilago (Post 34613249)
The correct term is Without Prejudice and it should be at the top of the letter centred, in bold, above the Dear Sir/Madam bit. :)

With the NebuAd and Phorm lobbying about to get off the ground in the US, I would suggest you prepare for an onslaught of anti-Google, anti-social-networking (MySpace, Facebook etc.) propaganda. It will be designed to demonstrate how lilly-white and clean NebuAd and Phorm really are, while these other organisations have been really doing worse than them for years.

It might be a very good idea to prepare well thought out rebuttals. This sort of informercial stuff usually does get into the mainstream.

The Netflix DeAnonymiser algorithm is one place to start on unravelling their arguments on anonymity. The Gator connections to NebuAd and Phorm's previous life as 121Media "rootkit installer", origins should be useful as well.


in my house / networks all of the following are banned

search engine browser addins (spyware), social networking sites (virus and security risk),nice big hosts file to block majority of ads, and only me and the wife have unfiltered web access

peter

Graham M 04-08-2008 09:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34614317)
social networking sites (virus and security risk

Virus risk, how do you figure that? And it's only a security risk imo if you put your full address down

bluecar1 04-08-2008 10:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch (Post 34613401)
But Google Mail is doing just this, and where is the huge outcry? Facebook did just this with Beacon - and haven't pulled it, merely adapted it.

John, sorry, but it it is an advertising argument – and you telling me you can block all ads everywhere – you are having a laugh! Everything will have a digital connection – your Mobile, PC, TV, Outdoor – so pop-up blockers are going to have to get a lot more specific to block out all ads you are exposed to during your day…

I hear your frustration, and equally share it – but I also want you to see the much bigger picture (without negating any of your valid views)

Netscape floated in 1995 and started the dotcom rush. No-one could turn data into hard cash and hence dotcom crash. Google stood up with pay-per-click and turned the tide – and look at the superbrand they have become as result. And what happened to the ISPs – Like, where is Compuserve now?! AOL were forced to change their model too as people would not pay huge rates for accessing media/content online. Advertising was (as always) the basis for releasing content to the masses.

The internet was not designed to cope with huge volumes of video based content – and video is where the big money is. Big money to create and big money to distribute. Communication is an aspect of digital growth, entertainment content is the core desire – and hence why communication companies like BT, Sky and Virgin are becoming quad-play (communication, access, content, gaming).

Now BT Vision is about taking those media streams and making them dynamic and personally relevant. Dynamic advertising insertion that will be personable to the user is equally key as we all watch TV very different to how we did 40 years ago, which is when the TV model was born. We have more choice, which means harder for advertisers to lock-on to any person so broadcast TV is under threat as advertisers won’t pay as can no longer target based on viewing habits, users don’t want to pay BBC license fees, and as result no money coming in to create and distribute content – that is why they are looking for smarter alternatives, such as mobile phone in’s and crap reality programmes to create revenue to create decent TV programmes..

That is why they want Phorm - not just for 'website traffic' but to track what you are doing when you are communicating, surfing and watching TV content (hence Sky requirement of telephone line to supplement a receiver dish) and not only serve you relevant content from the plethora of channel choices out there now, but also to insert targeted and relevant ads into those TV streams, and as a result are happy to give away (eventually) free web access. (BT is planning on rolling out free wi-fi).

Google and Microsoft spent billions last year on acquiring ad technology for a reason. I know I work for their competitor. And all of us are in discussions not with website owners, but TV and mobile operators about how to maintain quality content that users want – and results show that people will choose ads over paying for content if given a choice.

Create demand, drop the price, fuel the masses… Look at iPhone G3 for a case in point. Its marketing.

So human rights, privacy issues are all thrown into this argument (and rightfully so I equally want to make sure these are given adequate consideration and why I personally went to a Parliament debate last month) but the bottom line is if you want to carry on watching TV – and Hi-Def TV – someone has to pay for it. So unless you have some clever argument of why you will pay thousands a year for internet access to cope with the video demands, and can prove others will do likewise, the only result is to look to advertising. No one likes crap or irrelevant ads, so how can web 3.0 create automated ways of doing just that? Welcome to the Phorm debate – as I said, it is DoubleClick cookies (content - web 1.0) and Facebook Beacon (communication - web 2.0) leading to Phorm (convergence – web 3.0).

So you think Phorm will die? Did DoubleClick when they were taken to court for tracking people in the 90’s – urrrmmm how much did Google pay for them last year?!

I have no huge answers, but you are not going to stop this (completely) as long as people want quality and relevant content – so surely will be better if we can think how can we ensure that there is an acceptable line for all parties that delivers relevance whilst maintaining (a degree) of anonymity?

Isn't that how we will win?


you are taking things out of context like phorm and BT

we all know we can't block ALL advertising , but we can serverly limit the amount we are exposed to as it is wasted screen space and bandwidth to most of us

the google pay per click argument is irrelevant as google only serve adverts on the own and affiliate sites the same with their tracking only works in those sites.

phorm spies on everything as it is imbedded in your (suposedly unmonitored) pipe to the net

we agree that there needs to be investment in core internet infrastructure by the ISP as the current infrastructure was not designed to handle the vast array of sevices, content and sheer volume it has to cope with these days.

but Talk Talk for instance offering a £299 laptop and reduced broadband line rental to try and get customers is not the way to generate the income required, the sums just do not add up, as we have said all along the likes of BE, Zen and co offer UK call centres, no gimicks, no discounts, no long term contracts and they make a reasonable profit and provide excellent quality of service so it can be done.

the likes of BT, VM and TT etc all try to lock you into multiple services on long contracts and have to realise poeple are getting wise to these smokescreens and tricks

as to privacy and how much you give up for a particular reason is a personal choice and should not be taken away from the individual by a company or government.

phorm is removing ALL PERSONAL PRIVACY as you can't bypass it other than leaving your ISP and hoping the new one does not get bought out by a phormette ISP

the ISP Partners of phorm need to completely change the model that phorm / BT Webwise is using, to give control of privacy back to the stakeholder / end user / client, but in doing this there will not be sufficient revenues for phorm to make a profit due to reduce data for them to sell (AAAWWWW SHAME)

and no we are all realistic on here and realise phorm will not die, but hopefully go away and return with a more acceptable product that does not remove a person basic right to privacy if they wish to have any.

peter

---------- Post added at 09:32 ---------- Previous post was at 09:24 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graham M (Post 34614320)
Virus risk, how do you figure that? And it's only a security risk imo if you put your full address down

ok let me rephrase that as malware risk. there are numerous reports of social network pages being laced with malware, some adware, some trojans and a few viruses

and my 9 an 15 year old daughters are banned from them , due to the above policy and the fact only my wife and i are admins on the PC's in the house all the computers in my house are clean and only have had viruseprotection alerts on my own PC due to some of the websites i visit to research things for work


peter

---------- Post added at 09:41 ---------- Previous post was at 09:32 ----------


Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch (Post 34613490)
Agreed! DO I agree with Police having access to little black boxes at ISP level, What about your boss monitoring what goes on via your exchange server? So you look at something online, against company rules, and you get sacked. How would that stand in court? That is generally the thrust of that argument.

