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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

none 29-02-2008 16:40

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popper
BTW None, i get
Download Error

You do not have the correct permissions to download this file.

when trying to download your template letter to read

Thanx for the heads up popper, although I have just checked and it seems to working just fine. Can someone else try to access this page and see if they can download the VM complaints template - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/download.php?list.2

Let me know if the link still doesn't work for you.

Toto 29-02-2008 16:43

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34498004)
Thanx for the heads up popper, although I have just checked and it seems to working just fine. Can someone else try to access this page and see if they can download the VM complaints template - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/download.php?list.2

Let me know if the link still doesn't work for you.

Yup.

Download Error

You do not have the correct permissions to download this file

none 29-02-2008 16:44

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Opps my bad, seems you need to be logged into the site to enable the download. You can register here - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/signup.php

Traduk 29-02-2008 16:46

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Rizzyking,

The statement from Sky is cleverly crafted with the important element being their concern for customer safety online and privacy.

If they subsequently state that after detailed and careful appraisal that they will not jeopardise their customer's safety and privacy by using any of these companies it will carry a lot of weight backed by knowledge and will carry much more weight than others may exploit customers we will not. The use of the words "online safety and privacy" speaks volumes.

brundles 29-02-2008 17:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
More from the Register:
How Phorm plans to tap your internet connection
The Phorm Files

none 29-02-2008 17:15

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34498006)
Yup.

Download Error

You do not have the correct permissions to download this file

Ive uploaded the file VM Phorm DPA Complaint.pdf (7.07 KB) to Mediafile - http://www.mediafire.com/?b00jbvjabdd

Mick 29-02-2008 17:30

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by brundles (Post 34498026)

So herein lies some extra info - No matter if BB users of said ISPs are opted out of the system, Phorm still knows what people are looking at:

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Reg
A presentation doing the rounds at BT suggests two possible scenarios. The first alternative is that "ACE" in these diagrams checks whether a user has opted out of their browsing history being used to target advertising, and the process ends there and a normal HTTP request is sent to the website the user is visiting. The second possibility is that the opt-out check is performed once the request has been diverted all the way to the Anonymiser. That would mean Phorm still knows what you're looking at.

Reading further in those articles...

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Reg
We tapped Aaron Crane, The Register's Technical Overlord for help bending our puny scribe's brain around these diagrams. He said: "Looking at this makes me damn glad my own internet connection is funded by what I pay for it, so the ISP doesn't have to engage in this sort of shady practice merely to cover costs.

"If I were using one of the ISPs concerned, I'd switch."


Shaun 29-02-2008 17:30

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
That letter seems to ahve someones full name and address in it - should it? :erm:

popper 29-02-2008 18:16

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
also its a doc file (not everyone uses MS OS or word) and not a plain text file or PDF for easy printing.

---------- Post added at 17:16 ---------- Previous post was at 16:56 ----------

as a side note (or perhaps not) Mick it also says in part this:
"
For users who don't opt out, the way the system works is much more clear (see "Active mode" slide). Hit a link in your browser and the HTTP request will be intercepted by the ACE and rerouted to Phorm's Anonymiser. Having hijacked the request, the Anonymiser can then set a tracking cookie, which it keeps hold of.

Without a response, the browser resubmits its request for the web page you want to visit. It is again rerouted to Phorm, but only as far as the F5 hardware, which bounces it on to the website you originally wanted, but also sends a copy of the request to Phorm's profiler kit"

why do i bring this up ,well remember the VM STM upload allowance, it appears that the Phorm kit will force you to send at least two page requests per page weather you are opted-in or opted-out.

not a problem ,EXCEPT the VM STM counts every single bit of data sent and that includes all the internal VM network data you send too.

its true, i personly tested the STM a while back when it first began, by uploading/downloaded to/from nothing but my VM internal personal website and the internal VM linux FTP server etc, and the STM kicked in as expected when my data allowance went over, even though not one single bit went outside the VM internal network.

so in relation to VM at least, every extra data stream you are forced to re-send due to the Phorm internal VM kit is taking your already limited upload limit away faster...

Mick 29-02-2008 18:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Still - I don't care how much Phorm or any of the ISPs say this protects privacy. If smaller ISP's such as Aquiss and Zen can work out that this is just a revenue earning stream. The three main ISPs attached to this, have so many BB customers that greed has overidden complete regard for every ounce of customer trust and there should be a bigger respect for the very basic human right, a right to absolute privacy.

popper 29-02-2008 18:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
OC 'In Good Faith' doesnt seem to count for anything outside the courts eather, or at least inside the Big VM/BT type corps.

none 29-02-2008 18:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun
That letter seems to ahve someones full name and address in it - should it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by popper
also its a doc file (not everyone uses MS OS or word) and not a plain text file or PDF for easy printing.


Done & done - VM Phorm DPA Complaint.pdf (7.07 KB) - http://www.mediafire.com/?b00jbvjabdd

hope that helps

aMIGA_dUDE 29-02-2008 20:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Do they know about Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
and Unlawful interception. It not just Data Protection Act issue

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/acts/a...1-ch1-pb1-l1g1

none 29-02-2008 20:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
About time this got some mainstream media attention, Guardian - http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...ring_deal.html even this thread is mentioned!

aMIGA_dUDE 29-02-2008 21:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Opt out cookie will not work with me. As my security settings in all browsers is set to delete cookies when browser is closed.

Berealwith 29-02-2008 21:17

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Here's a thought.......there must be something out there that, you can set to open a web page then it holds a page for 5 secs then switches at ramdom to another, set it with a time say 4 hours a day.........how cool would that be, just spam em with a load of crap info.............Is there anything out there ?

JackSon 29-02-2008 21:25

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Am unsure if data generated by that will be any less valuable to Phorm than regular. I imagine that the data they can collect, whether it legitimate browsing or not gets sold in exactly the same way. And if it just a matter of selling in bulk, if you are 'spamming' them with data you are acually doing them a favour maybe.

none 29-02-2008 21:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Berealwith (Post 34498190)
Here's a thought.......there must be something out there that, you can set to open a web page then it holds a page for 5 secs then switches at ramdom to another, set it with a time say 4 hours a day.........how cool would that be, just spam em with a load of crap info.............Is there anything out there ?

I think the trackMeNot Firefox extension kinda does what you are looking for I think. It sends out junk queries to popular search-engines to help obfuscate your browsing patterns

JackSon 29-02-2008 21:32

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Another possibility of having something make your browser visit large numbers of random web pages is that it will increae the range of your profile, listing you as interested in loads of things, more than you would be normally perhaps, and thus making your profile suitable to be sold to more of Phorm's advertising clients as you are classed as a potential interestee.

