Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

After finding my search option redirected to a VM search page, a little investigation found that VM had actually managed to inflict a change on my browsers settings. Note this effected a change to browser settings on my machine.
This view has been effectively confirmed as correct by VM support.
An opt-out option is on the page you end up on, but VM impose the change and expect you to find it and opt out.

This is the latest in the VM/phorm/data rape your customers saga.

http://www.virginmedia.com/myvirginm...r/feedback.php

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

im not supprised, i was using opendns in my router (altho this has been turned off last month due to net speeds ) and well i have not had those pages appear yet.

so all those that hate it use open dns to save yourself the hassle, its also great thing that protects you and family you can config parental controls and restrictions. we use opendns at work also which filters out social networking sites etc...

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I saw this earlier and as a result checked out my registry and browser and nothing there mentioning a ryanvm (might have it wrong but had it correct when I checked) entry.

I also tried browsing to see if I got the adavanced DNS search thing and I did, still without any changes to registry or browser, so I went to the page you've linked to and opted out.

Is it a security weakness in certain browsers that's allowing it to be so easily compromised?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Not a change to your browsers settings. It's a change in how Virgin handle DNS lookups or rather DNS lookups that aren't successfull. As far as I can tell, and I haven't proved this. Use the opendns service you won't get this.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Over react much?
Ok, so VM have introduced this change, you can opt out via the link that you posted.
Reading through the info, it says that it only kicks in when you misstype a url, not on any sort of search (or browser settings) as it works via DNS.
So calm down & opt out.
Thanks for the link tho.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Does it really matter?
Doesn't OpenDNS do the same thing or something similar?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

It's just them sending you too a VM Page when a DNS Results aint found..

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

instead of using virginmedias DNS tables it uses its own one, and you can customise it (block sites etc..) and also very good for the family (especially when you got the little ones) when you don't want them to go on any offensive websites. (bit like using a parental control program)

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

iv opted out just because i never use the address bar i do my stuff on google lol

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Can a mod change the title? It's a bit like being in Eastenders here sometimes! :D

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I opted out as I object to VM making even more money out of me. I already pay full price for my BB via my subscription.

In any case such "value added services" should be OPT IN not opt out.

Still no one expects slime ball companies who stealthily steal and no doubt sell our click stream data to play by the rules.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

And by Virgin making money out this, then its a way of keeping your subscription price down.

And what exactly do you mean by stealthily steal? As far as I can see Virgin have been quite upfront about this

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Just what is the issue? It's not like, they installed a KeyLogger and are logging all of your strokes and taking screenshots and storing them on a remote server are they?

Jasus, talk about over acting. You need to seriously think about what your saying here chap..

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Just looked at the OpenDNS site and they frequently suggest that you will get faster DNS lookups. Can anyone confirm that, as it seems unlikely that a lookup from OpenDNS in San Francisco (if the geolocation was right) 10 hops away is going to be faster than the virgin server sitting 5 hops away (194.84.4.100) and significantly closer.

(I know this wasn't the original point of this thread, just wondering if anyone is getting faster)

As to the original point, I rarely get addresses wrong, otherwise I would be googling anyway.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I have google as my home page and as my default search engine and just about everytime I open my browser I either go to a site from my favourites or I google it.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

In my experience it is significantly faster and infinitely more reliable.

For latency to be a factor one would have to look at the relative efficiency of each set of devices. It would appear that OpenDNS is faster by virtue of efficiency to a degree that overcomes latency.

VM's DNS servers often looked like a bottleneck during busy periods and although I shall not be using them it would be interesting to see if they are slower now that they are a nice little earner with extra work to get done.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

OpenDNS have servers all over the place, including one location in London. I use them at home and at work and speed has never been an issue, in fact I originally switched during a bad patch of reliability for Virgins servers.

However they do make their money of redirecting failed DNS requests in exactly the same way as Virgin so if that is a concern to you they are not an alternative.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

OpenDNS making money off my choice to use them is of no concern to me whatsoever. They provide an excellent service at zero cost to me.

What I object to in principle is paying a high price for a product just to find that some form of extra financial exploitation has been implemented.

I was all for the old principle of advert supported software for free against the full paid product as advert free, but when someone tries a variation of both to enhance their bottom line I see it as exploitation.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

How is this any different than adverts in subscription channels such as Sky One, Living or the Sky Premium channels - for instance.

