Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

good bye Vm, nice knowing you

i'm on the verge of saying this

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

ditto, and i can hear that echoed from others :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Any recommendations for a decent non-Phorm ISP who actually knows something about Linux?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I'm all for stopping peados however, i think this go way beyond.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

There's a list of Phorm-free isp's here - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...ewforum.php?11

Not sure if any of them speak Linux though.


My personnel top 3 out of those would be Aquiss, Be, Zen Internet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

As i pointed out early today. Be Unlimited have confirmed via email to me that they are NOT going to sign up to Phorm spyware. Thats my next ISP should VM go the wrong way as far as Opt in Opt Out goes.


Be member services <memberservices@beunlimited.co.uk>
to ++++

show details
09:40 (10 hours ago)

Dear +++++++++++++++

Thank you for contacting us. I would like to inform you that we are not intending to sign up with Phorm. Also in order to have our service you should have a working BT phone line.

If you have any further questions feel free to contact at 0808 234 8566.



Reply Forward Invite Be to Google Mail

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I think you are getting into the realms of fantasy there

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

What does Linux have to do with this? BB is TCP/IP not Linux or OSX or Vista.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Dont know if anyone has put this up, but i've come across a online petition.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Some ISPs, such as VM :rolleyes:, make it difficult to report faults with their BB, if you are running linux.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

If you search in http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...ripa/comments/ for Privacy International you'll see a very telling communication. Evidently PI are not officially endorsing Phorm at all and Phorm are abusing PI's name and reputation. To think that major ISPs are falling for this - it's utterly shameful.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I wonder if this was said to Woodward & Bernstein

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Hahah! You crack me up.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34500088) Such Technology already exists - how do you think they have busted previous paedophile internet rings?

Correct me if Im wrong, but they have only caught paedophiles due to either, someone taking computers in to get fixed or by paedophiles using their credit cards to buy and view the images.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Just signed this. I think someone should sticky this petition or add it as a non contrib thread. Definitely worth a try.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Hmm...

2 possibily useful bits of info at the start of the thread turned out to be naff:-

http://www.ico.gov.uk/ - turns out to be a non-functioning website

Tor - http://www.torproject.org/ - not available for my platform


Guess I just have to hope that VM pay attention to the fact that I do not want adverts targeted at me.

I would have no hesitation in giving them 1 hours notice to cancel my account and remove their equipment if they do not respect my wishes.

I have used the VM Contact Us form to make my views clear and am awaiting a response.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

thats odd as
http://www.ico.gov.uk/ESDWebPages/Search.asp?EC=1
works fine so its not a non-functioning website,mearly a bad page.

they probably messed up the database for the front page, perhaps you
should drop them an email pointing out the error so they can fix it.

as for Tor, what is your platform exactly?, if theres no ready compiled binary,just go and download the source trunk and compile your own version for your platform.
http://www.torproject.org/svn/trunk/

or go ask someone on their IRC channel how and were you might find a ready compiled one for your machine.
http://www.torproject.org/documentat....en#RunningTor

---------- Post added at 04:23 ---------- Previous post was at 03:54 ----------

no guessing or hoping required, just send the DPA notice as already said and wait the 14 days notice (or longer, i forget)before making your inquirys as to weather they have complyed (ring Ccare and see if you get though to the offshore personel etc).

for instance John makes an almost good enough generic letter you might use.
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...ripa/comments/
"
This should cover it

By John Edwards
Posted Tuesday 4th March 2008 17:14 GMT

Virgin Media Ltd
PO Box 333
Swansea SA7 9ZJ
4.3.08
Sir,
I forbid the collection of data concerning the use of my computer and its connections for any purpose whatever beyond that which is necessary for billing or monitoring for technical faults.

In particular I expressly forbid for passing any of my information to Phorm, (or any like organisation), for any purpose whatever.

This letter may be taken to over-ride any past or future conditions in your End User License Agreement.
Yours faithfully,"


and Alexander gives you several other options if you want that.
"The majority of customers are ok with it?

By Alexander Hanff
Posted Tuesday 4th March 2008 17:56 GMT

So they are quick to claim that once they know about the *cough* added security features *cough* of the system most of their customers are happy with this.

So my next questions are as follows:
1. Were the quizzed customers told that this "value added service" breaks the following laws:
a: RIPA
b: DPA
c: European Convention on Human Rights
d: Trespass of Chattels
e: Computer Misuse Act
...
"
and finally AC made the office chuckle
"Dont leave - Have fun

By Anonymous Coward
Posted Tuesday 4th March 2008 18:30 GMT
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/22.png I have issued a letter to my ISP withdrawing any permission for them to share my personal data with a 3rd party, or ship said data overseas.
I now have plans to have fun.

Each time I get a call from an indian call center a complaint will be raised with the data protection people.

It will be fun to take action at a european level once phorm is implimented.

If I leave and find another ISP all the furure fun will end. So I plan to fight from within an who knows become richer to boot."



well one hours notice is your choice , however that may incure a 30 days notice and perhaps charges, you could however go for breach of contract on VMs part if you were to take the reg storys and the official VM comments there and the Phorm site regarding their intent to bring this online etc.


is that one the VM website that asks for your VM personal data details in the open, as its http, not a secure https that Phorm say they wouldnt collect,track and process!

