Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Though websense is bypasable as it filters the request to the DNS and rejects based on a black list provided by Websense and custom sites added by the eer. In fact often if you go straight for the IP address it will be bypassed and you get to the site. This is far more ingrained into the network.
Which would be against ISP code of conduct, bit like a telco companies deciding to bar calling to certain other people or places.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

My experience of websense is that if unique login is active then you cannot bypass it. e.g. LDAP to access the network.

Though as I said in my last post if you use a web proxy or TOR then you can bypass Phorm and TOR will definitely work.

The Firefox plugin looks interesting as well as it generates spoof web traffic, making the analysing of the data harder. It does mention for that it is for avoiding Googles and yahoos equivalents so hopefully it will work against Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Has anyone sent details of this to the BBC website? At least that is mass coverage. Their 'Click' programme may well be interested.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The guardian has already covered it, so I guess they will be keeping tabs on how it develops. http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technology/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Bill Thompson an independent journalist and regular commentator on the BBC World Service. makes a mention of it on his blog, expect to see it on his BBC website column soon

http://www.thebillblog.com/billblog/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7250971.stm

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

what if for some brilliant program comes out its a successful method to actually stop PHORM attacks you will VM deem you breach your contract and remove you. How silly it could get.

To be honest what about website who use popups to support there business no doubt big brother PHORM and its cronies will leach there website avertising.

Why dont we just open our doors allow advertiser to sleep in the house with the buddies who will just piggyback a ride the hackers and fraudsters. Who no doubt will be smacking there lips at the impending chance to wreak havoc.

I will be basically try blocking every thing from PHORM trows at me with my router.

I wonder how PHORM would like it if we monitored there activities and put junk mail & adverts to them. No because if we did it we would be prosecuted but they are allowed to do to us.

Lets be honest I will assume we will be getting there junk through emails too. If they dont what the betting 60 - 70 emails will be heading our way who opt out.

surely PHORM is basically a legal Phishing.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well, seeing as this site is funded by advertising, and I really don't want the admin team (myself included) to be landed with a bill for server hosting and software maintenance (licences cost money you know), I made a point of finding out how we would be affected.

We get a lot of people join this site to sort out problems with Virgin. As such, a lot of people access the site through Virgin, so we could lose a lot of money if Phorm hijack our ads. As far as I understand it, sites do have to opt in to recieve ads.

Still, it would be interesting to see if Virgin (or any ISP) do attempt to stop utilities that prevent Phorm working, because it could be taken to mean that their opt-out doesn't work (if it did, why would they care if you had opted out or were blocking their attempts to track you).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I've made an anti-Phorm av and sig that anyone is free to use (just dont use them on this board)

PM me if you want the links for them as apparently they are inappropriate for this forum and as such I cannot post them publicly.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

No harm in that ;) .

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I'm not saying you can bypass it just that say
www.google.com might be on the blacklist (unlikely) but http://216.239.51.99/ is not and inputting that allows you to access the blacklisted site.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

It's a shame because I'd seen them and I like them, but unfortunately - just a tad inappropriate for use on this forum. :angel:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

That's an interesting point. Aside from the fact that it would really suck having to pay Phorm to keep CFs adverts in place at VM, what's the betting that "relevance" as graded by Phorm is tied to how much you've paid them?

Alternatively it could mean they know the opt-out is a token gesture but it's enough to keep them (debateably) legal, but would actually rather you couldn't. What's they betting they do try and stop these things working with some reason about "5% of users degrading network performance with these tools blah blah blah"?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

its interesting that Phorm wasnt legal as regards registering with the
Data Protection Public Register

http://www.ico.gov.uk/ESDWebPages/Search.asp?EC=1
(search on phorm as the name as theres no direct URL for that).

until 30 January 2008 ,well after the BT trials began.

lets hope the other companies really didnt start any user unauthorised prosessing backroom trials before that date, or they could be in as serious trouble as BT appear to have placed themselves in now.

UK companies processing personal data without being registered on the
Data Protection Public Register is a BIG NO NO, and very serious apparently.

"
Registration Number: Z1196938
Date Registered: 30 January 2008 Registration Expires: 29 January 2009

Data Controller: PHORM UK INC

Address:
LIBERTY HOUSE
222 REGENT STREET
LONDONW1B 5TR
...

A COPY OF THE DATA PROTECTION REGISTER
This site houses a copy of the public register. It is updated daily.

