Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

thanks saved me a bit of time that

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Matt. It looks good - does anyone know if this letter actually constitutes a DPA notice?

Rob - have you had reply from VM yet?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

For those who wish to jump ship since VM seem hell bent on self distruction I have been givien a link to half price reconnection to BT offer closes may 2008 but have to have a BT option 1, 2 or 3 for 18 months, I hasten to add this is just telephone..

http://www.serviceview.bt.com/list/p...Impl133605.htm

---------- Post added at 23:51 ---------- Previous post was at 23:47 ----------

A link to watch nice colour to graph. http://www.iii.co.uk/investment/deta...MX5550.L&it=li

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No, all Phorm is doing is datamining that data that as you note takes plenty of space into something useable and smaller.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I assume Rob would know if it constitutes one or not. [Rob?]

[And if anyone else knows if it does/doesn't, then chip in! Anything else needed for the letter? :) ]


Rob said previously (can't remember how many pages back though) that he has had a reply from VM, but is waiting on a scanner.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A couple of Quotes for customers of VM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've just thought of a massive flaw in Webwise that will render a lot of its targeted ads largely irrelevent to me. (Apologies if this has already been dicussed, but this particular penny has just dropped)

Assume that I fully embrace the concept and happily start using it, letting the system profile and pigeon-hole me to its hearts content.
Periodically, I will have a burst of activity on a particular subject, for example, I'm looking for a new car. I then start getting ads for cars etc. Great, I guess it's helping.

However, at some point my interest in this subject will stop (when I get a new car). At this point the car ads start to become an annoyance, especially if my next burst of activity is on a new TV. I'm now getting ads for cars when I want ads for TV's. The ads I'm now getting from this targetted ad system are now un-targetted.

What if the system matches me up with lots of different ad channels? They will appear to me to be random and untargetted. At this stage you have to ask, what is the point of Webwise?

Can the overworked PhormPR slave comment on how the ads are kept relevant through time and cater for changing subject focus?

Thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It interesting to read Ofcom view on thing like recoding phone calls and it not giant leap to this SPYCOMS business, if you get my way of thinking.


http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...qs/prvfaq3.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm wondering if there will be an option to switch off adverts for baby stuff in case of loss of a child as there is for junk mail?

http://www.mpsonline.org.uk/bmpsr/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interesting stuff from ORG (sourced via BBC article)
http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...he-phorm-storm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7291637.stm
"Open Rights Group questions Phorm

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/10.gif The Open Rights Group has published its concerns


Campaign body the Open Rights Group (ORG) has called for further detail on the workings of ad system Phorm

"

;)
regarding the RIPA, you would think someone in the Home Office if asked, when all this began back in january, would come to the conclusion that Targeted online advertising services should be provided with the explicit consent of ISPs' users.

OC with the Consent of the ISPs' user and web page host would make that interception clearly lawful,perhaps.

it might also be argued that consent of a web page host is satisfied in such a case because the host or publisher who makes a web page available for download from a server impliedly consents to those pages being downloaded.

however, keep in mind that 'explicit consent' ,and this is Key, IF they dont get this 'explicit consent' and the web page host were make the time to put a disclaimer on their pages forbiding interception by any such profiling elecronic device then interception is clearly unlawful.

something to consider anyway. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They store your unique identifying random number, the category (cars) and a timestamp. So over time that timestamp will decay the value of that information and replace it with you interest in consumer electronics. Though I suppose the smart data miners could start targeting car insurance ads 11 months or so after you started being flagged for cars, or extended warranties 3 years after you bought if you were searching for new cars.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/12/mobile_phom/
"
Qualcomm buys into Phorm-alike firm

Data gathering on the hoof

By Bill Ray → More by this author
Published Wednesday 12th March 2008 13:14 GMT

The ad-fatigued may groan at the news that Qualcomm has splashed out $32m on data-gathering outfit Xiam. The Irish company specialises in analysing the habits of mobile phone users in order to target advertising at them, and has customers including Orange UK.

Targeted advertising is all the rage these days, but the ways in which the necessary data is gathered is still the subject of hot debate. Xiam makes great play of its ability to profile users just by watching what they do without requiring configuration, and Orange UK apparently "supplies Xiam with data including billing information, mobile browsing logs and purchase history".

Orange assured us that the "browsing logs" only refers to on-portal usage (within Orange World), and "billing information" relates to purchases made from the operator. However, ...."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does this mean that when I roam onto the Orange UK network when I visit the UK I need to opt in or out? How does that work.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Home office guidance that overlooks the specifics of how Phorm works (TT/CPW get it 100%).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

SMHarman:

OK.

However, the way I, and I suspect many people, browse is quite quickly over a large range of topics. The ease of availability of information from different categories makes it inevitable that you're going to switch between them in pretty short order. I'd bet Kent's stock options that it could not keep up with me and deliver 'relevant' ads. I can imagine it being able to identify long term interests, but how long to I have to be searching for something frilly for the mrs before it starts serving up ads that will help me? By that time, I suspect the deal would be done and dusted without me ever clicking on a Phorm served ad.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you found it then ;)

yeah, but this is a direct answer to the interception question and the RIPA law,regarding 'Targeted online advertising services' its clear without explicit consent of both partys, its not lawful in the eyes of the home office , and i would assume the courts too.

OC we already know this to be the case, but its nice to see it confirmed by the Home Office (even if it was on the QT).

if you are a web page host, web based messageboard etc, and interested in this interception matter, its probably werth putting that interception exclusion somewere on your pages just to be safe.

after all its not much text, and it gives you some/much more legal clout .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I did :) don't ever recall seeing it linked here.

As you say; any kind of authenticated session is assumed private and yet Phorms profiler software still gets the page. I don't think the Home Office realized back in January that the cookie based opt-out means communications are still intercepted. The way I see it, Phorm must be set up like TT/CPW are planning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whats next targeted TV ads via VM cable.

