Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Technically is 10, I retracted my vote after more information was supplied about how Phorm appears to work.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Good for you :) :tu:


The less that agree to this the better

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

12 (-1 from Toto) that are happy to share their data - needless to say even with their odd choice, there are 95% who have voted don't want to share their data.

But as I said earlier the 11 voters would probably kick up a big fuss if we all camped out on their door step and or started watching their every move, in the house by looking through their windows, or watching them in the street.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Here's a thought.
5 comp's in my house all online, connecting through the router.
Husband on one comp.
17yr old daughter and myself using mine.
15yr old daughter on her comp.
12yr old daughter on her comp.
10yr old daughter on her comp.

Now, if my husband regularly surfs for porn, not saying he does,
I don't know and I don't care, he lives on WOW, but say he does.
If I'm into meeting guys to have wild sex or I surf the net looking
for vibrators, sex toys, edible lingerie. For the record, I'm not and I
don't.
If I haven't opted out and bear in mind we all connect through
the router,
Will my children be subjected to ads for vibrators and
big breasted Bertha putting on a show??????

How will they determine what ads go where?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Not even sure I understand it now...

Are they proposing to interfere with ads served by other sites, just how far reaching is this - after all, an ad-network can run with cookies, with no involvement of an ISP.

As for anti-phising, the "good" feature that this is using as a trojan horse to cajole support of their ad/spware activities, there are many other ways to implement that - IE7 has one built in. It seems like this means intercepting all traffic, a return to unreliable proxies?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Some very good points there. They will have no idea of the age of the person they are going to subject to these adverts. The company that Virgin will be selling its customers info to has not got the best reputation in the industry. In fact it would not surprise me one little bit that Phorm would not care who they sent adult adverts to as long as they make there money from it.

I can remember spending hours removing all the porn popups from one persons computer that was being served up night in night out by 121 media Aka Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it......... ;)

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

If you use multiple PCs, unless they have a method of determining what goes on behind a router (which, with some problems, is technically feasable), they won't. If you use one PC (wether with one user or seperate users for each family member), they won't be able to at all.

I would, of course, be happy to see technical details from Virgin or Phorm about how their system gets past this little problem (although I don't think it does), but I doubt I will.

It's also built into Google. If your google search turns up an undesirable site, I believe you get a query from Google as to whether you want to go to that site.

Back to browsers, Opera also has an anti-phising feature, and even if Firefox doesn't, I am sure someone has written an extension to enable it.

Not to mention anyone of a number of all in one "Internet Security" suites that offer this feature.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

I imagine (in response to multiple computers through NAT) it will become more and more the onus upon the account holder to defend themselves.

There will be a link to phorm to opt out completely and they will ask you to visit it on all devices that can access the internet so one users data doesn't cross over. There will be another link to contact a customer service operative for larger organisations on a case by case basis where they will block an IP from all adverts that are remote third party risky, but push through those from respected advertisers without using keywords, so a safe advert policy. Along with a requirement to renew this every 6 months say on a rolling basis.

To avoid every customer using this they can implement very strict filters on the sites you can visit through the phishing mechanism for your IP, so anything "rated 18" will be blocked and logged, then queried as to why you need an exception on this basis for your internet facing IP and a recommendation you switch back to the cookie method of opting out for individual devices.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Thank you Rob (and the Cable Forum Team) :)

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

You seem to know a lot about the finer detail.

But why all the opt out stuff. This should be opt in, and certainly if you have opted out that's it, you should not have to go through that rigmarole every few months. Or is that a sneaky way of catching people back into the dodgy net?

Bottom line I do not want or accept this system as being something I want anywhere near my browsing habits. I do have nothing to hide. I just will not accept it. If brought in without a clear opt in policy that guarantees my privacy, Virgin Media will loose my custom.

---------- Post added at 23:12 ---------- Previous post was at 23:05 ----------

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/investi...5&in_page_id=3

Do you really trust someone with such a reputation anywhere near your privacy :(

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

I did my best to read through the posts, but I'm sorry if I missed one. My main concern is, is this technology going to be injecting things into our pages, even if we opt out?

That is to say, when I go to a website, I am no longer getting the original version of that website, but instead a page that has been processed by phorm and had their javascript code injected into it, then passed back onto me?

Furthermore, the information about the scam protection seems particularly worrying - that again, all our website requests are going through phorm and then to the server, then back through phorm and back to us - even if we opt out with the cookie, presumably this gross violation of privacy and annoying transparent proxy of forms will be in the way - the cookie will just tell it to skip the warning, but it's still all happening behind the scenes.

As phorm is so happy to say, this is on the ISP network, and thus I will no longer trust the Virgin Media ISP network - there doesn't seem to be any way out, and the opt out process certainly wont help

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

It's going to cause a lot of family rows.. People have joked about the father in the family looking at porn, and the mother catching him, but what if it's something more serious? Not that I am suggesting for a second that Porn isn't serious.