SMHarman 29-02-2008 21:52

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34498182)
About time this got some mainstream media attention, Guardian - http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...ring_deal.html even this thread is mentioned!

Not only mentioned but the 95% opt out in the survey is the headline!

The article analagises (is that a word sounds like something you would take for a headache) to Googles tracking abilities, however you chose to visit Google to search, you could equally visit Ask, Yahoo, or one of many other search engines.

You can of course change your ISP however that is a little more of a task than typing yahoo.com instead of google.com and as the major ISPs all seem to be opting in the change will be difficult if there is no alternative.

cookie_365 29-02-2008 22:05

HTTPS - Could they interecept if they wanted to?
 
Can one of the techies among you just clarify this?

They say that they won't view information on https pages. Is that because it's technically impossible for Virgin to 'see' what's on an https page and so impossible to pass it on to Phorm, and that they therefore CAN'T view it, or just that they're trying to persuade us that they are choosing not to view it even though they COULD?

ahardie 29-02-2008 22:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34498182)
About time this got some mainstream media attention, Guardian - http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/technolo...ring_deal.html even this thread is mentioned!

Good article. This quote (if true) seems to dispel a lot of the alarmist talk in this thread.
Quote:

So, no personal information about you. No IP address information. Your search history and pages visited aren't stored. But many people are uneasy about it, feeling that it's spying.
I still would prefer them not to do this but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

CaptJamieHunter 29-02-2008 22:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Submission to the ICO made via their website and letter sent to Virgin Media. Thanks for the template too.

As someone who's only ever been with Telewest/Virgin for their broadband provision (had way too many dial up ISPs to remember though!), is there a helpful doc on how to go about getting an alternative ISP set up?

I loathe BT and don't want to give them any more money than I absolutely have to if I do switch.

cookie_365 29-02-2008 22:56

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ahardie (Post 34498209)
Good article. This quote (if true) seems to dispel a lot of the alarmist talk in this thread.
I still would prefer them not to do this but I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Except it's plainly not true. They WILL be monitoring personal information. I'm not sure about https info (see my post a couple back) but for ordinary http info they definitely will.

As an example, even the badphorm site itself has a registration page that isn't https. The page asks for (though doesn't demand) your real name. And also asks for a password. So regardless of whether you choose to opt out of the cookie thing Phorm will still see your name and password. If that isn't personal information I don't know what is. And given that people tend to reuse the same passwords on other sites that could be a way of discovering - say - bank account information.

In itself the cookie issue and the idea of having to opt out of having a general classification of your own browsing habits is a serious invasion of privacy, but it's a red herring. It's easily solved by blocking the cookie. Yes, you shouldn't need to have to do that, but there's your solution. All this talk about the cookie is diverting attention from the main issue:

Regardless of whether you like or not, a company which is not controlled by Virgin, has links to Russia, and is essentially the same company that has already been behind a malware/sypware attack, will be able to view the content of any web page (possibly excluding https pages) you browse to. Any web page. Including being able to view anything you enter into forms on those pages. Including email address fields, address fields, password fields. Bank account fields. National insurance number fields. Anything.

They say they won't store that information. How do I know? What guarantees have I got that they won't? Even if they don't intend to, how do I know they won't accidentally store that information in some kind of temporary file? How do I know that they none of their employees will maliciously tap into the data and steal it? How do I know that they won't be subject to court proceedings in some Orwellian banana republic - USA for instance :) and be legally required to release that information? How do I know that they won't contract out any of their processes to even shadier companies?

They say they won't monitor numbers. How do I know? How can I trust them not to?

I appreciate that Virgin itself can already monitor this information if it wants. However, for all their faults, Virgin is a huge brand with a reputation to protect who I have chosen to trust with my internet connection. I have not chosen to trust Phorm.

I've been extremely happy with Virgin so far, but this is the closest I've come to switching to landline BB. And I don't even have a BT landline.

none 29-02-2008 23:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
just read this - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...ewtopic.php?19

Response from Virginmedia
I am sorry that the information that we are going to start using phorm
has worried you, here is some information to help give you a better
understading in regards to what this is.

A safer experience

Webwise will help customers avoid scams, such as 'phishing' - this is
where someone pretends to be a well known brand, like a bank, but is
looking to steal confidential information. Users might receive an email
that appears to be authentic, asking them to enter details such as
account numbers and passwords, which are then stolen and used
fraudulently. Commonly known as 'phishing', these websites can be hard
to spot as they are designed to look just like genuine websites.

Webwise checks these sites against a list of fraudulent sites and warns
customers if they're heading to one. They're given the option to
continue to that site, so Webwise won't restrict their online experience
in any way, but at least they'll be able to decide for themselves, and
avoid the chance of this form of identity theft. In this way Webwise
helps to secure our customers' privacy.

A more relevant browsing experience

Another great thing about Webwise is that it can help reduce irrelevant
advertising. As customers browse web pages, Webwise looks at things like
search terms, and learns what topics might be of interest. This is done
without collecting any personal information, so once again their privacy
is protected. These topics are then used to help filter out adverts that
might be irrelevant - instead they'll simply see an advert that will
match a topic they're are more interested in.

Don't worry, they won't see any more adverts than they currently do,
they'll just be more relevant. For example if they searched for keywords
like 'Paris' and 'Eurostar', instead of random uninteresting adverts,
they might see an advert for French hotels instead.


Protecting customers' privacy

Webwise has been designed from the ground up to protect our customers'
privacy and anonymity. As the system only learns about topics of
interest, it does this anonymously, ensuring their privacy is completely
protected.

Neither the web addresses, nor search terms they use are stored. They
are purely matched to an advertising topic and then discarded.
Webwise doesn't store their internet (IP) address or keep track of their
browsing. The system or advertisers won't know who you are or the
websites they've visited.
No personally identifiable information such as email addresses,
surnames, street addresses, or phone numbers are ever gathered.
No sensitive or personal financial information, such as credit card
numbers, login IDs, passwords or bank account numbers are ever gathered.
We found that this system met our high standards for simplicity and
privacy - so customers' privacy is assured. These privacy standards were
also verified independently by Ernst & Young who conducted a detailed
audit of the whole process and Webwise solution.

Customers won't be forced to take up Webwise, so they'll be able to keep
their internet experience as it is now.

We're working to deliver the Webwise solution at the moment and we'll
let you know when it's ready to be 'switched on'. Given the benefits of
Webwise, we're pleased to be offering this to our customers soon, making
your web experience safer and more relevant.




what a load of old toot, all under the guise of A safer experience ... pleeeeassseeeeee someone pass me the sick bucket!!!!!!!

