Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agreed all adverts are blocked on websites I visit, any that do manage to show through are soon killed by Opera with the content blocker.

On another note if you are targeted with adverts for like he said on click a pony. This sort of advert would be so rear that if you used the advert to aproach and possibly buy something. They can start to build a profile Phorm number had targeted ads for a pony, this IP number contacted to arrange to see the pony. This person name and address bought it.. Suddenly no longer anon.

The holes in this system is so big with it being ISP side it is scarey I am glad I moved..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes you may uphold yourself but I will not put up with people being offensive and coming out with unhelpful remarks like the one in bold above.

See herein lies the issue - people jumping to conclusions I haven't even mentioned anyone being banned and this is not how the team operate here. Members who breach our sites terms of use will get a series of warnings and infractions, which persistant offenses will lead to a banning. But before it even gets to this stage, we should be reaching a compromise and get back to focusing on the discussion of Phorm without the falling out.

I have simply asked that people calm down and stop falling out with other posters and spoiling what has been a good debate.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You'll understand, I'm sure, why I'm resisting saying anything that could fuel speculation, but you've hit the nail on the head. If we're in the business (at least in part) of finding possible solutions, the browser manufacturers are massively relevant. But talk about a hornet nest....

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry. I was trying to return to a bit of constructive debate, and overlook the recent events because people tell me to trust you.

Sheepish? I doubt it.

I'd be delighted to find your report considers the priorities of web creators. So far you haven't mentioned the interests of content providers in your documents. Your initial PIA 'Consent and Participation' completely overlooked the interests of content creators.

Phorm seem to believe this method of conducting business has limitless boundaries on the content side. All content can be stolen without regard to the interests of content creators. I think Phorm will find it has surprisingly firm boundaries, technical, commercial, and legal.

Sheepish? I just hope you're not trying to pull the wool over my eyes like K*nt. I certainly won't be around when the sheep hits the fan. Shear determination will see Phorm off.

Otherwise its content creators who get fleeced... That's baad news for everyone.

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi folks.

Long time lurker here. I have read every single post in this thread and have found it a great aide to understanding all the issues, not to mention inspiring that people are fighting for what they believe in. Our strength is in numbers and the variety of viewpoints is a good thing. However, let us all remember our common goal, which is defeating Phorm, Webwise OIX and highlighting BT breaking the law and fighting to ensure that they are punished for their actions.

People obviously have their different views about Simon Davies. Me personally I am glad that there is somebody with a history of fighting for civil liberties at the table. One may argue about whether Simon is too close to Phorm or not, but the way that I see it there are two options available to him. Either to fight for civil liberties from the outside like we are doing, or by having a seat at the table he can limit the potential damage that companies like Phorm could do.

I don't know the guy, so like you I am basing my opinion of him on what I have read in this thread. His wording certainly gave the impression that 80/20 thinking was recording the Phorm meeting that Alexander and a good few of you attended. However, I would remind everyone that once something is written down it cannot be taken back or edited. When Simon said that "we" will be recording the event it may have been a slip of the tongue or he may have been speaking for Phorm.

I'm not defending the guy, just pointing out that we have a common enemy, and right now that common enemy is rubbing its hands at the infighting that is going on. I would hate anyone to leave the thread as they felt they could not longer express their view, but please lets all remember who we are really fighting.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:clap:

And welcome to the site :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Two points here. The first is that Phorm is a somewhat unusual (though not unique) case in terms of PIA screening. In isolation (having regard to the ICO guidance) it appears to be either compliant or exempt from conditions relating to the UK DPA. This does not apply to overall privacy criteria though, as we pointed out in our interim PIA. So, we actually adopted a broader screening than the one suggested by the ICO. This is why we can include environments outside Phorm itself (such as the ISP's).

In terms of stakeholders, we accept the definition adopted by the ICO, which is "a collective word for the various groups and individuals who have a significant interest in the project and its outcomes, because they are participating in it, or may be affected by it." That, of course, is clearly the public.

However, polling does not offer a solution. As an activist I always found polling to be intellectually dodgy. Results are used when it suits, and ignored otherwise. We don't accept privacy intrusion on the basis of polling (CCTV is a good example) because principle is a far more robust basis to run an argument. If we down the years relied on a majority verdict to determine our position we would be immobalised on hundreds of privacy issues. In the case of targeted advertising, I wouldn't want to presume how the results would pan out. We always thought mandatory fingerprinting would be widely opposed, then discovered most of the population were in favour.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hello socnsum1 and :welcome: to cableforum and mainly the ranks of anti phorm.

You do sometimes need an insider to watch over things this tends to help Simon I still trust and hope Phorm do not tarnish him with their bad reputation..

I would suggest t many if you feel strongly enough about phorm being ISP side let the ISP know send in the letters ets which are posted earlier in this thread. Or do as I did and decide the time has come to leave.

As for the content of websites, phorm really should request this especially since they are hijacking the website cookie and using their cookie. If the phorm trend is allowed then the whole WWW could end up losing as many fall foul of phorm or totally block IP ranges from the ISPs that are tarnished with phorm. Either way this might be the end of internet as we know it and of freedom to surf anywhere.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Oh, there goes another rib..

Meanwhile back on planet Earth, may I suggest the following phrases to win over the ubiquitous man on the Clapham omnibus?

My feeling is that dissemination is key at this time.

"Webwise=Webspies"

"Phormic acid...don't get stung"

If you put these on T-shirts, geeks will wear them.

Geeks talk to lots of end users to solve problems.

The end users will read the T-shirt and ask what it means.

Broadcast is needed, rather than the circular debate that is developing here.