How far will this all go. If they are now looking into mobile.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

yep, of course, didnt you know?, they need to pay Neils next bonus as he missed out this time around...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Cable TV ads are targetted. The audience per channel is far smaller and more demographically defined so the advertising is more targeted. Do you see many feminine hygene advertisments on "Dave", compared to "Living"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Nice analogy, but wouldn't it be more accurate if you replaced "letter" with "postcard"? And it wouldn't be the postman having a look, but the sorting office. I'm not sure that any laws would then be broken.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There's money in everything. Money is the beast!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you might think so yes, but if its true what pete says on
http://www.openrightsgroup.org/2008/...e-phorm-storm/
then perhaps not.

"Pete Says:
March 12th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Its important to note its not just your web surfing that’s vulnerable to Phorming.

Microsoft Office products, when they request content from the web, do so using the same ‘user agent’ identifier as Internet Explorer.

In non technical terms, this means Phorm can’t differentiate between web requests from Microsoft Office, Open Office, and Internet Explorer.

Consequently, if you open an email in Outlook with embedded images for example, or a Word office document with web content in, the requests that your office software sends to the web will be indistinguishable from Internet Explorer.

Assuming Internet Explorer is on Phorm’s white list, Phorm could know which email newsletters you receive, when/if/how often you read them. It could know which Word documents from which companies you had opened and read.

See;
http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...iewforum.php?6
for details.
Phorm must be stopped. Opt in isn’t even tolerable any more.
Otherwise, the only way to opt out comprehensively is to opt out of your ISP. :o(
Pete.
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hiya everybody

I posted this over at El Reg this morning, and if you missed it, thought you may like to have a read.

Thanks Col

Story of the Emperor's New Adverts

With apologies to Hans Christian Andersen

Once there lived an Advertiser who was so fond of spywear and rout kits that he spent developing them in the hope of making even more money. He did not care about security, he did not care about the people; he only liked to make money. He had an excuse and justification for the people’s fears, every hour of the day he would pronounce trust me, I am not a bad man. My past products were not spywear, and lo the BBC trusted him, and he was happy.

In the great where he traded there was always something going on; every day many strangers came there. One day two impostors arrived once went by the name Ernst & Young and the other was 20/80. They wrote reports and said “yes we trust you, you are not a seller of bad things. We absolve you, and all you do is good. The people will be happy and protected from all that is bad. They said that they knew how to manufacture a report that was so trustworthy only a fool would not believe it. And so they did, they wrote a report wit such texture that we words were spun so greatly that the government believed it. the companies believed it , and the broadcasters believed it . It was written with the most beautiful words imaginable. Not only were the words and syntax written in a most uncommonly beautiful way, but the whole report was of the quality that no advert peddler could ever imagine. The report was so fantastic that all of the bad things went away as it possessed this wonderful property called spin that had never been seen in this way before. The spin was so good that they said it will be invisible to anyone who was not fit for his office, or who was unpardonably stupid.

'Those must indeed be splendid adverts,' thought the Advertiser. 'If I had them on my web servers I could find out which men in land would help me with the spin and I could distinguish the wise from the stupid! Yes, this report must be written for me at once.' And he gave both the impostors much money, so that they might begin their work.

They placed two computers, and began to do as if they were working, but they had not the least thing on the computers, no research no law, nothing. They also demanded the finest truth and wisest words, which they put in their report, and worked at the blank computer till late into the night.

'I should like very much to know how far they have got on with the report,' thought the Advertiser. But he remembered when he thought about it that whoever was stupid or not fit for his office would not be able to the truth. Now he certainly believed that he had nothing to fear for himself, but he wanted first to send somebody else in order to see how he stood with regard to the law. Everybody in the whole town knew what a wonderful power the truth had, and they were all curious to see how bad or how stupid their neighbour was.

'I will send my old and honoured minister to the writers,' thought the Emperor. 'He can judge best what the truth is like, for he has intellect, and no one understands his office better than he.'

'Is it not a beautiful report?' asked the two impostors, and they pointed to and described the splendid truth which was not there.

'Stupid I am not!' thought the man, 'so it must be my good office for which I am not fitted. It is strange, certainly, but no one must be allowed to notice it.' And so he praised the truth which he did not see, and expressed to them his delight at the beautiful truth and wisest words with such splendid texture. 'Yes, it is quite beautiful,' he said to the advertiser.

Everybody in computer land was talking of the magnificent report, this great system, which would save them all from untargeted advertisements, all hail to the great Advertiser they sang, all hail to Phorm went up the cry from the great leader of the internet, all hail to Phorm sang BT, Virgin alike, while . Car Phone Warehouse pondered and though yet still they sang all hail to Phorm.

Now the Advertiser wanted to read it himself so he brought together a great crowd of select followers, amongst whom were both the worthy buisness who had already been there before, he went to the cunning impostors, who were now spinning and name calling with all their might, but without a shred of truth.

'Is it not splendid!' said both the old statesmen who had already been there. 'See, your adverts so targeted so fine. See the protection form the evil Phishers!' And then they pointed to the report, for they believed that the others could see the the truth just as they could see it as well.

'What!' thought the Advertiser 'I can see trouble and law, I can see RIPA and DPA! This is indeed horrible! Am I stupid? Am I not fit to be the Great advertiser? That was the most dreadful thing that could happen to me. Oh, it is very beautiful,' he said. 'It has my gracious approval.' And then he nodded pleasantly, and examined the report and believed all of the spin and guff and nodded with a happy smile.

His gathered his investors around him and they looked and looked, and read and read, and saw no more than the others; but they said like the Advertiser, 'Oh! it is beautiful!' so wonderful what can go wrong, and they invested millions. And they advised him to show the world his wonderful new adverts.

In the morning he called the PR he called the media, he called the stock market. Come Look at the great advert system I have invented, come look at the report that sings its praises, come look at me, I am not a Spywear peddler or rout kit seller, I am the Great saviour of the world, I will Protect you all from untargeted adverts .

'Spun words are so wonderful that one would imagine that not one word was the truth.
'Yes,' said all the leaders and the BBC we believe everything you tell us. , but they could see truth , for there was no truth there.

And they called a press conference so the Great Advertiser could tell the world of his new plan and the reports came, and the TV people came, and the interviewers came. And he told the world, and it was reported. The stock price went up, and money was made and the great Advertiser was happy, the inverters were happy and So the Advertiser went along in procession of media and web chats across the Internet and media he went, and to all the people on every computer, and interview he said , 'How matchless are the Advertisers great adverts! and as they listened and read they all great that the Great advertiser was truly wonderful.