A child suffering abuse from their father, then looking up advice on the Childline site, then the father logging on and getting ads for Child Protection stuff?

A daughter thinking she might be pregnant, going to various advice sites, looking up pregnancy testing kits, then another member of the family logging in and getting ads for pregnancy related stuff. I could go on with other examples, but you get the gist. Virgin's action could end up causing a lot of people a *lot* of problems.

As for all this "opt out" nonsense, I am not a lawyer, but that would appear to be a clear violation of the Data Protection Act 1998 which requires that users be offered the chance to opt *in* to (not out of) schemes such as these.

Simply put, this system stinks.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

It will be Opt Out for one reason

virgin Media will make

££££

Thats why.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Can you imagine - expectant mother spends 9 months looking forward to their baby, researching, buying. Poor woman has a still born and gets ads for the next year or so offering baby products.

You're right Stu, it stinks.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

The issue is not about blocking the ads from getting through. The issue is them storing and collecting the surfing data in the first place.

And, I don't see why I should have to deal with Phorm. I am not a customer of Phorm, I don't have any relationship or contract with them.

It seems like Virgin Media are going to collect and send the data to Phorm regardless, but you'll be able to ask them not to target ads at you. That's not good enough.

The trail of URLs I visit in a day are easily analysed to determine my identity. This has already happened to AOL customers when AOL leaked their search queries.

It is up to Virgin Media to allow people to opt-in to this system, and, if they don't, to not collect the data in the first place.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

El Reg has finally gotten hold of this one too.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

VM might think they are going to make money out of this but i seriously urge them to rethink. I am not opting out of anything as i shouldn't be in anything in the first damn place. As for how it is going to work i don't give a damn as i didn't ask for it i don't want it and i shouldn't have to inconvinience myself dealing with it. VM seriously think about this or your going to lose a lot of customers.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Well, lets see what they plan to do, opt-in or opt-out. I don't think customer losses will be an issue, simply because there will be few places to go if this does go forward. What they may see though is a significant reduction in portal hits....THAT could potentially hit their advertising revenues.

Did you notice how much BT could make in 2010?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Yeah i noticed and know damn well thats the reason this is being done. But the fact remains no one should have to "opt out" of whatever little scheme they want to try.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

£££££Â £Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£à ƒâ€šÃ‚£ will ensure that you WILL have to op out of there SPYWARE system

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Sadly yes and i don't trust them for one minute to abide by any opt out i mean not being funny how the hell will we know if our surfing is still being harvested. That's the crux here and VM have put that doubt into my head massively affecting how i will regard VM in future job well done there on me at least.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Spoke to The Information Commissioner's Office - http://www.ico.gov.uk/ and they say they are 'looking into it'. You can ring them on 01625 545 745, so at least the powers at be are aware of current events.

So until this story fully unfolds my advice would be to use TOR - http://www.torproject.org/ and take back the some of that privacy and anonymity that our ISP's have so 'kindly' tossed into the bin!

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Hi All,
I see one or two comments about opting out. Where is it said there will be any options.Just asking a question because those of us who have been with ntl aka VirginMedia for any length of time know that any give and take is always to their advantage. Plus I saw somewhere that it wasn,t just VirginMedia talking to this company, BT were there as well.
George.

---------- Post added at 16:29 ---------- Previous post was at 16:19 ----------

Sorry,
I,ve just read the article on The Register and it answers the question I was asking. It is a disgrace really. It just means we will have to watch just what is happening more in the future.
As I say, sorry I should have read more closely.
George.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Thanks for this - Keep us updated with any information you get back from them, infact if more people phoned up to complain the better.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Nice one. I have just installed TOR :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

There is an incredible irony in the stance UK ISP's take which looks like double standards in the extreme. The government has charged ISP's with the task of stamping out file theft (music and video) by early 2009 and the ISP's respond with their age old argument by drawing an analogy with the post office and claiming that they cannot look inside those packets to determine contents. It is a good analogy inasmuch as it takes a judge to sign off on mail interception but I suspect the motivation is not privacy related but cost related with no reward.

However when there is a carrot of a good little earner for spying on customers and intercepting surfing patterns it would appear that the Post Office analogy falls down. If our letters were opened and some advertising spam stuffed inside commensurate with the contents I dare say that the outcry would give the perpetrators a business lifespan of hours.

I see that from the reports linked within this thread that BT is expected to make £85 million by 2009. On the basis of BT's turnover (billions) that is a pathetic little sum and hardly worth the effort if there is a risk of seriously upsetting customers. Therein lies a point of interest which I will never forget and that was the comment from a senior director or CEO of NTL when it was stated that customers are confusing bits with bytes, kilos with megas etc which all basically added up to an insult aimed at the customer base which implied that they are all unsophisticated Joe six-packs.

The ADSL ISP I also use has a mainly business orientated client base and they would know for sure that a stunt like this would turn them into an ex-ISP in very short order. This prospective invasion of privacy is IMO an act of contempt against the customers and displays pretty well how we are valued.