On a side note, can the BBC be persuaded to hand over the complete footage of Mr Hanffs' valiant performance? If not as license payers (we own it) and if not that, under the Freedom of Information Act?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have decided to bring this post over her Mel has agreed I can quote any posts I wish of his on ISPr..

Surely the minuet Phorm pretends top be the website we wish to visit they are breaking that sites copyright?

Examples

ISPr = Copyright © 1999 to Present - ISPreview.co.uk - All Rights Reserved (Terms, Privacy Policy & Website Rules).

Aquiss = © 2006-2007 Aquiss - http://www.aquiss.net. All Rights Reserved

ebay = Copyright © 1995-2008 eBay Inc. All Rights Reserved. Designated trademarks and brands are the property of their respective owners. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of the eBay User Agreement and Privacy Policy.

Aria = This web page is Copyright 1995-2007 Aria Technology and protected under UK and international law. All rights reserved.
Aria Technology Ltd. | Registered in England. | Company No. 3404773 | google checkout integration and emarketing by visions new media

BBC = image below.

Well I could go on for ever but with each one Phorm would pretend to be the site this is something google doesn't do is that a big enough difference for Kent.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This diagram STILL does not address the issue of someone gaining a Webwise cookie and then accessing the website via a non-phormed ISP (e.g. browsing from a laptop at home via a phormed ISP, then from work via a non-phormed ISP) who strips off the Webwise cookie then?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Perhaps it doesn't but i was using it to show the copyright phorm will be breaking everytime it pretends to be another website.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surely, for good or bad, that includes the content providers not just the public?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The "stakeholders" include individual content providers, users and anyone affected by a system. However we would naturally focus more on the public interest with regard to individual rights.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There are many members of the public that spend money to have website we copyright our sites. We should also be protected from another orginisation pretending to be us. Our reputation couuld be tarnished if phorm do revert to some of their past tricks..


I have members of the public visit my sites i might help them to find things they are interested in. This is between me and the person visiting and shouldn't have the big brother over the shoulder spying..

sorry but I do hold this as personal to me and as such not for others to use, copy, or whatever with.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, I understand. I face such problems every day of implementing clients' requirements, which often include fist-slamming assertions that a feature must operate in a stated way, despite the limitations of the browser and corporate-mandated security zone settings etc.

At the risk of making a sweeping statement and being proved wholly wrong, the crux of the problem is and always will be consumer buy-in. Choosing and installing a new browser is relatively simple. With great open source browsers being available, if the big 3/4 implement something that the community doesn't like, a new branch and branding will emerge without this feature. FireKitten?!

One could assume intra-ISP profiling provided the answer but again both the consumer and the online community can play a part in forcing corporate hands because of (a) the power of viral messaging (switch from VM/BT/TT because of Phorm) and (b) the amount of user and hobbyist generated content, which, given a working Phorm detector could be used to deliver a direct message to anyone visiting from a participating ISP.

One avenue that hasn't been explored on this forum is the role that single-sign on (global identity/identity management/online passport/...) systems could play in behavioural targeting. No doubt the bods at Yahoo, Google and Microsoft are more than on top of this. Of course the challenge will still be getting ordinary websites to participate in data profiling, a problem intra-ISP solutions don't have.

But I think the only fair way to get this data is to pay the websites themselves for it, that way the income rightly goes to the content producers and not the service providers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't need many words to describe the Lunacy of the afore said Logic!

Who is Bamboozling Who & what has happened to the Media & Advertising Executives Braincells?

There is a World of difference between Click-Streaming Users Fixed Media Preferences & Proposing or trying to Click-Stream "Live Personal, Private, Copyright, Trade Secret Communications between Two consenting Personal,Business, Military entities", especially without proper consent from Both Parties.

Since the Internet (even of http Port 80)is a hybrid of Secure, Personal, Private data, it is basically Madness to Profile any of this streaming data WITHOUT GOOD REASON, especially at the ISP Level which takes Basic Rights away from both Business & the General Public!
http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/im...s/banghead.gif

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

One final thought for Simon and then I hit the pub for last orders...

(A question that's been posed before) Does the internet need a revolution in advertising? Online newspapers are starting to see real returns from their online business. New sites and ideas get created on a low-cost basis from many hours of hard graft. If they take off, their running costs are relatively low and they can more than break even from existing ad sources. It could be said that problems at the ISPs are all their own and Ofcom's fault.

Who's pushing this revolution in advertising and how will we suffer if the revolution is quoshed? Goodnight all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

MPO Phorm is pushing this revolution to line his pockets and a cut for the ISPs.

Customers will see nothing but webpages loading slower and god forbid if a phorm server falls over no internet...

The words I heard mentioned form someone who has seen the rig it is like a load of servers if one failed he said it would be a nightmare to sort it out.

If this fails we will lose nothing the ISPs just a little greed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK - i get that, i see everyones IP address that visits my website via statcounter - but statcounter only sees who visits which sites they track - it does not build a profile for invidivual peoples entire internet usage, nor does google (apart from search queries). So his analogy seems irredeemably flawed IMHO if his comparison is that what phorm plan to do is somehow similar to website owners profiling their visitors (this is back to the tesco clubcard analogy where tesco only see what you buy from them).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yup as I pointed out in my last paragraph they conveniently ignore that point.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think a bigger problem is websites will be able to read your webwise tracking cookie by embedding some https content on their page. Phorm can't strip the cookie from encrypted streams, so the website will get to see your unique user id. If the website doesn't want to pay for a certificate to read your UID, it should also work if they use a port other than 80.

