Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have left a message on Simon's voicemail, so hopefully he will call back tonight or tomorrow.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 21:53 ---------- Previous post was at 21:43 ----------

It is currently on page 6 of most popular articles (need about 160 diggs to get it to page 1) in the technology section.

So we still need to muster up some more diggs. Once the article hit's page 1 of the technology section the "Digg Effect" should kick in and we will see the number of diggs rapidly increase to possibly make it onto the main Digg front page.

Having had an article reach Digg front page in the past I can tell you from experience it is an overwhelming effect. My internet connection was saturated for 2 days straight whilst diggers tried to access my blog (which was hosted at home).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The click item appears to be out.
Follow the link from :-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programme...ne/7375772.stm

Starts around 13.30, after the facebook stuff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I never have any luck with the BBC inline player so I will have to wait for the iPlayer version to come online. Can you give me a brief summary of the piece?

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have noticed a distinct change in Kent's attitude based on the last time he personally responded in the comments of one of The Register's Phorm Articles:

Home Office defends 'dangerously misleading' Phorm thumbs-up
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04...phorm_fipr_bt/

In the "Comments"


Suddenly we are no longer a handful of geeks an insignificant paranoid minority - we are the UK!


:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

never fear Alexander, use the direct url and VLC in linux :angel:
mms://wm-acl.bbc.co.uk/wms/news/media_acl/mps/fix/news/science_nature/
video/170000/bb/170455_16x9_bb.wmv

flipping long unbroken urls ;(

ill re-edit it after you get it and break it down to fit the page better in a minute

broken down to fit the page better, so any other readers wanting to use it cut and paste the whole line and re-asemble it to use...

care of Pasanonic #5312
http://tinyurl.com/6jejsq

but some hosts files block tinyurl.com etc due to bad links in the past, as mine does, so i leave both forms available as a choice....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Alexander. The piece was obviously heavily edited.

It started with a lot of stock phorm guff giving their view of how it worked.

As you predicted, they could not show much of the interview without showing a 'raging Kent' and unfortunately that's what they did. It was quite tame.

The interviewer asked you to shake hands at the end etc, and indicated he was all 'hot and flustered', but if you had not have told us about Kent's behaviour, I wouldn't have known why.

All in all it was very tame. Other people may have things to add.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks popper

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Click: K*nt looked as sincere and trustworthy as Bill Clinton with a cigar...hope you counted yr fingers after shaking hands.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Front Porch differs from Phorm in two important respects. First, their origins were as an honest ISP and not as a malware parasite. Second, they have kept a low profile (or so a Google search would indicate). That probably explains the lack of controversy to date.

Indeed it isn't clear exactly what their product does: does it simply look at IP addresses/domains, or does it rip the data envelopes open and carry out deep packet inspection? My view is that either way, it is wrong, but if it sticks to IP addresses and doesn't inspect data then we'd keep the campaign better focussed by sticking to those products which are more intrusive such as Phorm.

Notwithstanding that, I think there's a case for madasafish to answer: why is their implementation of Front Porch opt-out rather than opt-in?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well as BT acquired Madasafish in mid 2007 and Phorm claim to have an 'exclusive' deal with BT presumably FrontPorch got shown the door (ouch!) :redcard:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Please use this clickable link for that content popper if you want to edit the post.

http://tinyurl.com/6jejsq

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Been following this thread for sometime now, eventually I have got round to posting. Just wanted to say well done Alexander on the click interview, I honestly don't think I could have stayed calm sitting next to that Tw@, you done yourself proud mate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Watched the Click video. Good job I don't use Facebook or MySpace...

Again the BBC ran Phorm's stuff as standard and didn't say "Phorm claim" as any decent independent reporter would have done. Although they did get the point right about VM considering to go with Phorm rather than the erroneous tech article that said VM were going to do it and it would be opt-out.

The feature didn't really emphasise the point about websites being mirrored/copied/processed and didn't even try to discuss illegality.

Obviously heavily edited. Kent still lacks manners and politeness and was about as convincing as the Iraqi Information Minister.

I publish stuff online already - Phorm does nothing to enhance what I do. Damn sure it won't make it any more interesting. How can Kent claim that?

Here's a reminder for recent arrivals to the thread. Phorm first mentioned a network based opt-out at the public meeting and don't seem to have mentioned it since. Because they know it will kill their business model.

"The reality is that the public would like to use this service by default." - What complete cobblers! That's Mugabe thinking right there. Because people don't say "no" they are in fact saying "yes". Utter crap. And again Kent likes to try and drag the debate to Google rather than Phorm. Well Kent, someone I think very highly of works for Google and if she trusts them with her e-mail via a Gmail account then that's as good a recommendation as I will ever find.