However, due to peaks of work it may be some time before new notifications, renewals and amendments appear in the public register.

Please note data controllers are deemed notified from the date we receive a valid form and fee.

Therefore the fact that an entry does not appear on the public register does not mean that the data controller is committing a criminal offence.

If you have a specific query you can contact us on 01625 545740.

"

also an ACs BT comment in the same thread makes for good reading too.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...2007/comments/

...
Here are some technical details - from last summer's experiment

By Anonymous Coward
Posted Thursday 28th February 2008 10:49 GMT
https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/73.png
http://www.spikelab.org/blog/btProxyHorror.html
Which includes, amongst other logged details the triggered request and the script embedded in the page that triggered it."

Ohh just to round it off, VIRGIN MEDIAs entry makes for interesting reading regarding what information they might hold on you.
http://www.ico.gov.uk/ESDWebPages/Do...sp?reg=3657255

its potentially a lot more than you might think and would mean you might get a get a LOT more paper than you thought, if and when you send that DPA for 'any and all data' :|

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

http://orange.advfn.com/news_Phorm-s..._25012598.html
"Phorm says Gestrust cuts stake in co to 10.63 pct

Date :28/02/2008 @ 18:24
Source :TFN
Stock :Phorm Inc (PHRM)
Quote :https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/03/13.gif 3300.0 -40.0 (-1.20%) @ 07:38
..."

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Been trying to follow this thread. I understand that the problem is VM contemplating selling our surfing details to Phorm so they can target ads at us. (horrendous idea). :mad:

I don't understand where webwise comes in (don't think I have it on my comp). If you don't have webwise are you still affected by this issue? :confused:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Absolutely but interestingly 15 people voting in the above poll think its a great idea, oddly. :erm:

At the moment as it stands, when and if this is launched on Virgin Media, a visit to the webwise site - check the opt out box, submit and this stores a cookie which will not trigger targetted adverts.

The problem with the above is that you shouldn't have to go through this process to Opt out - Every time for instance that a 'cookie' clearout happens - a revisit to website to do all the above is required again to opt out. It's really stupid that the 'cookie' stored on your computer is only a temporarily 'Opt out'.

ISPs that have been signed up to this will encourage or try to encourage customers, not to opt out by going to Webwise. ISPs have been told to warn customers that they will not be protected by Webwise's Anti-Phishing's protection, but this is hardly an issue to worry about as I am sure most customers will have adequate protection anyway - the fact that there will be no protection on offer. or customers being told such information, should one decide to opt out or complain to their ISP - is blatant scaremongering to try to discourage 'opt outs' en mass.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Webwise is essentially the way that VM & Co are trying to convince you Phorm is a good idea. It's supposed to an anti-phishing technology. The argument and scaremongering when you opt out of the adverts is "oh, but you're exposing yourself to phishing scams now".

The fact that many (me included in them) think that you're more at risk by VM handing over all your surfing data than from a few dodgy scam sites which are (if you're sensible) easily enough avoided seems to not factor into VM's money-grabbing business decision.

Edit: Must type quicker!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Just a quick reminder

Don't forget to watch BBC's Watchdog tonight to see if they've picked up this story.

BBC1 - Watchdog 7:30pm tonight

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

This is just an example of the scare mongering thats going on. They will not be highjacking any adverts what so ever. Sites will sign up just like they do to Google Ads and choose where they want the ads placing. the only difference is that Google ads serve adverts based on what the page where the add is whereas phorm will serve ads based on what the user has been surfing for the last few hours.

Can we get confirmation that if this plan does go ahead that Cable Forum will not be signing up to serve ads from them even if means more money for them?

I still don't see what the fuss is all about, I've got nothing to hide and in the end it means more money for the sites I use as a make a habit of clicking ads on my favorite sites as I know that for each click the site is paid even better if the ad is something that I may be intrested in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

teckcrunch ?, anyone know this guys site and background?
http://uk.techcrunch.com/2008/02/29/...nto-something/
Phorm might be onto something

February 29 Mike Butcher

Since behavioural targeting company Phorm launched recently I’ve looked at the ins-and-outs of the system and it does look pretty interesting.

Phorm is basically an add-on service for an ISP which looks at all your web surfing and attaches an anonymous cookie to your machine.

ISPs trying to target advertising based on this packet data appeared way back in the first dotcom boom, but no-on could make it work.

