Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
Are there any plans for more than 2 upstream channels to be bonded? Reason I ask is that I've noticed there are 4 upstream channels available in this area, although only 2x16QAM being bonded at any given time. These being:
25.8 MHz 32.6 MHz 39.4 MHz 46.2 MHz I'm guessing that it's not going to be needed until upload speeds go higher? Although I think I remember 3 upstream channels being bonded when the WiFi sharing was originally released. Is that happening with the re-release of the WiFi sharing? |
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With how bad Virgins upload speeds are I doubt they have any need.
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About 18 months ago, some people did get a 3rd channel bonded (And possibly a few with 4?), around the time of the "first" Wi-fi rollout before they packed it in. However, it reverted back to just 2 when the rollout was cancelled.
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Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
there were two things going on at the time. They were rolling out a third channel for the public wifi sharing and at the same time there were working on the modulation to try and squeeze more bandwidth out of each channel as they were also in the process of rolling out some new tiers with higher upstream speeds. Although we all went back down to 2 channels afaik everyone should have been on QAM64 (and nit 16) shortly afterwards (which makes it a long time ago).
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Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
As in you can get 250 with 30 in America and I know in some other country's the upload is far higher for what you get is my point.
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I got some weird modulation for my upstream channels.
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Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
They should both be 64QAM, 32QAM is a fallback. The system will try to get the best modulation it can but if it encounters noise, it drops back - more reliable, but less bandwidth.
64QAM > 32QAM > 16QAM -> QPSK I imagine if you reboot, it'll probably fix itself - but if you're not getting any errors, don't fret over it. |
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I thought everyone had been on qam64 for a long time. For a while i was on one qam64 and one qam16 but like i said, i am sure both of mine have been 64 for the best part of a year. You wouldnt think so when i post screen dumps to help people out because i repost ones i made about 3 years ago which is why i did anew one for this thread.
I am hoping that in November they'll announce 500mbits on docsis3.1 to start rolling out next year. |
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it is a shame Igni isn't around to provide more info, I haven't seen him in ages.
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I've been on 4 upstream channels for nearly a year. 3 are on 64QAM and one still on 16QAM. VM were intending that customers should have upstream at 10% of downstream. To do that, they would need to add upstream capacity, hence 4 channels. But I'm still on 200/12 so I don't know where VM are with that.
Incidentally, if one channel is on 16QAM then that will drag the overall upstream capacity down. 16QAM has 4 bits per symbol & 64QAM has 6 bits per symbol. But because a data packet is split across all the upstream channels, it can only be reassembled at the bit density rate of the slowest channel. |
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That's a bit **** (can't think of any other way to say it). Luckily both of mine are qam64 but knowing that non-identical pairs are pointless you would have thought they would only spend the time and money doing the upgrades if they could ensure that all channels in the bonding group run on the same modulation.
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We have 3x64qam upstream channels here and have been for quite sometime.
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Yes - I had 3 upstream channels for a while before the 4th came along. One of them has always remained 16QAM. VM won't want to keep the 25.8MHz channel at 16QAM but they're taking their time getting onto that.
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I'm waiting for the business 350Mb becoming in my area, then I may condider coming back to VM.
How about you Seph? Better SLA and no need for a phone line. |
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To be perfectly honest, our outgoing calls are minimal and the SIP phone service is kept largely as a way to allow family to call the house more than anything else. |
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One of the limitations of parts of the network is the outside plant where the amps in the street can use freq over 50 mhz . But the new kit being rolled out is more than capable . So being able to use more freq in the upstream will help . Docsis 3.1 rewrites the way HFC plant works using OFDM which can deliver some great upstream and downstream speeds :)
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I used to have 3 upstreams and now I back to 2 but strange how I used to be on 16 D/S and now I back to 8 D/S
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Possibly a reseg happened?
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A reduction suggests that a CMTS has gone out of service and the displaced people have been swung onto another CMTS, reconfigured to share out the now meagre resources. |
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Seems I have finally moved from 3 upstream channels to 4. Downstream still at 8.