Just for the record Kent, I'm not being bombarded with adverts today. More to the point I'm not bombarded with ANY adverts that I don't want. I choose which sites can serve me ads - sites I use and want to support.

There's only so much that can be fitted into a 5 minute slot. Nice job Alexander, you kept composed and cool. More than I might have.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Madasafish is now operated by Plusnet who have said they are having nothing to do with Phorm.

I've raised the issue on the Plusnet Community forums.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just watched the Click video with Kent & Alex.

Alex, I hope you gave your hand a good scrubbing afterwards!

Yuk I sincerely mean that, I really do. Would anybody even buy a brush off that man Kent if he came knocking your door?

The best advert for the anti-Phorm brigade is Kent himself. I mean that sincerely, I really do!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That would be the Plusnet that is also owned by BT of course...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmmm. The heavy editing sucked away most of the content that might fire the imagination of the layman. We know the truth of this interview because we have it first hand from Alexander but if I'd just watched that interview and hadn't been privvy to Alex's supplement, I'm not sure it would have held my attention. Obviously this is in no way a criticism of you Alexander; you conducted yourself very well indeed despite rude interruption and expressed (y)our view clearly. What I'm trying to say is that engaging those with less interest in the topic is very important. Their view matters to us because their cash matters to VM/Phorm and if the wider audience will only get heavily edited output, this technology could still nip in the back door. I know I repeat things and I do apologise for it, but although as a vocal minority we are achieving some success, we really do need more overt support (hence my pleas to lurkers).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander get a haircut you hippie, its hanging in your eyes for gods sake :p

Seriously though did anyone else notice that Kent couldnt make any form of eye contact?

I especialy liked the part regarding ponies, dont you think targeted ads regarding ponies will give the game away?
"well no because if your getting hundreds of ads and a couple happen to be ponies would she notice?"

WTF?

Overall impression i got was the guy was a filthy, lowlife, lying snake and thats without the benifit of a backstory.
What i wouldnt give for some unedited footage.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

the issue being OC that they are using the DPI interceptionkit to break RIPA, Phorm Like.....

OC it now seems logical that seeing as it appears MediaFish got way with it under the radar for so long, that might be the reason BT executives didnt give the 2006/7 trials a second though until the DPI Phorm came to light.

and again, it seem logical that PlusNet can indeed say they wount use Phorm..... as they have the other DPI kit already in place and potentially stealing your datastream all this time perhaps? :td:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex, I felt you did an absolutely fantastic job under extremely difficult circumstances in the Click video. Thanks for all your hard work and dedication.

Unfortunately, assertions like “the reality is that most people (making money out of pimping your data) want the system to be switched on by default” didn’t get challenged in the edited version.

My fear is that alarm bells may not go off when Joe Public views this. Hopefully, Kent’s contemptuous attitude towards users implying they needed Phorm to nanny them because they are too stupid to know how to switch IE7’s phishing protection on will go down very badly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is with sadness that I must withdraw from this discussion for a while. An impending bereavement grows ever nearer and the right place for me to be at this time is with my family.

I will try to stay in touch with things as and when I can. There's a written response expected from Neil Berkett that I will keep an eye out for.

To those people who are lurking, please register and join in. We've already achieved a lot against Phorm and today's announcement by VM is a big feather in the caps of everyone here.

There are battles to be won here - the battle to get VM to drop Phorm. VM's statement today is something very unusual. Companies looking to partner don't usually contradict each other in public press releases. VM is clearly having second (and maybe even third) thoughts about Phorm. If more people contribute here and let Neil Berkett (don't bother with customer services) know he's signed up with a real shyster and will lose reputation, customers and money then we can force home our advantage against their uncertainty.

The battle to get BT's sorry ass in court and Webwise declared illegal is one we can make a huge difference in. Spread the word, write to MPs, MEPs, Peers, people of influence in your local communities and make them aware of what Phorm is and what it stands for.

Until we meet again,

CJH

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Have dug as requested.

Have been following this thread for a while and many thanks to Alexander and others who are fighting this.
I've written to my MP (Mark Hunter, he was very supportive and concerned with privacy issues),
signed the no. 10 petition, and try to alert people as to what webwise/phorm actually is. I'm not a customer of BT, VM or TT but I do not want to see this allowed to take hold.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi some of those 'lurkers' are members but choose to not to necessarily log in.Some of us are logged in but choose to be invisible and some are just bots.
Then you will have the real lurkers who aren't ready to jump in just yet( some of whom may be spies for the opposition).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Our thoughts are with you and our thanks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Likewise.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just watched the Click inteview - well done Alexander!


