Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Quite and Article 2 referred to in Article 7 states

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

The legality of the right to have this vote is disputed by both sides so where does that leave things? If the people there decide they want out of Spain and it's legal for them to do that then that's up to them. I couldn't care less just like I don't care what they think about Brexit which plenty of Eurocrats and national PM's/foreign ministers have had their say about despite not interfering in the affairs of a member state. If it's deemed illegal then they clearly don't have that right even though they might desperately want it and keep on trying to challenge or change the law until they get what they want. Beating up these people isn't the way to resolve any of this, IMHO in fact it makes the likelihood of what Madrid fears worse. God only knows what's going to happen when night falls. I can see fatalities, including police, if they don't exercise some restraint. Somebody needs to get on the phone to Madrid and get them to stop this.

Just seen, on Sky News, images of a middle aged guy hit with a baton from behind whilst standing with his hands in the air doing nothing! These people aren't violent thugs, from what I've seen they're not even armed or retaliating. The trouble is there will be those who'll seek reprisals for all of this and they'll probably include some who want to incite trouble for very different reasons.

According to Sky News the Spanish government is now claiming their response is proportional yet none of the reports I've seen have mentioned anything other than the fact those on the streets have been peaceful and unarmed. Apparently the police drafted in have been using rubber bullets which are illegal in Catalonia. Maybe that law doesn't matter either though...

Interesting to hear on Sky that the Labour and Lib-Dem leaders are now demanding the PM and Foreign Secretary to 'intervene' in the affairs of another EU state when it's such bad form to do so apparently. According to John Craig, Cable wants Spain's ambassador called in and told it's completely unacceptable and Corbyn wants May to 'intervene to end the violence and find a political solution'...

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

It matters not what we think of the legality of the Referendum. It matters what the Catalans think of it.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Well if the rest of the world deems the whole thing illegal then who'll recognise an independent Catalonia? The EU won't. Of course the Catalans may not want to accept any 'final' legal opinion if it doesn't go their way and there's nothing anyone can do about that but I don't see how they can just go it alone unless they want to be like North Korea.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Have you forgotten about Rhodesia?

An interesting article on the possible economic impact.

Link

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Not sure what your point is about Rhodesia but I don't think the Catalans would want to go that way. It seems to me that their main aim is to be better off, not a basket case pariah economy cut off from the EU. If the UK supposedly can't survive outside the EU I doubt Catalonia can. If this is more of an emotive issue about their own national identity etc. however then I can see things getting nasty because they won't be thinking rationally.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Spain really have got this horribly wrong. It was easier to just let it unfold and cry about the legal basis. They've instead forcibly attempted to block a vote and started beating up voters, genius.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Over 750 injured now. :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41461032


What Corbyn, Sturgeon and Cable think about it:

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/jeremy-corb...olence-1641471

Not worried about 'intervening' in Spain's affairs evidently and if the EU grandees still are they shouldn't be. For once I agree with Corbyn - it is appalling!

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Britain, the Commonwealth and the United Nations all deemed Rhodesia's UDI illegal, and economic sanctions, the first in the UN's history, were imposed on the breakaway colony. Amid near-complete international isolation, Rhodesia continued as an unrecognised state with the assistance of South Africa and Portugal.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Oh I see but look how that turned out for them. Is that what the Catalans want do you think - to be Europe's Zimbabwe? That'd be better than the status quo? Maybe the they'll consider Zimbabwe's plight at some point and decide that going it alone isn't such a good idea after all. Obviously I have no more idea than you about what's going to happen but I'm hoping those in positions of power on both sides are thinking this through because they're unleashing very powerful forces which can't easily be reversed and it could very easily adversely affect all of us within or without the EU.

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

No I don't want it to become another Rhodesia but there was a direct correlation
in that both independence declarations were deemed illegal (expect an announcement about Catalonia's).

The difference here is that Rhodesia was a commonwealth country rather than a state in a country and at the time we we still were classed as a world power and had a lot more clout with the UN back then.

Catalonia is playing a very dangerous game here which could potentially end up sparking a civil war in Spain with the possibility of the Basque region siding with Catalonia.

I'm fully expecting independence being declared tomorrow if not then definitely on Tuesday.

Link

Also

This

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Well it looks like things didn't escalate over night which is a very good thing.

@ Pip - I didn't say you wanted Catalonia wanted to be another Zimbabwe, I askedif you thought the Catalans would want it to be . I'm still confused as to their reasoning for all of this given that I still can't see how they can hope to come out of this financially better off than they've gone into it. Of course they may value their independence from Spain more highly than that. IIRC they want to remain part of the EU but I'm sure the Spanish would have something to say about that and I believe they'd have to start the process from scratch so that could take many years. :shrug:

I can't see how their leaders can seriously claim this 'result' is valid given all the uncertainty caused by the police intervention in matters which is no doubt why Madrid chose to do it. I still think they should have just let them get on with it then challenged the legality through whatever courts would ultimately decide and such matters. Both sides seem to be playing a very dangerous game but nobody I've heard thus far seems to be supportive of the way in which Madrid has responded and the Prime Minister's comments that the police acted with 'calm' are frankly laughable unless the Spanish govt. has an entirely different interpretation of the word.

Anyway, if they've acted with this level of aggression to try to prevent the vote God only knows what they'll do if a declaration of independence is made? Will they try to arrest the Catalan leaders? :shrug:

Re: Riot police in stand off as illegal Catalonia independence vote begins
 

Hopefully it remains calm for now but I think the Spanish authorities have given the Catalan independence cause a massive boost and that won't go away. They should have ignored the vote which, having been 'illegal', would have been treated by many as a juvenile and divisive PR stunt.

Instead they've given the Catalan cause a massive boost and more public sympathy across Europe and the World. It's unbelievable how they, a modern first world democracy, have acted. They should be ashamed at the images that have been broadcast around the world. The Spanish Prime Minster should have resigned over it.

Can you imagine if we had acted like that against Scotland? It probably wouldn't have happened as the SNP mostly shunned such a stunt and sought a legal democratic vote which Westminister in turn granted but if we had sent riot police to beat people trying to vote then Independence in Scotland would surely be a foregone conclusion and rightly so.