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I am still on two. I had a third one which was qam16 for a couple of months a few years ago when they were trying to push out the wifi sharing thing for the first time but it got taken away when they knocked it on the head.
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After a 14 hour outage covering the most of Wirral on Fri 30th June it all came back on with 4 upstream channels all at 16QAM, before that it was always 2 channels at 64QAM so have I gone backwards?
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7 minutes after that screenshot and the power levels have dropped to 40/41dBmv
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https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/07/2.png |
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Aww, I was ready to sign up for a moment.
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Telf13 finally got 2xQAM64 last Thursday. Was previously on 2xQAM16. I'm on Telf14, still on 2xQAM16. Not usually too far behind once Telf13 is done.
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Swansea now has 4 must have happened in the past few days.
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I may have missed the post already saying that Manchester has 4 upstream bonded channels. Or is this now standard for SH3. :dunce:
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2017/07/5.jpg I was so pleased to at last get more than 50 Mbps I never noticed whether I had had 4 up 20 down all along. |
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All shubs can use a 4 channel bonding group if it is made available.
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All depends on the area. The network I work on is currently running 42mhz filters so there are only 3 upstreams in total. Once the amplifiers are upgraded this will open up more spectrum both forward and return. Different areas will have different equipment and different capabilities.
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Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
Another point to add, the areas with 4 bonded upstreams have most likely always had 4 upstreams. It's probably the case they have only recently become bonded
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That will explain what I have been seeing. I am on the business service on the Hitron. In this area (fed from New Malden) I see two upstreams, but after different reboots the two I see is different. It looks like there are three available, but which two of the three I get varies.
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Are the upstreams brought up to QAM64 before all 4 are bonded? Or are there areas with say 4x QAM16 bonded?
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Still only two bonded here, both at 64 QAM.
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Seems my 4th upstream channel vanished the other day, so now back at 3. Still only 8 downstream channels, but as during off-peak, this still delivers 200. Peak is another matter (approx 15-40), but that's a discussion for another thread.
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---------- Post added at 13:42 ---------- Previous post was at 13:14 ---------- Quote:
---------- Post added at 13:48 ---------- Previous post was at 13:42 ---------- So there is a programme to get all areas up to 4 upstreams, targeting 64QAM but obviously the modulations will respond to SNR drops on the channels. Getting 4 upstreams at 64QAM requires either DFB lasers in the nodes or digitised return paths. In some areas nodes and amplifiers need replacing. There are also issues in hubsites with regards to space and power. There are some areas where it took some quite extreme measures to get new CMTS in, or they haven't been installed yet and area awaiting those extreme measures. These will not have any space for new optics so will need some equipment and intelligence moved out into the field via Remote PHY and other options in the Distributed CCAP deployments. It is possible to cram 4 upstreams into a 42MHz network but tricky, and areas that have this limitation have run out of downstream bandwidth anyway. There's also the problem of the legacy set top boxes and modems that need to be gotten rid of. There are no plans to get all tiers onto 10:1 ratios, but some of them it's certainly doable. Once areas are onto 24 downstream channels that's the end of the upgrades on that score. 4 upstream channels is not necessarily the end-game there. DOCSIS 3.1 rollout will not be using 3.1 upstreams initially, it will use the same upstreams as the 3.0 network. This is not unusual, I'm not aware of any 3.1 deployments in the USA and Canada, where they are ahead of us, that are using 3.1 upstreams. Business are likely to get higher speeds somewhat before residential. |
Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
long time no see, welcome back
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[/QUOTE]
Getting 4 upstreams at 64QAM requires either DFB lasers in the nodes or digitised return paths. In some areas nodes and amplifiers need replacing. [/QUOTE] I've haven't worked on the network for a while, so could be wrong but I believe the digital returns for some reason can only go up to 65mhz, so VM are trying to move away from them. They are only used in segmentable nodes anyway. Although it's been a good 18 months so the situation may have changed! |
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The plan going forward is to push towards Remote PHY, where there's a 10Gb Ethernet link to the node and the only RF segment is from node outwards, rather than sending an analogue carrier down the fibre. This will improve RF performance to the home and substantially reduces space requirements in the hub site. Will require more power than existing nodes, though may be compensated for by improved power supplies and replacements of active amplifiers with nodes. |
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I have heard about the 10gb Ethernet delivery to the cabinet. I also know the potential delivery method. Although I believe it is aimed at business customers rather than resi. But things change over time so who knows
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I'm just wondering when my area will actually see any upgrades after seemingly languishing for years. there's no 300Mb yet, upload is still on 2x QAM16, the CMTS is a RiverDelta hunk of junk with the current single thread download speed issues that I and other people in the area have had to deal with since last year. Tbb places this area as bottom of the chart for VM performance now, when it used to be one of the best.