Snip

I am answering your question to show their side, as opposed to endorsing methods, here.

again you are trying to blur facts and service

my employers content monitoring systems monitor me at work or when i connect to services via the VPN to our offices. this is totally different to monitoring EVERYTHING AS PHORM / BT WEBWISE does. to that is a totally irrelevant argument

also we have to agree to a monitoring policy as part of our employment contract, not have some change slipped into small print via a click on a website

and the content is not routinely monitored

this is relevant to the topic as it shows smoke and mirrors being deployed to try and confuse issues by pro-phorm community is not comparing like with like, to try and justify the spyware boxes ISP's and phorm are trying to foist on unsuspecting punters

peter

ilago 04-08-2008 11:34

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34614317)
in my house / networks all of the following are banned

search engine browser addins (spyware), social networking sites (virus and security risk),nice big hosts file to block majority of ads, and only me and the wife have unfiltered web access

peter

I think you may have misunderstood what I was getting at. I think the heavy PR and lobbying hired by Phorm and NebuAd will be using google and social networking as one of their arguments to make Phorm and NebuAd look good or become more acceptable.

I do seriously expect something like a rash of anti-google "research" results to appear and be published in the mainstream media. Even scare tactics like "google data leak" are not beyond the imagination. This will then be pointed to as some sort of twisted reasoning to make DPI wiretapping/interception look somehow better :(

Do you remember the movie "Wag the Dog"?

TheBruce1 04-08-2008 12:15

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1
but Talk Talk for instance offering a £299 laptop and reduced broadband line rental to try and get customers is not the way to generate the income required, the sums just do not add up, as we have said all along the likes of BE, Zen and co offer UK call centres, no gimicks, no discounts, no long term contracts and they make a reasonable profit and provide excellent quality of service so it can be done.

the likes of BT, VM and TT etc all try to lock you into multiple services on long contracts and have to realise poeple are getting wise to these smokescreens and tricks

This is so true, VM for example are offering broadband for £4.50 for new customers, come on, how are they going to make money on those accounts, would they even be able to cover their costs, this is why the like`s of BT, VM and TT have to crawl into bed with phorm, pooerly run ISP`s.

The internet was around long before ISP`s were and the internet was not founded on advertising, its only greedy ISP(and it seems the government also)that wish to control the content of the internet, this is what it is all about.

Is this where it is leading too.
http://www.godlikeproductions.com/fo...sage559762/pg1

In this day and age where greed is abound, i will not rule anything in or out, with phorm`s kit inside the ISP the points above do not sound too far away, this and many other reasons, Phorm(and others)must be stopped

Rchivist 04-08-2008 12:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch (Post 34613401)

Google and Microsoft spent billions last year on acquiring ad technology for a reason. I know I work for their competitor. And all of us are in discussions not with website owners, but TV and mobile operators about how to maintain quality content that users want – and results show that people will choose ads over paying for content if given a choice.

As others are also pointing out - and we really are quite tired of doing so - especially this late in the game - google and Webwise are quite quite different.

It's very simple. Just draw a diagram showing you, the isp, and the rest of the internet, including other websites, and also including the google search site and their webmail system, then insert the words "Google" or "Webwise" in the appropriate place on the diagram. Then see how much choice is left for the consumer.

Webwise is between me and the rest of the internet. No bypass available. If my ISP adopt it, I go through the DPI kit on my way to the internet. No choice. opted in or opted out, it's between me and the internet. I have to go through that DPI kit and get intercepted, and probably profiled too (even if I can't be tracked - and quite frankly I don't trust them not to do that either)
Google tracking only occurs when I use the google search engine (if I keep google cookies and a constant IP address). If I don't like gmail I don't have to correspond with anyone with a gmail address (except once to tell them so).

But I CAN'T avoid Webwise/Phorm DPI. I can't get out of my "front door" without going through their kit. It's like they've built a porch over my front door. They own the porch. They decide what furniture is in the porch, They have hidden cameras and microphones in that porch. They strip search me as I go through it, and want to know who I am going to see, where I am going. And I don't like that. I wouldn't like it if they were honest. But they have phorm, previous, a record. So I like it even less. And it is just so they can make money, and probably also so the government can use the facility whenever they might feel like keeping an eye on me.

I take that seriously. As a church pastor, I am a member of a people group that experience this sort of surveillance in various countries around the world ALREADY. I'd rather it didn't catch on here.

It really is that simple. It's not the tracking, it's not the adverts, it's WHERE it's happening, it's HOW it's happening, it's the lack of genuine choice, and of course it's the multiple layers of illegality and the stealth that goes with criminal behaviour that we object to. As well as the corporate arrogance.

Have we got that clear? Can we discuss the finer points of advertising and media elsewhere? Can we stick to the point?

Thank you for listening.

lucevans 04-08-2008 12:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34614383)
As others are also pointing out - and we really are quite tired of doing so - especially this late in the game - google and Webwise are quite quite different.

It's very simple. Just draw a diagram showing you, the isp, and the rest of the internet, including other websites, and also including the google search site and their webmail system, then insert the words "Google" or "Webwise" in the appropriate place on the diagram. Then see how much choice is left for the consumer.

Webwise is between me and the rest of the internet. No bypass available. If my ISP adopt it, I go through the DPI kit on my way to the internet. No choice. opted in or opted out, it's between me and the internet. I have to go through that DPI kit and get intercepted, and probably profiled too (even if I can't be tracked - and quite frankly I don't trust them not to do that either)
Google tracking only occurs when I use the google search engine (if I keep google cookies and a constant IP address). If I don't like gmail I don't have to correspond with anyone with a gmail address (except once to tell them so).

But I CAN'T avoid Webwise/Phorm DPI. I can't get out of my "front door" without going through their kit. It's like they've built a porch over my front door. They own the porch. They decide what furniture is in the porch, They have hidden cameras and microphones in that porch. They strip search me as I go through it, and want to know who I am going to see, where I am going. And I don't like that. I wouldn't like it if they were honest. But they have phorm, previous, a record. So I like it even less. And it is just so they can make money, and probably also so the government can use the facility whenever they might feel like keeping an eye on me.

