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-   -   Carillion Crisis (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33705917)

Maggy 15-01-2018 15:25
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Osem (Post 35932593)
IIRC the company is owed some £500m by 2 middle east states and that's more than half their debts.

Also I can just hear the outcry from Labour and the unions had HMG not awarded those contracts some months ago and thereby and put job at risk then. Rock and a hard place...
Labour is just as guilty as the Tories..I'm making no distinction.

denphone 15-01-2018 18:22
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35932623)
Labour is just as guilty as the Tories..I'm making no distinction.
That is very true as Blair and Brown are just as guilty as this current government but alas some only want to see things through their own illogical reasoning.

OLD BOY 15-01-2018 19:38
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35932623)
Labour is just as guilty as the Tories..I'm making no distinction.
And that is exactly right, Maggy. Labour awarded many contracts to Carillion during their period of office, too.

The problem is indeed with the tendering process. There should be less concentration on the lowest bids and more concentration on the overall package - how the tender meets requirements, quality, etc, but also the financial sustainability of the bid and the financial viability of the company.

Damien 15-01-2018 20:03
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
It's happened with rail franchises too. The cheapest provider wins even if it's obvious they will struggle to make it work. The other thing is these companies just sub-contract out the work to smaller suppliers and then don't pay them for months...

Maggy 16-01-2018 08:50
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42695661

Quote:
Firms working for failed construction giant Carillion on purely private sector deals will only have two days of government support, Cabinet Office Minister David Lidington has warned.

Carillion spent £952m with local suppliers in 2016 and used an extensive network of small firms, who are now waiting to learn if they will be paid.

Employers' groups are trying to assess the exposure of small firms, but said many faced financial hardship.

Critics want a review into the crisis.

Britain's second largest construction firm, which employs 20,000 people in the UK, went bust on Monday with debts of about £1.5bn.

Carillion's work stretched from the HS2 rail project and military contracts to maintaining hospitals, schools, and prisons.
Quote:
But the head of the Federation of Small Businesses said thousands of jobs and livelihoods were now at risk because those firms would be at the back of the queue for payment.

Mike Cherry said it was a situation made worse because Carillion extended its payment schedule to suppliers last year.

"These unpaid bills may well go back several months," he continued. "I wrote to Carillion back in July last year to express concern after hearing from FSB members that the company was making small suppliers wait 120 days to be paid."
It just gets worse and worse..Maybe business regulations need tightening up far more than they are at present though I suspect no one will have the will to do it. Prompt payment should be a necessary part of the schedule.

heero_yuy 16-01-2018 09:43
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Looks like the City was sceptical about Carillions position for some time:

Quote:
While the stock remains one of the most shorted on the London stock exchange, a number of hedge funds have closed out positions against Carillion, booking monster profits in the process.

Just over a quarter (26 per cent) of Carillion's shares are on loan, having peaked at over 32 per cent at the start of September, according to figures compiled by IHS Markit.

In order to bet against a listed company, hedge funds and other City firms borrow shares from large financial institutions and sell them on the stock exchange with a view to buying them back at a lower price at a later date.
Source

The auditors and the auditing process has to be questioned.

OLD BOY 16-01-2018 11:02
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35932702)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42695661




It just gets worse and worse..Maybe business regulations need tightening up far more than they are at present though I suspect no one will have the will to do it. Prompt payment should be a necessary part of the schedule.
I find myself agreeing with you, Maggy. I hope the government will take this collapse as a prompt to change things that need to be changed. For example, those who do not pay up on time should be held to account, so that the company to be paid can apply immediately for enforcement of the payment, with a fine for each day the bill remained unpaid. The company not paying should face a drastic penalty if it had not done so within three months of the order, such as a compulsory winding up. Pensions should not be capable of being plundered by companies - they should be required to pay all pension payments into a government agency for safe keeping and eventual payouts. And so on.