OC VM/BT etc wont worry, as most people cant even be bothered to cut and paste a letter and send it registered post to protect their property, perhaps people might this time though, who knows!

BTW how does a person join in Oct 2005 and yet make one single post today,
thats probably a record isnt it?. :welcome:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I joined in Jan 05 and made my first post the 2nd of this month LOL

I usually just lurk but this has really got my blood pressure up :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I've been reading this thread with interest since I saw the news break on the register and think broadband. I am a volunteer for a national charity and the people who use it's forum can be vulnerable, the Phorm "spying" deal is a real cause for concern and I feel it's something I must take a stand on.

The actions of VM show they have no consideration for customer privacy, and try and use the "oh it's safer" to those customers who probably wouldn't read forums and tech sites.

Thanks to everyone for the tips and mention of FF extensions that can help, I've been sending the register pages and links to this forum to everyone I know.

Keep up the great work :)

ISP Ad Partners NebuAd and Phorm Eye Overseas Expansions
 

Unbelievable! - http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3628633

there's another ad-company eying up UK ISP's as well now - NebuAd :S

I get the feeling that in the coming years finding an ISP that rejects these Ad-partner scumbags is gonna be like finding a needle in a haystack.

<rant>
Has this what it has come to now? Not content with being the most spied on country in the world via cameras, we now have to have our every move online tracked traced and profiled too!!!
</rant>

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Playing devils advocate for a minute...

We all know that the ISP market itself isn't very profitable on the carrier infrastructure alone. We also know that content markets are demanding greater bandwidth (e.g. BBC iPlayer) and greater reliability (e.g. VOIP) forcing ISPs to chew through what little profit there was in the first place.

Ignoring for a minute the fact that VM charge a premium rate compared to many ADSL ISPs at the moment, would the people (me included) against Phorm be prepared to pay a premium for a snoop-free service?

For me the answer is yes I would, but it looks like we're not going to be given the option.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

brundles: I suspect you may be playing into their hands by raising this point.
Pay not to be monitored? This immediately discriminates against those unable to afford the premium. The richer you are, the more private your business? It'll never work. The howls of derision would be deafening.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Why should we have to pay more just to have a spyware free service, something that the ISP is already supposed to be providing. :mad:

Those that accept this intrusion should be offered a significant incentive, or discount.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

devils advocate is always a good thing to be now and then however.

paying for a snoop free service: NO, its unlawful to snoop so they cant be allowed to profit from an unlawful act by supplying a lawful service at an extra cost.

how can the given UK ISP increase cash flow:
offer to sell/rent the end user more than one cable/DSL modem per account, VM dont allow that.

offer to sell/rent the end user some internal co-location space at their head end and connected buildings etc, VM dont do that.

offer the end user Multicast (tunnels) so as to grow Multicasting video streaming accross the entire network and the UK,hence saving masses of bandwidth for the taking, VM dont do that.

far more options to make more lawful profits, but as you might guess, Virgin Media dont do that....

---------- Post added at 12:54 ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 ----------

BTW that http://www.clickz.com is blocked by many online hosts files and i cant be bothered to unblock it just to read the http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3628633

whats the basic outline of that story you and Pieman posted ?.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Here's what i think.

Let VM offer this as a OPT IN system. Those that OPT IN have a reduction in the cost of there service. Those of us that value our privacy OPT OUT ans continue to pay what we are paying now. Those of use that OPT OUT should be given a guarantee that our data will NOT be sold to anyone at ALL.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

OK, here's my take on the situation. Apologies if this is wrong (particularly on the legal side - I am not a lawyer) as it is quite difficult to sort actual facts from panic..

Virgin and Talk Talk plan to trial this system.

BT have already trialled this system, yet deny they have. All three currently plan to introduce it.

The system itself, put basically, monitors people's browsing habits, and serves "relevant" ads to them based upon their browsing habits.

The system appears to require that users opt out. It is unknown if the system supports opt in, but the stuff posted by The Register (originally sourced from a BT presentation) appears to suggest it does.

The system requires a cookie be sent to prevent the adverts being sent. It seems the system can be configured either to terminate monitoring, or carry on and just stop serving ads.

The system replaces ads in websites that have opted in to the scheme.

Not entirely sure where the profile Phorm generates is stored. Some reports say it's in a cookie stored on your computer, but the fact that Phorm don't seem to be storing the data in a country covered by any UK, European or US law (despite being a US company) but have a data centre in China is suspicious.

If the profile is not stored locally, and there is more than one person using the Internet at a location, then the system will not be able to distinguish one user from another, so may serve inappropriate ads to other people using the Internet.

If the profile is stored locally in a cookie, then it may be possible that simply blocking that cookie would stop them being able to track you.

There are two Parliamentary acts that may be violated by this system. The Data Protection Act (1998) and the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (2001). The DPA requires that people giver permission if their data is processed in a country without an equivalent to the DPA. RIPA prevents monitoring of connections, or interception of data sent along those connections (as Phorm does) without either the permission of the customer (express or implied) or a warrant.

Now, the key point in both those violations is permission. The ISPs appear to be playing up the anti-phishing side of the system while barely mentioning the monitoring side (if at all), so people who are less technically savvy than us may consent to be monitored based on the anti phishing promises alone. This may offer some protection to the ISPs and Phorm. Not too sure if either the DPA or RIPA require that companies explicitly state what people are opting in to when the ask if you want to opt in.