I take that seriously. As a church pastor, I am a member of a people group that experience this sort of surveillance in various countries around the world ALREADY. I'd rather it didn't catch on here.

It really is that simple. It's not the tracking, it's not the adverts, it's WHERE it's happening, it's HOW it's happening, it's the lack of genuine choice, and of course it's the multiple layers of illegality and the stealth that goes with criminal behaviour that we object to. As well as the corporate arrogance.

Have we got that clear? Can we discuss the finer points of advertising and media elsewhere? Can we stick to the point?

Thank you for listening.

Very well put. :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

icsys 04-08-2008 12:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Some news just in.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF), has released a tool known as 'Switzerland', currently an alpha version, for testing the neutrality of internet service providers (ISPs).

The EFF says that Switzerland should be able to detect advertising injection systems like Phorm, anti-P2P tools from Sandvine and AudibleMagic and censorship systems like the Great Firewall of China, but is not limited to these detections as it can spot any packet modifications.

here's the link to the full story

roadrunner69 04-08-2008 12:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34614383)
As others are also pointing out - and we really are quite tired of doing so - especially this late in the game - google and Webwise are quite quite different.

It's very simple. Just draw a diagram showing you, the isp, and the rest of the internet, including other websites, and also including the google search site and their webmail system, then insert the words "Google" or "Webwise" in the appropriate place on the diagram. Then see how much choice is left for the consumer.

Webwise is between me and the rest of the internet. No bypass available. If my ISP adopt it, I go through the DPI kit on my way to the internet. No choice. opted in or opted out, it's between me and the internet. I have to go through that DPI kit and get intercepted, and probably profiled too (even if I can't be tracked - and quite frankly I don't trust them not to do that either)
Google tracking only occurs when I use the google search engine (if I keep google cookies and a constant IP address). If I don't like gmail I don't have to correspond with anyone with a gmail address (except once to tell them so).

But I CAN'T avoid Webwise/Phorm DPI. I can't get out of my "front door" without going through their kit. It's like they've built a porch over my front door. They own the porch. They decide what furniture is in the porch, They have hidden cameras and microphones in that porch. They strip search me as I go through it, and want to know who I am going to see, where I am going. And I don't like that. I wouldn't like it if they were honest. But they have phorm, previous, a record. So I like it even less. And it is just so they can make money, and probably also so the government can use the facility whenever they might feel like keeping an eye on me.

I take that seriously. As a church pastor, I am a member of a people group that experience this sort of surveillance in various countries around the world ALREADY. I'd rather it didn't catch on here.

It really is that simple. It's not the tracking, it's not the adverts, it's WHERE it's happening, it's HOW it's happening, it's the lack of genuine choice, and of course it's the multiple layers of illegality and the stealth that goes with criminal behaviour that we object to. As well as the corporate arrogance.

Have we got that clear? Can we discuss the finer points of advertising and media elsewhere? Can we stick to the point?

Thank you for listening.

Well said Rob. :clap::clap::clap::clap:
The Anti DPI for profit campaign encapsulated in a single post.
Stripped of all the fluff and side tracks, this is the core of all our objections that our ISPs, advertisers, pro-phorm bloggers and many in government, just don't get.

Christ, it's not THAT hard to understand...... is it? :banghead:

icsys 04-08-2008 13:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by madslug (Post 34614111)
While on the subject of Webwise, I notice that the Phorm site is still talking about TalkTalk starting to use Webwise in the summer of 2008.
There is still nothing about Webwise on the TalkTalk site. Their Privacy Statement says little that could indicate a 3rd party like Webwise being used.

Does anyone know where TalkTalk customers 'hang out'? I have not noticed anyone on any of the Phorm-aware forums mentioning that they use TalkTalk.

http://www.talktalkmembers.com/

TheBruce1 04-08-2008 13:18

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
Netscape floated in 1995 and started the dotcom rush. No-one could turn data into hard cash and hence dotcom crash

AOL ruined Netscape, many left and started the Mozilla Foundation(Firefox).

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
Google stood up with pay-per-click and turned the tide – and look at the superbrand they have become as result.

Google stayed afloat because they gave people want they wanted, no what ad-men said that they customers wanted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
Like, where is Compuserve now?! AOL were forced to change their model too as people would not pay huge rates for accessing media/content online. Advertising was (as always) the basis for releasing content to the masses.

Absolute nonsense, i can watch any number of movies/sport/ tv-programs online without the need for advertising, as for AOL/Compuserve they where/still poorly run ISP`s, nothing more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
The internet was not designed to cope with huge volumes of video based content – and video is where the big money is. Big money to create and big money to distribute. Communication is an aspect of digital growth, entertainment content is the core desire – and hence why communication companies like BT, Sky and Virgin are becoming quad-play (communication, access, content, gaming).

Here we go again, more PR talk, if your business model cannot handle expansion then maybe they should invest in that model first, some ISP`s can do this without the need for spyvertising.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
Now BT Vision is about taking those media streams and making them dynamic and personally relevant. Dynamic advertising insertion that will be personable to the user is equally key as we all watch TV very different to how we did 40 years ago

What does this mean, dynamic advertising, me thinks you do not know, its all double-talk, says nothing, means nothing, please clarify.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
We have more choice, which means harder for advertisers to lock-on to any person so broadcast TV is under threat as advertisers won’t pay as can no longer target based on viewing habits, users don’t want to pay BBC license fees, and as result no money coming in to create and distribute content – that is why they are looking for smarter alternatives, such as mobile phone in’s and crap reality programmes to create revenue to create decent TV programmes..

Maybe the networks should start taking a look at their content, if you broadcast rubbish, what do you expect.
One of the great things about the internet is it is not Television, i can watch what i want and when i want, no advertisement, which is great.

And yes i could live without TV/internet as i have done so before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
That is why they want Phorm - not just for 'website traffic' but to track what you are doing when you are communicating, surfing and watching TV content (hence Sky requirement of telephone line to supplement a receiver dish) and not only serve you relevant content from the plethora of channel choices out there now, but also to insert targeted and relevant ads into those TV streams, and as a result are happy to give away (eventually) free web access. (BT is planning on rolling out free wi-fi).

Which is why many people i know are moving away from using one media company for all(phone, tv, internet), with the onset of phorm i see moving away from quad service`s increasing dramatically.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
but the bottom line is if you want to carry on watching TV – and Hi-Def TV – someone has to pay for it.

What has this do to with Phorm watching you online, i do not mind adverts on tv, but not on my internet connection.