At least with this you can opt out if you want

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

In principle it doesn't but with subscription channels, we can choose whether or not to subscribe. If our enjoyment of those services is frustrated by the imposition of adverts then for many they are dumped and the primary plus secondary revenues are lost to the provider.

When exploitation is implemented within a core element of a paid for service it is a catch all on part of a service without which, for most the service will not work.

I suspect the opt out will be implemented by very few as although there is a notification on the VM website I would guess that few ever go there to trawl through something so boring.

As has been pointed out by another within this thread, the response is an apparent over-reaction but until VM completely disassociate themselves from the click through (phorm) type exploitation there is underlying suspicion as to their future path. This is IMO a partial but minuscule step in that direction and further reduces my trust in VM.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Agree this is the main concern, rather than the browser hijack itself.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

There is no browser hijack, nothing is changed on your PC.

As others have said, this is no different to what OpenDNS are doing, while I don't agree with not reporting DNS failures, if it means better funding for VM's network without costing me anything then where is the harm?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Sorry, wrong terminology. More correctly, DNS Hijacking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_hijacking

In particular

"The concern with DNS hijacking has to do with this hijacking of the NXDOMAIN response. Internet applications rely on the NXDOMAIN response to describe the condition where the DNS has no entry for the specified host. If one were to query the invalid domain name (fakeexample.com), one should get a NXDOMAIN response - informing the application that the name is invalid and taking the appropriate action (for example, displaying an error). However, if the domain name is queried on one of these non-compliant ISPs, one would receive an IP address belonging to the ISP. In a Web browser, this behavior can be annoying or offensive as connections to this IP address display the Web page of the provider, sometimes with advertising, instead of a proper error message. However, other applications that reply on the NXDOMAIN error will instead try to connect to this IP address, potentially exposing sensitive information like logins."

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Reported to el-reg, and a few other places, see if they wanna take the story and run.

VM have NOT been upfront about it. I wasn't even aware of it till I read this thread. No email or letter from VM informing me about it, along with instructions on how to opt-out, which they should have done, especially considering they decided to opt-everybody-in by default.

Only a webpage that isn't checked very often.

Oh, and I just switched to OpenDNS, although I have issues with OpenDNS, I have even bigger issues with a company that implements a DNS hijacking, without even having the manners to send me an email that they were implementing it.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I run Treewalk local DNS service. No issues with that and the addition of the Confetch plugin adds a lot of blocking/filtering options.

http://treewalkdns.com/

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

There is a 'What is this page' link at the very top every time it comes up

There is a 'What is this page' at the top everytime you encounter the VM page with the opt out link

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

hahahahahaha - you are a right plonker!

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Thats where vm fail, every added service must be OPT IN did vm just ignore the phorm scandal with a oohhh yeah we will still opt all of our muppet customers in (the way we get treat nowadays) give them as little as they know about it the better for us more monies.

Some vm staffers might be better off telling them to quickly go and change it before a few go and complain to the ico or offcom, they have already stated that anything that changes or has the likeleyhood to change communications (i.e blacklisting non partner websites or searches - Function creep standard) must be opt in.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

This is a lousy step by Virgin.

Among the problems it will cause... It will break features such as address bar search in Internet Explorer, and prevent other applications correctly discovering and reporting DNS lookup errors.

Its symptomatic of a communications company that has completely lost the plot... lost the capacity to comprehend the basic requirement for security, integrity and privacy in telecommunications services.

I'm so glad I left them.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I am sorry but am I missing something here..

I don't see the big deal?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Then yes, you're missing something.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

No, I don't think so - I think it's just "people" over dramatsing such a petty situation..

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

As stated before OpenDNS does the same thing and VM do offer an opt-out on the redirected page. There is no real issue.

When signing up for anything these days there is an opt out. So if your in danger of having a major panic attack or worse over this then opt out. I am sure this will help lower your blood pressure, until you realise your milk has gone off, next time you make your cereal. All those extra bacteria in my milk and they didnt even bother to tell me they were there. Heaven forbid!!!

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

If you don't see the big deal, fine, you've got nothing to worry about.

On the other hand, if you value having a choice about address bar search, or prefer NXDOMAIN errors to be returned properly without DNS hijacks, or consider that you have paid Virgin to provide you with a IETF/RFC compliant DNS service... then Virgin Media has suddently become a very poor choice of ISP.