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Am I right in thinking that if I'm on 24 downstream channels then I'm on the newer, upgraded hardware?
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I'll see what I can find out regarding Dover hub site.
With regards to bonding 4 upstreams not a clue what the hold up is. There are plenty of areas that are perfectly capable but just haven't had the configuration rolled out and it's holding things up. ---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ---------- Dover is proving a real pain in the everything. Should be upgraded within the next 2.5 months. |
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TBB placed Lisburn as one of the worst VM areas as well. Good to know this area is not alone in the "top poor performance stakes" ..... <sigh> |
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Thanks for the info, Ignition. I hope it holds true.
We are still on 12 channels here due to the limits of the old CMTS. |
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Thanks for the reply Ignitionnet. Don't suppose you would be able to find out when this area (Telford, specifically Telf14) are likely to go 64QAM on the upstream? No worries if not :)
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If it's an issue with the network itself needing rebuilding you'll get a card through your door at some point to inform you of upcoming maintenance work. |
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Over the past few weeks my 4 upstream channels went back to 3 however my downstream always remained fixed at 8.
Last night everything appeared to change. I now am back to 4 upstream channels and now 20 channels, which is a little surprising as I always thought the plan was to go to 24. Any ideas on why the odd number? |
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Yes. 24 is the maximum capability of the platform, not a minimum. No reason to spend the money on deploying 24 straight away if 16 or 20 will suffice for now.
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What exactly is the upstream channel situation in Bath? Will 4 channels ever be here?
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The CMTS provider. So makes no sense financially to run at full capacity unless necessary. |
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The node my property is connected to, for example, only has about a hundred premises on it right now as the build is incomplete, so runs on 16 channels. I will play my part in triggering an upgrade by subscribing to the business 'Voom' 350/20 service, waiting on the next business service to come along. ---------- Post added at 21:34 ---------- Previous post was at 21:33 ---------- Quote:
When 24 downstream channels are inadequate for an area they will either have to split the node, which they may do via a remote PHY solution, or deliver DOCSIS 3.1 to offload heavy users from the 3.0 platform. |
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Isn't the idea of DOCSIS3.1 that instead of (say) 24 "large" channels, you have lots and lots of smaller channels to make better use of the available spectrum?
I wonder how that affects licensing. |
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Router# show controller integrated-cable 3/0/0 rf-port 158 verbose |
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That makes a lot more sense!