Taking it one step further, the anti-phishing protection phorm claims to provide, is supposed to protect the sort of person who would be likely to click on a dodgy link in an email and provide their details, but just by tricking them into clicking on a link in an email you send them, you can capture their email address along with their webwise UID.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that would be a worrying thing since they said it wouldnt be reading emails.. How can you be sure for technology like this to be introduced you really need someone with a totally clean not tainted..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another user posted regarding different individuals using the same connection and login account and the possibility of visiting a friend and being essentialy kept in the dark with regards to how his data was being handled and it got me thinking.

Is there intercompatibility between ISP's?

Lets say for a minuite that i opt in (purely for the sake of the argument) and i do this using my laptop's wifi whilst sitting at a cafe connected through BT.

Suddenly i hear that theyre out of blueberry muffins but that the cafe down the road has some, so i pack my gear and leg it down the street to secure some blueberry filled goodness.
I unpack my laptop and hook into the wifi which this time is provided by Carphone Warehouse (whos flown surprisingly low under the radar up till now)

Several questions arise at this point.
Will i still be opted in?
Will i be presented another opt in/out/shake-it-all-about screen?
Will my laptop melt under the strain of desperately trying to divide by zero?
Will the cookie provided by BT's cookiemongler (for want of a better term) be valid on carphone warehouses equipment?

on the last point regarding cookies i cant see this as being possable in a purely technical sense, i mean without going too far into moonspeak math/code jargon; numbers generated by a computer are not even close to random.

Take a playlist for instance, if you select randomise then it will go through every track in a seemingly random pattern till it plays all the tracks then it will stop.
In a truly random system however its more than likely that certain songs will be played more than once some may even be played several times.

The same kind of principle applies to the term UNIQUE ID, in that much like a playlist no string will be produced twice on the same system in order to maintain that each string is indeed UNIQUE.
However two systems are in play here and therefore the chances of me winding up with the same UID as Jonh Doe although extremely slim appear to be very real.
I mean the BT/PHORM equipment generates a random UID that it assigns to me.
The Carphone/PHORM equipment would do the same, and unless there was direct communication between the two ISP's equipment then neither cookiemongler would know which UID's where already in the system.

Doesnt this pose a significant problem for the actual database?
I mean a database frankly goes into meltdown when two unique keys are the same for two different tables (unless theres a secondary key to differentiate)

So am i completely missing something here or are the cookies assigned further down the equipment line where presumably multiple ISP's funnel the data through?

If so then this raises a further interesting question:
how can BT even begin to concieve of a setup thats a cookie free opt in/out/shake-it-all-about setup without having consultations with other ISP's that would most definately be effected by such modifications?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It does not matter that phorm will not be reading emails, if you can persuade someone to click on a link in an email, and you include a unique identifier in that link such as the email address you sent the email to, and embed some https content such as an image in the page you link to. Your browser will fetch the page and the website will get sent both the email address and the tracking cookie containing the UID of the person that received the email.

And the people you can't persuade to click on your link aren't likely to fall for a phishing email either, so wouldn't really benefit from phishing protection.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

On ISPreview we have normaly told them if they have a link in an email they don't know the sender to copy and paste the url onto notepad. If it was madse to look like ebay this would show it it had a redirtect to a http number instead of eday.co.uk works on any link in email to see what you are clicking on.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The UID is 128 bits long, phorm could use a few of those bits to uniquely identify each specific device and use an incrementing count rather than being truely random. However with 2^128 permutations it is quite likely that they won't worry about it. The worse that could happen if you share a UID is that you will share the one profile, so the adverts won't be quite so relevant. If a website doesn't appreciate being exploited by phorm, it could change the UID in the tracking cookie for their own domain, potentially poluting someone elses profile with your browsing of their site anyway.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you for this clear statement Simon.

So if I read this correctly what you are really saying reading between the lines
is that we need to start using VPN's & SSL encryption and find a safe harbour with strong privacy laws for our Internet pipe to come out of? Somewhere like the former communist country "East Germany" where they built up a healthy fear of the brutal Stazi secret police and their all seeing eyes.

regards

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sorry if I'm being overly cynical, but I'm looking at my choice of hats and have selected the tinfoil one.

8020 Advisory group contains: Ray Stanton, Global Head of Business Continuity, Security & Governance, BT plc

So, Phorm, pioneered by BT plc have paid an auditing company to green light its system when that company also has a high level BT plc employee as an advisor.

Anyone else see a major problem here?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

this might be handy for people that cant see the original footage or want to put it on their ipod,
its also far easyer to edit and pull the interesting clips out if you want to do that.
http://www.divshare.com/download/4404159-515
click-extended656.mp4

---------- Post added at 04:19 ---------- Previous post was at 03:04 ----------

it appears PhormUKPRteam's new plan is hanging back, waiting for any posts on the blogs to cool off then post a comment or link to a favourable post.....NewScentist in this case.

http://www.newscientist.com/blog/tec...ng-on-you.html

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Much has been suggested about the https:// cookie. But in fact this will only work for those sites where all the code on that site is secure, ie an https://site (and which Phorm is unable to profile even if it tries). Just having a single https:// image will mean that site has mixed secure and unsecure content and most browsers will flag this up with a weak security popup error which will alert the user to something not quite right going on. So it is broadly unviable.

I believe the Phorm servers are set up just to strip the cookies which accompany a [GET] request. But any site can easily read all the cookies on a visitor's computer using simple javascript document.cookie. It is not clear whether Phorm attempts to strip cookies obtained in this way, my gut feeling is that they probably don't.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's a very interesting question - I think I will ask BT that via the beta forum if you don't mind.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

AFAIK they don't even need to do that. The cookie is available to be read by CLIENT-SIDE script, so all they need to do is read the UID and copy to another, non-phormed cookie, which won't then be stripped.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Agree. If I can obtain your UID, I can impersonate you (because Phorm can't differentiate me from you).