If this is a 'service' people want, then Virgin should offer it to them as an opt in, not impose it.

Virgin have no business imposing supposedly 'value added services' without consent. (European directives makes that explicit).

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Plenty of other ISP's do this. Talk talk "impose" a search bar etc etc BT install 16 million things on behalf on "BT Yahoo" So seriously, is all this childish behaviour worth it?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I suppose it's nicer than getting "The Page Cannot Be Displayed" I don't get the Virgin one mine just goes to Google if i mistype something....

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

It seems advancedsearch.virginmedia.com isn't a Virgin host at all.

Its a firm called Skye by Nominum, a California based 'network monetization' business.

See here and here.

---------- Post added at 15:18 ---------- Previous post was at 15:15 ----------

That's probably because you've chosen Google as your search engine provider.

Now, when you key something into the address bar, you'll probably find yourself looking at a Virgin Media page provided by Skye-Nominum instead... unless you opt out of DNS hijacking.

The feature is called 'Search from the Address Bar' or Autosearch in IE (you'll find it in the Advanced Options dialog box).

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

You do have a choice, opt out! The worst case for you would be 1 yes 1 redircted DNS response. You see it the first time and then you opt out.

Strictly speaking then the only resonse you should get from your browser, is a domain not know response until you ask you browser, toolbar etc do allow a search functionality. Which for most people they probably would have a clue about.

So for most people this would mean going to a search engine and typing it and then searching.

JJ

---------- Post added at 15:22 ---------- Previous post was at 15:19 ----------


Why is OK for Google, Microsoft etc to do this automatically but not Virgin

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Mainly, because I choose to use Google, or choose to use Microsoft, or indeed choose to use [insert my favourite search engine/software provider here].

I have no quibble with Virgin offering a search service, and/or browser software, provided that I have a choice to use it (and my choice is respected).

It is not fine for them to impose their search service, or software, over my existing choice because they want to strip some traffic away from [insert my favourite search engine/software provider here].

See the difference?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

In your tag I see web design. Doesn't it bother you that this hi-jack breaks RFC protocols and can open up users to "cross site scripting attacks".

IMO this is just another of VM's lack of integrity when the long standing potential evaluation of Phorm (which was packaged as anti Phishing= safety) is stealthily replaced by something that is thought to be inherently unsafe and open to abuse.

Looked at in isolation this is no big deal but if attitudes have been poisoned by VM's past money grubbing practices I would rather they were upfront and honest and charged what gives them a reasonable return without resorting to underhand methods.

The ongoing contempt that VM displays toward their customer base defies logic. The recent free upgrade from 2 to 10Meg which coincidentally was just going up by £2 per month must have posed a few questions. I presume the transfer was free but tough luck that the free transfer was to a level that was subject to an imminent price increase.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

The key thing is that it should be OPT-IN!

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Or alternatively they don't upgrade anyone and both the 2Mb and 10Mb tariffs would have gone up by £2.

Still don't see the lack of integrity, they have provide some functionality that will be of help to a lot of users. With an easy way to not use it.

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

But then how would people know about it?!

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

How do people know about any other VM services?

Oh, and here's an interesting article I found

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/200...ps-error-page/

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Do google and Microsoft etc automatically acvtivate this search functionality, beacuse I don't remember telling the google toolbar to automatically give me a response including a search option.

For Virgin to be wrong so are Google, Microsoft etc until you explicitly ask for the functionality to be turn on. Whcih for most people will not happen.

My resonse seeing the google search appear the first time was 'that's a good idea, don't to manually search for the web address'


Is it really that bad to have 1 DNS response redirected.

JJ

---------- Post added at 15:49 ---------- Previous post was at 15:44 ----------

Are you seriously suggesting that people should look for automated DNS response options the same way they look for what TV, BB and phone supplier to use.

That would be a great ad 'Mistyped your favorite web address, don't worry Virgin Media have the answer'.

People are not going to look for options, again why is OK for other compaies to do but not VM?

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

This is the usual lets make a mountain out of a mole hill, Whats up nothing better to do today kids :rolleyes:

Just done it on purpose and opted out, There that's not hard is it

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

If you installed the Google toolbar, I'd guess that's because you chose to download and install it? And the reason you kept it was because you though 'that's a good idea'.