It helps that (whether justified or not), people seem to percieve the ISPs as trustworthy, so may listen to them even if other organisations (such as Mozilla, Microsoft and Opera) mount massive campaigns stating that their browsers already do protect against Phishing. It also helps Phorm that the various authorities and companies have been hyping up the threat of identity fraud. Thus, people may be more likely to percieve the system as valuable protection rather than a threat, and more likely to opt in.

A lot of ISPs need to make more money than they do to maintain the investment needed to keep upgrading their networks, so unless at least a sizable percentage of us are willing to pay higher prices than we do, some sort of advertising (whatever form that takes) is, sadly, inevitable.

Although I have tried to avoid expressing my opinion, and just present my perception of what is happening, it may have creapt in.

The above doesn't really change my opinion. I still do not think people should be monitored (whether or not advertising is served or a profile is built up) without their expressed permission, and I think people should be fully informed before expressing that permission.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well that provides a pretty good starting point - and I agree that ideally they shouldn't be doing that, but just thought I'd throw it out as a suggestion. I must say I hadn't realised they had so many other ways to make their business more efficient - shame they haven't either!

Actually, dav - that's another point that perhaps someone on here can answer. Is the VM infrastructure up to seperating out business connections from residential in the Phorm system? I'd imagine that businesses would be deserting en-masse if they thought all their confidential, commercially sensitive data was going via Russia!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

the DPA requires permission for ANY processing taking place no matter were it is, including in the UK (hence the entrys in all the consumer T&Cs you look at).

and also as a seperate matter, it required permission to Export said personal data outside the UK (for the likes of the contracted offshore Ccare processing).

Peter Fairbrother this morning on the
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...ripa/comments/
makes the RIPA clear enough.

they NEED the permission of both the sending AND the receaving ends to intercept any such traffic lawfully.

"
Some RIPA points answered

By Peter Fairbrother
Posted Wednesday 5th March 2008 05:10 GMT
Re: opt-out, opt-in
Opting in would give BT "reasonable grounds to believe" that you have consented to the interception - but not opting-out would not, as failing to object to something is not the same as granting consent, and granting consent, or a reasonable belief that that has happened, is what is required under the Act.

And accepting a cookie you never see on your browser is not granting consent!

However, in any case the granting of consent must be done by _both_ parties if it's to make the interception lawful:

Re: What about the data being sent by websites to the customer?
_Both_ the sender _and_ the intended recipient have to agree for consensual interception to become lawful under S.3(1).

I raised this very point with Peter Sommer last week, so I doubt he got it wrong - but perhaps he thinks the data is only looked at if it comes from sites which have agreed to Phorm intercepting it, and only when the customer has also agreed - though that is contrary to the little we have been told of how Phorm operate...

Re: Difficult Call- Contradictory RIPA :
S.3(3) The "purposes of a telecommunications system" - and note, it's a system, not a service or an ISP - are defined in S.2(1) to be the "transmission of communications". There is no "out" here for storing or passing on anything more than traffic data.

S 1(6) is about private telecomms systems - BT is not a private telecomms system as far as RIPA goes. There is no contradiction.

I can't see anything which would or even could make the interception lawful.

in fact I can't see any grounds to suppose what they are doing could possibly be considered not to be interception, or could possibly be considered to be lawful interception - and unlawful interception, unlike most breaches of the Data Protection Acts, is a criminal offense punishable by up to 2 years in prison.

Which is where they belong. All of them. Though whether the wimpy Commissioner, or the DPP, will agree to a prosecution is another matter ..

BTW, if you want to break your contract with BT, Virgin etc - this is good grounds to do so. They are breaking the law. It's also good grounds to sue them .. :)
"

---------- Post added at 13:31 ---------- Previous post was at 13:20 ----------

VM, BT, and the other one would be MAD to include any business class BB contracts in this Phorm mess, and the commercial businness would NOT be leaveing before they took VM/BT to the courts and cleaned them out good and proper.

one point you might consider though, the ordinary consumers that have taken the business class VM package in the hopes to improve their lot, are in a bit of a mess as far as their T&Cs are concerned, as they are not covered by the same consumer contracts and safegards the ordinary users are.

the general rule for the UK consumer classes are they are to lazy to do much of anything to harm the UK ISPs in court etc,so we can do as we please type boadroom/upper management thinking..

---------- Post added at 14:50 ---------- Previous post was at 13:31 ----------

another BT/Phorm item from thereg again
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/05/bt_phorm_trial/
"BT targets 10,000 data pimping guinea pigs

Privacy policy being ripped up for Phorm

By Chris Williams → More by this author
Published Wednesday 5th March 2008 14:22 GMT

BT is preparing to test Phorm's advertising targeting technology on 10,000 of its customers this month, to gauge people's reaction to their web browsing being exploited for extra revenue.
The trials will begin mid-March and guinea pigs will be drawn from BT Retail's consumer broadband subscriber base. The firm believes customers will be impressed by what it calls a "safer, more relevant experience".

Phorm will read the websites the test subjects visit and use their contents to serve up targeted advertising when that computer is used to visit other popular sites, including The Guardian and MySpace.