Using your UID I can either corrupt your profile (causing you to see the type of adverts I'd prefer you to see), or obtain a succession of adverts from OIX which reveal your likely profile to me.

If I can buy data from other people who've done the same thing, I can start to build a wider profile about you with Phorm's help.

Even Phorm's DPA registration (purpose 2) suggests they aspire to sell "Personal Details" to "Traders in personal data" "worldwide".

Its valuable stuff your personal details.

---------- Post added at 09:54 ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 ----------

Sample code on dephormation.org.uk and elsewhere.

It looks like it could be trivial, around 3 lines of Javascript code.

---------- Post added at 10:46 ---------- Previous post was at 09:54 ----------

Can I query this post, the significance is just starting to sink in.

Are you advocating that browsers support cross site cookies? Finding a 'solution' to the problem that they don't exist? If there is a hornets nest it might be because there is a reason.

Currently there is no such thing, thank God, hence the redirects that Phorm must jumps through to create one.

What positive effect, if any, do you think cross site cookies would have on privacy?

Pete

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I was thinking of user controls and cookie management.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I see virgin media has already changed there T&C's to suit phorm

G Your details and how we look after them

2. By having the services we provide installed in your home and/or by using them you are giving us your consent to use your personal information together with other information for the purposes of providing you with our services, service information and updates, administration, credit scoring, customer services, training, tracking use of our services (including processing call, usage, billing, viewing and interactive data), profiling your usage and purchasing preferences for so long as you are a customer and for as long as is necessary for these specified purposes after you terminate your services. We may occasionally use third parties to process your personal information in the ways outlined above. These third parties are permitted to use the data only in accordance with our instructions.

Pity vm dosent say what there instructions are and if they ever leave the country :(.
All this data to share with phorm yay (not) starting to get really peed off with events and people.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I wouldn't call Phorm's profiling of every GET request you make on the internet "occasional use" by a third party. In fact, I'd call it "continuous use" and that is a very different thing indeed.
I don't think the above quoted T&C would stand-up for 10 seconds in court as giving permission to allow Phorm to profile everything every customer does all the time.

Expect to see a significantly different set of T&Cs should Phorm-Webwise ever get off the ground.

Anyway, aren't the above quotes from the Interactive TV section of the T&Cs - Broadband has it's own set.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

They also have the Earl of Northesk on their advisory board who has been very outspoken against Phorm in his official capacity as a peer in the House of Lords.

So no I don't see a problem with 80/20 Thinking having influential and important people on their advisory boards.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 11:50 ---------- Previous post was at 11:40 ----------

Dav, the point being made was that less ethical web site owners could simply include some HTTPS content in order to "see" the cookie and grab the UID then associate it with IP. The way the Phorm technology works is it strips the cookie out of the communication before it gets to the website, however it is unable to do this with https, so using https you can see any cookie the user has stored under your domain (included the forged Phorm ones).

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Those are the broadband ones lucevans go take a look, if anything was reported to tarnish vm they could reply in argument that its in the end users t&c's those i highlighted would have been used to implement phorm with such simpleness as vm and phorm would have hoped, but are now stalling on due to the interest and complicity issues of the idea.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Fair point, opening a https page from within the http page using javascript or just redirecting the http: page request to a https: page would avoid that problem.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

An advisory group is exactly that - advisory - and hence has a variety of people on it, with a variety of views, and backgrounds. So I would expect to see privacy focussed people, and even people from the marketing industry - 80/20 should be seeking advice from "opponents" as well as "friends".

It worries me far more that the Phorm team of executives includes people like CTO Stratis Scleparis, who was CTO at BT at a critical time in the development of this BT/Phorm relationship. CTO's don't advise, they make decisions - but who for? Their current employers or their future employers or their past employers?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With the change in the Terms and conditions VM have implemented would mean the information that they hadn't agreed or signed to use Phorm were incorrect.

Now we start to think about trust again if our ISP is giving out information like that to the news media then quietly changing Terms and Conditions..........

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe during the Webwise trials there will be those webmasters who are able to demonstrate the various security problems associated with the Phorm cookies, by intercepting Webwise cookies, associating them with visitor IP addresses, and linking them to a smattering of information that the
website already holds on the visitor, and diverting the visitor to a page that explains what they have been able to do and encourages the visitor to approach their ISP and complain. Something like (with exaggeration just for humour you understand..)

"Welcome. You appear to be using Webwise. I've got a note of your IP address and your Phorm UID and I note that you are interested in **** and *** on my site. It seems you are also a forum member here and from your IP address I think you are Fred Bloggs - how is your sister Mabel? - are her ****'s improving? - keep inserting the cream with the applicator. I could now sell all this information for £*** but I'm a nice guy and I won't. In fact I've already deleted it. But it really is this easy to hack the Webwise system and I think you should tell your ISP. And switch off Webwise. The next person to do this to you might live abroad somewhere like **** or **** and they could well be less honest than me."

Of course I couldn't condone such action...but I expect to see a variety of reports about successful hacking of the system once the trials start, if they ever do.

If a website does this - I wonder if Phorm would claim that the webmaster was acting illegally?

From the tools I've already got from Dephormation, I could probably do something like this with a little work and advice, if I felt like paying for an https certificate. As a charity site I don't think I can justify it, but I hope some anti-Phorm campaigners can come up with something similar before the BT Webwise trials start. After all - trials are for experimenting!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

CF, for example? (...and I'm not convinced you would need an SSL certificate)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If the terms and conditions have changed then of course you all now have a chance to cancel your contract without penalty because you don't agree with the new terms. Nothing says "We don't want this!" more clearly than mass migration.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To answer this in laymans terms making it easier for some to understand what they are agreeing with.