If you have a Microsoft OS, presumably that's because you bought a machine that had Microsoft OS installed? You had other choices.

I don't think many Virgin customers were aware (until today) that their DNS requests were going to be hijacked. It certainly didn't get much publicity. If you're still with Virgin tomorrow, I suppose you might argue those people had made a decision to stay with Virgin despite this change to their terms of service.

Is it really that bad? For me, yes. It demonstrates that Virgin are a lousy choice of ISP (but then, I've already 'opted out', or should I say 'opted in' to a decent provider who doesn't do things like that).

(<<< see).

For you, perhaps you see it differently.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

They obviously wanted XXX100,000's more 2 quids a month and judged that resistance would be mitigated by a speed increase. Bean counters probably assessed that churn could a devastating development if one part happened without the other as ADSL providers can easily under-cut a 2Meg supply on price.

Integrity in my book is being transparently upfront and honest in a manner that is designed to pro actively inform. They have my e-mail and contact me when they have something to sell but leave me and millions of others to find out by my own actions what they would rather I didn't question.

It should be OPT-IN and all users informed of this wonderful new helpful add-on via e-mail and then allowed to die on the vine as it most likely would.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Then if you are not a customer why make such a big fuss about it, Again nothing better to do today ????

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

But I never asked google or microsoft to mess around with my DNS response either so whats the difference? The goggle toolbar provides a search button on the response page I didn't explicitly ask them to do that, just a usefull by product of installing the toolbar. If I didn't want I could remove it(opt out).

Just the same as Virgin, see it the first time then opt out.

Yes I did chose to install the toolbar just the same as I chose Virgin Media to supply my BB and DNS queries.

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I've got every sympathy with people who were surprised by this change in their existing service. The reason for commenting is Virgins attempt to misrepresent this money making DNS hijack as a feature.

For people who understand it for what it is, and still choose to use Virgin, I'm not all concerned. Good luck.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Does this then hold true for all areas for example should virgin have left customers on 512kb internet connections until they they ask for a free upgrade. Personally I'd rather get the free upgrade without having to ask for it.

Most users getting an email about search options in a DNS query response wouldn't have a clue about what Virgin were talking about.

For the majority of users couldn't care less, for those who do notice either they aren't bother or they opt out.

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Seriously, who cares?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

The OP should add a poll to see who does :D

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Key point: Google and Microsoft are not doing anything to your DNS response. DNS hijack affects the way every application on your machine interacts with DNS.

From tomorrow, if you're still with Virgin... good luck to you. I guess there is an argument for saying you have made an informed choice (despite a change in the terms of service) to continue.

But others who don't should have the facility to cancel their contract (given the apparent change to the contract that now requires you to opt out of DNS hijacking).

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Yep - he will probably get more a "response" :D

---------- Post added at 16:15 ---------- Previous post was at 16:14 ----------

ACTUALLY: it doesn't interfear with your DNS - Plonker..

It simply, directs you to a "VM" Branded" page, when you get a 404 - it's very simple to edit....

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

It's not DNS hijacking, it's "Oops, the DNS server can't find the website you typed, here's a search page to help you " there aint anything malicious about it.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I will be. Wait no i better phone up and cancel my broadband so i can jump on a crappy slow adsl connection, There now don't i feel better :LOL:

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

It's simply a 404....

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Since you may have missed it the first time

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNS_hijacking

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I'm not stupid it just seems that the name is stupid.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Maybe I don't understand, all this does is add some search results to the response page.

Don't understand how Vigin can be hijacking there own DNS servers :D

So virgin have set of DNS servers but they use a set of rogue DNS servers to hijack the original ones and give back the same results!! Very clever, thats a cunning plan if I ever saw one.

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Your browser sends a DNS request VIA the VM DNS servers. The response the VM DNS servers receive is NXDOMAIN, as defined by the standards. However, instead of simply passing this response through to your browser, it is 'hijacked' by VM and replaced by the IP address of their ad-server.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Virgin are relatively new and back in the days of 512 it was, for me, Cabletel. I have had free upgrades in the past which were at nil cost for a considerable period of time. By the principle that they are now applying they could offer me a free upgrade to 50Meg providing I am prepared to pay the price differential. To me the definition of free is nil cost both to change and for the subsequent cost after the change .