No one wished it to be noticed that it was all spin, for then he would have been unfit for his office, or else very stupid. None of the spin before had met with such approval as these had.

'But he talking rubbish !' said a reporter at El Reg at last.

'Just listen to the innocent reporter!' said the a man in the comments, and each one whispered to his neighbour what the reporter had said.

'But he is all spin!' the whole of the people called out at last.

This struck the Advertiser, for it seemed to him as if they were right; but he thought to himself, 'I must go on with the spin now. And the company leader and the BBC spun some more, as they could not be seen to be fools after all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oooh this could prove interesting

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rm_av_vendors/

Top security firm: Phorm is adware
Home Office advice suggests RIPA worries for webmasters

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats still pretty general though its still not personal advert profiling. What I think we might see targeting adverts in the interactive, VOD side by linked by your viewing habits of that box. Watch alot sport get sports adverts etc.

They could even link the broadband personal profiler and use it during VOD/interactive. Although that would be crazy but when was this idea had any logic.

We likely to be pounded if more and one user uses the pc with others adverts. IT according to phorm is our fault not having multi accounts.

So I think they could combine if they do move into TV too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Not really
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmi...ntrol_Protocol
TCP, the main transmission protocol we are talking about here to use the wiki words
So a TCP packet contains an envelope or header which everyone needs to read, and a private body (though the privacy is about as strong as a paper envelope). Thus at the moment the header should be the only part that is read (it is all the router needs to read), but now the body will be looked at too.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Your analogy does not hold water IMO. A postcard is in open sight for anybody who handles or sees it to read. The writer of a postcard knows that obvious fact when they choose that method of communication and by choice opts for zero privacy. Anybody who seals communication within an envelope or packet has the expectancy, under law, that any unlawful or unjustified breach of privacy will be punished under the various laws covering snooping.

The question remaining is whether you wish your on-line activities to be considered to be as a postcard or private closed packets. If its in plain view (postcard) then if the range of the proposed imposition of spying had better stay within the realms of ad serving. If it is ever expanded as an online crime fighting tool then we had all better hope that the fuss and furore over modem cloning is rubbish and that we all make sure that our wireless connections (routers) are never compromised (thousands are already). I would never mind being held answerable for my own activity but no way would want to be held responsible for something I knew nothing about let alone the source.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

a question, do you trust charles to report this fairly, he does seem very pro Phorm?, but then the Guardian is signed up to the service....
http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...s_consent.html
"
Home Office on Phorm: it's legal if users consent

An analysis by the Home Office of Phorm's proposed system suggests that it's legal - as long as users give their consent
March 12, 2008 3:00 PM

...
You can find an archive of the discussion on Cryptome, but as it went out on the ukcrypto mailing list (if I'm reading the headers right), it's hardly secret.
The conclusion:
"

notice no mention of word 'explicit' from the
"20. Targeted online advertising services should be provided with the
explicit consent of ISPs' users ...."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

From the article above
So, VM may be changing their stance.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This development has the potential of serious credibility implications for Phorm and any ISP implementing their processes.

What goes around comes around and Kent may have to face the people who give more than a passing thought to his past.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You are not thinking of the truly big picture, once you have quad play with VM they know your browsing habits, viewing habits, home and mobile phone calling habits and can target even more effectively. With VOD style viewing they will be able to inject the right adverts into those 30 second blocks for the right viewer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"Targeted online advertising services should be provided with the explicit consent of ISPs' users or by the acceptance of the ISP terms and conditions."

So in other words the ISP's will just change their T & C's and if you don't accept them all you can do is leave.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh i bloody well hope so. I would hate to see VirginMedia self destruct

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's one interpretation. Another is that it would be unlawful interception if an ISP were to pass data from an opt-out subscriber to Phorm's profiler.

Sure,

• illegal wiretapping
• unlawful interception of communications

Surely RIPA was no more intended to permit that than to restrict "legitimate business activity"?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well seems the other side are now starting to let people know who will not be sharing a bed with Phorm.. http://www.antiphormleague.com/isp.php

For me I have lost my trust in VM knowing how they also change T&C without informing us I can see me taking BT up on the offer of BT line with half price line fitting for an 18month contract then off to Aquiss. MD of Aquiss has replied to every email I have sent him.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7291637.stm

Now that's more like, BBC !

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not that much space, government, university and private companies networks do this as a matter of fact. Space is cheap why install gigs when you can get terrabytes relatively cheap for a SAN.

I only use about a gig a week at most, usually far less about 30 meg a day in logs at home monitoring everything, which if I wanted to could be backed up to dvd.
And its not that hard to datamine a sniffer, especially if you have one which already gives a graphical display. You dont need phorm for that and as I said Virgin already do this sort of stuff without phorm and for emails its a legal requirement by HM Gov to store them and has been since at least 2000.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The point is I have a contract with Virgin Media. I do not have have a contract with Phorm, nor do I want one. That being the case, I should not have to accept that they will profile everything that I do online if I explicitly forbid them from doing so. Furthermore, I don't trust Phorm not to use my data if I opt-out and I have no way of verifying that they are not.
What Phorm intend to do is far more intrusive than what companies like Google currently do for two reasons: (1) It's being done at the network level so is much more difficult to circumvent, and (2) It is applied indiscriminately to everything I look at so I can't avoid it by steering clear of specific sites.
Add to that the fact that the government must go through due legal process before they can access my data (something I don't have a problem with, by the way) and also the fact that (even now) I trust Virgin Media much more than I trust Phorm, and morally, at least, this scheme doesn't have a leg to stand on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmmm,"Phorm would have done much better to wait until the service was fully baked" as in fully kitted out and gone operational, dont think so somehow.
http://blogs.msdn.com/adplate/archiv...-function.aspx
"
Phorm over function

Published 12 March 08 08:05 PM | ianth
"There's been plenty of buzz (more of the angry hornet variety rather than the just-inhaled-a-lungful-of-dope variety) about Phorm of late, precipitated by a press release that the company put out on Feb 14 in the UK..."