CaptJamieHunter 29-02-2008 23:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I've posted on the Guardian blog page mentioned earlier. The author seems to have missed the point slightly, saying that there is no identiable information passed to Phorm. Simplistic, naive or apologising for Phorm? As you say cookie, it's about trusting Phorm. We don't and we're asking questions.

lucevans 29-02-2008 23:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cookie_365 (Post 34498224)
Except it's plainly not true. They WILL be monitoring personal information. I'm not sure about https info (see my post a couple back) but for ordinary http info they definitely will.

As an example, even the badphorm site itself has a registration page that isn't https. The page asks for (though doesn't demand) your real name. And also asks for a password. So regardless of whether you choose to opt out of the cookie thing Phorm will still see your name and password. If that isn't personal information I don't know what is. And given that people tend to reuse the same passwords on other sites that could be a way of discovering - say - bank account information.

In itself the cookie issue and the idea of having to opt out of having a general classification of your own browsing habits is a serious invasion of privacy, but it's a red herring. It's easily solved by blocking the cookie. Yes, you shouldn't need to have to do that, but there's your solution. All this talk about the cookie is diverting attention from the main issue:

Regardless of whether you like or not, a company which is not controlled by Virgin, has links to Russia, and is essentially the same company that has already been behind a malware/sypware attack, will be able to view the content of any web page (possibly excluding https pages) you browse to. Any web page. Including being able to view anything you enter into forms on those pages. Including email address fields, address fields, password fields. Bank account fields. National insurance number fields. Anything.

They say they won't store that information. How do I know? What guarantees have I got that they won't? Even if they don't intend to, how do I know they won't accidentally store that information in some kind of temporary file? How do I know that they none of their employees will maliciously tap into the data and steal it? How do I know that they won't be subject to court proceedings in some Orwellian banana republic - USA for instance :) and be legally required to release that information? How do I know that they won't contract out any of their processes to even shadier companies?

They say they won't monitor numbers. How do I know? How can I trust them not to?

I appreciate that Virgin itself can already monitor this information if it wants. However, for all their faults, Virgin is a huge brand with a reputation to protect who I have chosen to trust with my internet connection. I have not chosen to trust Phorm.

I've been extremely happy with Virgin so far, but this is the closest I've come to switching to landline BB. And I don't even have a BT landline.

Thank you. You've just summed-up exactly how I feel about this. Did Virgin really think that their customers wouldn't care if they did this? Surely no company (not even one as clueless as Virgin sometimes appear to be) could be that out-of-touch with their customer base?

JackSon 29-02-2008 23:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cookie_365 (Post 34498224)
Virgin is a huge brand with a reputation to protect who I have chosen to trust with my internet connection. I have not chosen to trust Phorm.

That really is a brilliant statement. QFT

aMIGA_dUDE 29-02-2008 23:45

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JackSon (Post 34498192)
Am unsure if data generated by that will be any less valuable to Phorm than regular. I imagine that the data they can collect, whether it legitimate browsing or not gets sold in exactly the same way. And if it just a matter of selling in bulk, if you are 'spamming' them with data you are acually doing them a favour maybe.

No you wouldn't. The more rubbish they get worse there business will become. It a big issue even for likes of google.

http://www.schneier.com/essay-119.html

Now it would be trivial implemented this to make it imposable for them to know if this is going on. All the source code is already been made public with Firefox. Also it would be possible to gain information on business which advertise with this service. As such we could also hit them where it hurts as publishing list business that do business with Phorm would be easy as they Phorm will have to tell us to make money this is there akilies heal. Then go on to embargo those business with filters.

PS Phorm will not like have title of SPYCOMS, i don't care sue me!
Spying with communications in anyway then that is SPYCOMS.
Well done Phorm you have honer of being first business in the world to have title of SPYCOMS.

eth01 29-02-2008 23:52

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Haha. Theres more than one way to skin a rabbit..

JackSon 29-02-2008 23:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Think I need some guidance here, as I don't see 'click-through fraud' as being relevant here.

I still only see the potential for a VM customers unique serial number of being labelled as interested in almost everything if the afore mentioned 'random page generator' were utilised - thus making that customer marketable to every advertiser on Phorm's books. All events on targeted adverts being clicked on (fraudulently or otherwise) surely happen after a customer's serial has been already marketted based on the mined data.

lucevans 01-03-2008 00:09

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34498245)
just read this - http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...ewtopic.php?19

Response from Virginmedia
[i]I am sorry that the information that we are going to start using phorm
has worried you, here is some information to help give you a better
understading in regards to what this is.

A safer experience

<snip>

A more relevant browsing experience

<snip>

Protecting customers' privacy

<snip>

what a load of old toot, all under the guise of A safer experience ... pleeeeassseeeeee someone pass me the sick bucket!!!!!!!

How unbelievably patronizing! This response reads like something written for the benefit of a five-year-old!

-We KNOW what the real agenda is here (selling commercially-valuable private data on your customers)...

-We don't WANT it dressed-up as a benevolent act of kindness ("A safer experience") - I for one want to take responsibilty for my OWN security on the web thank you very much - I understand what Phishing is, and I can decide whether a website is dodgy or not for myself.

-How dare YOU decide what is a more "relevant" web experience for ME: I never read adverts and I'm certainly not going to start now. For future reference: ALL advertising is irrelevant to this user. Got it? If I had my way, every website would be ad-free like bbc.co.uk

-We DON'T trust your assertions about our privacy in this system. We have no way to verify them, and NEITHER DO YOU once you've passed our private data to somebody else.

-You are deliberately MISLEADING customers when you state "Customers won't be forced to take up Webwise, so they'll be able to keep their internet experience as it is now." Most people reading this sentence will take it to mean that if they opt-out then you will not pass any browsing data about them on to Phorm. However, "Webwise" is only the system that alerts users to phishing sites and pushes targeted adverts at the user - the browsing surveillance part of the system is called "Open Internet Exchange" (OIX), and you are not saying that customers won't be forced to take up OIX, are you?

A safer experience my Arrse.

And that bit at the bottom is depressing - "working to offer the solution and pleased to be offering it soon" - makes it sound imminent and certain....

-

aMIGA_dUDE 01-03-2008 00:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by JackSon (Post 34498258)
Think I need some guidance here, as I don't see 'click-through fraud' as being relevant here.

I still only see the potential for a VM customers unique serial number of being labelled as interested in almost everything if the afore mentioned 'random page generator' were utilised - thus making that customer marketable to every advertiser on Phorm's books.

It same as Click-through fraud by:-
1) Making there data pointless.
When business see this is happen the value of information drops.
2) Gaining information who do business is.
Business do not like embargoes due there advertising activities.
3) Add's will be pointless as add's are not being viewed.