Your opinion of the majority of users has been echoed by disparaging remarks made by VM's CEO. It is that view and the apparent truth in fact that allows exploitation.

A relatively small number of people saw the threat that Phorm had and through protracted and concerted effort frustrated attempts of implementation. This almost certainly doesn't warrant that much attention but shows that VM are still willing to scrape some money out of exploitation which is beyond their remit as a supplier of a service.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Hmmmmmm, hello is that retentions i wish to cancel my subscription because you have linked me to a search page instead of telling me the page is unavailable. you have also told me how to stop this happening, this is absurd. I would have preferred to have struggled to disable it on my own terms and kick up a fuss. BTW did you know that analogue will be no more soon and yourselves and the government have forced this change on me so i cant make my own decision about it. As a result of this blatant disregard of my rights as a numpty i want you to waive all disconnection fees, and get me off your services. As a goodwill gesture could you send me a dial-up modem so i can enjoy slow page loads, plenty of time outs and of course obligatory disconnections in peace. :D

sorry just thought i would waste some time concocting a pointless argument to see what it felt like to whine. I got to admit it gave me a buzz briefly, but the realised it wasted nearly 5 minutes of my life.

Apologies if this doesnt make sense, I lost interest in this post halfway through, but ever the optomist i had to continue with it because in my own way i thought it was slightly funny!!! :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Exactly. Given VM's attitude to net neutrality, further down the road, the DNS servers could be programmed to intercept queries for (say) google.com and return the address of whatever search engine provides VM with the most revenue. Wedge, thin end of.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Now where's that link to the tin foil hat song??

Ah...there it is

http://eclectech.co.uk/mindcontrol.php

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

:LOL:

Was thinking that myself.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

You've persuaded me to repost

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/11...vernment_plot/

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

It looks as though many people are either oblivious to mission creep or have such a short term view that it is inconsequential.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

....which is precisely what VM and the like are relying on.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

So its far better to give people the hassle of having to opt out?

Scam, plain and simple, I dont want VM or any company forcing stuff on me then putting the onus on me to opt out.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Then there is a simple answer for you if its thats much of problem.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I beg to differ. It is a way for VM to increase their profits.
Yeah? So why don't they ask me first before auto opting me in. If that is not stealth then I would like to know what is.

If VM had wished to do the right thing they would have followed the recommendations of ICO and made it an opt in service.

---------- Post added at 17:42 ---------- Previous post was at 17:34 ----------

Ideally access to your advice should be the same as VM's new "value added service". OPT IN not auto opt in.

I don't think anyone would like to be auto subscribed to open dns now would they.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Personally, don't care as long as my broad is stable and consitent..

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Unsurprisingly the two are linked.

VM will want to make a certain amout of profit - they do this either through increasing subscription fees or through other means

Yet when VM do offer an opt-in for Value Added servce - like the BB M uplift - everyone complains because they aren't doing it automatically!

That was a requirement of PHORM not this redirect. The two are not the same. There is no storing of user information

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

What's she got to do with it?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Your right guess I'd better brush up on my prgramming skills and write my own browser application. You never know when microsoft / mozilla / opera / apple will programme there own browsers to intercept web requests as well.
:rolleyes:
JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I have opted out, but this should be opt in not opt out

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

the point is they should ask first then you opt in, the slow but steady "opt out" if you don't like it is just to push the idea that that's the way it should be


it isn't you should always be asked first ! it may be a trifling thing this time but next time it may not

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

The fact that they opted me in without pre-warning us is what concerns me.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Come on, feel bloody free to enlighten me, its not for vm to opt in people without carrying out any kind of fact finding mission to establish if anyone wants it.
Surely they cannot be that desperate for money.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

One day there will be an alternative, then they will be very desparate and no doubt will rue the days when they thought nothing about abusing their loyal customer base for a few extra pennies to swell the dividends and executive bonuses.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Ah love threads like these. BenMcr does his moonlighting as VM PR man on the forum, a couple of people say they don't see the issue, others bring out the usual 'tin foil hat' related stuff.

It's a pain in the arse in that it breaks VPNs, and it can be very inconvenient when one is actually looking to see if something resolves, some applications rely on NXDomain being returned. With your 8 years of experience and various bits of paper webcrawler I would have thought you'd appreciate the importance of adhering to standards, especially when applications, quite rightly, make assumptions that these will be adhered to and function in certain ways.