"Critics of the system (led by noted UK cage-rattler, The Register) claim that the technology is little more than spyware by another name.
...."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm not advocating Phorm as I disagree with it, its just stupid comments like virgin can see what I do.

They dont need phorm to do this and even telewest had the ability to this, infact doesnt matter who you use as an isp, if they so choose to investigate they can get your broswing habits, its how peeds are caught bang to rights.

Yes you haven't signed up to phorm and virgin should make it opt in not opt out. Or better still forget about the whole thing as a PR disater waiting to happen the day it goes live.

Is the revenue from Phorm worth the lost revenue in bad PR. I bet someone in Virgin is busy with an abacus at this very moment ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

1 question I would like a definate answer to:
Would they be implementing this rubbish on the business broadband package or just the residential broadband?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Last yhear a business on Bt was caught up in an earlier version of this that BT trialed without letting ppl know, it has been mentioned in the thread pages back. http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...a_summer_2007/

Countdown to BT line starts

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Even if we chose to opt out... how can we know for sure that our information isn't being sent anyway? We will only ever know what VM tell us...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Paedophiles get caught by either taking their PC in for repair or buying Child Porn. I dont think they get caught by their browsing habbits.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=shawty;34505919]Paedophiles get caught by either taking their PC in for repair or buying Child Porn. I dont think they get caught by their browsing habbits.[/QUOTE

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/06...edophile_ring/

i think this gang was tracked

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry Morden, I think I might have misunderstood your original post :o:
I'm sure someone at Virgin is running the numbers as we type, but I'm not at all confident they'll come up with the right answer!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=piggy;34505963]The difference being that the Police need little things like warrants to track people. Phorm do not have a warrant. It's not clear whether they even have the legal right.

Also, they are not tracking just a small group of people who they are reasonably suspicious have done wrong. They are tracking millions of people. the bulk of whom are innocent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi all
PhormUKPRteam here again - further to recent speculation on the coverage of Phorm patents: a patent is not a blueprint. The Phorm Webwise system has been designed from the ground with privacy at its heart. Patents are designed to help inventors protect their ideas. They do this by describing every different approach that could be taken so as to give the inventor the broadest definition of the idea and improve the chances of preventing anyone else from copying it. The systems we roll out will have much more focussed functionality than that described in the patents. And it will preserve the highest standards of online privacy

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormPR bod:

You're really swimming against the tide with this.
Most people are concerned by the patent contents as it highlights what is possible under the system that is being implanted into ISP networks. Once the foot is through the door, there's no accountability as to how it will be changed in the future. A change to T&C's here, an upgrade there, and before you know it we may as well all parade around naked with our personal details tattoo'd on our chests.

"Assurances" mean very little where this subject is concerned.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The purpose of a patent is to reserve the right to do a certain thing in a certain way, and to prevent others from doing the same, so whether you like to admit it or not, in filing this patent you are reserving the right to potentially collect data on us in the future through wider means that you have so far announced (e.g. monitoring of data on ports other than port 80), and to diversify the ways in which you currently plan to target advertisements at us (e.g. interstitial pages - aka- inserting extra full page advertisments between the pages that we have actually requested through our ISP). Even if this is not your intention right now, things change, so you'll forgive us for not believing everything you tell us, since we've been given no choice about the installation of your hardware in our ISP so far. I'm sure you understand that the best hope for those of us who are fundamentally opposed to your plans is to prevent this system ever getting off the ground. Once it's running, it'll be much harder for us to get it shut down, and it'll be much easier for you to implement incremental changes to the software that will further erode our privacy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Dav / Lucevans

We agree - users have a hard time trusting organisations with personal data. But there is zero chance that we could use or release a user's personal data, because we store zero personal data. While there is some skepticism on the forums, that's mainly because people are still in the mind-set that you can only target ads with personal data just as everyday ad cookies do. We've broken the link between targeting and personal information so we're quite pleased to see people debating online privacy. In addition, as previously stated there is the E&Y oversight and that of the ISPs themselves - accountability and transparency are critical to Webwise and how it works.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for the reply, but you really do have the wrong end of the stick.

I, for one, think I understand the system quite well. It may come as a shock, but I have nothing against Webwise as a system for people who want to use it via an explicit opt-in which routes their traffic through the webwise system, leaving all other traffic untouched in any way. It is their browsing data that only they can choose to send to you.

The issue here is that Webwise can have access to all personal data (IP addresses, names, postal details etc), before it even reaches the extraction part and "anonymiser". THAT is what I have a huge, angry reaction to.

This is clearly stated in the patent and I firmly believe that the human condition means that if something can be done, it will be done, irrespective of whether it should or shouldn't be done. The Manhattan Project started after a bunch of nuclear physicists postulated that it would be possible to start a nuclear fission reaction and get huge returns in the form of released energy. They were elated when their tests proved successful. The inhabitants of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, less so. The point is, once the genie is out of the bottle...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You may not store directly linked information, but your systems do process a lot of personal data and it's entirely possible that the system will be (as happened at AOL) hacked, and that link will be made, and the data exploited by scammers. The systems placed in each ISPs network would become a target for hackers.

As for the "benefits" to the consumer. I do not consider advertising (whether targetted or not) to be a benefit. I personally have no problem with advertising (I moderate this site, which is funded by ads, so for me to have a problem with advertising would be hypocritical) but, I can honestly say that I ignore web based adverts, so targetted ads would provide no benefit.

Also, I personally would not benefit from the webwise protection. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself from scams (on and off line), and find the combination of my own intelligence, the anti spyware/virus software on my PC and my browser's own anti phising systems to be more than adequate. I've been browsing since 1994, and do you know how many times I have been caught out? Twice.

The main problem I have with the system is simple. So far three ISPs have been announced as having signed up. Not one of them (AFAIK) has actually asked their users if they want this system. I realise that CPW have said they'll look at ways of routing the data around Phorm's systems if customers opt out, and Virgin appear to be considering their position, but, they've only done this in response to the fuss caused by forums (such as this one) and the media.

Even where they have talked about the system, they've played up the percieved benefits of the webwise system without actually mentioning that the system watches what people are looking at.