1. They say Phorm will stop the phishing by protecting you. Your browsers already have this technology to protect you and do without profiling you. Well Phorm will do this by first Phishing your connection..

When you get an email pretending to be your bank they have a websit that looks just like your banks website but you are on someone elses server be warned this is exactly what Phorm will do to every page you visit pretend to be that website to place a false cookie on your computer...

2. The get scripts are very easily changed and one simple line addition can make phorm harvest your IP and add this to your Phorm number, or the name your computer uses even the name, address that is stored on your computer.

Would you really like to entrust this power to a company already well known for its activities as a rootkit/spyware/adware company.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Maybe we should start http://www.leavevirginnow.com and explain what the new terms mean and how it effects people's rights. Also a history of 121Phormedia all the articles about Phorm, the technical analysis by Dr Clayton etc etc etc.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And don't be bullied by misinformation from customer support teams who often unfair clauses in the Ts & Cs that seem to give you no choice.

Typical clauses are "if you do not agree to this change you have x days to respond". No you don't. No court would see your lack of action to be taken as implicit consent. You may want time to seek legal advice. The communication may not have reached you (BT seem to email me via an account they chose to set up that I never read, despite me saying my email address was x@y.com).

Other arguments the ISP may make is that the changes don't significantly alter your arrangement and you as a signatory will not suffer penalty from the new changes. This could be harder to argue about, but I doubt in the current climate of data loss and identity theft that you couldn't successfully argue your case.

Don't be bullied. IANAL.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is a list of relevant source links at http://www.inphormationdesk.org/attributions.htm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How many customers would have to leave VM for a mass exodus to be noticed?

From my perspective, it doesn't seem to me that VM are very interested in its current customer base, the VM business seems to be hell bent on acquiring new customers at any cost e.g. half-price packages for 12 months.

Changing subject, a couple of points about the BBC Click interview:-

Viewing this without the benefit of this forum, I would have wondered why you were asked to shake hands and why the presenter thought it had been a contentious interview, the way the BBC Click edited the stream it seemed very bland.

I think that using a commercial sites, e.g. Amazon, could confuse the message that Phorm is bad, because commerical sites already tend to profile their customers and suggestions from Amazon can be pretty good - so if I wasn't aware of Phorm but knew about Amazon, I'd probably think more profiling could be a good thing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I was thinking maybe using your site as a template would be a good idea, but obviously VM specific.

Alexander Hanff

---------- Post added at 14:33 ---------- Previous post was at 14:12 ----------

I think it is safe to say that a change which effects your fundamental human rights and also asks you to wave your rights under criminal law would be classed as a material change in the contract terms and be valid cause to terminate without penalty. And believe me, the last thing VM will want to do is force this issue into court as the resulting media coverage would just alert more people to the change in terms and cause yet another scandal for VM; so they are likely to release you from your contract with limited umming and arring.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This point has been raised before, so I'll clarify the situation.

In my Privacy International capacity, I have for some years known and worked with each member of the 80/20 advisory board, and I have a high regard for every one of them.

I knew Ray well before his BT incarnation and even before his UNISYS days, and regard him as a man of enormous energy and intellect who always believed in following an ethical compass.

The vast majority of the advisory board, including Ray, joined 80/20 weeks before I had even heard of Phorm.

I wouldn't accuse you of being a tinfoil hat brigade member, but please do understand that in our view the privacy world is bigger than Phorm, bigger than online targeted advertising and broader than the Web. We certainly don't choose our AB members to suit a small contract involving a tiny part of the global privacy spectrum.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Earlier on this week I emailed Virgin Media Customer Services and asked if PC Guard software that they supply would detect spyware such as Phorm, Webwise and OIX. This is the reply that I got from one of their agents on Friday 2 May 2008.

Hi
**** EMAIL REF: ******

Thanks for getting in touch with the Virgin Media Support team.

Virgin Media has signed a preliminary agreement with Phorm to understand
in more detail how this technology works but we have not yet decided if
it will be introduced. Webwise is a technically complex application
which could be implemented in a number of different ways and it will be
some months before we can confirm if the service will be made available
to our customers and if so, how and when it would be deployed. Customer
concerns around privacy and data protection are (and will remain) an
important element of this preliminary evalaution and we will not roll
out Webwise unless we are completely satisifed that in our view it
complies with applicable data protection and privacy regulations.

It may be that, as part of the evaluation process, we want to test the
technology among some of our customers but we are not currently doing so
and we will not conduct any such tests without individual customers'
prior consent. Moreover, should Virgin Media eventually decide to roll
out Webwise, customers will not be forced to use the system.

In the meantime, we'll continue to communicate our intentions openly and
transparently. If we go ahead with deployment, we will let all our
customers know before rolling out the Webwise solution and will clearly
explain how the system works and what it means for them.

If there's anything else we can help with, please let us know.

Kind regards,
***** ********
Econtact Support Team
Virgin Media
**** EMAIL REF:******

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We do seem to be at the mercy of 80/20 since we already know from previous posts that Phorm will use selective extracts to make the system look good. It only takes one bad apple to ruin the load and in this case the bad apple is at the head. The main problem is this bad apple is very good at sales talk and those who only look for £££ do not see the undelying ajenda.

I think the local elections might have been a warning shot to the government and until there is a court case I would say Phorm shouldn't be deployed as any ISP that does could then leave themselves open to prosocution..

The management of Phorm are much wiser than the managment of the ISPs since phorm only incite the crime the ISP actually commits it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Did Ray know of Phorm before he joined 80/20?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Don't you just love the skilful way they avoid the question you asked? (about whether their PC Guard would detect Webwise as spyware?)