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch
I have no huge answers, but you are not going to stop this (completely) as long as people want quality and relevant content – so surely will be better if we can think how can we ensure that there is an acceptable line for all parties that delivers relevance whilst maintaining (a degree) of anonymity?

Do not be so sure, internet users can make a differnece, we can blacklist certain ISP`s, we can do many things online, maybe such as Alliance of Non-Phormed Internet Providers(ANPIP), these are ISP that could be recommeded, no customers, no phorm.

madslug 04-08-2008 13:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34614317)
thats very interesting ass they have always denied knowing the URL you visit.

you can take that one stage further, what about keeping search engine URL's with the search data in them?

---------- Post added at 08:50 ---------- Previous post was at 08:40 ----------

in my house / networks all of the following are banned

search engine browser addins (spyware), social networking sites (virus and security risk),nice big hosts file to block majority of ads, and only me and the wife have unfiltered web access

peter

My understanding always was that they use the resulting URL from the GET request to read the search query - they can't read the form input. No point in processing the whole results page as the content will only dilute the search phrase relevance.

Any site that allows user input, whether search engine, networking site or forum is a security risk from malware and viruses. Any ad network can be infected by ads that download malware and viruses. Search engines have been used via redirects to the final destination or sending people to spoofed pages that looked like the original site. Banners have long been used to download malware and distributed via ad networks. Even 3rd party tracking scripts which have been used for years have become infected with malware.

Any site visited should be considered a security risk. User input just increases the risk.

Digbert 04-08-2008 14:24

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34614328)
..... as we have said all along the likes of BE, Zen and co offer UK call centres, no gimicks, no discounts, no long term contracts and they make a reasonable profit and provide excellent quality of service so it can be done.


peter

BE's call centre is in Bulgaria.

And just to keep on topic I like the quote from the ACLU:

"DPI allows ISPs to have access to all of your searches, friends and family, anything you read and email, any sites you visit and any comments you post. DPI is a virtual strip search for you and your computer."
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/internet...s20080721.html

madslug 04-08-2008 14:26

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarquin L-Smythe (Post 34614173)

An interesting forum. Read post from matt and stephen for a TT 'official' line. In particular matt's post of 5th March covering the OIX use of competitor URLs makes very disturbing reading. Targeting competitor visitors like this is legal?
Quote:

Lets say mr tasty the bakers wants to launch an advertising campaign through WebWise. They want to advertise their new vanilla slice to people searching for cream cakes but not pastry products.

They build an advertising profile saying something along the lines of

1. looking for bakers, bakery, cakes, cream pie, eclair
2. not looking at pasties, pies, sausage rolls
3. are visiting websites such as www.cakesrus.com, www.creamygoodness.com or www.massiveeclairs.com
4. are not visiting websites such as www.savourydelights.com, www.meatpiesrus.com, www.porkpies4u.com , www.pastiestoyourdoor.com
5. In a two hour period

(I apologise if any of those sites exist by the way, I made them all up).
Removing cookies is an interesting idea - makes it harder to detect illegal copying of web sites.

If only BT would consider the opt-in model too. Maybe they are and that explains the delay.

Florence 04-08-2008 14:32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Digbert (Post 34614448)
BE's call centre is in Bulgaria.

And just to keep on topic I like the quote from the ACLU:

"DPI allows ISPs to have access to all of your searches, friends and family, anything you read and email, any sites you visit and any comments you post. DPI is a virtual strip search for you and your computer."
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/internet...s20080721.html


That is one of the best ways to describe DPI I wonder how Microsofts latest news of their future will fit in with DPI or more what more will it lay bare for DPI to strip off the bone..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7540282.stm

IT technology is always changing yet looking at phorm it hasn't changed much it still sticks to root so still rootkit. still intercepts so not moved on much from early 2000. Also was illegal then and still illegal.

How will it handle a total change of direction by Microsoft...

AlexanderHanff 04-08-2008 15:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch (Post 34613490)
Agreed! DO I agree with Police having access to little black boxes at ISP level, What about your boss monitoring what goes on via your exchange server? So you look at something online, against company rules, and you get sacked. How would that stand in court? That is generally the thrust of that argument.

I guess the anology would be better would be what right does WH Smith have to have a say in how to advertise in magazines on their shelves, and by that I mean they are far removed from the media publisher. Reality is WHS are keen to justify effects of circulation versus advertising having an impact on the audience alongside the publisher. To that level media IS about reaching the right audience, and if they could work out that one store sells one type of magazine based on their demographics aginst another store, then their is a connection between the seller and the media publisher, and what magazines to stock.

Now appreciate the web is a different gambit, but to some degree they are operating as a conduit. I think that is how the ISPs see themelsves in relation to the website owners. They are not mutually exclusive.

I am answering your question to show their side, as opposed to endorsing methods, here.

Well Well so you are the front line of the Phorm PR Campaign now eh? Just been catching up on your posts and whereas your prose are nicely gilded you don't appear to have listened to a word anyone has said or even taken into consideration the issues being raised.

Firstly Phorm is illegal; there are no ifs or buts it is illegal under common/civil law and it is illegal under criminal law and no amount of pretty words is going to change that.

As for your analogy above about a company reading emails that come in on their Exchange Server, you need to research this a little more because yes it is criminally illegal and yes there has been case law which found parties guilty and issued a criminal sentence as a result (See Demon Internet CEO case) and the decision -was- upheld on appeal AND the case was prosecuted as a violation of RIPA.

You ask Peter where he was during the parliamentary debate on this issue, well surely if you had the all singing all dancing tracking world that you envision you would already know that. I was in the House of Lords discussing these issues with the Earl of Northesk and in communications with Baroness Miller whim both work in one of the Houses of Parliament.

I suggest you make sure you get your Cheque and it clears from Phorm before typing more as their funds are dwindling and I hate for you not to be able to cover your mortgage should the cheque bounce.

You seem to think this is a guaranteed scenario and that Phorm -will- win; I beg to differ. They have currently lost the battle in the US, lost the battle in Canada, lost the battle with the European Commission and really annoyed the South Koreans. They will lose the battle here in the UK too (in fact I would say they already have looking at their share price and the complete lack of confidence in their stock.)

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 13:51 ---------- Previous post was at 13:45 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by feesch (Post 34613522)
Last time I tried to get sky (couple of years back), and knowing from others who subscibe to service, it 'was' a requirement. Would need to check if has subsequently changed then. Either way, that was their reason and intention. Why else would there there be a need to faciliaite a two-way connection to a satellite box? Curious to know if they have ditched this or have some technological improvement to facilitate this another way, as they would need to 'see' what the viewer is doing for business justification surely?