I sincerely hope that this forum has more clout than the numbers of members because a few hundred votes in a group of 10K will be treated with derision against a customer base of millions by upper management.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 77 & 102]
 

Will do, although I was informed that any updates on this issue would be posted via their website, Im assuming they mean via their e-newsletter & alerts - http://www.ico.gov.uk/tools_and_reso...nd_alerts.aspx

Totally agree. The more people that ring up and complain the more chance there is that the ICO will resolve this whole debacle, either one way or the other. That number again is 01625 545 745. You can also complain via letter using THIS prepared form if you so wish. More info here - http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints/data_protection.aspx


Good stuff. I know it can be painfully slow at times, but can’t complain as it is after all free \o/

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

FAQ added in post 1 and News item updated to reflect recently posted information in this thread.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I strongly dislike the idea, purely because it means that all websites will have to be screened and edited to suit the ISP's system.

Also, presumably it will filter out ads on sites (such as this one), replacing them with generic ads taking revenue away from those sites.

Plus I can see it being unreliable and targeting things that look like ads, but aren't.

Also, the opt out system is woefully inadequate. I use several computers and browsers and cookies are frequently cleared.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Curious, how does TOR (The Onion Router) preserve my privacy when all it is is a glorified NAT or Proxy. Phorm say that they don't collect IP information, so how does TOR fit into the equation?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Presumably anyone using that service would have their data mixed up with other people's data so it would be much harder to link the usage data with a specific person.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

OK, makes sense then.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Can't find it anywhere, so apologies if the following link has been posted: Someone has set up a site about the Phorm system (basically pointing out how it works and why it's a bad idea) and there is an accompanying forum: http://www.badphorm.co.uk

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

As far as I can see TOR cannot do any good whatsoever if the scanning mechanism is located within VM's network. If packets cannot be seen or identified by VM and routed to the originating IP then you have no internet. If the scanner is located where it can see your IP packets, within VM's network, then it doesn't matter if you have been around the world hopping anonymously from node to node because your packets ain't coming back if VM cannot route them and anything looking over VM's equipment's shoulder can see what you see.

I do not think privacy advocates ever thought that people's own ISP's would fit spying equipment which is about as difficult to protect against as having someone sitting beside you reading your screen.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

With regard to this issue and whether there are applications (out there) to circumvent the system - TOR being discussed. I believe (for Firefox users) there already is an extension to tackle this particular issue, namely TrackMeNot.

To quote from the representative extension website: "TrackMeNot is a lightweight browser extension that helps protect web searchers from surveillance and data-profiling by search engines. It does so not by means of concealment or encryption (i.e. covering one's tracks), but instead, paradoxically, by the opposite strategy: noise and obfuscation. With TrackMeNot, actual web searches, lost in a cloud of false leads, are essentially hidden in plain view. User-installed TrackMeNot works with the Firefox Browser and popular search engines (AOL, Yahoo!, Google, and MSN) and requires no 3rd-party servers or services."

Forgive me if this has already been suggested, but I couldn't bring anything up in the searches, anyway it's (at least) worth a try.;)

Si thee

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

There’s a really well written complaints template HERE. Download it, print it, post it, exercise your right to complain to Virgin about this gross invasion of our privacy.

Until more is known about how exactly our clickstream data is being passed to this third party, I would still recommend using TOR as it certainly can do no harm, and will quite possibly provide some degree of privacy and anonymity for those that want it.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

No, TOR would work to defeat this.

A TCP/IP packet is made up of header information (where the packet came from and where it's going) + data. Yes, the ISP can see that packets containing data are travelling from your machine to another machine on the Internet. But each packet contains data that is encrypted.


TOR is a "network on top of a network". The packets enter the TOR network on your system and exit on a random system somewhere else, encrypted on the way. So, they won't be able to see which website your visiting because all they will see if encrypted packets passing over their network. And, even if they see the packets leaving the TOR network, they won't know where the packets originally came from.

TOR actually was designed with the idea that the ISP might be spying on people, where ISP equals the government.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

great explanation :) , hopefully that should help set some worrying minds at rest.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Melevifftl,

Yes I am wrong in my assumptions. I have read the Tor documentation and it does look as though Tor will provide privacy against ad spies even within VM's network.

I have tried Tor albeit a long time ago when it was discussed in a American forum's security section. The package to run Tor appears to require Privoxy + Tor + within Firefox Switchproxy (to turn it on\off). Times may have changed but because it was so slow, back then, that I uninstalled it all within hours.

In the past my interest in privacy add ons was primarily curiosity but with the levels of online financial transactions climbing towards becoming the norm for almost all such transactions, privacy is becoming essential. It never fails to surprise me just how much information is required for an online transaction before a secure server (https) is switched and the padlock closes.

Thanks to the poster on Trackmenot. As that just constantly sends queries to multiple search engines whilst Firefox is open it strikes me as though a search engine owner could consider the product and user as maliciously adding to a flooding of their system. I will not use the product but thanks for the info.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Another reason to dump VM, when will people learn.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

However, BT and Carphone Warehouse are already trialling, with Sky considering it.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Source? (Sky considering that is).