BT sent us this statement about the imminent experiment:

The trial invitation will be presented through a special web page that will appear when those customers start a web browsing session. At this point, those customers invited can choose to switch on BT Webwise, choose not to take part, or to find out more information.

The www.bt.com/webwise site also contains detailed information on the service and a one-click option to switch the service off, which can be activated at any point during the trial. The BT Privacy Policy and BT Total Broadband Service Terms will be amended accordingly.

BT's current privacy policy states: "We do not use this [browsing] information to analyse your visits to any other websites." Once Phorm is deployed that is obviously no longer true.
...
"

---------- Post added at 15:03 ---------- Previous post was at 14:50 ----------

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...internet.phorm
Phorm fires privacy row for ISPs

Web users are up in arms over what they see as an invasion of privacy by a company that will track surfing patterns to serve targeted ads
Charles Arthur guardian.co.uk,
Wednesday March 5 2008Marc Burgess has the sound of a man trying to keep a pack at bay. "Our privacy claims have been audited by Ernst & Young; they have been through our system and seen that it does what we say it does," he says.

Privacy International have done a privacy impact assessment, and they will be doing spot checks. We have spoken to the Information Commissioner's Office. All of the privacy groups in the US, UK and Europe have been impressed by our approach."

The problem for the senior vice-president of technology at Phorm, an Aim-listed company which recently tied up a deal with the UK's three biggest internet service providers - BT, Virgin Media and TalkTalk, who between them have more than 10 million customers - is that it's not the privacy groups who he really needs to convince.

It's the millions of people whose services will be affected by Phorm's scheme, because some are up in arms over what they see as an invasion of their privacy through Phorm's intention to categorise all of their web-surfing habits in order to target online ads at them.
...
The data about what websites you tend to visit is then categorised to generate a profile.

When you then visit a page whose adverts are sourced from the Open internet Exchange (oix.net) - set up by Phorm - your browser will see adverts targeted to your profile.

(Adult, gambling, political, drugs and smoking-related adverts are not allowed.) Your browsing history is not retained; instead the profile for the cookie is refined as it "sees" more of your browsing.

Sites that join OIX are told they will get a better per-click payment than with other services. (Disclosure: The Guardian is one of a number of media websites that are signed up to OIX.)
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Another approach to this is to let the advertisers know in no uncertain terms that adverts served up by OIX/Phorm will be ignored and the advertised products/services avoided at all costs. If the people advertising through OIX can see that it actually has a negative impact on their quarry, they may think twice about getting into bed with Phorm in the first place. How do we find out who wants their ads serving by this method?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Here's the most telling part imo

ISP Ad Partners NebuAd and Phorm Eye Overseas Expansions
By Jack Marshall, The ClickZ Network, Mar 5, 2008

With NebuAd up and running in the U.S. and building its U.K. operation, Phorm may fancy a slice of the pie across the pond in the U.S. The company already has a New York address, and although Sarday did not explicitly state that Phorm is eyeing the U.S. market, he did tell ClickZ News that senior U.K. staff are currently in the U.S.

NebuAd's Goad said the firm is currently continuing discussions with a number of U.K. ISPs, and suggested he wasn't overly concerned about competition from Phorm. "I don't think it's a winner-takes-all market," he said. "Different ISPs have different needs and different business models. There's definitely space for more than one company."

article here - http://www.clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3628633

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

Almost 500 people have signed it since it was created yesterday. Imagine how many more will sign once this news reaches millions.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

And the now official links from VM

http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise.php

http://www.virginmedia.com/customers/webwise-faqs.php

Sorry if this has been posted already.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

A typically saying nothing statement from Virgin then :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

...and heres the part that will be of interest,

"We are currently at the early stages of working to deliver the Webwise solution and will be writing to you nearer the time to advise when the solution will be ‘switched on’ providing more detail of what this will mean to you."

The fact they are writing to customers to inform them of this 'new service' illustrates to me just how worried they are with this whole situation. That and the covering of their own asses, legally speaking. So they can say, look we told you about this Webwise service and you accepted it by not canceling your service etc etc.

Thankfully this will almost certainly mean a change to their T&C's which will enable us all to switch providers without penalty, if indeed you are still under contract.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I think that is almost a certainty as BT have admitted that policy changes will have to be made if their trial works.

Article in the reg already posted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

CF Article posted also.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

*nods* if you're not running Windows then they don't want to know in my experience.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

So if you call and complain about your XBox or PS3 or fridge not working when you plug it into their modem and that is the only web enabled device in the house how would that work!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Bye bye Virgin, i've been looking at a solid excuse to get rid of you for a long time!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Whilst I understand that people are unhappy about this proposal (I am too, and I voted against it in the poll), might it not be worth waiting to see if it is going to be implemented, then voting with our wallets.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Yes I could wait, and will vote with my wallet if it does get implemented in any way that might invade my browsing privacy.

But, I'd much prefer to be voicing my opinion now so that I avoid the hassle of having to move ISPs simply because some beancounter made a short sighted decision that could be avoided.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Agree wholeheartedly, Rob; just that some people appear to be jumping ship without seeing if it is implemented.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Having neither device I wouldn't know. Note that I also said "in my experience".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

foreverwar, Virgin Media wouldn't go to the trouble of creating a customer page just about Webwise if they were not intending to do this. From that page, its clearly obvious that they have every intension of doing it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Whilst I (mostly) agree with you, Mick, I hope against hope that the outcry raised by this and other sites may make them see sense.