Phorm uses a technology called ‘deep packet inspection boxes’ to track EVERY website you visit.

Normal cookies are tied to just the one web site they came from, or the ad-network, like DoubleClick’s. Phorm’s cookie looks at all of them
...

Phorm has so far launched in the UK with BT, TalkTalk, and Virgin Media.

The Phorm cookie also recognises publishers signed up to Phorms ad system, so the partners for that are the FT.com; iVillage; Universal McCann; MGM OMD and Unanimis.
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

"I've got nothing to hide" has never been a good argument, and it isn't now. As far as a Russian spyware company which keeps its servers in China is concerned, it doesn't matter whether I've got anything to hide or not - it's none of their damn business what I and my family look at on the web, what I or my family type on web forums, what products I and my family are interested in buying, what interests I or my family have outside of being screwed for even more money by the slimeballs who run this kind of scam and then produce the weasel words we've seen out of Virgin/BT/Carphone Whorehouse about this technology.

This proves that Virgin has nothing but contempt for its customers and I will be cancelling all of my services the same day they start perpetrating this sickening breach of privacy. I will buy a Freeview box and use one any ISP which guarantees not to use Phorm or any similar technology. They can stuff their £115 per month.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

i wonder if CF, Theregister etc will sometime soon be getting a HTTPS URL as well? for the average UK user that doesnt really want their comments to storys and threads 3rd party logged,tracked and sold on to other paying partys.

Akia, are you really thinking this through enough?, whats your thoughts about when this collected data gets sold to another company(s) that correlated that data with a credit reference agencys and other related data companys?.

and you may find your (credit)rating dropping because of your familys online data, do you also ignore that massive profit making potential?.

im prity sure the companys wont ignore it if its allowed to continue, much like every single one of your payment records are passed to the CRAs for profit now.

thats assuming OC that you infact even get to know this personal Data sharing has happened to you and your data.

once its gone that far, how do you reverse your stance if indeed you do and can?.

Anti-Phorm av & sig
 

Ok I've made child friendly versions of the anti-Phorm av & sig. Hopefully people will be able to use them on this board and others.

Feel free to share the links to others :)

av
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]



sig
[img]Download Failed (1)[/img]



If anyone would prefer the adult versions please PM me.

Re: Anti-Phorm av & sig
 

:tu:

Re: Anti-Phorm av & sig
 

Could release them under cc license?

---------- Post added at 12:12 ---------- Previous post was at 12:03 ----------

I have just realised another issue with it being Opt-Out with cookie.

Note everything that works on port 80 (http) and there no way of add cookie's to it.

Software updates, yes some of them send back xml,html,rss files with version information. As they do not use cookies then the SPYCOMS business Phorm get's this information even if you do have cookie on your browser.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

the problem is not with the cc licensing, but with the adult 'phrasing' contained in the av/sig. Therefor they cannot be displayed here publicly. If you want them just PM me :)

Re: Anti-Phorm av & sig
 

Good stuff - cheers :tu:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I've finally made it though more than 400 posts, and now I'd like to ask a question.

Can this Phorm technology be used to identify paedophiles who download illegal pictures?

If so, I am going to answer "No" to the poll.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I Don't think so and anyway that would not make money for them so they would not bother checking. There is only one reason why they are doing this and one reason only £££££Â £Â£Â£Â£Â£Â£à ƒâ€šÃ‚£Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£Âà ‚£Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£Â£Ã ‚£Â£Â£Â£Â£Â £Ã‚£Â£Â£Â£Â£Ã⠀šÃ‚£Ã‚£Â£

---------- Post added at 15:27 ---------- Previous post was at 15:26 ----------

How do i get a graphic to show as my sig ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

In your User CP, go to signature, and underneath where you upload your avatar there is another box for uploading your sig. Upload it, return to the signature page and click the link next to it that says "Insert signature image" and {SIG PIC}{/SIGPIC} (with the square brackets) should appear inside the sig box.

Took me a while don't worry ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

How does webwise anti phishing compare to IE7 anti phishing?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

If this thing is cookie based would it not just be better to add the cookie to the blocked cookies list in your browser and that way if you do clear you cache it's still blocked.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The cookie tells your browser not to display the adverts sent from Phorm so is required on your PC not required to be blocked on your PC. An opt-out on a PC with blocked cookies will just fail (though the website will probably not bother telling you that).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Individuals, in trusted positions of authority, such as the Catholic church, have been abusing children a long time before the internet even existed.