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I would also like to know the source.

Actually it makes sense for Sky to consider and reject. If and when there is a data leak scandal it would give them both the opportunity and ability through press associations to exploit the scandal fully with a told you so added angle.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

According to El Reg: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...a_summer_2007/

BT have been doing this as early as last summer in secret... Makes for interesting reading

Edit: According to The Reg, Phorm have or are approaching all UK ISPs to get them to sign them up for this...

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

That is a hell of a difference from "Sky are considering it" though (assuming that's what your edit refers too after Stuart C's comment.)

I get salesman at the door sometimes but it doesn't mean i consider buying anything.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

No it doesn't. But let's say they might consider it, that would be *another* reason for you to ditch them and then perhaps you can 'learn' with the rest of us can't you?, as you put it earlier.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Indeed, I don't think Sky are that daft.....that said though they make hardly anything from their BB products, so they may well see it as a viable option if the current uproar dies down.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I WILL dump virgin for ALL my products if this goes ahead and is OPT OUT not OPT IN, However if BT have been selling private data without informing there customers then i would not put it past Virgin to do that as well ?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I don't think it will die down unless one of several things happen..

Virgin Media announce they are not to commence any form of data tracking analysis and then sell this information on to a third party for further monetary gain.

If they do announce that they are doing this or some form of information comes out that they have commenced it, they need to apply the option that this is an 'Opt in' facility and not an 'Opt out' one.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

So your argument is that although Sky are not currently considering this (as far as we are aware), or traffic shaping etc that i should pretend they are so that i can dump them and move to somebody like, say, VM who are actually doing this and charging more for the privilege?

I've got to say, brilliant idea my man, truly brilliant.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

That would be some argument you have invented on a whim because I certainly haven't said anything of the sort. Although...

...It really goes to show that you don't take anything in, Virgin Media are not currently doing this for the moment, they haven't decided to start this yet. If you actually bother to take in what is being said to you and not interpret some invented crap and make up some arguement to suit your own one sided agenda, you might actually be someone worth having a debate with.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Guardian article linked a few pages back.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2008...bt.virginmedia

Your spinning it, the quote is:-

Absolutely no direct mention of Sky in that article, your inferring that as they are talking to "all ISP's" that Sky are concidering it.

Naughty, Naughty... :nono:

---------- Post added at 18:46 ---------- Previous post was at 18:45 ----------

Aye, that's right Mick, your right and im wrong again. :dozey:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tbZDjnWtK1A

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I did read that Sky were considering it.

Anyhow, if you aren't interested in this companies actions, why post in a thread about it? Unless you just want to use it to further your anti-vm agenda.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The you will have a source then wont you.

I am very interested in this companies actions as i would like to see it crash and burn, its a blatant breach of privacy and akin to building up a personal profile of somebody's interests, hobbies, wealth and habits.

By telling people to move away from VM (just move away was all i said remember, not necessarily goto Sky) it may encourage people to get wise to this and at the same time find themselves a better provider.

If they happen to goto Sky and leave VM then that just sticks it up VM even more.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I just took a look at the webwise opt-out provision...

• The opt-out procedure misleads those wishing to opt-out if they have scripting disabled. The web page text suggests the opt-out was successful when in fact the webwise site only attempts to set the cookie using javascript (which the user has disabled).
• The cookie currently only has a default lifetime of 730 days, after which ISP subscribers would have to "opt-out" again.
• The cookie is called userType and stores a value field of either 'BT User', 'TalkTalk User' or 'Virgin User'. I'm unclear on this... but why store this unless the opt-out is per ISP? What about those who take a laptop between subscribers; tentatively living together as a couple, children of divorced/separated parents etc..?

There's also a test domain of thelathe.com, they're a web development firm in NY -- I assume they wrote the code.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well you are the one dreaming up assumptions and making up arguements where they don't exist. Try debating properly if you want a serious reply. This thread was going okay until you entered it.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Thanks to the posters who gave the heads up on TOR.

I installed it today along with it's companion Privoxy plus the on\off switch add on. Unfortunately it is no better than when I tried it years ago as it took 63 seconds to get to and load cable forum's site. I tried loads of other sites and decided, whilst I still had hair left, that I cannot live with surfing speeds which are almost as slow as when I used a ridiculously slow dial up modem (V21 = 300 b\sec) with the first Mosaic browser. Switched off I was able to load the site and auto login in a fraction over 3 seconds (according to Firefox). For me it is no answer.

If anybody else has tried it and found that it just doesn't want to un-install.... it runs as a service and has to be stopped before most of it goes. The rest of the removal involves a bit of brute force and a registry clean up.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Will this one do? So where are you going to go if SKY also decide to do this? Maybe best to give up the internet altogether?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Alright, own up!