If not, Be here I come......

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Whilst I agree that they wouldn't go to that trouble, I'm really not sure that this is a 100% done deal.

They have invited feedback on the page a virginmedia.feedback news group, and some very intelligent feedback is being given.

Reading some of it, I even wonder if some of the questions are coming from VM staff too who are Virgin customers as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well I phoned retentions earlier and stated and wanted it recording on my account notes that I do not want my browsing data tracked and sent to any other third party without my consent - I said I would consider such an act a breach of Data Protection and my own personal human rights to privacy and I would leave Virgin Media in an instant if they insist on this nonsense with Phorm.

The annoying factor is that I was told by the rep in retentions that the Phorm deal was mainly about protecting customers with anti-phishing protection. I had to correct him on that one though. I urge all customers not to fall for this line, if you feel compelled to ring the retentions department. Phorm is about targeted advertising, the anti-phishing protection is the 'sweetener' to keep us all quiet.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Yeh, that's the really annoying thing. That smacks of either blind trust in VM's marketing of this service, failure to communicate properly to staff what the system is actually meant to achieve.....or complete cluelessness on the reps part.

I will assume its the first two.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

As Mick said, they wouldn't go to the trouble of creating a customer page just about Webwise if they were not intending to do this, and certainly not to the point of writing to each and every customer.

From what has be written I’m utterly convinced that this will be rolled out whether there is an outcry or not. Sadly it’s looking like the only way this scheme will fail is if customers vote with their wallets to such extent that VM are forced to review their partnership with these scumbags. For now I too am hoping against hope that they see the light, though I won’t hold my breath on that score :P

Still, its encouraging to see them scrambling around trying to get some sort of press release out there ASAP to help downplay the significance of Phom/Webwise. Shows they are nervous about it and the massive amount of bad press its receiving.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

none. Maybe there will be a legal challenge to the system, I nearly choked on my chips when somebody pointed out that the so called privacy "audit" carried out by Earnst and Young may only apply in America.

I dunno, as annoyed as I am by this, something tells me that a few people in VM are going to wake up to the fact that this is not the way forward, or at least not the right time to be considering this.

EDIT:

Opting out. Just got this from BT @ http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/how-it-works.html

So then its an Opt-Out system based on a cookie. Each cookie must be applied to each broweser, in each individual user profile. Delete the cookie and you are automatically opted back in.

Looks like your opt-out request if this goes ahead Mick is not worth the electricity your note to retentions was recorded on. :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

i take it then that my idea of sending a cheap and cheerful registered post 'Data Protection Notice' removing any and all rights now and in the future to process or export your personal data outside the basic supply and billing of your BB account isnt anyones first choice to stop them cold?

you would rather run away to another ISP that may at some point take up one of many intercepting options in the future?.

what do you do then, as the first major battles already been allowed to happen with phorm BT and Virgin Media at the center.

if they can do it so will we type company response.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I sincerely hope your right, I really do. This is the biggest shake up in the ISP world since I don’t know when. The implications of such a system are far out reaching and scary to say the least.

What we don’t want is this system to go live and then have to wait a few years for it to go through the legal system by which time all of our data is ‘out there’ in the wild. So although there might be a legal challenge, it may at that time be too late.

Personally Id rather switch provider when this goes live and then sit on the side lines until it is resolved either one way or the other.

Still there’s always hope VM wake up and smell the coffee, though like many others I’ll be hedging my bets.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Its a spanking good idea......we still need to establish though if this Phorm system actually breaches the DPA, and the only person who can say so with any real authority is the Information Commisioner. He would then need to be challenged in court if he said the information passed to Phorm did not breach the DPA in its current form.

Who's got the cash to do that?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I hope you folks don't mind me posting this link, but I've been trying to alert as many folks as I can about the whole Phorm issue. After posting on a forum I'm a member of. the guy who runs it (BBC Journalist) gave me a link to this site, he seems to be getting some sort of dialogue with Phorm.

You can find the site here http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/blog/

I hope this helps as he has some really useful stuff on there.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Toto didnt you read the many posts regarding the Opt-in and Opt-out its all a big con,you just dont see it happening, as no matter what option you use, the ISPs are passing your data to the Phorm Kit and so In the DPA terms processing your data.

and while you dont remove the right to process they think they can do it lawfully by changing the T&C, they cant, but thats for a small claim court to tell them, AND/or the DP IC bringing a case, IF YOU write that letter to them.

at the very least read this
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...orm_documents/

and this
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03...ripa/comments/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Thanks Ravenheart.

---------- Post added at 21:03 ---------- Previous post was at 20:57 ----------

I have sir, and I stress again that if the data cannot be linked to a data subject, then surely its not a breach of the Data Protection Act.

Its obvious from the BT Faq that its an automatic opt in, with what amounts to in my opinion a very weak opt-out system.