I'd have required a stunt double for that handshake shot - I bet Kent had his fingers crossed behind his back so that it didn't count!

I'd have kept thinking about polonium-210 and how it got into someone else named Alexander who'd also upset Russian business men...

;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My condolences for you situation. My sincerest thanks for your efforts in this matter and my heartfelt wishes that we see you soon.
Go do what is important in life.

regards

Craig

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

care of R jones on betaBT
http://www.brandrepublic.com/DMDaily...datory-opt-in/

go educate the readers there....

Capt thanks for your time on this matter so far ,but as you say , your place is by your familys side in this time of need.

as already said, our thoughts are with you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Better get a disposable e-mail address first though. Anything you give to these vultures will be spam-fodder for the next millenium! :erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Huh, how did she get the job of DMA chairman without understanding the basics https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/05/22.gif
temporaryinbox.com [img]Download Failed (1)[/img]

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My thoughts are with you and your family at this time, I am sure you will return with more information but give yourself time to heal or help others in the family heal.


Alexander good job you could tell he was annoyed from his pose in the video infact if he could he would have been rocking back and forth shouting no no no it isnt like that. :) MPO anyway after his part rock before he butted in..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Capt thanks for your time on this matter so far, your place is with your family at this time of need.

Just watched the Click video good job Alexander you kept composed and cool. More than I would have.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for all your time and effort Capt. Your efforts on this matter have been greatly appreciated. Go be with your family and take care. Deepest sympathies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was trying to think of a simple way to explain the difference between Phorm and Google to web masters and less tech literate people...

Google:
Uses keywords from your page content to bring visitors to your web site.

Phorm:
Uses keywords from your page content to draw visitors to someone else's web site.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Interim answer from Plusnet:

Source: http://community.plus.net/forum/inde...html#msg517872

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just reading about Labour's dreadful result in the local elections so far, forecast to be their worst defeat in 40 years and placing them 3rd (yes even Lib Dems have done better than them) place nationally.

Now I know Labour have made a lot of mistakes and continually lied to the public, continually increased taxes and stealth taxes, increased the cost of living and shown little regard for issues such as Data Protection, Bank Charges, War on Iraq etc., but it is safe to say the electorate now have them by the balls.

Every single letter you send to a Labour MP from now on, make sure you include a little footnote regarding the local elections and making it clear to them if you are not happy with their response you will be voting for the opposition in the generals next year.

Brown's pants must be erm...well brown this morning. Must be scary to have the most powerful job in the country whilst at the same time having the least secure :)

Labour Party = Epic Fail! (and yes I voted for them in the 97 generals)

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not sure if someone has posted this, but Virgin Media appear to be distancing themselves (slightly) from Phorm..

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...rm_misleading/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It was the talk of the day yesterday :)

I think investors are too tied up in the local elections to be doing much this morning, I expect we will see lots of action on the markets this afternoon.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alex,

Well done in the "Click" program.

There is no way that I have the confidence, courage or fortitude to go face to face on national TV, but there was one point he made that would have been a Godsend to my line of arguement.

Sites know and register IP's that visit. The custodian of the identity behind that IP is our ISP and we trust them to only release our true identity under legally appropriate demands, supported with a court order. ISP's are our gateway keepers and are in a position where we place in them a very high level of trust.

Although the anonymity arguement, with Phorm, tries to assuage the fear of loss of trust, it is the principle that the ISP's will sell our data for thirty pieces of silver that IMO makes them untrustworthy. I suspect that Phorm is the beginning of a slippery slope of exploitation and if the ISP's are to retain integrity they must reject exploitation before it begins.

If it's of interest..... years ago many ISP's were temporarily black-listed as they were open to "spam relays". That issue was resolved very quickly because ISP's could have been destroyed. The modern internet is fairly useless without major search engines and it would\could be more than interesting if "Google" et al banned IP blocks from data miners like Phorm. We tolerate what Google does because we need their service but we do not need Phorm and Google presumably do not need a parasite feeding off of them. Search engines block the parasitic IP's and problem solved in the blink of an eye.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

International TV hehehe Click is on the BBC World network. To be honest I was nervous for the days leading up to the interview but I wasn't when I arrived, the BBC team were easy to get along with.