Who was the "Anonymous coward" that posted the CF article on El Reg's second Phorm article? :)

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I feel your pain, 63 seconds to load this page is pretty ugly, though I must admit its not actually all that bad here. This board seems to load almost as quick with TOR enabled as without, so I guess it all depends on the luck of the circuit thats made at the time of connection. Some circuits will be better/quicker than others. Just pot luck.

Conversely I've had a few other pages not even load earlier today while using TOR, so its swings and round-abouts.

There is another application to try that supposedly provides web browsing anonymity - JAP. This too is a free service and might be of interest to those that are taking issue with TOR. I haven't used it myself yet as TOR seems to be pretty good at providing me the kinda service I'm looking for right now. But if anyone does give JAP a go please report back here and let us know how you get on with it. Its always nice to have options.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

More waffle, show me these assumptions and made up arguments then.

In one post ahardie has done more than you have and answered a question i posed as opposed to posting bait.


---------- Post added at 22:19 ---------- Previous post was at 22:17 ----------

Interesting indeed and quite disturbing if true. However as no other reports discuss Sky in connection with this company im hoping its just speculation as opposed to anything concrete.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Easy ... Post 251.

As I said don't post if you cannot debate properly or I shall see to it that you will not be posting at all.

You have yet again come into a thread with your stupid anti-VM / Pro-Sky agenda and its becoming ever so tiresome. :zzz:

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Hold on, in response to Stuart C's post where he claimed Sky were considering it in a guardian article, when in fact all it said was that other ISP's had been approaced, i said.

The you said:-

The came my response in 251:-

Your response was completely nonsensical, i.e. assume they are considering it and dump sky so you know what it feels like? I mean, what?

Then you claim im "dreaming up assumptions and making up arguements where they don't exist."

Finally I get the threat of a ban because the debate doesn't go your way.

How is that a debate mate or for that matter, how is that even a mature discussion on your part?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Think about what you posted when you first entered this thread - your usual think you know it all attitude and stupid one sided approach, i.e VM are doing this and it was according to you, another reason and that you think we should have learnt by now. Sorry but I do not think along same wave lengths you do, I do not go about singing and praising one single company as much as you do.

You are. I never said you should dump Sky to go to VM - You made that assumption. I asked would you be learning like the rest of us, if Sky was considering this. How you can interpet this as 'Dump Sky, go to Virgin I'll never know, but then again you do have a one sided agenda.

You seem to be under the illusion that I want the thread to go some 'way' I don't want it to go my way - But perhaps I just want it to be a sensible discussion and it was until you entered with your one sided crap and your beloved Sky cannot do anything wrong, in your eyes nonsense.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Note, no mention of Sky...

Stuart C is the one who brings it up.

And finally my reason for posting, where i even reiterate that im not saying move to Sky.

That's all im going to say Mick, you spin that how you want.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Yes he does and I am called Mick - not Stuart C. :rolleyes: :dozey:

You are the one who is doing the spinning to satisfy your own twisted and one sided agenda. As well as refusing to at least accept the fact that your beloved Sky, can possibly be considering such a scheme. So your attitude is, when you posted yesterday: 'when will people learn', you must obviously think you are in better position than anyone else because you are with your beloved Sky and Sky is your answer to everything. So if you don't mind, it is an attitude, I at least, can do without. :rolleyes:

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Mick I respect your position as a mod/admin, and I don't care about the in's and out of your dispute with TheBlueRaja, but do you not think that you both should return this thread to discussing the prospective ad deal?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

All of this Ssky rhetoric is very interesting, but becoming very off topic for this thread which is supposed to be about the implications of Phorm's system and it's impact on privacy. Can we return to that debate please?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Good idea.

I have emailed BBC Watchdog, pointing out that both BT and VM are planning (or pro-actively) doing this. Can I strongly encourage others to do same, so that the BBC will take up the course.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/consumer/tv_and...ct_index.shtml

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Now thats the most sensible thing i have read on this thread for a while! :tu:

Shame the mod who was involved did not look at it that way. :rolleyes:

Very good idea, i for one will be doing that. They say their is strength in numbers so the more that do the better!

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Um - I have been asking for a sensible discussion all along - so less of the blame the mod attitude when the person at fault is in the other direction. :dozey:

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

End of the day if user's of the mentioned company's accept this it would be folly for anyone to think their company won't follow the lead. This is a really bad idea on the part of VM and BT and they should think about how this is making their company's look right now because it isn't good. Reality is no matter what system phorm try and use most user's will not trust this company in anyway shape or form to abide by a damn thing it states.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The reason that VM, BT and Talk Talk, don't forget them, is discussing this is simple.

Profit, pounds, shillings and pence...simple as that.

Right or wrong, its capitalism at its best or worst depnding on your point of view.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Interesting also that you have almost blown a gasket when a company you don't subscribe to is going to implement this but when you are shown that SKY is considering it, you just hope it wont happen. If as you say "its a blatant breach of privacy and akin to building up a personal profile of somebody's interests, hobbies, wealth and habits." Shouldn't you be actively campaigning against Sky doing it.