I hope BT get a shoeing over this, perhaps then, and only then will Carphone Warehouse and VM sit up and listen.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

its VM, BT and the other one in this case, that you stop them passing the data to Phorm or any other 3rd party, its your property to do with as YOU please not the companys you allow to process it.

as for the unlikely event the IC allowing the breach, you can always use a simple small claim in the county court.

for info on that go read the many CAG bank charges/CRA threads, theres one there i cant remember right now were one of the users took the information commisioner to task about there being NO LAW for the credit reference to retain data for so long, infact they dont legally have a right to hold it ever.

that thread proves the IC can be win over with just phone calls and legal letters, you will know it when you read it as its massive and full of good CRA/IC advice.

and thats the basis we would use if needs be, its hard to get the CAG threads going now as it seems many of the old bank charges peeps are not there now, but we as in everyone reading this and theReg threads should be fine if its taken seriously and you dont just read but contribute.

just an idea you understand as im getting fed up of repeating things over and over, infact im bored with the whole net and computers right now as im posting here and everywere and getting very little insightful interesting replys or even good tech story leads etc.....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Am curious as to what the rep's reaction to this was, Mick. Did it actually educate them somewhat or could you tell that they really knew the truth and were just trying to side-step it with you?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

remember the search engine yahoo/MS browser IP tracking and the EU rules that say your IP is personal data so stop IP tracking, well VM are passing the IP in the clear to Phorm, and so processing your data ,THEN anoning it later....QED, covered by the DPA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I'm all for getting my dues in court if needs be, I even won a small victory over my mortgage company when I was in some financial trouble back in 2000.

But I would also hope that significant voices can be a force for good. Branding and image is very important to any company that is allowed to use the Virgin Name, I really hope, nothwithstanding small legal victories for us poor old punters, that VM inhale the smelling salts, and start to win the fight for the fans.

---------- Post added at 21:19 ---------- Previous post was at 21:15 ----------

The BT FAQ says that the IP address isn't passed to Webwise (Phorm), so the jury is still out as to whether VM will be passing IP data. No point in going to small claims courts if you can't get your basic evidence right. ;)

The system appears to be cookie based. A good cookie tracking system doesn't need IP information, only a unique reference number or some other non personal descriptor.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

BT Webwise technical trials to begin from mid-March 2008 - http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...art=0&tstart=0

BT users are having their 2p worth, and lets just say the response to Phorm is luke warm at best, with many questions and not so many answers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

:welcome:
why would we, if you and he are doing your bit to keep some form of control over your personal data all the better, perhaps you might inspire other non posters to pop in and start posting in the threads, after all the more the meryer as it were....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Really good find....there's a link in that article to the patent pending for the Phorm system. Lets just say that I am glad of NoScript in Firefox. ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well said. I have informed VM of my intention to cancel if they sell my data to this SPYWARE company. All i need now is the letter to confirm the change to terms and conditions and then i can give my 30 days :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Perhaps we have been too subtle all this time so for any VM person interested USE PHORM I CANCEL ALL MY SERVICES WITH VM IMMEDIATELY and if we all do that and more importantly if they call us on it do it i think they will rethink a lot quicker.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Ditto.

What ISP have you chosen? BE?


yup, agreed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

So is it not enabled yet because when I go on it to opt out it says webwise is not enabled by your ISP...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Me and you together :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Nice discovery question then to as how it works and how the hardware is integrated into the infrastructure?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I have indeed

BT ADSL broadband availability
You are connected to the Warrington telephone exchange.

ADSL is available in your area
Your exchange is also enabled for ADSL Max services

According to BT Wholesale, your address should be able to support a 4.5Mbps or greater ADSL connection via ADSL Max.

Standard ADSL RAG results:
You can receive 2Mbps ADSL
You can receive 1Mbps ADSL
You can receive 512Kbps ADSL
You can receive 256Kbps ADSL

You are approximately 1.53km from the exchange (straight line distance).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Good choice sir, they are my numero uno atm too, just so long as I don't start reading about a BE and Phorm partnership.

Think I can get their upto 24MB service too :O, so wont be missing VM's 'superduper' fiber too much then \o/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

But I see this as playing the system. Somehow their system has to have a way of getting my browsing data, being able to profile it, and then update a cookie on my machine. What does an IP address do ? , well other than the obvious network stuff it also is a way of identifying a machine. So they are using some form of number coding or clever system to be able to identify a machine without using an IP, the very fact they know what my machine is (and they must know this in order to be able to write back to the cookie) must mean that I am identifiable to them. Obviously the ability to write back to a cookie is nothing new, but when combined with the fact that they have my entire browsing data is very worrying for me at least.

I don't pretend to be clever enough to understand any of this, but I just think that what they are saying doesn't match up. On the one hand this is supposed to be a system that profiles an individuals browsing habits and serves them personalised adverts, yet on the other hand they are saying they have no idea who you are or what your doing, this seems like a complete contradiction to me, and I may be looking at this way to simplistically, but if they can send anything to my machine then they can identify me.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well here’s something interesting. Reading the comments here - http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/blog/p,297/#comments

Note comment 7 is a response from someone on the tech team at techteam@phorm.com

The part that interested me was this,
“Re the opt out, if you opt out — or switch the system off, it’s off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm”

So they say that once opted out that no data passes to Phorm. Interesting. Still don’t believe it, but interesting statement nevertheless.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

ISPreview has a new member who seems to think posting on the forums supporting this on behalf of his company will settle us down.

http://www.ispreview.co.uk/talk/show...73&postcount=5

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

We need some host files to block OIX-served ads with extreme prejudice, even before this deal either goes through or gets killed.