---------- Post added at 11:30 ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 ----------

Reading through the patent, it would seem that the system has access to a lot more personal data than it needs to target ads.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

[QUOTE=Stuart C;34506053]You may not store directly linked information, but your systems do process a lot of personal data and it's entirely possible that the system will be (as happened at AOL) hacked, and that link will be made, and the data exploited by scammers. The systems placed in each ISPs network would become a target for hackers.

As for the "benefits" to the consumer. I do not consider advertising (whether targetted or not) to be a benefit. I personally have no problem with advertising (I moderate this site, which is funded by ads, so for me to have a problem with advertising would be hypocritical) but, I can honestly say that I ignore web based adverts, so targetted ads would provide no benefit.

Also, I personally would not benefit from the webwise protection. I am perfectly capable of protecting myself from scams (on and off line), and find the combination of my own intelligence, the anti spyware/virus software on my PC and my browser's own anti phising systems to be more than adequate. I've been browsing since 1994, and do you know how many times I have been caught out? Twice.

The main problem I have with the system is simple. So far three ISPs have been announced as having signed up. Not one of them (AFAIK) has actually asked their users if they want this system. I realise that CPW have said they'll look at ways of routing the data around Phorm's systems if customers opt out, and Virgin appear to be considering their position, but, they've only done this in response to the fuss caused by forums (such as this one) and the media.

Even where they have talked about the system, they've played up the percieved benefits of the webwise system without actually mentioning that the system watches what people are looking at.

[QUOTE]


Webwise doesn't have personal data or clickstream history stored in the same way as Google or AOL, so accidental or malicious disclosure is impossible.

Nobody wants to be bombarded with ads when they are online. In fact if you want to reduce the amount of advertising you see, Webwise is probably the best thing to come along. The reason is simple: you get bombarded with ads because advertisers today have no idea of the interests of the people to whom they are advertising. So the only way they can get any campaign to work is to throw hundreds of ads at you to see what sticks. It is a terrible system. It wastes your time and attention and wastes their money, whilst generating minimal revenue for only a few websites. If advertisers were aware of the product categories which interested viewers, the net result would be far less advertising.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

its interesting when you say "We've broken the link between targeting and personal information" thats what your pay masters are telling your PR firm i take it !

this post by an AC
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...rket/comments/
is also interesting, infact it shows you/they have not infact broken the link at all should they chose to use this simple tieing capability.

"
How is it anonymous exactly.

By Anonymous Coward
Posted Wednesday 12th March 2008 02:37 GMT
firstly even if we opt out (As BT customers) the profiler still sees all our traffic. if we are opted out, we have to have a cookie set to say that. this cookie will be set to .webwise.net which is owned by phorm
(http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=out).
if you are opted in then the cookie you get is
(http://a.webwise.net/services/OO?op=in) of course.

so if a person opts in..then BT webwise equipment at BT premisess owned by Phorm (assuming they are ONLY doing what they say they are doing) have your UID + browsing history "digest" and not your IP address.

when you visit in "infected" page, then the webserver will have a advert served by webwise.net..so your opt in cookie (which has the UID in it of course) is sent from YOUR machine right to webwise..and of course, you cant help but send your IP address with the TCP data now can you..so how is it that Phorm cannot use the data from BT WEBWISE plus the data from its WEBSITE PARTNERs (by way of html included advert tags) to correlate IP address to UID then?!?

example opt out cookie
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2008 01:31:19 GMT
Server: Apache
Set-Cookie: OPTED_OUT=YES; expires=Fri, 12-Mar-2010 02:33:02 GMT; domain=.webwise.net; path=/
P3P: CP="NOI DSP LAW CURa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa OUR STP BUS UNI COM NAV INT"
Content-Length: 0
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/plain
example opt in cookie
HTTP/1.1 200 OK
Date: Wed, 11 Mar 2008 01:31:19 GMT
Server: Apache
Set-Cookie: uid=9sRe3AeRcDDwA2ASDYXXLg||; expires=Thu, 12-Mar-2009 02:33:39 GMT; path=/services/
P3P: CP="NOI DSP LAW CURa DEVa TAIa PSAa PSDa OUR STP BUS UNI COM NAV INT"
Content-Length: 0
Connection: close
Content-Type: text/plain
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Glad to see this forum has turned to some intelligent debate and well done to Phorm for taking the time to join. I have read a lot of posts wanting to 'shut this down before it ever takes off'. What about the people who see Phorm as providing something of value? At this early stage you only hear the voices of opposition.
Providing Phorm adheres to it's policy of privacy and is regulated, where is the problem? If you don't want it then SWITCH IT OFF!!!!!!!
It's a clear choice.
Personally speaking, I have no problem with Phorm as long as they respect users privacy which from what I can gather, has been one of their primary goals from the beginning.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Google, AFAIK, does not store profile info on you UNLESS YOU SIGN IN TO ONE OF THEIR SERVICES. This is one important difference.

Even if you do, you can block the cookie they use (as you can with Phorm). One major difference is that Google don't install hardware at your ISP, so even if they wanted to, they cannot store profile data on you if you block their cookie. If Phorm wish to, this hardware (at least as described in the patent) would allow them to store info regardless of the user's preference, and the user would have no assurance (beyond not being served ads and Phorm's own assurances) that their data is not being stored. With Google, it *is* physically impossible for them to store profile info on you if you block their cookies. With Phorm, it is not. This is another important difference.

In fact, I am tempted to go so far as to say that if you aren't storing this info, you would not need hardware installed at the ISP. Google manages it using a combination of Javascript, cookies and the servers at their various data centres.




You haven't read my post. It does not waste my time, as I ignore them. And if you believe that greater takeup of products as a result of advertising will reduce the amount of advertising, you clearly have never dealt with advertisers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hi phorm PR people.

Ok bottom line, whi I do not trust what you are saying and never will trust what your are saying, and no amount of posting will change that.


Phorm's boss had a previous history it created RootKits and spread spywear. And you want us to be trusting now!!!!!


remember the 121 media RootKit?

So now you say "Trust us, we are good we will protect you" yeh Right

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have you read the thread (or even my post above)? Even if we do switch the system off, we have no guarantee that Phorm won't still store our data. If I trusted the company, I wouldn't consider that a problem. However, bear in mind the history of some of the people involved.