If the technology does get modified so that government spy on the ordinary public, that also means that it can spy on our MPs (something that they don't seem very keen on with regards to other forms of electronic evesdropping - I wonder why?), and I predict that it will just drive criminals further underground making it even more difficult to catch them.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

if you were going to write to OFCOM in relation to any of this thread or thought they were setup and there to stand up for the UK consumer, it might be wise to read this new thereg story, very odd.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/03/lapdog_ofcom/
Ofcom stands up to Information Commissioner
...
Ofcom is going to the High Court to stop the British public getting access to a list of every mobile phone mast in the UK.

The telco regulator is appealing the Information Commissioner's decision that the public has the right to know where cellphone masts are located.
...
in 2007 an Information Tribunal upheld a Freedom of Information request and ruled that Ofcom must provide access to the Sitefinder database as a whole, in addition to allowing people to search small areas as they can now.

The network operators responded by saying they were under no obligation to provide the information, and if it was going to be shared in that fashion they might decide to keep it to themselves in future.

After three months of "constructive discussions" the mobile operators, excluding T-Mobile, have agreed to provide one last package of cell data while Ofcom takes the Information Commissioner to the High Court with their increasingly desperate claims about commercial confidentiality and terrorist risk.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I think someone already mentioned, but you need to >>

1: Have the image already saved onto computer (i.e. the desktop)

2: Then go into your User CP and under Edit Signature select Option 2 - Upload Image From Your Computer

3: Now browse to the image on your desktop and select it, then press the Preview Post button

4: Finally once it is showing in the preview window click the button Insert Signature Picture and it will add the correct BBcode straight into your sig area. NOTE: you need javascript enabled for this part to work


Hope that helps :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

It's strange this - many people aren't agreeing with this and have posted to say so but those who have voted 'No' are not saying why they have voted 'No', come on have something to say, 16 people like the idea but for some reason haven't told us why, tell us why you think this is a great idea, while your telling us - can we look through your fridge? Peer through your windows? After all you don't mind people watching you on the internet, so why would the other stuff bother you? ... :rolleyes:

Or perhaps they have voted 'No' to make a lame attempt at spoiling the poll.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

While i find it incredible to believe anyone is ok with this Mick it is people's right to vote how they want and not have to defend it. Like you i hope they voted no because thats what they believe rather then to spoil the poll. I think in a way it's quite funny that on this thread we are objecting to an invasion of privacy and you want people to giveup their privacy to answer you.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Thanks

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Mike, I assume you don't have a tesco clubcard* or similar. If you do, there is no real need for Tesco to come rifle through your fridge as you have already agreed to uniquely identify your buying habits to them.

This identification is to the extent that when you sign up to the on line shopping you get a customised list of the things you usually buy - as identified by your clubcard.

Tesco of course give you money for giving up such privacy. Would you be more amenable to this if you not Virgin got the money from Phorm?

* I use Tesco but this applies to any form of loyalty card - I'm not picking on Tesco specifically but using them to highlight a similar process many of us are bought into.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Remember they will also not mind the information from sites where they have made purchase's and from when ever they visit a site that relates to the bank if it is not secure. I do not trust Phorm in any way shape or Phorm. their history as 121 media means that should this be an OPT out and not an OP IN it will make them an automatic removal from my list of providers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

But with the shopping loyalty cards, you have to opt in, not opt out. A key difference since even if opted in you choose with each transaction if you then let them track what is being bought. Moreover, your shopping preferences are kept to that shop (unless you ticked the sell off my details box when you applied for a card), and not divulged to who knows who.

The Phorm scam works simply by checking everything whether you like it or not. The most you seem to be able to do is block the resulting ads. You are opted in to the scanning, like it or not. Worse your habits are being sent by your "trusted" supplier, with whom you do have privacy agreements, against your will, to unknown and possibly unscrupulous third parties of Phorm and their advertising partners.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

And thats the name for it. SCAM

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Part and parcel of this poll is to weigh up both sides of the arguement and I am trying to gauge opinion from those who have voted no. I have not asked anyone to give up their privacy at all, more or less get involve with democracy, get their voice heard. - All I am saying is that the people who have voted no, are obviously not bothered about the intrusion this Phorm is all about. It's on a par with and no different than me looking through someones windows, thus I am trying to understand and indeed interested in why some people think such a process like this is okay.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

SMHarman,

Equating the proposed spying by VM and Phorm with store cards does not correlate.