The interview was more of a frustration than a worry given that Kent seems to have a problem with running his mouth and insisted on rudely interrupting everything I tried to say. But it seems he is our strongest asset in our anti-phorm fight so I am not that concerned. He should leave the PR to the expensive PR teams he has hired, he is doing more damage to his cause than good.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While I don't think his PR minions did him any good at all (quite the reverse in fact), I do agree that he's his own worst publicity, every time I see him on camera I can barely restrain myself from shouting foul imprecations at the screen. I'm a fairly volatile person (especially when it comes to shouting at screens), so I expect most people will have a less extreme reaction, but I imagine it will still be there.

That drawling, patronising, dismissive, "I'm so much more in the know than you, peon" attitude may go down a storm in the US, but in the UK, not so much.

Good work on the interview Alexander, I'd love to see the whole thing, that interviewer chap looked like he was going to faint at the end.

I'd have to watch it again, and I can't just now (because I have to go out and deal with the fact that I have accidentally melted my bank card into an interesting shape) but I think there is a moment in the whole pony adverts section where KE disses his own business model while trying to suggest that pony leakage is likely to be minimal. Doesn't he imply (in fact, I think he actually says it) that in fact the ads won't be all that relevant (as many of us have suspected all along) as an explanation of why pony confidentiality will be maintained?

I kind of missed it, because I was full of Kent inspired bile, and he was talking over the interviewer, displaying the cultured manners with which we have come to associate him, but I'm sure it's there.

Possibly be worth doing a transcript, if I'm not imaging it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sort of off topic... Network Solutions have been hi-jacking peoples websites, using broken links, inactive pages etc:

Snippet
Full story: http://www.webpronews.com/topnews/20...er-controversy

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Can someone ask on the Virgin Media feedback newsgroup... I'm an exVirgin these days...

If Phorm has been tested internally by VM then

a) What content was used to test it, and was that content drawn from the web, directly or indirectly? Who's content was used?

b) If it was purely internal, why does this Webwise site contain a Javascript which references Virgin Media users...

http://www.webwise.com/script/webwise.js

Code:

---

                else if (hostname.match(/^(.+\.)?virginmedia.com$/)) {
                        userType = 'Virgin User';
                        createCookie(userTypeCookieName, userType, userTypeCookieDuration);
                }

---

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That is an excellent way to discribe it

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hmm if not quite a smoking gun certainly an indication that VMs intent was a bit more developed than it is being touted as today. ;)

What about the script - just something to 'tailor' the spin would you say?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It could be... But if you have no commitment to implement, why would you as a software supplier write code to adapt your product to suit Virgin's end users? Particularly on a machine external to Virgins network?

And what purpose would an internal test serve if it was not conducted on a substantial volume of web content from a variety of sources... ie drawn from the internet directly or indirectly. If I own that content and I deny you the right to process it in this way, then I'm not going to be a happy bunny if it is the data you use to test your spyware.

I believe, if only the Police/Home Office would investigate VM, they'd find more evidence. For end users its near impossible; everything is circumstantial without server side data. With Police powers VM offices could be raided.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Spin? Did anyone see this post on El Reg:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05...ents/#c_214160

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes as you say there are many unanswered questions. When BT did its 2006 trial the product was obviously different to now - witness the javascript injections. Did they spend the last 2 years on development - that's a long time. And they are still tweaking around how they mangle cookies and hastily how to have a non-cookie based opt in/out. My guess is that they started with their spyware ad-serving infrastructure and tried to mate it with DPI and the layer 7 switch much later. And maybe what they are pushing now is actually a stripped down version of the 2006 product - after all it is apparently only a subset of what is in the patent.

So what exactly were VM playing with 'in the lab.'?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just spoken to a friend who is a wizard at scripting he said it looks fine legal coding but is scarey as it misses the else so if it doesnt match any rule it does nothing.

cookie lasts 24days which is long time it checks which internet you are using if you are on Bt then it checks to see if you are bt.com then adds the cookie same for VM if you are on VM then it adds cookie for VM will be same for TalkTalk if we had anyone who could visit it and copy and paste their findings.
When I visit it I get.
It sees I am on BT but not BT.com so does nothing

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How about this one (taken from the original article on El Reg)

"The company's business model revolves around distributing its PageSense technology to as many users as possible and showing users as many advertisements as possible, without causing negative reaction, to maximise response. "

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If only that were true, I'd even consider opting in :D.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've always found it subtly ironic that their strapline should be

"The Phorm Privacy Revolution"

Did they really mean to start a revolution?