I intend throwing every possible block ar them, hostname, IP, script, whatever - I know it hurts the sites that depend on ad revenue, but maybe that will pressure them to consider alternative ad companies. Best thing to hear would be Phorm going bust!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

lol, wonder if they'll post here in this thread :O balls of steel needed methinks!


Can I get a hallelujah and a praise the lord \o/\o/\o/\o/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

It's interesting though that Phorm and it's ISP partners are starting to feel the pressure judging by these initial responses on forums, and ISPs like VM starting to put "information" on their sites.

I again though make it clear. 'm not interested in the "spin" reassurance responses that may emerge about this. I don't want it anywhere near my browsing. What I do want to receive is a categoric assurance from Virgin Media that, having exercised my right not to opt in, let alone opt out, there will be no passing of any of my browsing habits, in any form, to spyware companies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Funnily enough the same person responded to my questions, on of all places, a website for a labour councillor called Bob Piper

Link: http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

My question was:

"Would you care to explain how the 'Opt Out' works ? I suspect that by opt out what is really meant is that a machine will not be targeted with adverts. Can you really explain exactly how the opt out process works in a technical manner and not by just referencing the website you can go to to click 'opt out' as this explains nothing. Most importantly, if someone has decided to opt out, will any data what so ever be sent from the ISP network across to the Phorm network for any form of processing ?"

To which Techteam answered:

"When you opt out -- or switch the system off, it's off. 100%. No browsing data whatsoever is passed from the ISP to Phorm. We should be clear that the Phorm servers are located in the ISP's network and browsing data is not transmitted outside the ISP. Even if you are opted out websites will still show you ads (as they do now) but these will not be adverts from the OIX system and they will not be relevant to your browsing."

The bit about the Phorm server being located in the ISP network is interesting, it also raises the question of whether data still gets processed if you opt out. They may still be processing it from the Phorm servers in the ISP's network, just not passing this from the ISP network to the Phorm network. I'm just concerned they maybe playing with words here.

I for one would like to see them state that if you opt out, then it is off 100%. None of your data whatsoever is touched, processed, sniffed, manipulated, profiled by Phorm whether internal or external to your ISP. I am also concered that we will still only have their word on how things work, they wouldn't be the first company to bend the truth when it comes to things like this. So basically even if what they say regarding this turns out to be true, I'm still not happy with it and will still be going to another ISP that has nothing to do with Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I couldn't have said it any better :)

The mere fact that VM are very seriously toying and most likely going to rollout this grotesque scheme is enough for me to lose what little faith I had in them to begin with.

The way I feel right now is this, even if VM where to call this whole sorry thing off, I'm almost certain I'll switch ISP's. Just how can you ever trust a company that is so ready to lay in bed with a bunch of snakes. Trust is hard to earn and VM are pouring it away in buckets.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

dont forget to post your complaints and concerns regarding any part of your data property being shared by your ISP to this 3rd party Phorm company to the ICO
http://www.ico.gov.uk/complaints/data_protection.aspx
http://www.ico.gov.uk/upload/documen...lain_final.pdf

perhaps the IC will initiate a formal investigation if and when they receave your comments and learn of your concerns etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Ravenheart,

Thanks for posting. The information on the site you mentioned led to some interesting insights. The patent application appears to give a perspective far beyond what has been discussed on this forum and is potentially, if implemented, far more intrusive than anybody imagined.

Within the long format patent application the methodology appears to search as has been previously found out by search requests, url's visited and website content for keywords to profile for advertising purposes. Customers are allocated an anonymous number and whether they are served adverts is controlled by some proactive act they must take to stop them (opt-out). The nasty bit which will drive people absolutely mad is within a couple of paragraphs way down in the document.

They use the example of a BMW and state that whilst a user is changing from url to url ie. surfing that a car orientated advert can be placed during the transition. That is interfering with the surfing of a customer and injecting an advert between page changes which IMO has an irritation lifetime of seconds. In another paragraph they state that an ISP can benefit by injecting adverts for their own ISP to hopefully avoid churn if a customer has been spied upon looking at other ISP's sites.

I had wondered how either Phorm or an ISP could make much money out of this if they just relied on random surfing marrying up with an OIX.net signed website. It has been discussed and is fairly obvious that they could not super-impose ads on others sites so there was no logical way for making money. However if as the architecture will allow, Thorm becomes the mirror profiler then the injection of an advert to keep us amused whilst we wait for the next page of our choice to load isn't going to hurt anybody and may enhance our experience. Whether there is an actual injection or a re-route before routing via an OIX site advert which will probably have to be clicked on it makes sense because adverts that force fed will be seen by millions per day and without doubt several times and that would be worth a fortune to advertisers but probably thousands and thousands of lost customers to the ISP's.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The last thing I want is to have to wait for an ad page to display between refreshes of pages that I'm searching for. Virgin Media's super dooper zoom along 20meg broadband is painfully slow enough at times, without it having to find and load even more junk before I get to where I want.