I have store cards and each and every time I pay for goods I can choose whether I say yes or no when I am asked if I am a card holder. I have to opt into the profiling system, in exchange for monetary inducements, each and every time. A more direct comparison with VM and Phorm would be if a staff member of a supermarket dogged every step that I took in a store and stuck an advert from a large book of adverts in my face. If a supermarket chain was to choose to take such a fast track to bankruptcy I think the staff allocated to such a task would require danger money.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

So thus far the analagy stands but the difference is the opt in or opt out aspect at a transactional level. Not the fact you are passing transactional data.
Though the supermarket sends you tailored offers and decides shop layout and promotional advertising that will appear in your store based on this data. You could say the store is doing it's best to shove ads in your face as you walk around. Wait until Tesco change their cards from barcode cards to RFID cards that will be read as you walk around the store.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Agreed, that swapping the cards to RFID based would be slightly more invasive, but you stilll have to both opt-in in the first place and also physically opt in by taking the card into the store every time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

SMHarman - your argument is valid when made against people who DO have a store loyalty card, but I am a Virgin Media broadband customer who has always chosen NOT to trade my buying habits for a minimal discount - I value my privacy more than £1.50 off my weekly shopping bill. So what argument can you put forward for ME having to endure a total loss of privacy and security on the internet?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

it dosent sound right,no way hosay !!.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Anyone know if BE Unlimited have made any statement about this Spyware ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...ewtopic.php?51

nothing formal so far, but others are apparently looking into it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Do Tesco send all their transactional data to a company run by people with a known history of morally repugnant and debatably legal behaviour? Do they use methods which differ from criminal behaviour only in so far as they are sanctioned by the ISP in question without referral to those whose personal data is being mistreated in this way? Do they send it to a company with roots in a country which has a deserved reputation for online crime and fraud, who process it on servers located in a country famous for repression and no privacy legislation at all? Do they take the information whether you want them to or not, and only allow you to "opt-out" of whether you receive the "benefits" of their data mining?

Equating supermarket clubcards with this is very wide of the mark.

This Phorm company is run by a guy who admits with no apparent trace of guilt to have been involved in installing adware and rootkits on users' systems without their knowledge in order to give them unwanted pop-up adverts (google PeopleOnPage for details. Both Symantec and F-Secure have this company listed as "spyware").

The technology is nothing short of an ISP-sanctioned man-in-the-middle attack, which if perpetrated by anyone other than an ISP would be illegal in most European countries, and may well in any case be illegal.

As far as I understand it, exporting personal data to other countries is in any case illegal unless an explicit opt-in (NOT out) has been obtained under the Data Protection Act. Phorm's excuse that they "anonymise" the data appears extremely flimsy according to those who have had a good look at what their system proposes to do.

It appears that the "opt-out" is purely that you will not have targeted adverts - your data will still be processed by these servers whether you have opted out or not.



Even if the above were not the case, there is absolutely no benefit at all to the end user of this technology. It will add lag to your connection, provide "phishing protection" which is already built in to Windows if using Windows and available free from other providers if not - without having adverts shoved in your face. It adds no value at all to their service and sells everything you do online to people who have no business looking at it - is that really what you want?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Tescos certainly have much more personal data on ther card holders than Phorm will ever have. Name Address, e-mail, phone, as a minimum and lots more depending on what you have used your card for. This is more than just what websites you have been browsing. And they do targetted ads.

One example springs to mind when a female custoemr rang Tescos to ask why they had sent her money off coupons for condoms. She was very insistent that she and her husband never used them. The customer service rep at the other end then confirmed that according to their records condoms had indeed been purchased and a clubcard used. I guess hubby had some explaining to do.:D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

... and way, way over there in the distance is the point...

At every single transaction, Tesco have to ask me whether or not I wish to use a Clubcard (i.e. give them the ability to correlate what I am buying with my Clubcard account), and that's even if I choose to allow them to collate this data in the first place by carrying a Clubcard. Phorm get this information whether or not I wish them to.

Phorm say they "anonymise" email addresses and numbers longer than 3 digits long. My address is, say "94 Road Street, Townville, TV3 8BJ". How many email addresses and strings of digits are in that? How many emails to a web mail account from any web retailer e.g. confirming a delivery addresses will it take for Phorm to have access to this information? How many numeric digits long is your name?