Actually I will support you on this, Sky T&C state that for the first 12 months you must have a telephone line plugged in to your box. However, the box still works without the phone line plugged into it and after 12 months there is no longer any requirement under T&C. Furthermore, Sky to my knowledge have made very very little attempt to enforce their T&C on this point.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 14:02 ---------- Previous post was at 13:51 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34613908)
OK, so I've had no offers to distribute Phorm Flyers on the Tube. I live 2 hours from London, so it would be a right pain for me to do it.

If no one is willing to take this up, then we should concentrate on other ways of getting the word out. Talking amongst ourselves on CableForum will do little to further the campaign unless what we talk about translates into action.

Any concrete ideas, suggestions?

Portly Giraffe emailed me about this I believe he has something planned.

Alexander hanff

phormwatch 04-08-2008 15:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I've just started a Wikispace - primarily for quotations related to dpi, but also as a collaborative information tool.

It can be found here:

http://nodpi.wikispaces.com/

I've sent out a few invites, but not many, since I don't have many email addresses.

If you would like to become an editing member, send me a PM, and a reference from someone who is already a member.

---------- Post added at 14:07 ---------- Previous post was at 14:03 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Digbert (Post 34614448)
BE's call centre is in Bulgaria.

And just to keep on topic I like the quote from the ACLU:

"DPI allows ISPs to have access to all of your searches, friends and family, anything you read and email, any sites you visit and any comments you post. DPI is a virtual strip search for you and your computer."
http://www.aclu.org/privacy/internet...s20080721.html

Added to the wiki quotes page!

AlexanderHanff 04-08-2008 15:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34614147)
I think my contract expires at the end of the month - I simply plan not to renew

Bad plan, you should put it in writing that you do not wish to renew or they will automatically renew it for you and try to sting you if you cancel after the effect.

Alexander Hanff

phormwatch 04-08-2008 15:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Welcome back, Alex! Exams over? How did they go?

AlexanderHanff 04-08-2008 15:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614499)
Welcome back, Alex! Exams over? How did they go?

No exam was cancelled last week it is this Thursday now. But as I promised I have been keeping up with the news and this thread so I just wanted to respond to the new Phorm PR front line man on the points he poorly argued.

Alexander Hanff

Florence 04-08-2008 15:20

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
:D El reg has hit the good one again

Campaigners celebrate Comcastration http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...cast_reaction/

Well we only need to follow either with our government leading or dragged behind with wrist slapped for failure..

BetBlowWhistler 04-08-2008 15:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34614466)
Actually I will support you on this, Sky T&C state that for the first 12 months you must have a telephone line plugged in to your box. However, the box still works without the phone line plugged into it and after 12 months there is no longer any requirement under T&C. Furthermore, Sky to my knowledge have made very very little attempt to enforce their T&C on this point.

Alexander Hanff

I can back this up as I had this very issue when I upgrade from Sky to Sky+ (as a result of moving house too).

Initially we had no way of connecting the box to the master socket and getting a slave terminal installed involved listed buildings permission...and so it dragged on for several months. They _were_ persistant, but I was patient and after 12 months they stopped asking :)

After reading the PR man's postings I have come to the conclusion that Ad people talk a different language completely to the one I am familiar with. I believe it has to do with the focus of your intent.

As a techie, my language is usually straightfoward and (hopefully) succinct which reflects my intentions.

My observations of ad-people-speak is that their language is evasive, manipulative and wordy to the point of obfuscation, which I believe is a measure of _their_ intentions.

Wildie 04-08-2008 15:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
forget BE here they keep telling me they can only offer 1.5mbit d/l I question that seeing I am on 8mbit which actually gives me 7.6mbit and has done for many years, they said it is the info they got from you know who.

phormwatch 04-08-2008 16:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I hope you all will help contribute to the nodpi wiki page. http://nodpi.wikispaces.com/

Please send in any quotes to my phormwatch address or edit the pages yourselves.

You can add anything you want, not just quotes.

Deko 04-08-2008 17:49

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
@ Mr Hannff
PIA still MIA !!! Any news on this ?

Any news on the case file handed into the police ?

AlexanderHanff 04-08-2008 17:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Deko (Post 34614600)
@ Mr Hannff
PIA still MIA !!! Any news on this ?

Any news on the case file handed into the police ?

Simon is out of the country again for the rest of the month. Still nothing from the police I will be contacting them on Friday.

Alexander Hanff

Tharrick 04-08-2008 18:25

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34614495)
Bad plan, you should put it in writing that you do not wish to renew or they will automatically renew it for you and try to sting you if you cancel after the effect.

Alexander Hanff

Nah, I managed to get hold of them today and cancelled. Contract expires on the 9th of September, and they won't be renewing it.

Privacy_Matters 04-08-2008 18:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by philj (Post 34614061)
Response from Virgin Media regarding email telling them I was posting letter (Data Protection Act) and my disgust at any implementation of Phorm or anything like it

Thank you for your e-mail dated 2 August 2008 concerning Virgin Media using PHORM.

I am sorry that you feel this way. Phorm Is there to safegaurd our customers not to transfer information about our users. Webwise checks these sites against a list of fraudulent sites and warns customers if they're heading to one. They're given the option to continue to that site, so Webwise won't restrict their online experience in any way, but at least they'll be able to decide for themselves, and avoid the chance of this form of identity theft. In this way Webwise helps to secure our customers' privacy.

Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant advertising. As customers browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done without collecting any personal information, so once again their privacy is protected. These topics are then used to help filter out adverts that might be irrelevant - instead they'll simply see an advert that will match a topic they're are more interested in.

Webwise doesn't capture or store any customer's personal details, only anonymous information about advertising categories that may be of interest to them. Webwise places a common cookie in web browsers - a small computer code with a unique, randomly generated number on it. With this cookie, Webwise can deliver warnings of potentially dangerous websites and replace untargeted ads with more relevant ones. This cookie can be deleted at any time.

Virgin Media strives to provide excellent service to all its loyal customers. I am sorry for any inconvenience. If you have further queries regarding this matter or any other issue, please use the link provided below:

I put this to VM on the Feedback NG:

>So, hows about some clarification - are you going to accuse your Staff of
>incompetently drafting an incorrect mail, or would you care to confirm you
>have implemented Phorm?

Nothing has been implemented on the network. I'll feed back the
wording to the customer care team - it could have been better.




<Name Removed>

--

<Name Removed>
Senior Product Manager
Product Management, Virgin Media


This is as good as it gets from VM

Florence 04-08-2008 18:30

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Tharrick (Post 34614614)
Nah, I managed to get hold of them today and cancelled. Contract expires on the 9th of September, and they won't be renewing it.