Then invoice Virgin Media to bypass this dumb SPYCOMS activity. I do not believe there is anyway this activity would be legal Unfair and terms law.

JackSon 01-03-2008 00:29

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Sorry, I see those as two seperate issues. I don't see any necessity for data to be 'graded' upon collection for its accuracy to whether it is genuinely an interest of the customer or if it is the result of the random page generator. I suspect Phorm aren't going to care either, as they are scoring a hit between an interest and a vendor, that just equals a rental of the virtual billboard. If no sales happen then vendors may cease advertising but I doubt they willl; after all adverts still appear in newspapers and magazines with no real way of gauging their 'usefulness'. What I'm getting at here is do we know that Phorm are following the same model as Google and get paid for advert clicks/sales; I think it is more likely that with their closed targetting system they can just rent out virtual ad space on a billboard basis - thus taking no real immediate risk on the sucess/failure of the adverts. In that light, I believe click-through fraud is of no consequence whatsoever, and also means Phorm just have to supply data and not qualify it.

In any rate, I do hope that the operation does get reversed so we don't have to worry ourselves over the ins and outs :)

brundles 01-03-2008 00:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34498265)
A safer experience my Arrse.

And that bit at the bottom is depressing - "working to offer the solution and pleased to be offering it soon" - makes it sound imminent and certain....

-

That pretty much sums things up - and I'm definitely worried about the "offering it soon" line. Unfortunately I'm among those who don't have much choice but Virgin - for our use we can't get an acceptable speed on ADSL :(

MovedGoalPosts 01-03-2008 01:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Please do not copy and paste large sections of content from other sites. That is a breach of copyright. By all means quote a small highlighted section to aid your discussion, but do ensure there are clear links to the original.

aMIGA_dUDE 01-03-2008 08:23

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
The People Vs SPYCOMS

This is a list that will block internet activities with Phorn
It will be updated in time
Save the host file on windows to
Windows/System32/drivers/etc/hosts

This list is in a alfa state (ie pre beta)

http://rapidshare.com/files/96092346/hosts

Toto 01-03-2008 09:26

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aMIGA_dUDE (Post 34498331)
The People Vs SPYCOMS

This is a list that will block internet activities with Phorn
It will be updated in time
Save the host file on windows to
Windows/System32/drivers/etc/hosts

This list is in a alfa state (ie pre beta)

http://rapidshare.com/files/96092346/hosts

Before anybody does this, please review the list in that hosts file. Many popular sites are listed. Only use this file if you ABSOLUTELY want to block all Virgin, BT, SKY and TALK TALK websites.

I think its a bit extreme to be honest, although I can see why some would want to do this.

If you want a grin, look at the comments on the hosts file.......goooood English.

lucevans 01-03-2008 10:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob (Post 34498308)
Please do not copy and paste large sections of content from other sites. That is a breach of copyright. By all means quote a small highlighted section to aid your discussion, but do ensure there are clear links to the original.

Apologies Rob. I thought it was a letter from VM to it's customers who had complained about the Phorm tie-up - I didn't realise it was copyrighted material from another website. Thank you for the edit.

---------- Post added at 09:14 ---------- Previous post was at 08:59 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34498346)
Before anybody does this, please review the list in that hosts file. Many popular sites are listed. Only use this file if you ABSOLUTELY want to block all Virgin, BT, SKY and TALK TALK websites.

I think its a bit extreme to be honest, although I can see why some would want to do this.

If you want a grin, look at the comments on the hosts file.......goooood English.

One glaring omission in that list.... webwise.com !!

eddcase 01-03-2008 12:36

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
The 2 most popular threads on the forum are about the free upgrade and this Phorm initiative. The timing of the upgrade is starting to look like a coincidental sweetener that may be working.

The best Phorm of defense is attack :) .

none 01-03-2008 13:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eddcase (Post 34498415)
The 2 most popular threads on the forum are about the free upgrade and this Phorm initiative. The timing of the upgrade is starting to look like a coincidental sweetener.

The best Phorm of defense is attack :) .

Indeed lol

Whats the point of having a speed upgrade if you have to slow it down with TOR in order to preserve what should already be a given ... your privacy

---------- Post added at 12:07 ---------- Previous post was at 11:51 ----------

If you want to speak to someone about Phorm and how it will supposedly work you can try ringing VM’s retentions department on - tel: 0800 052 0870

This so far has been the only department that seems to be able to verbally relay any information regarding Phorm. One can only assume that there have been numerous cancellation enquires due to Phorm, and as such the retentions guys have been ‘readily briefed’ as to what to say.

So, did it alleviate my concerns and fears?

Hell no, not even close! Phorm (webwise) was completely and utterly played down as being nothing more than harmless marketing info. TBH I was almost lost for words with their woolly explanation of how it worked. As if somehow I was the overreacting fool for being so concerned with it!!!

So,

Has anyone else rung retentions to querry Phorm (webwise)?

If so, what were you told?

Did it put your mind at rest?

mertle 01-03-2008 14:23

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
O posted this in another area not realising this thread.

So how is VM going to monitor PHORM make sure they dont abuse us. I found it will monitor and pound us with junk advertising based on every single thing we do with our connection even reading emails. Surely this deal against our civil libities.

ps dont think you will get away with by saying vm can stuff it BT & Talk Talk done it too.

Link explaining Phorm and its evil empire

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?3

Oh by the way peeps OPT OUT does NOT safguard you they WILL STILL SEND your activities to PHORM.

AS ALL 3 main internet providers doing it you are screwed in the uk.

I think this is a hidden agenda and its not about advertising or keeping you safe from so called phisching its about finding out if you do things illegal.

In some ways I am for it if stops those 5% from raping the bandwidth but everyone could find the nasty men knocking on the door.

How mainy done some simple browsing and sites got hacked and sent you to nasty websites.

There is real danger this can easily be abused for the wrong reason who is to say our protected internet banking activities will be secure anymore.

VM and the rest are stupid.

Stuart 01-03-2008 14:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aMIGA_dUDE (Post 34498331)
The People Vs SPYCOMS

This is a list that will block internet activities with Phorn
It will be updated in time
Save the host file on windows to
Windows/System32/drivers/etc/hosts

This list is in a alfa state (ie pre beta)

http://rapidshare.com/files/96092346/hosts

However, that list will not stop the monitoring you. Also, blocking zavvi is a little pointless. They have nothing to do with virgin.

Also, it will block access to websites linked to the three isps and phorm. It will not stop them monitoring you.

Sirius 01-03-2008 14:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34498449)
O posted this in another area not realising this thread.