There is no consent sought or given by Phorm, there is no _real_ opt-out, it _should_ be opt-in, they are run by people who I wouldn't trust with my full name, let alone my browsing data, they will be processing _and_ "anonymising" all of the data AFTER it arrives in China (where, incidentally, people care even less about all our Data Protection laws than formerly reputable companies like BT and VM here do), and we apparently have to trust these crooks?

Where exactly is the benefit to us here? What part of the above sounds like a good idea? Targeted adverts on the internet, where I already block all adverts I can and actively avoid giving money to those companies whose ads I can't block? "Phishing protection" which is given away free by reputable companies rather than apparently "reformed" purveyors of scumware?

Well, no. If Virgin continue with this, then I quit. You may be happy being treated like a hole used expressly for the purpose of vomiting money into VM shareholders' pockets, but 95% of people on this forum aren't. They can stuff their poxy ad revenue: the day they start running this scam is the day I cancel every one of their services.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The day they start this I will borrow money to pay BT to put a new line in and go with Aquiss.net. They have already stated they will not use this.. http://forums.aquiss.net/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3457

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I'm not arguing for. I agree with you and I think that this last few postings has highlighted the differences between and opt in and opt out process extremely well.

Which US ISPs are using this software? After all this is a US company you would think they would market to their home territory first!?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Put your toys back in the pram. I never said I agreed with it. Just pointing out that there are many other things out there that are just as bad if not worse. Sky already sell data on and that does include e-mails & tel nos. Phorm say they do not get e-mails or addresses yet you say they do how do you know better? There has been one (probably premature) press release from Phorm and the world and his wife have set themselves up as experts on the subject spreading wild rumours about what it can or cannot do yet nothing is agreed as yet. Wait for more information and then see. It may be a problem or it may not depending on how it is done. What BT do may be different to what CPW or VM do. Until we know more it is pointless people getting worked up about it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

If that ISP is not a LLU ISP then its data will travel through BT's server's and network and will if you think about it be open to abuse. Remember BT have already sold data to Phorm without there users Knowledge or permission so therefor i would not put it past BT to use ANY data being carried on there network and passing through there servers. A LLU ISP will not be subject to this of course as they do NOT use BT's backbone. Think about what i have just said and it is possible for BT to do it.

---------- Post added at 07:37 ---------- Previous post was at 07:33 ----------


There is a simple matter over this. The company that they were is a company i NEVER want within a mile of my data never mind computer. Mark my words they WILL work they way up to a full blown spyware package, Its what they are renowned for. ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I think you're missing the point a little.

It isn't about what it can and cannot do, but that it is being done at all and is totally without our consent. Based on the head guys checkered past, there are also serious trust concerns. Personally, I wouldn't trust him with a shopping list written on a scrap of paper.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Might want to take note of these guys ISPA - http://www.ispa.org.uk/about_us/
The Internet Services Providers' Association (ISPA UK) is the UK's Trade Association for providers of Internet services.

Seems they have a significant swagger in getting Virgin to resolve issues and complaints. See here - http://bbs.adslguide.org.uk/showflat...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Might be worth bookmarking them for future use, especially those caught up halfway through a 12-month contract :S

Their online complaints form can be found here - http://www.ispa.org.uk/cgi-bin/complaints.cgi

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Not without your explicit consent they don't (you _will_ have had to tick or untick a box somewhere at some point to consent to this). If you ask for it, fine. This is different.

There is good information on how it works available from people who have actually looked at the way the BT experiment was run last year (again without consent).

Phorm have explained exactly what they throw away on their website: "Phorm technology does not view any information on secure (HTTPS) pages, and ignores strings of numbers longer than three digits to ensure that we do not collect credit card numbers, phone numbers, National Insurance or other potentially private information."

How many addresses and names conform to those parameters? Fair enough, that may change, but that's the information we have right now. Does that sound like enough to you?

The company is a "reformed" known spyware/scumware operator who have used rootkit techniques in the past. Would you let Ian Huntley work as a primary school teacher? Would you let Jerome Kerviel run a hedge fund?

It's not just random shouting and toy/pram ejection. I'd say the most sensible option is not to wait and see whatever harvesting these crooks think they can get away with next, but to voice objections loudly right now, before VM/BT etc. get the idea that their customers really are sheep. If you don't let them know, and threaten them the only way it's actually possible to hurt them, by withdrawing your custom, then they will think this is acceptable behaviour and expand it. It is not.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

And how many postcodes have only three numbers meaning your entire address can be captured? Dates of birth can also be captured if a short format dd-mmm-yy style is used. This is blatantly unsafe technology.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Forgive me if I'm wrong as just had a quick scan of the thread.