They've certainly provoked a rebellion.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Definitive response from Plusnet re Madasafish use of Front Porch:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My bad. Sincere apols, shan't happen again. :dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

IE7 makes a big deal about phising protection and how to switch it on or off on first install. Not sure how that works on a computer with it pre-installed but I imagine it asks.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

more at the reg

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/05/02/phorm_logo/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First reported here a few days ago, I believe

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK News Time.

The Video from the PIA Public Meeting
I have spoken to Simon today on the phone and he has explained that Phorm are the responsible party with regards the video. The video was arranged and paid for by Phorm and 80/20 Thinking were not involved in that aspect of the event. He has promised to get someone at Phorm on the phone in the next hour to get a definitive statement as to what is going on. He also apologises to everyone as he feels he should have been less ambiguous on the Event notice with regards to who was responsible for the video. I will be posting an official statement either from Simon or from Phorm before the end of the day.

The Final PIA Report
Simon has been waiting on some information from ISPs in order to complete the report. He has assured me that his intention is to sign off on the report within the next week.

I will be talking to Simon again later this afternoon/early evening, so I will make sure I keep you all updated.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks Alexander, I am not suprised that the video is on phorm hands you can be sure it will never see daylight.. The publish and be damned was all Kent bravardo talk that came back and bit his backside.. We must have come over on the tape much better and more organised than he thought we would be. Hope simon can see he is just a pawn in Kents game for total domination of the internet to gain the power the pcs can vent on his enemies.. He knows how to use the force of the web for bad but needs enough PC's in the net to give it enough clout to do damage. Well that is MPO since pc's in the UK are worth £100 to websites that infect them with a trojen..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well that's a shock isn't it? (NOT!!!) Abandon all hope of unedited content my friends!

I would say Abandon all hope, full stop! ...but for the fact that Alexander is doing such a good job.

Can't wait to see the Click vid :)

Hank

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I just hate when I let my optimism get the better of my paranoia and it turns out that the paranoia was correct all along. That explains everything, and confirms the speculation of various of the posters here w/r/t delaying tactics.

:(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi everyone,

first, sincere apologies for my recent absence from the forums. This has been a week from hell, traveling extensively and dealing with other deadlines.

Many thanks again to Alexander, who, as alwaysm has been a star.

Just to reiterate what Alexander reported, 80/20 had no role in recording the public meeting. Our job was simply to organise the venue and speakers. I'm afraid I can't tell you any more about the video or any schedule for its release or otherwise. Right at the moment our key issue is securing information from the ISP's so we can complete the PIA.

We do need to have the PIA finalised soon. We've had some extremely valuable input from so many people and we continue to receive this input. My hope is that we can bring this part of the process to a conclusion fairly promptly so everyone can consider how to move forward.

Best wishes

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It is important never to allow emotion to cloud our objectivity so I don't think you were wrong to be optimistic. Granted, on this occasion there do appear to be concerns and I am as concerned about it as all of you, especially given that the public have not seen the questions and answers panel yet.

Of course there is still a chance the video will be released.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 14:49 ---------- Previous post was at 14:48 ----------

Thanks for the update Simon.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With the latest info re the video footage I think we have even more reason to be grateful to captjamie for recording all that he did. Also grateful to Simon for the much needed clarification and update.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Simon welcome back knowing the ISPs and how they tend to rush to respond all I can suggest is don't book any holidays..

:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

But I heard the interesting bit came at the end, the bit where Kent aparently had a face-off with Charles Arthur, Kent maintaining that The Guardian did not drop Phorm (so I'm told by a friend who visited).

Why oh why did Phorm maintain control of the video footage. I really thought and believed 80/20 were getting pressurized into witholding because it doesn't take 2 1/2 weeks to mix 2 camera angles.

Obviously this is a good strategy from Phorm because by now we've all been waiting so long that no-one really cares. The journos have written their piece and as a few posters on Badphorm claim Emma Sanderson and co are just waiting for the fuss to die down (although a few interesting posts on iii and badphorm claiming technical troubles too at BT)...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon, thanks for the clarification.

Would you still describe Kent's attidude as 'publish and be damned'?

I think if it was known beforehand that Phorm were doing the video, a lot more people would have taken their own cam's.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Post no 3348

Sorry Simon but when did this change to...


"You may have seen that phorm are filming the whole event for the Web. Edited to suit themselves"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Having been assured a response by the end of the week from BT, I've just sent the following

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I feel Simon is also being used by the Phorm phenomina to help them gain reputation they haven't earned.

I do hope all will end up sorted out and the true colours of the phorm management highlighted for all to see.

There has been a lot of manipulation of words mainly from the phorm camp and phorm investers who I feel sorry for as they have the ost to lose if cases do go to court.