If you had bothered to read the thread you would have seen that the privacy aspects of this are regularly audited by Ernst and Young anyway. So your statement is just scaremongering .

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

They may not make much but their churn has dropped through the floor - why would you drop the telly when you'd then have to go and buy that free BB for £15 a month?

I didn't get on with it at my house but I can see why it's a boon for them ;)

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

OK, but they didn't pay all that mmoney for easynet just to keep customers going to alternative suppliers.

That product will have to turn in a profit, targetted advertising could be the answer. :)

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Have you actually read the Ernst & Young so called "approval"? It's a complete red herring and not worth the electrons needed to download it.

Firstly they audit against USA accountancy standards. We are talking about a system the needs to meet the UK standards. There is no specific audit against the Data Protection Act, or other privacy rules.

Secondly the disclaimers used, make the "certification" worthless:The bold is my highlight of a statement that basically implies they've vetted it, but don't really know.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

On that, we can agree.
While, again, I agree with what you say, I can see two problems: 1) Many people don't live near enough an ADSL exchange for it to be viable for them to use ADSL (admittedly, a lot can get broadband via mobile, but this often comes with heavy restrictions). The second problem is what happens when/if a lot of ISPs use this system?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Therein lies the caveat that we all should be afraid of "error or fraud may occur and not be detected".

Earlier in this thread I mentioned that a number of friends and family have been defrauded out of thousands by online theft by partial identity theft. In the very few cases where somebody has been caught they have always been in a position of trust and able to view data which in itself is logical because without data they cannot commit identity crime. That falls under the definition of fraud and is not usually detected.

If data is never seen, scanned, collected or read then nobody can know what is contained within. If it is read but filtered then at some point pre-filter it is all there and that is where the risk of fraud is the greatest. Online fraud is unfortunately a fast growing criminal area and to such a degree that many I know within banking will not use the net for financial transactions. IMO any mass surveillance will not decrease risk and just creates new holes for data to leak from.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

If VM decide to press ahead with this idea i will use this as a way of foxing the system
http://tools.rosinstrument.com/cgi-proxy.htm
seems to work fine too.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Im making a list of clean ISP's so that if in the event that VM do go through with this ad scheme we as customers can vote with our feet.

Here are some ISP's that have been vocal about REJECTING the Phorm scheme

Aquiss - source

Zen Internet - source

NewNet - source


please add to this list if more are found

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well on your first point, It probably has nothing to do with what country's laws apply because according to post 102 Ernst and Young are checking whether the systems safeguard total anonymity. Obviously the laws of the UK also act as a safeguard. That being the case I still think it is scaremongering to say they are building personal profiles.

Your second point is more of a concern but it maybe that they (Ernst and Young) are only saying that they were not asked to check out that aspect of it. I'm not being blasé, I would just like clarification what that means.

I should add that I am against Virgin doing this but I think that claiming that it is a major breach of privacy is an exaggeration. If it was that bad then as you have already implied it would be against the law of the land.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

No one pays for information that can't be verified i know there are some dumb people about but not that many. So how do phorm validate this information to their customers i might have missed this mentioned but i don't see how they can without invading privacy to some degree or another. Being honest we shouldn't be needing to have this discussion because VM shouldn't be thinking of doing it.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Done!

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Does anyone know whether the VM business broadband package will be subjected to the same surveillance?

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Not read the thread - it's a bit BIG :Yikes:, but would this help.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Haha


If you had read the thread, the answer may well have been no.

---------- Post added at 09:29 ---------- Previous post was at 08:04 ----------

Latest Reg articlie.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...d_isp_targets/

A current Sky subscriber and Cableforum member, no names mentioned, may be internested in this little snippit.

As I have already said on two occasions in this thread, Sky's margin in its BB offering is very tight, and this could be a way of seeing profit from its offering.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Yes, it would.

Tor would hide information about what websites you were visiting from VM/Phorm. All they would be able to tell is that you are communicating with another Tor node.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Ouch!

I'll be keeping an eye on that - might be time to move on.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

What would be interesting is what Google thinks about this taking place.

I can see there lawyers getting involve if it even fear it could effect there add business like double click that they just spent billion's buying.

---------- Post added at 12:06 ---------- Previous post was at 12:01 ----------

Just thinking would using a service from the likes of OpenDNS bypast this SPYING business.

http://www.opendns.com/

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I can't see why google would have the ability to complain if an alternate ad system takes over. There are alternates that would similarly anyway from groups like yahoo, or indeed wherever. None of these advertisers can force a website to take it's content, and indeed that will be the same for Phrom, who may be able to scrutinise brwosing, but unless the visited websites take phorm rather than other content, they don't make any money.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

thanks to the
"By Anonymous Coward
Posted Wednesday 27th February 2008 17:07 GMT
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...2007/comments/

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/02/2.png I love the patents system. Could this be it? Names KENT THOMAS ERTUGRUL as inventor and 121Media as applicant. Published in Sep 2007.
"TARGETED CONTENT DELIVERY FOR NETWORKS"
"

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=E...2007108818&F=0

it would appear that it is indeed the patent, im wondering if its valid for the UK as its a software patent is it not?.

have a real hard read,and take it in, i just skipped over it quick and several things scream out.
http://v3.espacenet.com/textdes?DB=E...N=WO2007108818

"
...
[0014] As described herein, the collection of user behavior data may be facilitated by one or more service providers to enhance user experience. A service provider may include an internet service provider (ISP), cable provider, telephone provider, wireless provider, or other telecommunications provider.