Can this technology detect and replace ad blocks running on this site. (And others such as mine)?

If so then it has little to do with protecting users from spam and more to do with pure greed. If 70% of UK users get ads served by their isp then I stand to lose a fair amount of money.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

No you would sign up to this just as you would Google Ads. Its your choice as a web site to use the adverts or not. Still waiting for confirmation whether Cable Forum plan on using the ads once it goes live because if they do then they are as bad ad Virgin and the others.

---------- Post added at 09:55 ---------- Previous post was at 09:50 ----------

This has got to be the most sensible post on here in regards to this topic.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Postcodes (and for that matter, addresses) are largely text, so would be picked up by Phorm..

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

No the website has to decide to display ads that are served up by Phorm's system instead of whatever ads it currently displays.

The ISP makes it's money by recieving a payment from Phorm for the installation of Phorms spyware electronics onto the ISPs network. Phorm make their money by selling ad space through their OIX system. Presumably therefore they would have to pay website owners for the spot's on the page, rather like google adsense, or other such systems do today.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

This really does sound like another part of britain's technology to add to britains Big brother, and how privacy seems to have gone flying out the window!

Im sorry, but this seems like some HUGE scam and privacy infringment, I mean how dare they even suggest this. Surely this goes against every kind of data protection acts you can think of!!

From the things i've read about this company, this sounds like the scam of the century. If this goes ahead, I will lose faith in humanity :(

Plus I would connect via proxy ALL THE TIME JUST TO STOP THEM WATCHING EVERY SINGLE THING I DO!

I mean, do we have any privacy left in our country? Or even the world?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I really hate the idea of this technology, It's not so much the thoughts of my ISP knowing my browsing habits, it the fact they want to sell/pass this info onto a third party, seems like the very definition if invasion of privacy to me.

Anyway, I know E-petitions usually don't get anywhere, but there is a petition about this on the 10 downing street website if anyone would care to view and maybe sign it:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I personally dont remember seeing anything in VMs t&c or small print about selling or passing on your data, but i do remember seeing something about privacy. If VM go ahead with this they should get People to sign a new contract. I for one will not sign an agreement that allows any form of spyware & will move to a company that follows my views on it

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/03/04/phorm_ripa/
Data pimping: surveillance expert raises illegal wiretap worries
Have you got a warrant for that marketing probe?

By Chris Williams → More by this author
Published Tuesday 4th March 2008 13:07 GMT

A leading expert on computer surveillance has raised serious doubts over the legality of deals by BT, Virgin Media and Carphone Warehouse to sell their customers' web browsing data to Phorm, a new online advertising company.

Professor Peter Sommer, the author of the groundbreaking 1980s book The Hacker's Handbook and a frequent expert witness in data crime trials, said the plan to monitor the contents of the websites people visit in order to target advertising could fall foul of the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000 (RIPA).

Commenting on BT network diagrams that describe the system, obtained by The Register, Professor Sommer said: "Whatever the parties involved say, this appears to be an interception under RIPA. The real issue will be about how consent is obtained."

...
Virgin Media told us today: "Virgin Media is still some way from deploying Webwise. We will roll-out the system once we are completely satisfied that our implementation meets all applicable privacy guidelines and complies with all data protection requirements."

Potential violation of RIPA through an unlawful interception is a separate issue to requirements under the Data Protection Act, however.
...
"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

US ZIP codes 90210-1234 on the other hand are all numeric. While the Standard ZIP code is very similar to the first block of digits on a UK post code allocating to a sorting office or generic region, e.g. EC1A, the +4 aspect is like the second part, allocating to a smaller block of properties, the 1HQ (or 1234) part of the above example

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

This seems to sum it up I don't think the large ISPs have thought about the legality of this action...
author of 'The Hacker's Handbook' (1980's) Professor Peter Sommer, warns about this and the link below shows this could conflict with the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act (RIPA): as posted in the News on ISPreview

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000...1-ch1-pb1-l1g1

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Looks like channel4 news has picked up the story - http://www.channel4.com/news/article...g+deal/1703547

I'd have thought the BBC would have picked it up before channel4, but heyho, maybe they will now.