MPO is do not conphorm to phorm and let the ISPs and phorm be damned

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I couldn't agree more.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon, you appear to be getting messed around by the clients you represent. Sometimes in business the wisest thing to do is to resign a client. This is often hard, because you can see the revenue being lost etc (particularly when just setting out). I've had to do it in the past, and I feel you really should be doing this now. It can hurt - but in the long run it can be beneficial.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No offence intended jca111 but I don't really think we are in a position to suggest how Simon runs his company. Plus he already made a clear statement on how they make a judgement on whether or not to drop a client and under what circumstances that could happen.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't see why we can't. We are trying to tell BT, VM and Phorm how to do their business. We are asking BT and VM to drop Phorm, so I dont see why we cannot do the same for 80/20 thinking. The more companies that distance themselves from Phorm the better as far as I am concerned.

One of the arguments for VM distancing themselves from Phorm is to do with reputation. Surely this also apples to 80/20?

Whether 80/20 want to keep phorm or not is up to them, but i see no difference with the tarnished reputations than that of VM.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a difference between asking a company you have a contract with not to fiddle with your data or service in illegal and immoral ways and telling Simon to drop a client (who you have no contract with). I am not trying to start an argument, I just think people get a little emotional about the 80/20 Thinking - Phorm relationship. That is fine, I appreciate people are concerned about the entire issue but it displaces focus from the real issue which is the Phorm technology and the ISPs plans to deploy it.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't agree one bit with your statement Alex, you voice your opinion and others voice theirs. Who are you to criticise others for speaking their mind?

However it may be worth pointing out the benefits of keeping Simon and 80/20 on side in the debate as a go-between. 80/20 have a unique relationship with Phorm, and they listen to us on the forums too. A counter argument to the argument 80/20 should drop their client.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I agree with Alexander's assessment. And I made it clear many times that one way or the other we will see this process through to the end. It's the right thing to do, and it's entirely appropriate to our role.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm afraid I just don't agree! I love what your doing, I really do - but we obviously just don't see eye-to-eye on this one. Sorry Alex.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have to agree with Alexander here we can think what we like and when it comes to if phorm goes live what you will do personally yourself for your data I moved ISPs yes it was costly to put a BT line in to move. I will be tied to an 18month phone line contract but I am where phorm cannot get to my data so it was worth every penny.

It is up to Simon and his conscience that can only decide his path with phorm after all if he makes many believe this is good and end of the day my theory is correct and they do use everyone’s internet connections and PC’s for immoral, illegal acts then it is all those who convinced people it was safe that carry the can.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's fine, the world would be boring if we all agreed with each other all of the time and like I said I am not trying to start and argument or offend anyone.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 16:18 ---------- Previous post was at 16:13 ----------

As I have said in the past I would rather a company with a highly respected board in the realms of Privacy do the Phorm PIA than some start-up just out to make a quick buck off the new ICO advisement on PIAs. That's just my opinion and I appreciate other's might think differently.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Me neither - so big hugs all round :hugs:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hehehe

:hugs:

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

found this

http://www.trustguide.org.uk/Trustgu...l%20Report.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can see where you are coming from but you also have to see where we are coming from.

Kent has a bad reputation he earned this reputation and I personally had to remove one of his rootkits from my sons PC. MPO no computer of mine will come into contact with his equipment hence I moved. I personally wouldn't stay with BT, VM or Talktalk if this was released.

Listening to him on click and the attitude he displayed didn't make me change my views. The contempt was visible for the internet users, to him we are not people with a mind or brain we are a number to be milked dry like a cow..

Infect he did say something which if true makes my theory more relevant when the pony theory was used for advert and wife sharing pc. Kent said a few pony adverts amongst a lot of irrelevant ones wouldn't stand out...

So ok why are they forcing phorm down our throats since the adverts are irrelevant not targeted as we are led to believe..

The longer this goes on the more inaccuracies are noticed in what is said and what is supposed to happen. If the British government do not bring to justice those guilty of using live connections with a company like phorm, while they had no data protection licence and no control over the scripting or handling of the machines in use the better for all concerned.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With reference to people asking 80/20 to drop Phorm - even at this stage where I've lost my job and moved on, I would still probably work for BT again if they (for example) asked me to come back and help them design this platform so that it was as compliant with the law (assuming that's possible).

Even though I dropped them in it, I did it for (what I believe to be) the right reasons. Those same reasons would mean I would feel obligated to go back and help them fix their mess (on everyone's behalf).