Dear despised Customer
Thank you for your awkward question. We value our profits highly and we will be avoiding your question as answering it might damage our dividend.
If we can ignore any other questions you might stupidly wish to ask us, please do get in touch.
Kind regards etc. etc.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You stun me. Are you suggesting that Phorm is so momentously important as an issue that he would lie in wait until being invited onto the AB of a privacy organisation that had no connection with Phorm, then capitalise on a 5+ year relationship in the hope that we might at some point in the future be asked to do a PIA on Phorm? Hardly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Simon I did send you a PM but never had a reply even though I had said it wasn't going to be posted public.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sorry. I haven't checked my PM's for a couple of weeks. I'll do that now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Ya know, as daft as it sounds, I would have a lot more respect if that was the letter that was sent out by VM as at least it would be honest. This constant spinning by Phorm, BT, VM etc is just tiring. The whole description of this as a "service" is laughable in the extreme. It provides no benefits whatsoever for end-users. Its highly debatable about the issue of content providers too imho.

On another matter though I would like to thank Simon for his continued engagement with us on these boards. I have been highly critical of Simon at various points since finding out all about Phorm and their plans. Although I would prefer he not to be working with Phorm it is better that someone with his background and proven track record work from the inside rather than some new start-up with absolutely no track record and no ethics.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Whilst I agree there is a lot of 'tin-foil hat' around Phorm, I do think that the move from BT to Phorm by

http://www.phorm.com/about/exec_scleparis.php

has made people wary of ANY connections between ex-BT staff and ANYTHING to do with Phorm.

On a more general point, you do seem to regard Phorm as a minor issue in the grand scheme of things. For example, I think you raised the issue of mass finger-printing. Speaking purely for myself, I see a massive difference between an 'invasion of privacy' for the greater good (prevention/detection of crminality) and invasion of privacy for pure commercial gain. I suspect you won't agree with this perspective, but I think it explains just why Phorm has created such a backlash, whereas other 'privacy' issues haven't.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I have requoted my own post since there was no answer to the copyright of the servers phorm give to the ISP and the phishing of the websites VM customers wish to visit that phorm software complets to place a false cookie on the customers machine?

Can you provide a link to this so others can check it with their copies of the T&C incase others have changed.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I completely agree. Especially as this said executive was most likely involved in the illegal BT/Phorm trials of 2006 and 2007 where no attempt was even made at obtaining consent from those involved.

Again I am in complete agreement. There is a huge difference between issues of privacy where the intent is to combat crimes such as child pornography, terrorism, organised crime and invasions of privacy for pure commercial profit. Its very clear where Phorm sits in that spectrum.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Sure florence http://allyours.virginmedia.com/html...ble/terms.html

I agree with johnhorb and qf in that people dont mind with privacy if it is with regard to public protection and stuff but for a spyware company to rewite there code and place it into a box at isp's for financial and commercial profit is insane, no way anyone would want it if told the whole truth lots of people with there fingers caught in pies influencing any decissions made.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I also agree with John. Simon, you do seem to be treating Phorm as a minor matter which puzzles me immensely considering you were the man who said about Google.Doubleclick on the PI site here: http://www.privacyinternational.org/...]=x-347-560886
I've asked before for an answer about this, but you didn't answer, so I'll ask again.

How can you say what you said above, while (seeming to be) treating Phorm as a minor matter?

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Has anyone seen any comments on Phorm by Privacy International other than with regards to distancing themselves from the 8020 edorsement fiasco?

Is Phorm such a minor issue that no-one at Privacy International has even looked into it(with a PI hat on)?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ofc they havent thats how phorm done the creep by employing simon in a role so he wouldnt jump on there backs and its less unwanted attention on there behalf.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Unfortunately, a google on Phorm and Privacy International will show numerous entries indicating that PI have endorsed the technology. In spite of subsequent clarifications (that PI have NOT endorsed the technology), you can't remove historical info from google.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That was exactly why I posted the question, it's become almost impossible to find any such comments if they exist.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Groan. I didn't say it was "minor". I said there is a big world full of even nastier invasions out there. That doesn't diminish my focus on Phorm.

Sure, in the big scheme of things Phorm is relatively containable. I'd be a liar if I didn't admit that the prospect of mandatory population-wide DNA and biometric acquisition, wholesale data matching, ubiquitous identity demands, comprehensive government profiling, expanded police and security powers and mass pacification of the population weren't occupying my mind somewhat, but that doesn't mean I treat Phorm with any less regard as a privacy issue.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Glad to hear that. I was a bit concerned by:-

"We certainly don't choose our AB members to suit a small contract involving a tiny part of the global privacy spectrum."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

To put things in perspective, even CCTV is a tiny part of the privacy spectrum.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thank you, Simon, that's good to hear. :) One of my concerns with Phorm is that it won't be minor but instead that it's the thin edge of what will be an ever increasing wedge.

Just out of interest, have PI looked at Phorm in a similar manner to that which they looked at the Google/Doubleclick deal?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Despite all the discussion about Phorm/Webwise and 80/20 Thinking's PIA, the real villains of the whole saga are the ISPs. Just because they have been offered a means of making money by invading customer’s privacy, they don't have to take advantage of that offer.

Shouldn't BT, Virgin Media and Carphone Warehouse each be conducting a PIA in relation to the effect of Phorm/Webwise on their business?

Those three ISPs would do well to read the ICO PIA handbook.