It's a money grab by VM, nothing else. If frustrated a swift opt-out is the way to go. Several ISPs have done it throughout the world, to the huge annoyance of some customers. That said they've every right to be annoyed, in a perfect world we really should be asked before VM set about breaking some applications deploying non-standard configurations.

I seriously doubt there are privacy implications here though, but it is a pain in the backside in that one could waste a not inconsiderable amount of time troubleshooting to eventually find the cause is Virgin's fiddling with DNS.

Mercifully doesn't affect me as I use OpenDNS, opted out from the automagic search naturally but it really could have been handled so much better - some notice would have been nice.

---------- Post added at 02:44 ---------- Previous post was at 02:36 ----------

*Cracks knuckles*

Such as reducing subscription fees for 50Mbit? They make as much profit as the market and their costs permit, not what they 'want to'. They set targets of course, but these are required to be realistic in the context of the operating market. If companies could just decide on their profit and then make it by one means or another they would have total market power. It's an attempt to increase indirect revenues same as everyone else who has deployed this gack because the market won't tolerate price increases and indeed in the case of 50Mbit evidently requires a price reduction.

Don't be so obtuse. This isn't a value add, it's a money grab. If Phorm were fully deployed on an opt-out basis you'd presumably be criticising people for complaining about that not being opt-in as well. The 2-10 upgrade was purely value add and had no negative implications for customers receiving it, this can. As I said before people working from home on a large number of VPN clients absolutely require that their 'public' DNS gives an NXDomain response so that Windows will fail over to their company-specific internal DNS to resolve internal names.

How exactly do you know what the third party are doing with the information?

Seriously Ben leave the PR to Alex B and Asam A.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

For your average user this is a none issue and might actually be of some help.

for those that is does effect they will recongnise whats going and have one (1) request 'hijacked'. Now is that such a big deal.

An opt in option won't work for most users as they won't have a clue what it's about. So it would deprive them of a potentially usefull addition (very minor). If Virgin did manage to explain it to them I expect that most of them wouldn't careless.

As for making money out of this, well suprise suprise fancy wanting to make money.

Then we have people who are extrapolating this into the removal of net neutrality and selling of customer data to the highest bidder.

Compared to the practiaces of companies such as Microsoft or Apple, Virgin are lagging way behind

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

There will be an advert or something along soon and the make a mountain out of a mole hill regulars will get there teeth into that then. One week from now this will have been forgotten

In the mean time the world continues to turn and my Internet continues to work the way it did yesterday. Ok i have had to spend 10 seconds opting out of this but i have to op out of many things each day this is no different and certainly will not make me dump VM and run like a headless chicken to a slow crappy adsl connection.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

point is case,

My wife was asking what I was posting, started to exaplain DNS request saw the board look slide across her face, until I got to the point where I told her you got search resukts back if you miss-spelled some thing.

Her response was 'Oh you mean like google'

JJ

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

How does it exactly break VPNs? From what i can tell, it should make no difference as you should be using the VPN target's DNS servers as there could be differences between internal and external resolution on any domains the company uses.

You have no evidence what VM will use the money for, do you really think the exec types will go for something like this rather than a simple price increase (something that they would actually understand)?

I assume by this you're perfectly happy with OpenDNS doing it as opt-in but not happy that VM are doing it?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

The simple answer is that this is VM and therefor a **** storm should be raised for that very reason :rolleyes:. It all boils down to who has the biggest chip on there shoulder about VM, I have not seen Arthur in this yet but i am waiting :LOL:

Its happened now so you a choice.

Opt out and get on with your life.

Go running to a adsl provider with all the hassle that will create and will be more than simply opting out.

Sit there and continue to complain and complain and complain until it jolly well hurts :rolleyes:

Personally i have better things to do with my life than complaining about VM because i have a chip on my shoulder about them.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Is this active for everyone? Just that I don't get the redirection at all for failed DNS requests.. Might be the business BB I have even though it's still going though the usual VM DNS servers

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

The problem is, with services such as OpenDNS, I choose to opt-in. With VM's implementation, they opted me in without my permission (or knowlege until I mistype a url), and I must choose to opt-out.

Also as someone pointed out IF the service is being provided by a 3rd party company, who isn't even in the UK, then there may be some privacy issues.