Does that make sense to you?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes it makes sense but if those people feel strongly enough about not being linked into equipment Kent has a finger in move to other ISPs the main ones will lose the interest of Kent he is only after large customer base, a numbers game hence why I think a hiden trojen to use the customers PC's once it is live.
Trust small word has a lot to answer I would not give anyone a second chance if they still show old traits and Kent does. The fact he has tried hard to hide the past by no mention at all in his CV is the first warning sign.
Respect this comes from what people have done in the past Kent has none in my eyes since his past is not respectable. VM had respect once but this has slipped away with the length of silence over phorm.

I do still have trust and respect in Simon from 80/20 thinking I also pray he sees the light that phorm could be the trojen horse to conquer all...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yep

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Makes perfect sense to me.
In the same manner that I enjoy seeing an upturn in the share price every now and again as it invariably allows for some margined day trades when the price again drops with every bombshell.
I might despise this phorm/webwise business model and have nothing to do with it but I'd not expect anyone here to object if I decided to make a little money every time some idiot comes along and makes large buys in a bid to bolster the price and inevitably the shorters jump in gleefully waiting for that drop.

I've said all along that targeted advertising will come. It is as sure as your granny could suck eggs. It might not happen with phorm and it certainly won't happen with the current tech proposed but it will happen. This sector is the fastest growing market on the planet and it is moving into a tech area that is still the only market that could pay off its long term debt and still be in a position financially to weather the upcoming ( and in some areas current ) financial downturn and lack of investor confidence.

We have to accept that it is going to come, The reality is that service provision in the UK is not profitable ( hence we have seen all those small start-ups come with so much fervour and go with not so much as a whimper )
All we can do is hope that our ISPs listen to our concerns and implement this in a way that is open, transparent, legal and profitable to all parties. In that I mean that we the consumer benefit from better service and products as a direct result of the ISP making better profit plus the content providers making profit too.

I reiterate though that this current proposal by Phorm is a non-starter and if the PIA says anything different I expect I shall be the first to cry foul. I especially will be getting my ICO PIA handbook out and requiring answers to questions regarding the framework of the PIA, the initial screening process and especially asking to see that all ICO criteria for a full scale ( which is required seeing as this is a high risk privacy area ) PIA were rigorously adhered to. ( something I doubt as I have seen no mention of any polling of the people most affected by this. i.e. Us, the ISP consumers.

I certainly feel that the stakeholder analysis criteria will not have been fully met.

regards

Craig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I fear you are right Craig. Due to advertising the mass-market Internet will become as unusable as US teresstrial TV is unwatchable. Inevitably cheap and poor will oust quality. Which is maybe why the end of 'net neutrality' may not be such a bad thing after all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The chance of this is zero the ones that will benefit from this is the shareholders of VM and the CEO with his large bonus

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The reason the ISP's are not profitable is because for years the have concentrated purely on increasing customer numbers at the expense of all else. Get the numbers and the profits will come later.

They need to think of a better way of making profits than deploying something like Phorm. It's not inevitable that targetted ads will come. In fact it's fairly simple for the Government to ensure it doesn't, so start kicking now, when they are on the floor.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You see I really don't mind advertising on the net. I don't see any of it anyway. I and others can do more to educate the average user to ensure that he sees less advertising if he chooses ( I've yet to test IE8 yet but it is sat here waiting for install, and I've used FF3 a little but until there are release candidates I won't do into how the consumer can use these products in a manner that strips all of the bits that are intrusive or irrelevant )
Adverts are going to happen and people like me are going to ensure we never see them.
All I ask is that my ISP operate in a manner that is moral and legal when handling my data and don't fall foul of interception of communication laws.

Actually, just thinking about it, I don't understand why the ISPs need Phorm. I know that NTL manage all my data and I'd be much happier for them to use that data ( legally ) to create anonymous data profiles so that their advertising could be made more relevant if it meant that they can profit and I can get my 100mbit connection back at last without having to re-mortgage.

Phorm just seem to me to be a sleazy middle-man with a very murky past. Cut them out and I might be willing to contemplate this future with a better attitude.

Regards

Craig

---------- Post added at 17:27 ---------- Previous post was at 17:23 ----------


I disagree. I think it is inevitable that targeted ads will come ( as they already do on TV )
I don't actually have a problem with that ( as said above ). There just has to be a legal and acceptable ( to all parties ) way of doing it.

Advertising is the biggest industry in the world, one of few still growing and targeting your customer precisely with items relevant to him is the number 1 factor in being a success. It's not even something to be scared of if we as consumers are given a little more respect than has previously happened.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Isp's could pipe ads to you if they wanted to now irespective of phorm, the whole concept of being profiled is really flawed you should not profile anything i do as an individual or a family without my express yes and sign on the dotted line.