:welcome: to the forum though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:welcome: tpc

and why is it that we dont see the non apposeing end users/partys giving this thread their thoughts that its legal,proper, just plain right to collect,process or store a persons data stream, then profit from this persons data stream without paying the user for its use with a legal contract.

surely by definition, a persons data stream is their personal property to sell or not as the case may be.

how is collecting, processing or copying a persons property and selling that to 3rd partys for profit ,considered anything but comercial piracy?

you ,as an average person (we assume) say "It's a clear choice", but do YOU really understand and accept all (many,any of) the implications this 'interception for sale' means, do all/many of the others also understand?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormUKPRteam,

Unfortunately yet again you are outlining what just one component of an integrated system cannot do perhaps in the hopes that we may be steered away from the objective of our concerns.

Webwise may indeed be totally benign but it is the packet scanner which profiles users that is the object of concern. If you persist in focusing purely on one component part and avoid discussion on other parts which are of greater concern then you are not really doing justice to yourself, your employer or your audience. It could easily be argued that by avoiding the central issue more harm is done than good.

I do not want my on-line activities scanned for profit. I do not wish to be profiled for profit. I can and will implement blocking of almost all types of advertising. If enough people employ ad blockers on a permanent basis the proposed win\win moves towards lose\lose for everybody.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

so true there is worry how far they want to take it.

maybe in the future we will have hidden chips in our glasses which turns all adverts on billboards to personal data targeting.

Anybody getting a sort of The NET film feel to phorm. Next we will have all our identies taken.

Someone actually missed a massive issue to what phorm doing.

What do most sites do to try help protect your identity.

Thats it use a personal question PHORM will know everything about you in probable 1 year and could easily guestimate or even start to know these personal questions.

So now hackers and phorm will be able to get your password logins and even know the personal question to gain access.

I bet as soon as phorm goes live security breaches will increase big time.


ps anybody who has downloaded Dephormation firefox addon there is new update.

http://www.dephormation.org.uk/

---------- Post added at 13:53 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

another thought what happens if we do get a true opt-out.

But a business who has a website with BT ISP signs up to phorm and we visit that website.

As an opt out surely we should not get phormed but that business wants us monitored so they can target me with phorm.

We got to remember the net brings cross platform ISP together and does this mean opt out would only be for websites under VM ISP and not others.

It also is a consideration for those who plan to goto ISP who dont want phorm.

As many websites will be in in the phorm you still might actually be profiled despite being opt out or non paticapating ISP the way I see it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This is where both Phorm and their ISP partner's should be selling this product to US, the ISP customers, telling us why we should use their product and how 'it' will benefit us. And then leaving the final decision up to US whether or not use their product.

A number of interviews with Phorm have stated they have had customer feedback wanting this system. As yet, I have not seen any user of this thread saying, 'Yes, Phorm and my ISP have asked my opinion about webwise'. Our ISP's should have at least emailed or have a section on their website telling us about this new and exciting feature that will benefit us.

If Phorm have done a great job of selling the product to us, then we would love to opt-in....and that’s how it should have been....each user should opt-in if they *want* this service and not be opted in automatically.

If the user decides to opt-out, then it should mean that and nothing else. No traffic being routed to the profiler but then ignored.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ah yes.. the ol' party line.. AOL and google = evil, hundreds/thousands of ads, see what sticks.. getting a mite boring reading that phrase everywhere you look..

fact this PR droid seems to be missing, suprising since enough people have been saying it, is that with google and aol we can vote with our feet and not use them if we wish. having their spyware foisted onto us at the isp where we can do nothing about it (unless anyone fancies storming VM or BT data centres??), and even with the opt-out cookie (an idea up there with Einstein, no, really) no-one is convinced that some form of snoopage isn't going to occur, in fact phorm have told us that our data will be hi-jacked but not read. they have also said that there may be other services (i use the word loosely) heaped upon us.

as has been said before. i use firefox, no script, ad blocker, phishing filters and have trained my brain to ignore adverts already so this will mean nothing to me.. apart from my data will be mirrored to a 3rd party server even if i opt out which, even if i get a gold plated certificate with guarantees up the waazoo, i'm not too chuffed with. and no matter what you say this is spyware, something i take great pains to avoid like a plague

trouble is with cable broadband you don't really have an alternative.. i, as a land line bb customer (i know, ****, shouldn't be on the board, yada yada) i will also be voting with my feet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, I read the EY report properly this morning. Some thoughts...

• it is performed by EY, LLP 5 Times Sq, in NY, not EY, LLP the UK entity, why? Both have sufficient expertise
• it is performed to AICPA standards, not ICAEW standards
• it is addressed to Phorm inc, 264 W 40th NY, NY. Not Phorm plc 222 Regent St.
• the process as described talks about opt out mechanisms. If this becomes an opt in process as TT are discussing then one of the key aspects has significantly changed (for the better IMHO) but how does that change the security process as auditited.
• the wording of the management control descriptions is interesting. Phorms systems do not use or store. Rather than phorms systems cannot use and store.
• it goes on to say this specific data cannot be accessed by our ISP partners. So our ISP partners are allowing hardware to be injected into their networks on their premises that scans data packets and they cannot see what this hardware is doing!
• Page 4 we have created a privacy policy - well it is easy to create a policy, less easy to stick to it.
• Page 6 Para 6 is it not an inconsistency that the doc says 'for example phorm may tell a merchant that our network contains 50,000 users who have visited a travel website URL in the past six months, but cannot disclose which randomly generated IDs have visited that URL because the information is not stored' yet they say on Page 5 Para 3 (end of) Phorm Service will retain only information about general categories of interest associated with an ID such as IDnnn is interested in travel [to paraphrase]'
• Again Page 5 Para 5 the bullet points Phorm does not collect, not cannot collect or will not collect.
• Page 7 Para 2 For a US report issued by a US firm to a US recipent why is the data protection officer located in the UK?
• Page 7 Para 7 nice clause about export of data to other countries there. 'if you use your computer and usual browser in a country other than your home country to log on to the internet via one of our partner ISPs in that other country, the data Phorm holds in its systems that is associated with that cookie may be automatically transferred to Phorm's systems in that other country.'
• Pages 8 - 13 is a nice piece of padding, basically the AICPA template for creation of a privacy policy. So if you get the Phorm privacy policy it should map nicely to this template.