Guardian Article Now Up
 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...ternet.privacy

If you though Phorm was bad already don't read this quote:

"But there was also one unexplored possibility about the technology, the ex-employee noted: "The [Phorm] platform clearly has some edge-of-network technologies involved. It would be entirely feasible for an ISP to allow customers to opt out - and subsequently throttle their service."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Interesting point. Hmm we'll put a cookie on your machine and we will call the cookie 192168001100 perhaps if there is another user on that machine we will call the cookie 1921680011001 and so on. Or perhaps we will be clever and call teh cookie 1001100861291 there see can't see how that could possibly be related to you now!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

However VM in my opinium will not be able to provide that as they have no idea what the full implications of this deal are. They Just see





This is where it all goes to Rat Poo

So VM which one is it ?

And then should you stay and say NO by using the OPT OUT they can then potentially do this

20 meg users does that ring any bells ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

the following comment can be read here - http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

so already people are trying to figure out ways of fighting of the Phorm, though as he says, "as privacy protection goes, this is a fig leaf."

still, it might be worth remembering that url for future use - http://www.planetsaturn.pwp.blueyond...phormation.xpi

Im staggered at the lengths we are going to have to go to in order to gain what should already be a given, OUR BLOODY PRIVACY!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

:clap::clap::clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I love this from another site.

http://www.bobpiper.co.uk/2008/03/theyve_got_phorm.php

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Political Penguin has updated his blog with a list of 50 questions he wants answered by the lovely Techteam from Phorm http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/ :)

Considering Phorm are blatantly lying about endorsement from Privacy International, why should we believe anything they respond with.

I certainly feel that although the campaign started small it is gaining ground and seems to have Phorm and the ISP's involved running around like headless chickens.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well this whole thing broke before any of them where ready for it, clearly they haven't had time to put the full marking spin into effect before releasing webwise into the open. Now its a case of damage limitation, but the cats out of the bag and the premise behind webwise is exposed.... greed, pure and simple. Selling its customers privacy down the river for financial gain, all under the guise of security.

Webwise was always gonna be a tough sell, only now its going to be a whole lot harder!

Phight the Phorm and take back your privacy!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Virgin Media are now trying to play this down by support staff saying they don't know what we are all on about. I was told that until I received a letter from Virgin saying they are going to apply this phorm then we can get intouch.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Retentions - 0800 052 0870 seemed to be aware of Phorm when i rang them the other day.

Hardly surprising, probably had so many customers ringing up complaining that they had to brief that department, albeit just a little bit. They certainly played it right down when I spoke to them about it. 'Honest guv, you aint got nothing to worry about.'

Thing is, you just cant polish a turd, no matter how hard you try.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:09 ----------

BBC - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm

About freakydeeky time.

Good old beeb, always the last to cover the story lol

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

This link was interesting would trust this style of advertsing as much as I trust Tiscalis TV adverts...


http://www.phorm.com/user_privacy/

Designed to trick the less experienced internet user into security..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I am not happy that the tone of this BBC article is "Phorm is pretty harmless really". I trust the BBC more than any other outlet on the web to both report the news accurately and investigate issues thoroughly, and they appear to have failed miserably on both counts here. No mention of Kent Erturgal's history in spyware, no mention of overseas servers, no mention of the fact that information will almost certainly still be gathered even if people "opt out" and a misleading headline that implies that Privacy International endorses the Phorm system, when in fact, at least in it's present form of "opt out", they expressly remain opposed to it. It's not even as if the BBC would profit from this system going ahead, because UK-resident users of their services don't get served adverts anyway, so what the hell is going on?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Does anyone think that the Electronic Frontier Foundation might be interested in this?

They have a European arm, but I can't find any reference to Phorm on their site. It looks as if it would be right up their alley.
I know nothing about this group, they may be a bunch of chancers with even bigger tin foil hats than most, but you never know.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

They are a legit organisation, formed by Mitch Kapoor, among others. If you don't know who Mitch Kapoor is, he wrote Lotus 123 (ancient spreadsheet) and created (and still runs) Mozilla.

For a brief history, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electro...ier_Foundation

Also, for a detailed account of their early history, and an early action they undertook, see the freeware ebook, the hacker crackdown http://www.gutenberg.org/etext/101 (excellent read if you are interested in the subject btw).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

My question to Phorm is...

Is the option available to Virgin Media to have this system as an explicit Opt-In?
If so, does this mean that those users who do not Opt-In will not have their web traffic examined or interfered with at all by any Phorm software or hardware? If there can be an assurance that there is a way for me to do nothing and still not have Phorm examine my browsing habits, then I may calm down a bit about this issue.




EDIT: Thanks Stuart.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Hi All,

I'm from the tech team at phorm and wanted to point you in the direction of a couple of articles that have come out that might help to clarify some of the issues that have come up on the boards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7280791.stm

You'll see that the beeb is also a little confused over the role Simon Davies (Director of Privacy Intl and MD of 80/20 Thinking) played in conducting our Privacy Impact Assessment which I have tried to clarify on another board, Political Penguin: http://www.politicalpenguin.org.uk/b...#comment-40910

and to be doubly doubly clear: Simon Davies as a privacy consultant conducted the PIA wearing his 80/20 hat and with his fellow colleague at the LSE.

You might be interested in the video piece on techcrunch today:
http://uk.techcrunch.com/2008/03/06/...ther-tracking/

No doubt it will raise as many questions as it answers. Mike (who started all the excellent debate in the first place) I'll drop you a line to see if you'd like to come in to see us or have a chat with our CEO or tech team.

Best wishes,
techteam (techteam@phorm.com)