So how is VM going to monitor PHORM make sure they dont abuse us. I found it will monitor and pound us with junk advertising based on every single thing we do with our connection even reading emails. Surely this deal against our civil libities.

ps dont think you will get away with by saying vm can stuff it BT & Talk Talk done it too.

Link explaining Phorm and its evil empire

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/page.php?3

Oh by the way peeps OPT OUT does NOT safguard you they WILL STILL SEND your activities to PHORM.

AS ALL 3 main internet providers doing it you are screwed in the uk.

I think this is a hidden agenda and its not about advertising or keeping you safe from so called phisching its about finding out if you do things illegal.

In some ways I am for it if stops those 5% from raping the bandwidth but everyone could find the nasty men knocking on the door.

How mainy done some simple browsing and sites got hacked and sent you to nasty websites.

There is real danger this can easily be abused for the wrong reason who is to say our protected internet banking activities will be secure anymore.

VM and the rest are stupid.

I have made it totally clear to them that should this be a OPT OUT not a OPT IN then i will remove ALL my services from them.

I will then go to

BT for Phone.
Sky for TV
BE Unlimited for my BroadBand

A large loss to Virgin Media if we all do that.

Stuart 01-03-2008 14:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Guys, el reg has done several articles on this now (including one leaked presentation on how it works)

They have a handy list at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/29/phorm_roundup/

none 01-03-2008 14:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34498460)
I will then go to

BT for Phone.
Sky for TV
BE Unlimited for my BroadBand

A large loss to Virgin Media if we all do that.

agreed

funny enough BE unlimited are currently my first choice as an alternative broadband supplier.

Oh and look at that, BE even use https, even on their homepage unlike some 'super duper' suppliers :S

alferret 01-03-2008 15:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have been having a quick dig and it seems that Kent Ertugrul who is CEO of Phorm was involved with companies that pushed root-kit & spyware on to unsuspecting users.

LINK

It seems to me that there is a lot more behind this "structured targeted ads" than meets the eye.

Maybe it would be an idea if we could get his address (email or snail) and bombard him with letters of complaint about the intrusion into our private surfing habits. Which after all are just that private. Why do browser software developers make programs that allow us to virtually browse the net without fear of ads and tracking? Because they understand privacy. VM for all their faults have gone one step to far and all subscribers should be given the choice to opt-in, or if they do make it that you are already opted-in then there should be clear and sufficent links, email-shots etc that shows just how to opt-out and that once opted out no information should be shared by VM and third parties due to the data protection act.

Toto 01-03-2008 15:05

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alferret (Post 34498467)
I have been having a quick dig and it seems that Kent Ertugrul who is CEO of Phorm was involved with companies that pushed root-kit & spyware on to unsuspecting users.

LINK

It seems to me that there is a lot more behind this "structured targeted ads" than meets the eye.

Maybe it would be an idea if we could get his address (email or snail) and bombard him with letters of complaint about the intrusion into our private surfing habits. Which after all are just that private. Why do browser software developers make programs that allow us to virtually browse the net without fear of ads and tracking? Because they understand privacy. VM for all their faults have gone one step to far and all subscribers should be given the choice to opt-in, or if they do make it that you are already opted-in then there should be clear and sufficent links, email-shots etc that shows just how to opt-out and that once opted out no information should be shared by VM and third parties due to the data protection act.

Old news my friend, you should read through this thread in its entirety.

mertle 01-03-2008 15:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C (Post 34498457)
However, that list will not stop the monitoring you. Also, blocking zavvi is a little pointless. They have nothing to do with virgin.

Also, it will block access to websites linked to the three isps and phorm. It will not stop them monitoring you.

I would agree with this WE CANT do absolute anything to stop it. Blocking will not stop pop up adverts as you dont know who running the advert. You just have to do it when they appear keep blocking the pop ups as they appear if they attack you this way.

However I know why a certain thing which started to happen since christmas now maybe its the first PHORM attack. PEEPS you need to listen and be aware.

We have been pestered every few days on the phone with advertisements which clearly been targeted. All since I bought something from guess who yes ZAVVI. So they can get lost I will never buy from them again.

So even if VM say they wont pass personal details it seems Outside businesses such as carphonewarehouse, Zavvi might release peoples personal details for targeted junk mail and phone calls.

Its doing my mothers head in but exactly what can we do apart from keep changing your phone number. I rang VM they said they could block witheld numbers but that will not prevent it. As some dont withheld and family have withheld numbers. To me this type of advertising targeting should be banned however the government just as bad. They even sell details so you get junk.

So we wont get sypathy from them to fight this. Theres only one option we all pull our broadband tell them get stuffed. Drastic and in someways impossible option for 95% of us.

aMIGA_dUDE 01-03-2008 15:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34498346)
Before anybody does this, please review the list in that hosts file. Many popular sites are listed. Only use this file if you ABSOLUTELY want to block all Virgin, BT, SKY and TALK TALK websites.

I think its a bit extreme to be honest, although I can see why some would want to do this.

If you want a grin, look at the comments on the hosts file.......goooood English.

Extreme not really, they are going to do a lot worse to us!

From view point this is my choice to install this on to my system and use it. Nothing like Virgin Media are going to do with Phorn.

As for wording in host file well it was written during early hours. If you would like to write an list with me then I am open for your to views. If would like to talk to me about it then email me at
dqHbEaR6N4rjjqtj@spambox.us
The e-mail account will close on Friday 07/03/08

---------- Post added at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34498359)
One glaring omission in that list.... webwise.com !!

Yep missed that one, doh.

also I should add aol.co.uk and geeksquad.co.uk as that is a CPW business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carphone_Warehouse

Toto 01-03-2008 16:12

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by aMIGA_dUDE (Post 34498475)
Extreme not really, they are going to do a lot worse to us!

From view point this is my choice to install this on to my system and use it. Nothing like Virgin Media are going to do with Phorn.

As for wording in host file well it was written during early hours. If you would like to write an list with me then I am open for your to views. If would like to talk to me about it then email me at
dqHbEaR6N4rjjqtj@spambox.us
The e-mail account will close on Friday 07/03/08

---------- Post added at 14:31 ---------- Previous post was at 14:20 ----------



Yep missed that one, doh.

also I should add aol.co.uk and geeksquad.co.uk as that is a CPW business.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Carphone_Warehouse

Not sure about the lot worse bit, no firm details from VM as yet on how they will launch this, but enough to cause a concern for most users.

alferret 01-03-2008 16:19

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34498470)
Old news my friend, you should read through this thread in its entirety.