“Why do a Privacy Impact Assessment?
Public trust in its institutions is generally felt to be in decline, with individuals tending to feel distanced, alienated and even disengaged. Government and corporate reputations can be fragile and easily undermined. In order to maintain and enhance their reputations these organisations need to act responsibly in relation to key issues like privacy, and to be seen to be acting responsibly. Experience shows that once an organisation’s reputation is damaged and trust is lost it is then very hard to regain that trust."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Nearest I could find (and I wouldn't expect Simon to comment, as he is posting here as 80/20 Thinking NOT PI).

http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-560974

(Not sure how to post that as a hyperlink - VBulletin doesn't like the [347], so cut'n paste the URL)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sure their Profit Impact Assessment is very complete and ongoing. Other than that, they won't give a fig.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I couldn't agree more. In fact, the focus has been on Phorm and 80/20T for so long, it almost appears distraction tactics. Time to get MP's to put the pressure onto ISP's who could be, but are NOT yet, the real villains if deployment goes ahead. Hopefully, Labour MP's in particular will be receptive to their constituents in view of their recent trouncing at the ballot box.

This venture will go absolutely nowhere unless and until the ISP's participate so forget about the tail and aim for the head. Besides, the thread has reached a plateau and we're not moving forwards, all we are doing is chewing the fat.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We are being asked to feel secure that our privacy is safe in the hands of someone who is not trustworthy using scriptors from a country that does more malicous damage to computers than any other. Then wonder why we question this.

Similar script to what was on the website for the videos about the public meeting comes from Russia, Phorm uses Russian scriptors. Then you wonder why we are shouting we don't want this..

A little more about the Iframe hijack yes it does hijack you strange that phorm uses the same thing.

http://www.sophos.com/security/blog/2007/09/580.html
link to a larger picture easier to read..
http://www.sophos.com/images/sophosl...7/09/cons2.gif

If you look at the image one russian scripter on phorm staff could do that with all the three ISPs customers without anyone knowing just how secure will we be?

This type of scripting is cropping up more and all links into russia so why are we forced to use the same in the pretence it is protecting our privacy.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The thing I am concerned about, is is somebody had'nt posted here to say they had updated the T&C's, then how can anyone know they have changed?
I sure as hell do not agree with the latests T&C's, but being as virgin have not inphormed me of these changes, could I still dispute them?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

While I have sympathy with Simon's position that this is not the be all and end all of his (our) privacy concerns, the BIG difference between this issue and the other issues that he mentions is that this is for purely commercial reasons, nothing to do with national or personal security. Its purpose is purely to make money off the backs of other peoples private communications whilst giving nothing of any real use in return.

If anyone thinks that phorm (or anyone else) will stop at monitoring http on port 80 then they are living in a different universe filled with fluffy bunnies and honest politicians/businessmen.

If phorm/webwise are allowed to continue with this system in the uk it will be the opening of a can of worms that will be impossible to stop.
Thats why this phorm puppy MUST be strangled at birth, along with any other ideas the ISP's may come up with that rely on selling OUR private data.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am ready to migrate, but I am going to leave it until the last possible moment before Phorm is implemented. I will use the change of conditions as my excuse to renege on the last 10 months of my (unsigned) contact.

In the meantime myself, and I wish many others should also do the same, have served Data Protection notices under section 11 of the act on Virgin Media , specifically quoting Phorm/Webwise. If they get hundreds of these now, they get some form of inkling the work involved handling these and hopefully begin to fear the work involved when many more thousands of people do it also (or leave like me) if and when Phorm is implemented.

I think it is better to fight on the inside ( up to a point) until I really need to vote with my feet. Applied pressure then mass migration are my feelings!

A Plan of Action
 

Write to your MP
Write to your ISP
Spread the word on the web
Write to your EU representative
Sign the Downing Street petition
Serve a section 11 Data Protection Notice on your ISP
Ask everyone you know to do the same
And if you are lurking, sign up and get stuck in!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes of course you can and VM are supposed to tell you when changes occur.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Here hear :clap: im doing the same :)

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Whoops, still got to do: Write to your EU representative!
(How do I find out who that is?)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thanks for this, might come in handy later on when I tell virgin what to do with their spyware riddled "service"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is an interesting article about internet privacy in the Sunday Times

Its written by Jonathan Zittrain , professor of internet governance and regulation ,see link below

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/...cle3866927.ece

I wonder if anyone has contacted him regarding Phorm , I am sure he would have an opinion(negative hopefully)

I am sure Alexander has enough on his plate but it sounds like a job for him !

Here is some more info on Jonathan Zittrain

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Zittrain

Re: A Plan of Action
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

indeed Simon, you pick your battles wisely and you win..., you pick them badly and everyone losses, thats a fact, OC the most lost battles are the ones never seen, or under valued that are the real long term threat to this country.

if people dont have, and use extream vigilance in their own country, and instead shift the focus to the less fortunate countrys as being important, dont be suprised when your country becomes one of the worlds worst ranking countrys, using the high tech advances in net surveillance to undermine the many for the finantial benefits of the few (not to mention the shipping out of the countrys wealth on a massive scale to other countrys executives and companys....)


in other words, its clear the good and the great are used every day, by the corporations and power mongers to divert attention away from real threats in this world, and the Uk has for to long been ignored as a key player in this saveillance power game.

every single new small ignored step ( in the name of profit such as Phorm/ISP DPI kit) is still a step that much nearer to linking the high profile keys you outline above together, after all,without the wide spread data mining by any means available to them, they have no collective information power to wield.

while the PI talk up the high profile cases, there are masses of low level uptake of interception tech that will be far more damageing in the grand scheme, as it doesnt get challenged or talked about, Phorm and the ISP uptake is one such case, even if most people choose to ignore or subvert that that fact for whatever reasons they use to justify the case to themselves its less werthy.

in short, you are giving it a low rating in your grand scheme of things to do, but there are many people reading and contributing here that are on your side with regard to the grand PI etc schemes.

but we also understand the far greater power of the low level rated tech to take control without a fight.... if you see what i mean simon!