Take care they tell you to dispose of the modem in a eviromentle friendly way then threaten to charge you for it after so keep the modem if thye will not supply an address to sent it to like they didn't for me.

Tharrick 04-08-2008 18:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I asked when I spoke to them and they said that they wouldn't be requiring the modem back. It'll join the pile of other VM and NTL modems lying around in the house.. I've got 3 or 4 from previous tenants.

phormwatch 04-08-2008 20:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Do we have a definite number for the number of people affected or the number of page interceptions which occured during the 2007 covert trials? I need a counterfactual quote to:

"BT can confirm that we conducted a very small scale technical test of a prototype advertising platform on one exchange in June 2007. The test was specifically conducted to evaluate the functional and technical performance of the platform. Absolutely no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during this trial. As with all Service Providers, it is important for BT to ensure that, before any potential new technologies are employed, they are robust and fit for purpose."
- Adam Liversage, Chief Press Officer of BT

---------- Post added at 19:31 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...imping_letter/

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...le-ms-aol.html

Hank 04-08-2008 21:30

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Where do I find your "Tube Leaflet" Phormwatch?

I have a trip to make next week and may be in the general vacinity :D

Hank

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------

Alexander - You have a PM :)

phormwatch 04-08-2008 21:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank (Post 34614801)
Where do I find your "Tube Leaflet" Phormwatch?

I have a trip to make next week and may be in the general vacinity :D

Hank

---------- Post added at 20:30 ---------- Previous post was at 20:29 ----------

Alexander - You have a PM :)


http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phor...Phormwatch.pdf

http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phor...Phormwatch.pdf

philj 04-08-2008 22:05

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php

How long has this been up?
Is it old speel?

Philj

madslug 04-08-2008 22:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614700)
Do we have a definite number for the number of people affected or the number of page interceptions which occured during the 2007 covert trials? I need a counterfactual quote to:
<snip>

I know BT have talked about 1-2%. Was that for both trials or only the 2006 trial? 1% = 30-34k of residential or 40-44k of all customers.

JackSon 04-08-2008 22:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by philj (Post 34614822)
http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php

How long has this been up?
Is it old speel?

Philj


I think it's been up there since around March, not long after the 'deal' (in whatever form it was) was made between Phorm and the big 3. The page has changed a bit here and there over time though.

philj 04-08-2008 22:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Ta,
did nt know about this lark till I read it on here. ba88888s

Phil

Dephormation 04-08-2008 22:11

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614700)
Do we have a definite number for the number of people affected or the number of page interceptions which occured during the 2007 covert trials? I need a counterfactual quote to:

"BT can confirm that we conducted a very small scale technical test of a prototype advertising platform on one exchange in June 2007. The test was specifically conducted to evaluate the functional and technical performance of the platform. Absolutely no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during this trial. As with all Service Providers, it is important for BT to ensure that, before any potential new technologies are employed, they are robust and fit for purpose."
- Adam Liversage, Chief Press Officer of BT

One of the Phorm annual reports describing the 2006 trial refers to a forthcoming trial involving several hundred thousand users.

The 2006 report also makes the same statement (believe it mentions 350,000 users).

Earl of Northesk in the interview with Alex mentions he believes it was 160,000 based on information he has.

It was not small scale by any measure, neither was the 2006 trial.

phormwatch 04-08-2008 22:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Thanks Pete, but I need a quote and a source.

I read the leaked document, but that only refers specifically to the 2006 trials, whereas the quote pertains to the 2007 trials.

Dephormation 04-08-2008 22:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by philj (Post 34614825)
Ta,
did nt know about this lark till I read it on here. ba88888s

Phil

That's the second draft of it. The first draft in April was much more gung ho.

In April they were talking about a partnership with Phorm, and an imminent launch (VM's own website, not Phorm).

So take what they are saying at the moment with a pinch of salt. They are waiting to see how BT's misery pans out.

In the meantime, notes on moving from cable to a Phorm free ISP are here.

---------- Post added at 21:16 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614827)
Thanks Pete, but I need a quote and a source.

I read the leaked document, but that only refers specifically to the 2006 trials, whereas the quote pertains to the 2007 trials.

Gimme a sec! :)

Would I leave you unquoted? :)

Watch this post bwana...

Quote 1)

The Reg article mentioning the hundreds of thousands figure from the annual report. BT's 'illegal' 2007 Phorm trial profiled tens of thousands

Quote 2)

Phorm Annual Report April 24
"In Q4 of 2006, we conducted a live user trial of PageSense with a UK ISP, and we are about to start a larger trial of ProxySense with a test base of several hundred thousand users."
Kent Ertugrul
Chief Executive Officer
23 April 2007


Quote 3)

Wikileaked BT report into the 2006 trial (site currently down?)

"Phase 2 testing will also validate the features and performance of the 121Media Media Planning tool. The test will also run on a much larger userbased (approx 350,000) and statistically useful numbers will provide more information on the commercial model" (page 5/52)

Quote 4)

Wikileaked BT report into the 2006 trial (site currently down?)

(same quote as above repeated) (page 42/52)

Quote 5)

Wikileaked BT report into the 2006 trial (site currently down?)

"A second phase Pilot deployment will be undertaken with a larger userbase"
(page 5/52) (ie, greater than 18,000 in the first trial)


more coming... or there would be if I could find the EoN transcripts... he corrects Alistair at one point and says words to the effect, "my information is 160,000", I'll see if I can find it in the audio (unless someone can direct me to a transcript).

phormwatch 04-08-2008 22:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
lol ;)

Perfect! Thanks Pete!

xlmp 04-08-2008 22:20

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Hello,

I have BT as my provider and i am not happy at all with this plan to implement Webwise/webstupid. I have written my MP, the people in the EU, BT and have voiced my opinions on the BT beta forum.

Even though i live in England and have a GB passport i am American at heart as i lived in Santa Cruz, California for the great majority of my life so far. Santa Cruz is by far the most liberal of counties in the union apart from San Fransisco. Not that smoking marijuana has anything to do with Phorm but i helped canvass for prop 215 when it first came out so this will give you an idea of my political stance on ones right to privacy, hopefully.

As it turns out i may have been part of this trial since my father had BT at the time of the trials but BT will not tell us who was and who was not in the trial. Knowing that i could have been spied upon does not make me a happy bunny at all and i am doing all i can to get the word out that BT is making plans to spy on people on a massive scale.

I only have a few more months left with BT and even if they do not get this thing going i am going to leave since they did conduct secret trials on people.

BT sucks and i hope they crash and burn along with their stocks.

phormwatch 04-08-2008 22:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Hey ximp! Welcome to the forum.