The data collected may include, for example, the browsing behavior with regards to internet web pages requested by and/or delivered to the user's client device, wherein the data collected can be used to enable improved selection and delivery of content tailored specifically to the user.

The data collected may also include viewing behavior with regards to other programming such as television, radio or other programming provided via the service provider, such as the amount of time particular content is viewed, the type and/or frequency of content selected by the user, among other user behavior.

As one example, online services such as advertising, internet search, dating, blogging, social networking, and/or news can be varied in response to the past and/or present behavior of the user, thereby enabling the content to better address the user's personal interests and preferences.

Further, a network of members including service providers, publishers, content providers, and advertisers can be configured to enable sharing of information relating to the behavior of a plurality of users via one or more common protocols.

In this manner, a member of the network may submit user behavior information in a standard form that may be processed and disseminated to one or more members of the network.

The behavior information may include data indicative of content that may be selected by a specific user and/or content that is provided to the specific user.
...
"
another OC there has a good point too ontop of the DPA etc .

"
Contact the police if you're a BT customer

By Anonymous Coward
Posted Wednesday 27th February 2008 15:26 GMT
If BT have been intercepting details of your browsing habits then this may be a violation of RIPA http://www.statutelaw.gov.uk/content...tDocId=1757378
In particular sections 1(1) and 2(2):
1. Unlawful interception.
— (1) It shall be an offence for a person intentionally and without lawful authority to intercept, at any place in the United Kingdom, any communication in the course of its transmission by means of—
(a) a public postal service; or
(b) a public telecommunication system.
2. (2) For the purposes of this Act, but subject to the following provisions of this section, a person intercepts a communication in the course of its transmission by means of a telecommunication system if, and only if, he—
(a) so modifies or interferes with the system, or its operation,
(b) so monitors transmissions made by means of the system, or
(c) so monitors transmissions made by wireless telegraphy to or from apparatus comprised in the system,
as to make some or all of the contents of the communication available, while being transmitted, to a person other than the sender or intended recipient of the communication."

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

It's not clear in that article if Sky will adopt Phorm, they may well sit back and wait for one of the big players to implement it and guage the responses. I would imagine that they are already seeing the benefits of their migration of their email customers to Gmail, that is bound to bring in a few extra quid per subscriber per month.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...d_isp_targets/
"Broadband big boys waiting on data pimping

Smaller ISPs wouldn't touch Phorm with yours

By Chris Williams → More by this author
Published Friday 29th February 2008 09:02 GMT
Download free Lippis Report - Ready to reap the benefits of Unified Communications? Download free whitepaper - The Need for Vulnerability Management
Phorm, the advertising company that wants to pay your ISP to hand over information on which websites you visit, has convinced the UK's three largest providers to trust it, but regulators and the rest of the industry are less impressed.

<Edit Rob: removed - please do not cut and paste large chunks of material that is copyright from other sites>

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I noticed that a few people have suggested using the TrackMeNot Firefox extension. Well here is another that I've recently started using that might be of use to some people.

RefControl
"Control what gets sent as the HTTP Referer on a per-site basis. You create a list of sites, and the referrer that should be sent for each site. You can choose to send that referrer unconditionally or only for third-party requests. Additionally, you can specify the default behavior for any site not in the list."

Basically it stop websites viewing what link you have licked in order to arrive at their page. What this means is that if you should accidentally click on an dam advert, the subsequent product's site will at least not know how you came to be on their page. This makes it really hard for advertisers to collect marketing data to establish how well their campaign(s) are doing.

You can check to make sure that your reffer header is empty by going here for a Anontest test - https://www.jondos.de/en/anontest

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Where did i "blow a gasket"? I simply put Mick and Stuart C right.

Sky are waiting to see what happens and i'll be waiting to see what they do.

VM are far more along the line and should be chastised for what IS going to be "a blatant breach of privacy and akin to building up a personal profile of somebody's interests, hobbies, wealth and habits."

IF Sky go the same way, i'll be just as disappointed.

Run along now.

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

BTW None, i get
Download Error



---------- Post added at 14:30 ---------- Previous post was at 14:27 ----------

TBR ,did you read that patent URL i posted, that tells you how it works.

i just skiped over it so wont try to disect it, perhaps you can do that for the readers here?