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It's all done this way as we're not that far away from not needing physical CMTS at all, all done in software, so need the ability to charge MSOs without having physical line cards for them to pay for. Nice explanation of this at http://www.gainspeed.com/our-solutio...-architecture/ |
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My area is fed from New Malden, and was on 12 down streams for a fair time. a few months ago it went to 16 downstream channels. Even though there was no apparent congestion this jumped to 24 down with 2 up about 4 weeks ago. It was done at the same time the CMTS was swapped for a Cisco 10k
No idea if the upstreams are 16 or 64QAM as the Hitron will not show that information for upstreams. Nor will it show operational config details. |
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yes it would be good to have it reveal a bit more. It certainly doesn't provide as much information as the residential devices about the service:-
DOCSIS WAN DOCSIS Overview Network Access Permitted IP Address Subnet Mask 255.255.248.0 DHCP Lease Time 04 Days,22 Hours,07 Minutes,20 Seconds Downstream Overview Force Downstream Frequency (MHz) Port Frequency (Hz) Modulation Power (dBmV) SNR (dB) Channel 1 139000000 256QAM 4.200 37.356 1 2 147000000 256QAM 4.000 37.356 2 3 155000000 256QAM 3.900 37.356 3 4 163000000 256QAM 3.800 37.356 4 5 171000000 256QAM 3.700 37.356 5 6 179000000 256QAM 3.700 36.387 6 7 187000000 256QAM 3.900 34.484 7 8 195000000 256QAM 3.700 35.780 8 9 203000000 256QAM 3.700 37.356 9 10 211000000 256QAM 3.800 37.636 10 11 219000000 256QAM 3.500 37.356 11 12 227000000 256QAM 3.300 36.610 12 13 235000000 256QAM 3.000 37.356 13 14 243000000 256QAM 2.900 37.356 14 15 251000000 256QAM 2.800 36.610 15 16 259000000 256QAM 2.700 37.356 16 17 267000000 256QAM 2.600 36.610 17 18 275000000 256QAM 2.600 36.610 18 19 283000000 256QAM 2.700 37.356 19 20 291000000 256QAM 2.700 36.610 20 21 299000000 256QAM 2.700 36.610 21 22 307000000 256QAM 2.700 36.610 22 23 315000000 256QAM 2.800 36.610 23 24 323000000 256QAM 2.600 36.387 24 Upstream Overview Port Frequency (Hz) BandWidth Modulation Power (dBmV) Channel 2 24400000 6400000 ATDMA 40.750 3 3 31000026 6400000 ATDMA 41.250 2 |
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One thing that I've noticed is that my connection is worse, if going by the tbb graph, when it is bonding the 2 upstream on 39.4 and 46.2MHz. The average latency on the graph is much more consistent when it's on 25.8 and 32.6MHz.
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Any further news on this? Still on 2x 16QAM here.
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^ My area was moved to a new CMTS late last month and we went from two to four Upstreams (24 downstreams), All of the Upstreams are QAM16 though, I heard that my area was upgraded to QAM64 a while ago, but seemingly not the node I am on.
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/11/16.png |
Re: Upstream channel bonding: Any plans to bond more than 2?
Just checked mine again, still on 2 x 64 qam (Up) and 24 x 256 qam (Down).
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Still 2x 64qam here too, however there is planned maintainence on the 22nd so I'll be keeping an eye on it.
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I'll admit to mostly being ignorant about how exactly qam works, but I would have expected 2 x 64 to be better than 4 x 16. |
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QAM64 = 6 bits/symbol
QAM16 = 4 bits/symbol At is simplest: 2 x QAM64 = 12 bits per thingy 4 x QAM16 = 16 bits per thingy So 4 x 16QAM is better than 2 x 64QAM. |
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Nope. I am lying in bed watching star trek atm so i cant dig out all the technical gumpf for you but qam64 offers a 50% increase in throughput over qam16. I can use any arbritray numbers for the sake of example. Say you have got two qam16's doing 20mbits each, that is 40mbits for the bonded pair. If you upgrade those channels to qam64 you are looking at 30mbits each and 60 for the pair. If however you keep them at qam16 and add a further two channels then you are looking at 80mbits for the bondings group. Like i said, that is rough numbers for an example but mathematically four qam16's give you 33% higher throughput than two qam64's.
Edit: damn you seph, i just spent 5 mins typing that out on my phone :p |
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Keep it short, mon General!
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If you knew me you have no idea how hilarious that is. I dont do short :)
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For which the price has been paid, mon General.
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Moved recently and when from a 24 downstreams to 12, 2 upstreams @ qam16
Also means the most I can get here is 200, at least they let me keep gamer, hate to think what me uploading does to the neighbours. |
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Today I've seen someone on the VM forum with not four, but five bonded upstream channels! :Yikes:
Screenshot of their image for reference. https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2017/11/21.png |
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That's insane that would be funny if it's actually real.
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I thought the SH3 was only capable of 24x4 :erm:
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