We share your anger. :)

---------- Post added at 21:35 ---------- Previous post was at 21:27 ----------

Pete-

Yo! Stop! It's cool, man. The quotes about what they were going to do can't be used, since they've since stated that the trial was in fact much smaller than originally intended. I have used the Register quote. That'll do fine. Thanks!

wecpc 04-08-2008 22:52

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I see that the Beta.BT forum is down yet again, maybe it has got a touch of PHORMITIS.

Colin

Dephormation 04-08-2008 23:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by xlmp (Post 34614833)
Even though i live in England and have a GB passport i am American at heart as i lived in Santa Cruz, California for the great majority of my life so far. Santa Cruz is by far the most liberal of counties in the union apart from San Fransisco. Not that smoking marijuana has anything to do with Phorm but i helped canvass for prop 215 when it first came out so this will give you an idea of my political stance on ones right to privacy, hopefully.

Hello!
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/25.pnghttps://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/26.png

madslug 04-08-2008 23:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34614828)
more coming... or there would be if I could find the EoN transcripts... he corrects Alistair at one point and says words to the effect, "my information is 160,000", I'll see if I can find it in the audio (unless someone can direct me to a transcript).

Judging by the length of text, this quote comes from around 1h15m to 1h20m
Quote:

AH> Given the possibility that BT involved a possible 130,000 customers, this is based on the reports we have had in the press, in the trails, do you believe the gravity of this issue requires direct government action as opposed to the local police force?

EoN> Local police inforcement for this issue would be inappropriate in any event. It is a deeply complex issue technologically and the lack of ability ... would not be able to handle it. So you get back to the way in which a nation, the TCU emasculated within Soca and that sort of thing - give us part of the question again, I have forgotten.

AH> Given the possibility of the quantity ...

EoN> Yes, it is extremely serious in my view and I dispair that ... that the authorities are ...

AH> Passing the buck?

EoN> It is not only passing the buck ... they are being dismissive of it. Sure, it is a bit like a hot potato. So the Home Office passes it to the ICO. The ICO passes it to Socca so round and round the mulberry bush we go. So in that sense there is a degree of passing the buck. But I think there is a more serious issue: it is that presumption that appears to exist that dispite affecting and reports of 130,000. I have heard as many as 160,000. And not all of them will be as disgruntled as each other but nevertheless a fair proportion of them will and this is potentially a criminal offence. And the authorities, whoever it may be, to treat it so dismissively. It is the dismissiveness that I find so objectionable.

Portly_Giraffe 04-08-2008 23:41

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Hank (Post 34614801)
Where do I find your "Tube Leaflet" Phormwatch?

I have a trip to make next week and may be in the general vacinity :D

Hank

You can certainly use the Phormwatch special edition. Alternatively I've put a new set up on Inphormationdesk, tidying up the text and offering it in different formats:

Black for printing 2-up landscape 2-sided on A4 paper and then guillotining into two A5 flyers (probably the most useful format):
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_A5.pdf

Black for printing 2-sided on A5 paper:
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_A5.pdf

Original navy A4 with optional House of Commons and BT addresses on the back:
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer.pdf

Special edition for MPs, navy A4 :
http://www.inphormationdesk.org/Phorm_Flyer_MP.pdf

Feel free to use - also please let me have any corrections and suggestions, and let me know if any other points of contact should be listed.

Dephormation 04-08-2008 23:49

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614837)
Pete-

Yo! Stop! It's cool, man. The quotes about what they were going to do can't be used, since they've since stated that the trial was in fact much smaller than originally intended. I have used the Register quote. That'll do fine. Thanks!

Well, to finish off, from Alex's interview with EoN (he doesn't say where the information came from, but clearly it well positioned to receive accurate information from Government);

EoN: The first part of the question again? I've forgotten.

AH: Given the possibility of the quantity of the people involved in the trials?
EoN: Yes yes the gravity of it. Erm, it is extreemely serious in my view, erm, and I despair that, that erm, the authorities are
AH: Passing the buck?
EoN: Well, its not only passing the buck, erm, they're being dismissive of it, erm sure its a bit like a hot potato so the Home Office passes it to the ICO, the ICO passes it to SOCA and round and round the mulberry bush we go. So in that sense there is a degree of passing the buck but I think there's a more serious issue. It is that the presumption that appears to exist that, erm, despite affecting according to press reports 130,000. I've heard as many as 160,000. Not all of them will be as disgruntled as each other, but never the less a fair proportion of them will and this is potentially a criminal offence. Erm, erm, and for the authorities (whomever it may be) to treat it so dismissively, is the dismissiveness I find so objectionable.

Edit; Madslug beat me to it! :) (thanks!)

Digbert 04-08-2008 23:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by phormwatch (Post 34614700)
Do we have a definite number for the number of people affected or the number of page interceptions which occured during the 2007 covert trials? I need a counterfactual quote to:

"BT can confirm that we conducted a very small scale technical test of a prototype advertising platform on one exchange in June 2007. The test was specifically conducted to evaluate the functional and technical performance of the platform. Absolutely no personally identifiable information was processed, stored or disclosed during this trial. As with all Service Providers, it is important for BT to ensure that, before any potential new technologies are employed, they are robust and fit for purpose."
- Adam Liversage, Chief Press Officer of BT

There's always this quote from the Phorm/121Media Annual Report for 2006.

"Chief Executive Officer's Report

The Company has built on its existing PageSense platform to create a new server-based architecture called ProxySense. In Q4 of 2006, we conducted a live user trial of PageSense with a UK ISP, and we are about to start a larger trial of ProxySense with a test base of several hundred thousand users"

http://www.phorm.com/reports/Annual_Report_2006.pdf

Florence 05-08-2008 00:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wecpc (Post 34614844)
I see that the Beta.BT forum is down yet again, maybe it has got a touch of PHORMITIS.

Colin

Not down seems to have vanished.. The link in Favs that used to take me to the forums now brings up.
Quote:

Not Found
The requested object does not exist on this server. The link you followed is either outdated, inaccurate, or the server has been instructed not to let you have it.

wecpc 05-08-2008 00:41

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34614911)
Not down seems to have vanished.. The link in Favs that used to take me to the forums now brings up.

I was getting nothing at all but now that's the message I get in Firefox 3.0, but in IE7 I get a 404 error.

Colin

phormwatch 05-08-2008 00:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Bwahaha. Maybe they thought the forum was getting out of control, so they took it down.

Dephormation 05-08-2008 00:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
On a related note. The PSInet server, seemingly hosted in a block assigned to One Voice Technologies, is still alive and kicking out BT Webwise pages;

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/08/52.gif

Obviously, no one told it that BT Webwise was supposed to be hosted in the UK. Actually, supposed to be hosted inside BT rather than Gyron Internet, if truth be told.