Page 7 Para 7 nice clause about export of data to other countries there. 'if you use your computer and usual browser in a country other than your home country to log on to the internet via one of our partner ISPs in that other country, the data Phorm holds in its systems that is associated with that cookie may be automatically transferred to Phorm's systems in that other country.'
Gives another scenareo, you take your laptop usually connected to TTs firewalled implementation of Phorm around to your mates for some gaming or whatever and log on to his internet connection which is with VM, now your cookie from Phorm and your data will pass to the phorm harvester. Great.

I don't know where I read it, but someone wrote a great thing about giving data and the benefits of giving. Well I don't need anti-phishing I use IE7 and that has it built in and enabled by default, though the install clearly asks if you want to switch it off as you will be passing data to Microsoft.

I don't mind giving google my data as they give me fantastic search results in return. If they were mediocre results like MS Live then I woudl not be using them. There is a reason Google is the No.1 search engine.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormPRUK said: NO.NO.NO. Have you never heard of a little Firefox plug-in called adblock plus????? That reduces the online adverts I see to ZERO, nada, no adverts!! Can Phorm do that? NO. So Phorm IS NOT probably the best thing to come along.

Don't you Phorm people understand - I don't want adverts - \I don't care if they are targeted or not, the fact is I DON'T WANT THEM, I don't want my browsing intercepted, I don't want Phorm.

Do you not understand that? What I want to do is opt out of the phorm system. In other words, I don't want any Phorm software touching, intercepting or cataloguing either my data or that of my website. I don't want my data being routed to any sort of profiling system. I don't care if you don't collect any data or not, I don't want my traffic intercepted. Is that clear enough?

It's really quite simple, and I am amazed that these Phorm PR people don't understand this.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the US 'green eggs and ham' just poped in the old noggin there, shame its not going to turn out like that story though for Phorm or the ISPs.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

If the private body is exposed, is it against the law to view it?

Surely a "sealed communication" would be data sent over https, or otherwise encrypted.

If I carry out a conversation in public, I shouldn't be surprised if people overhear what I'm saying.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hmm , iv never given it any real thought,i dont really know....

but id think that your average unicast http client to server, is a point to point connection, and so a personal connection...,NOT a public one.

your average https might be considered like using a 'personal messenger' service, and so a more secure client/server pipe.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Now that you mention it, webservers all over the world have access to your IP address. What is to stop a server that hosts a forum from selling IP addresses to an advertiser?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormUKPRteam

I am sure I have read somewhere that contrary to what you have said, Phorm WILL store data for up to 14 days for research and monitoring purposes. Despite trying unfortunately I can no longer find that information. Just to clarify matters can you give a cast-iron guarantee that NONE of our data pertaining to our surfing habits will be stored?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

some do.. on a regular basis.. along with your email address...

but you can avoid them...

can't with this wheeze...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So how do you know who they are, until its too late?

And how do you know when a website changes its mind and starts selling the information?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

apart from the obvious you have the choice not to go there,and so not be collected...

now that the EU commissioner has stated your IP is personal data , that would be one reason inside the EU at least.

i dont know if the so called 'safe harbor' agreement with the US regarding data might also be in effect!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

If you want to compare these to a postal system your conversation in public is a postcard, your letter is a private communication and a sealed communication would be a tamperproof letter sent by bonded courier.
It is my understanding that deep packet inspection of data should not routinely occur on the internet in the UK just as routine inspection of letters or routine bugging of telephone calls does not occur.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you don't.. obviously.

not the same thing though is it?

one is like someone giving someone else your address and phone number after a conversation with you.. you'd just avoid talking to them again if possible

the other is like your telephone company recording everything you say playing it to someone else to see if they're interested in anything on the tape and then giving them your address and phone number

one's bad manners.. the other's illegal

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PhormUKPRteam

I will make it as simple as possable.

I will not accept your system if my data touches any piece of equipment that has been installed anywhere in the VM network or yours. I do not agree with a opt out i only agree with a OPT in. I repeat i will not except my data going anywhere near you and your spyware. If it does then i will dump ALL my services with VM. That's a lot of money they will lose.





BTW


Have a nice day :)



.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Every website you visit has information eg your IP and that is available to the webmaster or anyone entrusted to access the information. For most people that information is irrelevant as the ISP is the privacy guardian between a fairly meaningless number and a name and address.

If you give additional information in conducting business with a website then if it's commercial there is trust which if breached not only becomes a violation of the data protection act but is likely to see that commercial enterprise heading for a bankruptcy court.

If the site is a leisure or interest site such as this one then the trust for the information given is placed in the hands of the owner\s and any that have the rights to look. Of course sites such as these have a responsibility not to allow that information to leak out and as such you can reasonably expect that anonymous "TheNorm" will be all anybody would ever know about you. The choice is available for everybody to use aliases or if you wished you could use your full name, address, e-mail address and telephone number. I would definitely not advise that you do.

Privacy from those that wish to peddle you something is something that I wish to retain. I had to use full names in forums I frequented back in the 90's and eventually dumped that ISP when spam filters failed through log sizes. Tens of thousands of mail spam mail address's were harvested by the easy link with names & ISP. I was inundated for years with spam.

IMO if something on the web can be exploited for gain it will be. If people can be naively duped they will be and I put my trust in those who by my payment have a duty of care. That trust is currently being tested.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

hence all the 'in good faith' legal clauses you see in any T&C.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am not sure that I would class what the 3 ISPs are intending on doing as 'in good faith' i.e. are doing this honestly and without ulterior motive?

http://www.davenportlyons.co.uk/html...ert.php?id=521

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hows this for an answer about data retention from BT

So for 6 months they will have a record of what i did

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Poor analogy - Firstly, people might overhear a conversation, but its meaningless to the listener - if they start talking about random events, such as 'My Paul went to Tesco today' or 'Did you watch Eastenders lastnight? Shocking wasn't it?'