I would love to but best part of 400 post's is a lot, read some though :D but not the right ones ;)

Toto 01-03-2008 16:21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by alferret (Post 34498496)
I would love to but best part of 400 post's is a lot, read some though :D but not the right ones ;)

Haha, yeh it isn't easy I know :)

bliss 01-03-2008 16:41

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Can anybody tell me the name of this webwise cookie or where it is stored? I've clicked opt out just to check and i don't see any phorm/oxi cookie! :shocked:

Also, and this has been probably asked before...

Quote:

If I switch Webwise off, is my browsing behaviour still collected?

No - once you have switched off Webwise, the Webwise cookie prevents any of your browsing from being collected.
If this is the case then what is all the talk on here that they still watch your browsing? And it's just the end product (Ads) that you don't see. I do tend to believe CF more than that piece of junk website though.

Toto 01-03-2008 16:54

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bliss (Post 34498503)
Can anybody tell me the name of this webwise cookie or where it is stored? I've clicked opt out just to check and i don't see any phorm/oxi cookie! :shocked:

Also, and this has been probably asked before...

If this is the case then what is all the talk on here that they still watch your browsing? And it's just the end product (Ads) that you don't see. I do tend to believe CF more than that piece of junk website though.

Set the webise page as your homepage, then close the browser. Delete all your cookies then open the browser back up. Click around the site a bit then close the browser down.

Look in your cookie folder again and see what's in there.

bliss 01-03-2008 17:00

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Tbh i have a lot of cookies i want to keep. So removing then adding them all again is going to be a real pain. I presume nobody knows what the name of this cookie is then? I doubt it is random for every person. This whole thing is a joke.

Toto 01-03-2008 17:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bliss (Post 34498517)
Tbh i have a lot of cookies i want to keep. So removing then adding them all again is going to be a real pain. I presume nobody knows what the name of this cookie is then? I doubt it is random for every person. This whole thing is a joke.

OK, follow the same instructions but don't clean out your coockies. When you open the browser with the webwise page set as the homepage, note the time you opened and closed the browser, then sort the cookies by modified by date / time. Should be easy to spot then if any coockie from Webwise has been inserted.

bliss 01-03-2008 17:11

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I don't seem to see that option in the Firefox cookie view screen. :confused:

Just decided to have a play around with IE and webwise i opted in out in out and then viewed all action from this time and even sorted by address, www.webwise.com. And guess what, no cookie. Just a bunch of images and a javascript file.

iglu 01-03-2008 17:25

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bliss (Post 34498521)
I don't seem to see that option in the Firefox cookie view screen. :confused:

tools >options>privacy> click show cookies

bliss 01-03-2008 17:27

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by iglu (Post 34498527)
tools >options>privacy> click show cookies

I meant sorting by date/time. Isn't it odd that it doesn't show up in IE either?

Toto 01-03-2008 17:33

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bliss (Post 34498521)
I don't seem to see that option in the Firefox cookie view screen. :confused:

Just decided to have a play around with IE and webwise i opted in out in out and then viewed all action from this time and even sorted by address, www.webwise.com. And guess what, no cookie. Just a bunch of images and a javascript file.

Actually, you are right.

The cookie.txt file in FF is a single file, you can't access each cookie as a seperate *.txt file, sorry.

bliss 01-03-2008 17:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Actually i do have a cookie in IE now that might be it.

dewb.opt.fimserve.com

It showed up when i reopened IE.

Just checked my FF cookies and it's not there.

Toto 01-03-2008 17:42

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bliss (Post 34498534)
Actually i do have a cookie in IE now that might be it.

dewb.opt.fimserve.com

It showed up when i reopened IE.

Just checked my FF cookies and it's not there.

Nope, that's Myspace.com :)

OrgName: Myspace.com
OrgID: MYSPA
Address: 1333 2nd Dt Suite 100
City: Santa Monica
StateProv: CA
PostalCode: 90401
Country: US

NetRange: 216.178.32.0 - 216.178.47.255
Non-authoritative answer:
Name: fimserve.com
Address: 216.178.38.123

bliss 01-03-2008 17:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Then doesn't this prove that their cookie is a pile of junk and doesn't work? Heh, that's what my girlfriend has set as her homepage. She doesn't like FF. :D

lucevans 01-03-2008 18:43

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bliss (Post 34498540)
Then doesn't this prove that their cookie is a pile of junk and doesn't work? Heh, that's what my girlfriend has set as her homepage. She doesn't like FF. :D

I don't think that you'll get a cookie yet if you're on a Virgin Media connection: both VM and Phorm are currently stating that OIX has not gone live yet on the VM network (that is if you trust them...). I did a few trials involving cookie-clearouts a few days ago, and found no cookies from the domain oix.net in my folder (according to the Webwise a.k.a. Phorm FAQs, this is the domain that will serve the tracking cookie - again, I don't necessarily believe them, but that's what they're telling people...) In the meantime, assuming that they're not lying about that, I've now set my router to block all connections to that domain.

eddcase 01-03-2008 19:03

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Hang on a minute. Since VM took over from NTL or whoever else as our ISP, haven't we all been having connection/speed problems? Perhaps this has something to do with this Phorm lark. Perhaps to make the whole deal viable, VM have to show that their customers will be worth the mi££ions that VM will get from the deal. A buckshee speed increase should help to allay the fears of advertisers ensuring the target fodder get to see their luvverly ads in super-fast-fibre-optic time. Yeah, where's my 10meg, I have a lorra lorra personally targeted ads to download :)

aMIGA_dUDE 01-03-2008 19:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
It makes more seance that discussion to make new anit-SPYCOMS list about Phorm on another forum then this one. This discussion is only to talk about hosts file issues and updating it.

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...l#post34498585

lordy 01-03-2008 19:20

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
More details on Phorm at the Register ..
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...orm_documents/

mertle 01-03-2008 19:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eddcase (Post 34498586)
Hang on a minute. Since VM took over from NTL or whoever else as our ISP, haven't we all been having connection/speed problems? Perhaps this has something to do with this Phorm lark. Perhaps to make the whole deal viable, VM have to show that their customers will be worth the mi££ions that VM will get from the deal. A buckshee speed increase should help to allay the fears of advertisers ensuring the target fodder get to see their luvverly ads in super-fast-fibre-optic time. Yeah, where's my 10meg, I have a lorra lorra personally targeted ads to download :)

thats a good point also who is exactly is the 5% hoggers of bandwidth. For all we know and would VM own up is they could been trialing PHORM. Ever since VM started talking about traffic shaping and this 5% so called hog peak lark the intenet become cronic even struggling to browse.

So I am thinking VM being less than honest possible trialed the system and just about crashing everybodies connection at peak.