Claims for the random number generated in phorm are just what they say they are claims, no such thing as a random number if you were that random how would the relevant advertising be relevant?, they can match your webwise id to you as a customer even though they say they dont by simply matching it to your name address or account number which is what the isp will share with phorm.

Does the old 121media project people on paper not sound vaguelly familiar with what phorm/webwise are doing atm?

Lots of guests still viewing this thread maybe kent will grace us one day :) who knows someone might be doing a investigative big show report about this subject ;).

p.s still waiting for my reply to questions vm time is ticking ;).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes well at the moment thanks to Safariblocker I also seldom see ads or popups but I regard that as a temporary minor victory but inevitably some new form of ad will come along that we will struggle to manage. Already for example, when browsing via 'digg' I often get so fed up with simple articles being spread over several web pages (so they can fit more ads in) that I just stop reading them. The amount of advertising around at the moment is just about manageable. It was the animated Flash movies and shouting out 'smilies' that drove me to the ad blocker solution, but what will come next? For example, with layer 7 interception, even without phorm, it would be easy to inject an ad-plastered 'page loading' page before your web page was retrieved. Or even periodic ad breaks forcing you to page through several ad pages before resuming browsing. Unless we are prepared to pay a realistic amount for a quality broadband service this creeping death by advertising seems inevitable. The ISPs see content providers making big bucks and want a slice.

Just a thought, we have all tended to focus on phorm's analysis and profiling, but it is the ISPs abuse of our data stream that we need to be fighting. /RANT :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If targetted advertising is inevitable then so be it... As long as it doesn't involve connection interception...

Then at least I will be given a fighting chance to avoid it with, if neccessary, third party filtering software...

I want to retain the choice as to whether or not I use browser related add ins and enhancemments.

"Obligatory" just won't do I'm afraid!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

My thoughts are with The Captain at this time.

As to bringing the average end user online and making them aware, how about pushing the word "webspy" along with "webwise", by association?

Simple, I know, but the beat ideas often are.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We already pay way way over the odds compared to other eu countries why should we pay more they already spend 80% of there budgets on advertising (ironic).
So we have to pay more again for them to advertise more and not improve the service (but we dont get served ads) err no thanks.
Wait untill you see how phorm speeds up your browsing experience im sure the insheep will love it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's not quite true.
We may pay more than other EU countries but we do that for almost all consumer products in the UK. This has much to do with out unwillingness to enter the EU monetary markets as a partner rather than an objector as it does to do with individual business practices.

Regardless of the fact that we pay more the hard truth is that we do not pay enough to allow the providers to make a profit and if you think that you have the right to take services without the provider making his end then you are naive.
If I built your house for you and after I gave you the price you then demanded that I still provide the house at that price despite the fact that you have added way more content to the design than the scope of the budget can manage would you still expect me to work at a loss? ( think torrent files )

I know it's a poor analogy but it is the area in which my business operates and one that makes sense to me.

I just think that people need to get a grip of reality some times. By all means object to things that are wrong but don't turn into guerilla activists disavowing all that you don't like for no other reason than you don't like it. Just be objective and be wary of making wild statements that bear no resemblance to fact, it just makes you look ill-educated and paranoiac in an area where there will be very well educated and informed minds waiting to pounce on such ill-informed rhetoric. ( this is not directed at Bonglet, just a comment based on my observation of some other comments made in the past, that I wanted to say generally )

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With respect ISPs are turning a profit there are scores of ISPs out there who are "mature" companies and doing quite well. Yes they might want to make more profit but who doesn't? That doesn't mean it is ok either legally or morally to categorically invade people's privacy.

The biggest problems ISPs face in the UK are almost entirely regulatory based. OFCOM have failed the country so often with regards to BT's control over the telephone network's infrastructure that goes far beyond unacceptable. BT holding back ADSL as long as they could in order to monetise on the significant investment they made into their failed ISDN product didn't help matters either.

LLU has been made as difficult as possible by BT in order to try and keep their grip on the infrastructure and the cost of BT Wholesale products to the ISPs is a farce (made worse again by OFCOM).

However, BT will be having a bit of a shock soon because they simply cannot keep up. With use of the sewer systems to deliver high speed broadband coupled with LLU some of the larger industry members will soon be in a much stronger position to genuinely compete with BT not just through the provision of data products but also voice which until now has very much been BT's domain due to their control over PSTN.

Alexander Hanff