The listener wouldn't be able to pick up anything from this conversation that was remotely interesting or relevant to gather up any kind of significant profile and this is the difference between a real life conversation and the internet, where data is tracked to serve relevant ads.

Secondly, if I was going to have a conversation where I thought it was a private and a sensitive one - I wouldn't be talking in public now would I?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I've seen couples in airports saying to each other "now where do we get a taxi" only to have some guy come up to them, presumably an unlicensed cab driver.

Exactly my point. If you considered your data to be sensitive, you would use https (or another form of encryption). By not doing so, isn't the implication the data aren't private? I agree, eavesdropping is impolite - but is it illegal?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I wouldn't be suprised if it was in some countries, as it is illegal to worry a Squirrel in some parts of the world but in both cases, irrelevant to the issue about internet data being tracked and so relevant ads can be served from this data.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

EY Report Page 2 Point II
Phorm has established industry-leading standards regarding storage, retention and deletion of data.
Blah Blah however,

• This specific data cannot be accessed by our ISP partners.
• Even this non-personally -identifiable information is automatically purged from the production system immediately (research and debug logs may be kept on a separate system for a maximum of 14 days).
• Once the system purges this data, it is not possible for us to release it, either accidentally or deliverately.

Blah, Blah
Sincerely

Kent Ertugrul
CEO
Phorm, Inc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Yes. The Home Office advice mentioned a few pages back in the thread makes it very clear that intercepting these communications is illegal under the RIPA without explicit consent, unless the interception is essential to provide the contracted service. Having targeted adverts or some pathetic "anti-phishing" fig leaf is in no way essential to the service any of us pay our money for, which is for the ISP to transfer our communications to the recipient and theirs to us. Reading any more of the communication than is necessary to get it there is illegal, unless they have the explicit consent of BOTH parties, i.e. you _and_ the website.

The Home Office advice suggests that the website is giving implied consent to the interception simply by being a publicly-available website, but I can't see that standing up to a decent lawyer if they're profiling e.g. password-protected, but not https websites, which are reasonably common.

They also say that the users' consent can be contained within the Ts & Cs, but this would require us to give that consent as the interception would involve a massive change to the Ts & Cs given the privacy statements some people listed earlier.

You appear to be suggesting that if the Post Office were to open our letters, read them and sell the contents to a commercial mailing company, then that would be okay because we didn't bother to encrypt what we were writing about with a replica Enigma machine, or that it would be okay for BT to listen in to what we were saying on the phone because we hadn't made it private by using some kind of voice scrambling technology. Just because the message is plaintext doesn't mean we don't have the right to expect it to remain private from those we have contracted to get it from us to the recipient.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It does not state how they caught the original person and they caught the rest by posing as the original person and not by their browsing habbits.

Anyway, this is getting off topic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They can also scan the pc for images even if the disk has been wiped, there are some clever recovery tools out there for professional users. Limited userbase, but almost custom made to allow data to be recovered, even from broken drives.

But if the police have a suspicion they can request the logs from the ISP and even take away a server should they wish. I have personally seen a server go walkies with the police with the correct warrant. Not for a paed case though.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I understand that but the point was that Ive never seen or heard a case of a paedophile been caught due to their browsing habbits (going and searching for the actual porn), its always something else thats got them caught, like taking a PC in for repair or trying to meet up with underage people.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

And it's rude, intrusive and (all too frequently) dangerous for the passengers!

When did Phorm (or VM, for that matter) obtain a license (my consent) to flog my data?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just done a quick check on www.webwise.net, a.webwise.net and www.oix.com

admittedly these aren't confirmed as the domains that the opt-in/out cookie will be tied to, but bear with me

these 2 domains are not in BT's or VM's net block (it's fasthosts if you care)...

which means that if you visit any site (the guardian for instance) that is in oix, then the cookie will be read from somewhere outside BT or VM.. which is in direct contradiction to what we've been spun.. i.e. no data will go outside the ISP..

the cookie can be read by one of these sites then who knows.. your unique oix id and browsing habits, can now be strung together with your ip address and anything else your browser wants to give up..

edit : sorry for mentioning BT but i don't think this is a purely cable problem

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

What data? Going by what VM and Phorm say, no data bearing anything that goes back to you is used. Any other data is surely owned by the website you are visiting.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Postcards, not letters; see posts 1122, 1128 & 1129

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

to be honest they've said so many contradictory things i wouldn't believe them if they said 1+1=2

and i don't think this is about selling YOUR data.. it's about ISPs jumping into bed with a know spyware pusher and expecting us to bend over and take it.. we're already the most spied upon people in the world in this country if you're happy with that then fine.. but most people don't seem to be

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I emailed Virgin to opt out of this phorm deal,the very nice guy I spoke too said he would get back to me which he did...he didn't seem to know much about the deal but did say that Virgin are testing the water to see how it would go down with it's customers.
He also offered me the name and phone number so I could speak to someone from Phorm which I declined and pointed out to him that my Isp is Virgin and they alone are responsible for this deal, If I was targetted in any way with ads I would leave Virgin.
So if you haven't complained to Virgin yet do so and also get anyone else you know on Virgin cable to complain as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Or using chat rooms for which server logs are kept of.

And the last lot of arrests were done via a chat room sting.

No one is anonymous on the web they only think they are. There are footprints everywhere which can be tracked. Yes some are arrested by the way that you say and others are arested by other methods.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/3789279.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats still not what Im talking about. Im talking about actual looking at 'free' child porn images. I have not heard of any case were a paedophile was caught due to him searching maybe 'child porn' into google and finding images of child porn (you get my drift) and then that person going on to find more.

The only arrests Ive heard off are like you say, where a person goes looking for it and talking about it in chatrooms were it can easily be reported, trying to meet up with underage people, buying it via credit card or taking their PC in for repair.

I maybe wrong, but Ive not heard of such a case.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

My browsing data: what I'm looking at, where I'm looking at it, the time of day -- that's just for now.

And going by the patent (have a look at [0042]?), they can mine lots more.
Why should I believe either of them when they say they won't use anything identifiable?
VM have lost my trust and Phorm never had it.

Are you sure this won't be the 'thin end of the wedge' of ISPs capturing and profiting from our internet use?