Mainstream news coverage it what we need more of to let the average joe know whats going on. Once the masses realize they are being hoodwinked by their ISP I think their will be a huge consumer backlash over this, and rightly so!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I've just thought of a major major problem i may have with this. Am i right in think that PHORM will be able to view everything i do in non-secure forums but private forums?

I'm am an Admin for one of the most successful non-commercial gaming servers out there (Cain's Lair). And we have a lot of sensitive data in our admin forum sections like Admin phone numbers from around the globe, server passwords etc. Does this mean they'll be able to see all this? :shocked:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Oh Yes. Absolutely. Even though they say they don't, doesn't physically stop from doing it. I mean, lets say they can be called "monitors". So I ask everyone this...

Who monitors the monitors?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

This could be a very big security problem for my community. :shocked:

One more thing. Isn't the fact that they will see the inside of a view/post by signing up only forum be a breach of privacy?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I understand your concern, your personal details (and everyones elses) could be up for grabs for the people who work for/with phorm!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Looks like i have an arguement against them then. Especially as one of my major jobs is looking and checking every signup IP address for bad users.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I just called up CS.. And she didn't know anything about it.. and said if this was going to happen they would be briefed...

Has anyone called hem up and heard different??

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

They'll probably play dumb until it's actually in use. :mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Well the technology is available (somebody posted about a patent), so presumably law-enforcement agencies could use it.

Yes - and what are we doing about it? Why not use technology to try and stop some of this?

I voted "No". If this technology can help to catch paedophiles, I'm all for it. Letting Phorm know about my browsing habits seems a very small price to pay.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

So you dont mind someone being able to look at your bank details, emails etc... I am.. Why should innocent people have there details looked at??

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I've spoke to customer relations, customer service and cancellations and none of them had heard anything at there end just from people ringing in

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Just had a email back from BE Unlimited .

Dear ++++++++++++

Thank you for contacting us. I would like to inform you that we are not intending to sign up with Phorm. Also in order to have our service you should have a working BT phone line.

If you have any further questions feel free to contact at 0808 234 8566.


Well Done BE Unlimited, Looks like they will be getting a new customer.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Customer service are unlikely to be told anything about this until Virgin have decided when and how they will implement it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Good for you, very noble.

However, I'm not so noble, and so seems over 95% of voters in this poll, so we say stuff Phorm and stuff the ISP that lays in bed with them!!!

I'm all for catching pedo's, but not at the expense of everyones privacy. You say a very small price, I'd say down right extortionate!!!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

I can concur with this. Either VM staff have been instructed to deny all knowledge regarding this issue, or all of the various VM services, I.e retentions, customer service, Etc (I've spoken to) genuinely have no idea what's going on - which (from dialogue feedback - I feel) could actually the case. :erm:

One thing though, everyone I've contacted have seen and are now aware of this forum ;)

Interesting! :erm:

Si thee :Sprint:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Such Technology already exists - how do you think they have busted previous paedophile internet rings?

Anyway - such a job should be up to law enforcements not third party market analysts pushing relevant ads our way.

Do you honestly think Phorm will get dragged into legal affairs? It will just go to show their 'privacy' statement is flawed and that they can identify data to its owners, something which they are denying cannot happen.

But well done you just wasted a vote if you thought it help to catch paedophiles.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

EY apparently.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Who monitors EY? ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Don't forget the terrorists too and the witches who refuse to drown :rolleyes:.

This has nothing to do with law enforcement or illegal activity, its all down to VM and Phorm trying to make money out of your privacy or lack of it.

If you want to consider the children, imagine a scenario where a child visits the NSPCC site looking for help, then the next day the abusing relative gets embedded adverts relating to child protection charities tipping that relative off.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

LOL, exactly!

The viscous circle continues!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The plot thickens........

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Wow. What I wouldn't give to have the old blueyonder back :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Me too :(

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

The ICAEW in the UK or the AICPA in the USA.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

If I thought it would be used for that by the relevant people (i.e. law enforcement) then I wouldn't argue against it so strongly (in fact I agree with that particular use). But as Phorm had about as much interest in law enforcement as a fish does a bicycle then I don't agree with it.

Not to mention that their history is about as comforting as a bullet through the foot...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 

Anything to do with this?

"RIAA chief calls for copyright filters on PCs"

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...for_end_users/

You can bet that this goes well beyond what is currently being discussed.

The ultimate aim is a Chinese-style internet service...



/tin foil