Yet prior to to VM coming out with Traffic Shaping I never had issues at peak myself I dont know about others. Yet when VM started this meddling thats when it went dodgy.

I really now putting my thinking cap on and say I am pretty sure they been trialing something dodgy.

Yes because it cant cope with PHORM they now got to upgrade the internet to cope with all this JUNK heading our way.

RizzyKing 01-03-2008 19:47

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Being honest i hadn't thought about it before but YES my speed has suffered since VM took over and it is slower. When it was NTL my connection was stable and solid but now i routinely drop connection or slow to a crawl and have got nowhere contacting VM about it. To be honest till now i always put it down to over subscription but maybe they have been either trialling or reducing speed to the levels it would be with phorm and seeing how the customers take it.

bw41101 01-03-2008 20:10

Re: Virgin Media Ad Deal - Would you be opting out?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mick (Post 34491412)
I have asked VM today - awaiting a response, coming soon. :p:

I contacted VM myself (today) regarding the same thing and the individual I spoke to denied any knowledge regarding Phorm - Interesting! I'm wondering whether it's genuine ignorance (on their part) or someone's telling porkies?

moaningmags 01-03-2008 20:11

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Which dept did you contact?
I work in tech and more than half my colleagues have never heard of Phorm.

iTekweni 01-03-2008 20:45

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
First lousy 20meg now this what next VM

mertle 01-03-2008 20:55

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I thought someone said PHORM russian.

According to my netalyzer they are based in good old dirty America.

Even got there registerd domain which questions if I ban this will it cut them off from the juggler.

I even got 2 email address of PHORM, full snail address & phone /FAX.

So even we can use the information to find things out.

I not going to publish it its upto others to find it I not going to be responsible for millions spamming.

On another note about security. If I am right its been trialled then I fear there is already a security breach with it.

I had a phonecall from my bank who has squashed over £600 and they told me it WAS NOT my end the security breach.

So HOW can VM securely keep OUR PRIVATE informatin SAFE.

What is to stop these from using that ISP data to HARD ATTACK for passwords logins. They simply CANT.

bw41101 01-03-2008 21:01

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by moaningmags (Post 34498624)
Which dept did you contact?
I work in tech and more than half my colleagues have never heard of Phorm.

Just the ordinary customer services. In fact, when I asked the representative to look at our website and read the info on Phorm for themselves (rather than try to explain it myself) the response (I felt) was one of genuinely not knowing anything about Phorm.

Obviously (it seems) the right hand isn't communicating with the left - nothing new there then. :D:

MovedGoalPosts 01-03-2008 21:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I'm not surprised that the average Virgin Media staffer hasn't heard of this yet. After all the information being released by VM is only that shown on the phorm site. If VM wanted to respect their customers they would at least have a statement by now on their own customer facing website.

none 01-03-2008 21:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bw41101 (Post 34498657)
Just the ordinary customer services. In fact, when I asked the representative to look at our website and read the info on Phorm for themselves (rather than try to explain it myself) the response (I felt) was one of genuinely not knowing anything about Phorm.

Obviously (it seems) the right hand isn't communicating with the left - nothing new there then. :D:

I touched on this in post #341

Quote:

Originally Posted by none

If you want to speak to someone about Phorm and how it will supposedly work you can try ringing VM’s retentions department on - tel: 0800 052 0870

This so far has been the only department that seems to be able to verbally relay any information regarding Phorm. One can only assume that there have been numerous cancellation enquires due to Phorm, and as such the retentions guys have been ‘readily briefed’ as to what to say.

So, did it alleviate my concerns and fears?

Hell no, not even close! Phorm (webwise) was completely and utterly played down as being nothing more than harmless marketing info. TBH I was almost lost for words with their woolly explanation of how it worked. As if somehow I was the overreacting fool for being so concerned with it!!!

So,

Has anyone else rung retentions to querry Phorm (webwise)?

If so, what were you told?

Did it put your mind at rest?


Stuart 01-03-2008 22:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34498652)
I thought someone said PHORM russian.

They are, partly. The company itself is American, but the software used is written by people linked to Russian military intelligence.

---------- Post added at 21:14 ---------- Previous post was at 21:06 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by bliss (Post 34498503)
If this is the case then what is all the talk on here that they still watch your browsing? And it's just the end product (Ads) that you don't see. I do tend to believe CF more than that piece of junk website though.

The problem is that the leaked BT technical presentation (they have already trialled the system despite stating they haven't) makes it look that the system can work in two ways: One prevents the system from tracking you if you opt out, and the other just blocks the ads.

That, plus the fact that Phorm themselves have been linked with the creation of rootkits leads me not to trust them.

mertle 01-03-2008 23:22

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C (Post 34498691)
They are, partly. The company itself is American, but the software used is written by people linked to Russian military intelligence.


thanks for that although I do have a strange question many use AVG who is czech company is this not government military owned product. I might be wrong but I am sure I read it somewhere.

aMIGA_dUDE 02-03-2008 16:37

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
A list of places worth complaining to about this issue

ICO (Data Protection)

http://www.ico.gov.uk/Home/complaint...rotection.aspx

Also start phoning up OFT via Consumer Direct

http://oft.gov.uk/contactus
http://www.consumerdirect.gov.uk/

Also Ofcom and there section about Privacy issues - spam email and offensive internet content is interesting

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/complain/internet/

---------- Post added at 15:37 ---------- Previous post was at 15:34 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by mertle (Post 34498726)
thanks for that although I do have a strange question many use AVG who is czech company is this not government military owned product. I might be wrong but I am sure I read it somewhere.

Even if they are that is the user's choice ie it an Opt-In, no one is forcing it use upon any user. Nothing like what's going to be going with Phorm and it being a Opt-Out, as such it is SPYCOMS.

Morden 02-03-2008 16:46

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Disable cookies.

Then they cant track you.l

dav 02-03-2008 16:58

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Why should we have to severely restrict our ease of use of other, legitimate, websites we choose to visit just to avoid having Phorm's manure foisted upon us by disabling all cookies?

I'm sure our click data will still get passed to Phorm irrespective of whether they detect a cookie or not.

Stuart 02-03-2008 16:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morden (Post 34498952)
Disable cookies.

Then they cant track you.l

That may not stop them. The system only uses cookies to tell if you have opted out.

Morden 02-03-2008 17:07

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
If it can still track you with no cookies it must be getting a feed directly from the transport layer.

I think it may still be possible to do something about that.

hOrZa 02-03-2008 17:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
They call the data anonymous but as this shows you can be tracked down

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AOL_search_data_scandal

Morden 02-03-2008 17:10

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
If you have a works provided VPN connection then surf through that as they cannot access it and will therfore not able to track you as your surfing is on another private network.