---------- Post added at 14:54 ---------- Previous post was at 14:30 ----------

hmmm...

http://www.phorm.com/about/launch_agreement.php
"Press


Phorm (AIM: PHRM and PHRX), the advertising technology company, today announces exclusive agreements with UK internet service providers (ISPs) BT PLC, TalkTalk and Virgin Media Inc. Phorm's industry leading technology will enable the companies to offer a new online advertising platform, the Open Internet Exchange (OIX), and a free consumer internet feature, Webwise, which ensures fewer irrelevant adverts and additional protection against malicious websites.

OIX will create a new marketplace for online advertising, that is based on internet users' anonymous browsing activity and ensure consumers receive fewer irrelevant ads. It will also revolutionise current standards of online privacy and fully protect the identity of consumers. Phorm's privacy claims have been validated under best industry practices, both through an independent audit conducted by Ernst & Young (View report PDF) and a Privacy Impact Assessment undertaken by experts from Privacy International.

OIX is the first real-time online advertising platform to use fully anonymised ISP data streams. It operates by allowing market participants to define customer advertising "channels" - groupings of users demonstrating interest in specific product and service categories - then uses this information to serve relevant ads based on a user's browsing activity. This benefits advertisers, publishers and consumers alike and introduces a completely new level of effectiveness in online advertising.

The OIX is a marketplace serving campaigns on the most productive inventory for advertisers and helping online publishers increase the value of their websites. Phorm and ISPs will share the incremental revenue created by the efficiency of this new process.

Many leading publishers and advertising agencies have partnered with Phorm for the launch of OIX. They include; FT.com; iVillage; Universal McCann; MGM OMD and Unanimis.
Webwise will be offered free to customers of ISPs partnering with Phorm and will create a safer, more relevant internet. In addition to serving fewer irrelevant ads, Webwise gives greater protection from online fraud by warning users if they inadvertently browse fraudulent websites (sites that obtain sensitive information such as bank details - a practice known as phishing).

Kent Ertugrul, Chairman and Chief Executive of Phorm, said: "We are delighted to unveil OIX. This service will dramatically improve the effectiveness of advertising for online publishers and advertisers. In a world where all websites rely on advertising for their existence this offers the promise of better content for consumers. Meanwhile Webwise, the joint initiative sponsored by our ISP partners, will also benefit consumers by making internet browsing safer as well as more relevant. We are proud to be working with the UK's leading ISPs in this pioneering venture."

Webwise's anti-fraud measures have been welcomed by APACS, the UK payments association, which champions the fight against online banking fraud.
For Phorm Enquiries:
Kent Ertugrul (Chairman & Chief Executive) +44 20 7638 9571
Lynne Millar (Chief Financial Officer)

Citigate Dewe Rogerson +44 20 7638 9571
Simon Rigby
Justin Griffiths

Canaccord Adams Limited +44 20 7050 6500
(Nominated Adviser)
Mark Williams
Andrew Chubb
For ISP Enquiries:
BT
Adam Liversage +44 20 7356 5366

Talk Talk
Mark Schmid +44 20 7282 2834

Virgin Media
James Hill +44 20 7153 1559
About Phorm:
Phorm is an innovative technology company specialising in delivering behaviourally and contextually targeted advertising while preserving users' personal privacy and security.
Phorm's partners include leading Internet Service Providers (ISPs), Publishers, Ad Networks and Advertisers.
Phorm is a Delaware, US incorporated company, with offices in New York and London and Moscow. The Company was admitted to the AIM market of the London Stock Exchange in 2004 and has over 100 employees.
For more information, please visit: www.phorm.com "

---------- Post added at 14:55 ---------- Previous post was at 14:54 ----------

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b961adc0-d...nclick_check=1
Phorm leaps as big ISPs sign on

By Andrew Edgecliffe-Johnson, Media Editor
Published: February 14 2008 13:43 | Last updated: February 15 2008 03:19

Three of the UK’s largest internet service providers (ISPs) have signed up to a new service that is promising to give them them a cut of the fast-growing online advertising market for the first time.
Phorm, an Aim-listed advertising technology company, has struck agreements with BT, Carphone Warehouse’s TalkTalk broadband business and Virgin Media, which account for about 70 per cent of the UK broadband market, to use its online advertising platform.

Shares in Phorm surged 300p, or 10.3 per cent, to £32.13 on news of the agreements, giving the company a market capitalisation of almost £390m ($768m)
....
“This service will dramatically improve the effectiveness of advertising for online publishers and advertisers,” Mr Ertegrul said. “It is also a revolution in the online privacy debate.”
The group reported no revenues and a £16.3m pre-tax loss in its last interim results as it concentrated all its efforts on signing up ISPs to launch the technology.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

In fairness tbr way i read your posts was more fool us VM customers for being with VM when we could "go to another" which was not a well hidden reference to sky. Now we find out that sky is doing exactly the same thing you have had to alter your position a bit. Fact is this isn't a company specific matter no one comapny is better or worse then any other in this matter they will all do it if it makes them money and they think they can get away with it. Only concern in this for me is anyone is thinking of doing it i don't care about specific company's it's the fact that it is even being considered.