Put the IP and hostname into your hosts file to confirm. Beware, any interaction with webwise.bt.com is not handled by BT, and if you make the above changes to your host file, the site you visit will be served from the USA (outside UK/EU data protection laws). Clear any BT.com cookies beforehand.

Whois
OrgName: Performance Systems International Inc.
OrgID: PSI
Address: 1015 31st St NW
City: Washington
StateProv: DC
PostalCode: 20007
Country: US

gnilddif 05-08-2008 01:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wecpc (Post 34614844)
I see that the Beta.BT forum is down yet again, maybe it has got a touch of PHORMITIS.

Colin

Down *again*? It's never done this before has it? It's been abnormally slow for the last few days, and it's interesting that the Mods didn't respond to a number of posts about that. But now the whole thing is dead.
gnilddif

Florence 05-08-2008 01:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
maybe the kitchen got to hot for BT to handle :) after all the truth is coming out the onger it goes on the more we seem to find out..

gnilddif 05-08-2008 02:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Florence (Post 34614937)
maybe the kitchen got to hot for BT to handle :) after all the truth is coming out the onger it goes on the more we seem to find out..

I can't believe they would sacrifice such a powerful and valuable wide-ranging customer resource as that, when they know very well that the phorm/Webwise faeces will stick on them publicly anyway. Maybe they were getting worried that increasing numbers of BT customers were getting Webwise-wise through those forums, and, faced with the Intesticular Page, if it ever appears, would have doubts and click No Thanks.
There certainly was an increasingly significant quantity of intensely anti-BT sentiment expressed on many threads in several topic areas within the forums, and maybe they thought that this was the only way to get rid of it, rather than censor it piece by piece.
Whatever the reason - a desperate effort at censorship or a massive hardware/software failure - it doesn't look good for BT, who claim that Phorm/Webwise is fit for purpose in their hands. If they can't keep the hardware/software that runs the forums running smoothly, then how can they be trusted to maintain scrupulously and securely the Phorm-provided servers and software?

gnilddif

madslug 05-08-2008 03:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Dephormation (Post 34614923)
On a related note. The PSInet server, seemingly hosted in a block assigned to One Voice Technologies, is still alive and kicking out BT Webwise pages;

When I visit the IP address, I am given a 301 redirect to the URL http://www.phorm.com/ - content length 309

The servers are giving me different times on their clocks, so my guess is that the actual site is hosted on the 2nd server, and in UK as per IP address.

www.phorm.com and webwise.bt.com are giving me clock times which suggest they are on the same server.

Rchivist 05-08-2008 08:13

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by wecpc (Post 34614844)
I see that the Beta.BT forum is down yet again, maybe it has got a touch of PHORMITIS.

Colin

The BT Beta forums have been creaking for some time, and fall over every few days now. Yesterday they were routinely taking 45-60 seconds to respond to any action by users, logged in or not logged in. I'd incline towards the cock-up rather than the conspiracy theory - although I'm sure the BT network must be getting more confusing by the day with all the fiddling they are doing putting in their spykit, and re-routing things all over the place.

They have spoken of replacing the Beta forums with the same software used on the Business platform forums - but like the Webwise trials - no clear idea when.

No customer announcements about the failed forums - as usual. There is this, although I can't see how that would affect the bt.com end of things, and anyway it's well after 4.00am
Planned Outages:
We will be carrying out planned works on the BT Yahoo! Broadband platform from 02:00 to 04:00 on Tuesday 5th August. This is to perform essential network maintenance. During this time, customers may be unable to access the Buy to Click for up to 2 hours. We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause.


Anyway - why bother telling customers? What do they matter? As long as they keep paying their direct debits, what else matters? BT stopped talking to or listening to their customers a long time ago.

rryles 05-08-2008 10:08

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by madslug (Post 34614969)
When I visit the IP address, I am given a 301 redirect to the URL http://www.phorm.com/ - content length 309

The servers are giving me different times on their clocks, so my guess is that the actual site is hosted on the 2nd server, and in UK as per IP address.

www.phorm.com and webwise.bt.com are giving me clock times which suggest they are on the same server.

If they had any clue about administering a web server* they would have them all synchronised using ntp. The error should be too small for you to detect remotely.

If the time reported by two sites is consistently a few seconds or more out you can safely assume they are separate servers. (Unless it's due to some funky proxying)

If the time reported by two sites is generally the same to within a second, it may or may not be the same server. It could be two servers both synchronised to the same ntp network or time scale.

*I know this is a big assumption.

philj 05-08-2008 10:49

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
9.48am Tuesday BT forum still out from here

Philj

going to drop a copy of the flyer off at my Doc's surgery this morning for him to look at

SelfProtection 05-08-2008 11:21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
[QUOTE=philj;34615020]9.48am Tuesday BT forum still out from here

BT Forums appear to be back up & I didn't have to wade through treacle to get there?

bluecar1 05-08-2008 12:27

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
BT are locking threads again on the forums, may be time to have a trawl through and see if they have been sanitising things and removing posts that are to near to the truth

copyright thread has been locked

peter

phormwatch 05-08-2008 13:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
That's hilarious!

Rchivist 05-08-2008 14:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bluecar1 (Post 34615066)
BT are locking threads again on the forums, may be time to have a trawl through and see if they have been sanitising things and removing posts that are to near to the truth

copyright thread has been locked

peter

They haven't locked other threads but perhaps in time...

It beggars belief that they are so paranoid that they can't allow us to discuss copyright law.

bluecar1 05-08-2008 14:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by R Jones (Post 34615120)
They haven't locked other threads but perhaps in time...

It beggars belief that they are so paranoid that they can't allow us to discuss copyright law.

seen my reply on BT?

bet i get no reply

peter

Azreal 05-08-2008 14:15

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Dont Know if this has been posted yet

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...imping_letter/

bluecar1 05-08-2008 14:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Azreal (Post 34615128)
Dont Know if this has been posted yet

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/08...imping_letter/

pity our gummy / toothless authorities / (supposed) regulators over here don't take a leaf out their stateside associates and start asking pointed questions of our ISP's and INSIST on INDEPENDANT PROOF not just nice polite boilerplate letters prepared for the ISP's by PHORM that skip over important facts and mis-represent what they are actually doing or plan to do with our private communications

peter

phormwatch 05-08-2008 14:32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I suggest that when this is over, and Phorm is a stinking pile of burning heap in the ground, we all show up at the ICO's office to demand his resignation.


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