Many of our problems could be resolved by quite simple measures which would bolster discipline and stop the abuse of the law by companies.

denphone 16-01-2018 11:22
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35932716)
I find myself agreeing with you, Maggy. I hope the government will take this collapse as a prompt to change things that need to be changed. For example, those who do not pay up on time should be held to account, so that the company to be paid can apply immediately for enforcement of the payment, with a fine for each day the bill remained unpaid. The company not paying should face a drastic penalty if it had not done so within three months of the order, such as a compulsory winding up. Pensions should not be capable of being plundered by companies - they should be required to pay all pension payments into a government agency for safe keeping and eventual payouts. And so on.

Many of our problems could be resolved by quite simple measures which would bolster discipline and stop the abuse of the law by companies.
The trouble is governments of the last 20 years have become too Laissez-faire IMO as governments when it is right need to intervene more instead of leaving it to unfettered capitalist economics.

Carth 16-01-2018 12:07
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Carillion, just another company that got too big for it's boots.

Would be a shame if the Directors had to pay back their bonuses and pension pots . . . as if :rolleyes:

OLD BOY 16-01-2018 13:06
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by denphone (Post 35932719)
The trouble is governments of the last 20 years have become too Laissez-faire IMO as governments when it is right need to intervene more instead of leaving it to unfettered capitalist economics.
There are times when it is right to intervene, such as when companies are not playing by the rules. However, the rules need to be straight forward to understand and apply, should not unduly restrict new ideas and new ways of doing things and the rules need to let companies manage as they see fit but within accepted parameters.

When companies deliberately flout these rules, the penalties should be harsh enough to deter such behaviour in the future. There should be tax breaks for those employers that invest in growing their companies, pay their employees a fair proportion of the CEO's salary and provide better pension schemes. Tax evasion penalties should be so harsh that companies would move heaven and earth to comply, but all this would be in the context of a low tax economy. Tax avoidance should not be frowned on as this should only be possible through companies taking advantage of schemes approved by the government.

Laissez faire is all well and good, but given human nature, it needs to be applied with conditions and expectations.

Maggy 16-01-2018 13:14
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-42703549

Quote:
The government has ordered a fast-track investigation into directors at the failed construction firm Carillion.

The UK's second biggest construction firm went into liquidation on Monday, after running up losses on contracts and struggling with heavy debts.

The Business Secretary has asked for an investigation by the Official Receiver to be broadened and fast-tracked.

The conduct of directors in charge at the time of company's failure and previous directors will be examined.

"It is important we quickly get the full picture of the events which caused Carillion to enter liquidation," said Business Secretary, Greg Clark, in a statement.

"Any evidence of misconduct will be taken very seriously," he said.
Not holding my breath.

OLD BOY 16-01-2018 17:10
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maggy J (Post 35932748)
We do need an investigation, but the first priority should be to work out how to keep this business going and to ensure that all the employees and creditors are paid without delay.

BenMcr 16-01-2018 17:30
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by OLD BOY (Post 35932775)
We do need an investigation, but the first priority should be to work out how to keep this business going and to ensure that all the employees and creditors are paid without delay.
The business itself needs to fail. It needs to be shown that if you run your company into the ground it won't be rescued no matter who your customers are.

Saying that, I agree completely that employees and small sub contractors need as much help as is possible.

OLD BOY 16-01-2018 18:43
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BenMcr (Post 35932778)
The business itself needs to fail. It needs to be shown that if you run your company into the ground it won't be rescued no matter who your customers are.

Saying that, I agree completely that employees and small sub contractors need as much help as is possible.
Sorry, my post wasn’t clear. I agree that Carillion should be allowed to fail. I was referring to the resultant business dealing with public sector contracts. The liquidator will have to sort out the private sector part of the business.

Hom3r 16-01-2018 18:43
Re: Carillion Crisis
 
Every director should have their assets seized, and the "golden hand shakes" made void.

their house sold and evict them.

why should they get away will bankrupting a compy and keep their house while others will lose theirs.


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