Stuart 02-03-2008 17:13

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Look a few posts up. BT have already trialled this system, and El Reg has got hold of a leaked presentation that goes into some details on how it works. Basically, the packets are intercepted and processed at the network switch level.

Morden 02-03-2008 17:20

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Well a VPN connection will stop them from intercepting then as these are encryped to a high enough level that unless you have a cray then forget about intercepting it. Even then it would take a cray several years to break the encryption.

I know that not a solution for everone, but if you do have access to vpn and a remote desktop then they cant track you, but your employer can.

flowrebmit 02-03-2008 17:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Would the "tap" into the network also read other types of internet traffic, e.g. external pop3 mail?

eddcase 02-03-2008 18:22

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RizzyKing (Post 34498604)
Being honest i hadn't thought about it before but YES my speed has suffered since VM took over and it is slower. When it was NTL my connection was stable and solid but now i routinely drop connection or slow to a crawl and have got nowhere contacting VM about it. To be honest till now i always put it down to over subscription but maybe they have been either trialling or reducing speed to the levels it would be with phorm and seeing how the customers take it.

I wonder if the 20meg customers are the experimental group? Their connections seem to have been up and down like yoyo's. :).

lucevans 02-03-2008 18:50

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eddcase (Post 34498990)
I wonder if the 20meg customers are the experimental group? Their connections seem to have been up and down like yoyo's. :).

This would explain VM's eagerness to stop using the transparent proxies on it's networks last year - it had nothing to do with "improving performance" and everything to do with converting those proxies to the hardware data-intercept devices for the Phorm system.

Sirius 02-03-2008 19:28

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by eddcase (Post 34498990)
I wonder if the 20meg customers are the experimental group? Their connections seem to have been up and down like yoyo's. :).


Would not surprise me one little bit.

---------- Post added at 18:28 ---------- Previous post was at 18:27 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34499006)
This would explain VM's eagerness to stop using the transparent proxies on it's networks last year - it had nothing to do with "improving performance" and everything to do with converting those proxies to the hardware data-intercept devices for the Phorm system.

Now that make's perfect sense :tu:

Toto 02-03-2008 19:48

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by lucevans (Post 34499006)
This would explain VM's eagerness to stop using the transparent proxies on it's networks last year - it had nothing to do with "improving performance" and everything to do with converting those proxies to the hardware data-intercept devices for the Phorm system.

Ermmm....ok, I think we are getting into tin foil hat territory here.

I don't like this system anymore than any other VM customer here, but this wild speculation is taking things a tad far.

If its that bad, we should start moving to other networks now rather than playing the conspiracy theories till our noses bleed.

Morden 02-03-2008 19:53

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Stuart C (Post 34498964)
Look a few posts up. BT have already trialled this system, and El Reg has got hold of a leaked presentation that goes into some details on how it works. Basically, the packets are intercepted and processed at the network switch level.

Can you post the link on this, I am quite interested to see how this works as if it uses the network layer of the OSI model as you have said then it is running at very low level for this type of software as that would mean its working on packets. I have tried looking up , but cannot find this information.

If its on application layer then blocking becomes easier.

Florence 02-03-2008 20:02

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morden (Post 34499034)
Can you post the link on this, I am quite interested to see how this works as if it uses the network layer of the OSI model as you have said then it is running at very low level for this type of software as that would mean its working on packets. I have tried looking up , but cannot find this information.

If its on application layer then blocking becomes easier.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02...orm_documents/

Very dissapointed that Virgin are taking this path infact IF I wanted spam I wouldn't filter it before I download. This is the same thing highjacking my connection to filter spam to me.. This should be illegal I will be opting out I also think there should be an orginasation in place to fine companies that do this once a customer has opted out along the same lines as cold callin I registered with TPS so I had help to stop companies cald calling me to sell me things I hadn't asked for.

Morden 02-03-2008 20:06

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I did see a link, but this talked about netsense, which I would think is a similar program to websense which is a program that the government and other large corporations use to limit what their internal users can access over the intranet. E.g. block facebook etc

If thats what this is, then I would be more worried about the ISP's blocking access to websites as this is more likely the use to which this will be put in the long run.

I would think the likes of pirate bay etc will be blocked when this is implented.

I think this will solve your problems anyway :- http://www.freeproxy.ru/en/free_proxy/cgi-proxy.htm

I also checked and the program needs to store a cookie on your pc, cookies off will stop it as it will not have an id to assign to you. The id is stored on ithe cookie it puts in your PC .

Stuart 02-03-2008 20:14

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Morden (Post 34499042)
I did see a link, but this talked about netsense, which I would think is a similar program to websense which is a program that the government and other large corporations use to limit what their internal users can access over the intranet. E.g. block facebook etc

If thats what this is, then I would be more worried about the ISP's blocking access to websites as this is more likely the use to which this will be put in the long run.

I would think the likes of pirate bay etc will be blocked when this is implented.

I think this will slve your problems anyway :- http://www.freeproxy.ru/en/free_proxy/cgi-proxy.htm


If they were just running netsense for site blocking, I doubt they would run profiling hardware, and it certainly wouldn't make the extensive use of cookies shown in those diagrams.

Florence 02-03-2008 20:19

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
I have sent email to TPS and MPS requesting if they could look into this and see if they can work out a way to protect those opting out from being high-jacked over the internet.

Also this might be a good place to look for help if enough complain about the highjacking just maybe this will be stopped or made that you have to opt in...

http://www.ico.gov.uk/

Morden 02-03-2008 20:20

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Switch the cookies off and the app wont work properly as it will not know who you are etc. Browsing is a bit more of a pain, but the phorm will not work and do this along with a web proxy for browsing and your invisible to them. I put a link to a proxy in my last post.

This will work as well :- http://www.torproject.org/.

If everyone uses this then Virgin not make any money from your data as it wont have any data to sell. It is also rumoured that the phorm uses a rootkit that it installs on your PC, so bookmark this link :- http://www.antirootkit.com if this turns out to be true, you will get the tools here to remove the rootkit.

There is a Firefox addon that you can use as well :- https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/3173

Though a word of warning if you do use a webproxy or TOR then you may open yourself up to virus's so make sure you know what you are doing before deciding to use it.

lucevans 02-03-2008 21:11

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77 & 102]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto (Post 34499032)
Ermmm....ok, I think we are getting into tin foil hat territory here.

I don't like this system anymore than any other VM customer here, but this wild speculation is taking things a tad far.

If its that bad, we should start moving to other networks now rather than playing the conspiracy theories till our noses bleed.

I'm sorry if it sounded like I was stating a fact...I was just speculating :(


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