I don't have a chip on my shoulder about the company. I am satisfied with my broadband and telephone service. Their offshore call centers have a lot to be desired, but once you get someone competent and not a script reader, problems do get fixed. However, I DO object to them sneaking things like this in, and the underhand method of sneaking it in without telling anyone until after the fact, makes me wonder what else they are planning.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

No it's a staged rollout.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

World domination :LOL:

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Well by the looking at the companies client list, if you ARE worried then moving to another ISP might not help.

http://www.nominum.com/customers/index.php

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I think, personally, alot of you are being "over" paranoid about this - it's nothing major, really, just a simple "dns cannot be found" holding page, nothing major really? As i've said before, alot if not all ISP's do it. To list a few, BT, Talk Talk, Tiscali, Namesco etc etc.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

I am with Milambar with this one, I would much rather opt in to something and not opt out when I get round to noticing something is not quite right.

As far as you saying 'it's nothing major' webcrawler, how many nothing majors do you have to join together to make something major?

Paranoia is not even an issue here, I don't feel the need to get my tin-foil hat out from the bomb proof cupboard under the stairs but surely it's within everyone right to be aware on what is going on around them.

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

And how is windows supposed to know which DNS to use? VPNs are an additional virtual interface, not an entire new protocol stack that assimilates the entire PC. It binds to the physical interface via DNE in every case I know of, Deterministic Network Enhancer, and the DNS is only used once those further up the DNE stack are used.

You can't use the internal DNS on a VPN all the time, when you disconnect you won't be able to resolve a thing.

Have you actually used VPNs at all dev, given that you made a comment 'from what I can tell'?

Nor do I care any more than I care what they do with the subscription charges. I said it was a money grab, I made no guess what was being done with the money but given that I doubt it's going to be all sent to charity it would seem likely it's going to VM's bottom line. If you think the exec types weren't aware of this given its' potential for bad publicity that's simply silly. Of course they were, presented to them as a value add with potential revenues that may be received from it.

Yes perfectly happy. I had a choice to use OpenDNS and when you sign up it informs you what it will be doing to your service and gives you the option to opt out. I can't remember getting that option when my router took the DHCP lease from VM with those addresses on it.

---------- Post added at 15:56 ---------- Previous post was at 15:55 ----------

Although all VM customers now, in theory, receive the same DNS addresses these are different servers, with the server one uses selected by Anycasting.

---------- Post added at 16:00 ---------- Previous post was at 15:56 ----------

As per http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/34854400-post84.html I'm not paranoid it's just irritating in that it breaks some things. Regardless of whomever else does it it doesn't justify someone else doing it, and that it's outsourced gives some nice ammo to the more paranoid :(

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Just a question but does this actually affect all lookups or just those on the HTTP protocol (if there is a difference)

If you ping a non-existant domain what happens?

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

The VM DNS will respond with the address of the search page. There is no way to determine if a lookup is for HTTP or another protocol, so you'll be pinging the server farm hosting the search page. Tech support may have some fun with that one ;)

Re: Virgin Media Hijack customers browser search options
 

Not wanting to quote anyone in particular, but to all those who bang on about Internet standards as being the be-all that ends-all (?), who of you, or us, have security measures in to protect their PC's/Networks that breach fundamental RFC's? Probably everyone who is concerned about their security, and most of those against this mechanism quote a potential security issue.

Me puts hand up.

Granted this DNS hijack should probably have been opt in rather than opt out, but as has already been pointed out we are at liberty to say no, once and for all.

"Mission creep", "erosion of privacy", "breaking internet standards", "money grabbing ISP's" are all terms we love to bandy about like sweets flying out of a pinata.

We talk about Internet standards in terms of "must", "do" or "should" as if it really matters, or it supports an argument. Well that's fine in one way, but surely the same argument has to be applied to other things reliant on the same standards that we don't appear to mind, can we have it both ways?

VM have provided many with a reliable Broadband service, reasonably consistent speeds near to the advertised package, and a host of other bits n pieces such as security software, email, and other services such as V Stuff(ed) and that new music thingy coming out this year.

So, they want to make a few pence of each link me may click on if we get a page error, assuming we haven't opted-out. I don't have a problem with it. Security breaches from said service? XSS perhaps - get a good browser with some decent add ons such as no-script - cracking utility in my opinion.