we can help you with all the fights for justice, not just the high profile ones you deem more valid, your not alone, but your continued lowering of the Phorm threat does nothing to win friends or influence people for the better, indeed you appear to not see it as any threat whatsoever, and cast it aside as a mear managable and "relatively containable" small problem, if you cant or wont see it for what it's long term potential is, than perhaps your not the man you were or are lost in the re-direction corporate mire that is unfolding....

http://www.privacyinternational.org/...D=x-347-559597
Leading surveillance societies in the EU and the World 2007
28/12/2007

The 2007 International Privacy Ranking

State of Privacy Map

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

PI looked at Google and Doubleclick because we've been following those organisations for years and know something about their infrastructure and core business. And, as JohnHorb pointed out, we published a broader overview of online advertising at http://www.privacyinternational.org/article.shtml?cmd[347]=x-347-560974

We (as PI) held off on commenting about Phorm (beyond saying that it should be opt in) and will continue to hold off until we understand the complete operating environment. Once the PIA is in the public domain PI can join other organisations in expressing a full and frank opinion.

Simon

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yet you still didn't notice the main difference is they are reputable people at the helm also they do not have control over oour internet service.
I wouldn't allow them to monitor my searches if they wre also my ISP.

the fact if I see 10 adverts a month then I have had a bad month I was shocked to hear Kent say hundreds as to me that says his plan it so bombard us with adverts I do not pay for internet connection that is capped to have the bandwidth to be wasted on adverts.

Edited to add another thought.

At present the internet is supplied in a way that anyone caught downloading copyrighted games, movies etc the ISP is in the clear since they say they are the carrier not the content. Once this goes live anyone downloading copyrighted material the ISP then also becomes the accessory as they cannot plead they didn't know.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OC you already know that the reason your PIA has run past the April deadline you set is because that so called "the complete operating environment" keeps changing as we chat right here right now....

will it infact ever be seen as "the complete Operating Environment" that can be accurate for any long term assessment.

given your involvement in the short term lifecycle of 121/Phorm in the UK, it appears they have changed the phorm OE in several ways in just this short time scale.

sure we understand the PIA is there to help that evolving process, but the idea is you compleate your PIA, THEN they change the product for the better.

changeing the webwise product while you havent even got the final report out yet, or todays changed dataset and implimentation from the ISPs, how are you to be sure your report hasnt been made obsolete by next month or even week?.

dont you find it strange with your 8020 hat on , your being made to chase the webwise tail round and round, were you could have been using your PI hat, and cutting off the head, or at least getting the choke stick out and making the Phorm rabid dog far more managable...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Just a thought........
I don't understand any of the techie talk and I guess I don't really need to because I KNOW that I don't want Phorm/Webwise (or anything similar) affecting my ISPs service.
I pay a company to provide my electrical power as I do for gas, water, phone and internet connection. I would not expect or accept any 3rd party interference, for whatever reason, with the first four so why should it be thought of as even possibly acceptable that a 3rd party could be introduced to my PAID FOR internet connection?
Like most other posters here I used to ignore all adverts and in fact found some a real nuisance when browsing. Someone on here mentioned "Adblock Plus", for which many thanks, as now I see no adverts at all.
I've been trying to think of analogies to equal the imposition of Phorm/Webwise for the other services but apart from the introduction of flavours in the water supply or scents in the gas I'm stumped.
It's the downright cheek, the effrontery to presume that we would accept this intrusion into our lives without a murmur of dissent that gets to me. So a huge thank you to all of you who are fighting so hard on my and countless others behalf.

---------- Post added at 20:47 ---------- Previous post was at 20:24 ----------

I've just been looking at a completely OT thread over on BT forums and noticed that folk on there were mentioning the proposed introduction of Phorm/Webwise as part of their disatisfaction with their service.
The word is obviously spreading at last to users of other forums.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am totally disgusted by this and support any action to stop it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another query for Simon 80/20.

Where does corporate privacy factor into your PIA? Corporations need a reasonable expectation of privacy to communicate with their customers, such as presentation of product/service information, product catalogues, pricing structures, customer searches, quotations, customers shopping baskets and orders ... stuff that (in general) isn't currently encrypted typically... and stuff that Phorm will therefore potentially gorge itself on.

You've indicated that you consider opt in to be critical for consumers, but online corporates (and content providers in general for that matter) have a right to privacy too... some of them big, some of them one man operations.

Is that a factor in your considerations? (It clearly isn't something Phorm want to consider, and something the Home Office didn't consider either).

Or is it time to buy shares in SSL certificate authorities? :o)

Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I cba reading all this thread so can someone tell me if this phom madness is still getting the go ahead?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Not only that Bobcat but the ISPs themselves have often argued that they are just a "mere conduit" when it comes to their dealings with the RIAA, MPAA etc etc. They argue that they should not and cannot be responsible for what people do with their connections and use this "mere conduit" argument in defense of that. Contrast that with all this Phorm malarkey and the layer 7 DPI kit and it blows a huge hole in that argument.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Hi Bobcat, I'm assumming you're talking about this thread: http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...art=0&tstart=0

It's not actually the BT folks catching up; the two original threads, http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=2612&tstart=0 and http://www.beta.bt.com/bta/forums/th...=2615&tstart=0 were closed and censored by the BT forum staff because they didn't like the questions we were asking.

You will actually find quite a few of the posters from over there posting over here.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

3 sec summary;

BT - Trials due in April (!), no criminal investigation into 2006/7 trials (yet)
Virgin -Trials expected, but seemingly getting jitters
TalkTalk - Opt in for consumers, no time scale for implementation, no opt in for content creators

Home Office/Police/ICO/DfBEER/MP - Silence or inaction

So effectively, yes its going ahead. But nothing has happened. If that makes sense.

Pete.