Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

One Brexit benefit today. The contactless card limit has been raised from EU limits to £100 by the Chancellor.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-56263582

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Yeah, so don't lose your wallet, because an opportunist thief could rack up quite a bill. I wonder how good the banks' computer systems are at spotting sudden uncharacteristic spending and stopping the card?

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

The Dutch raised theirs to €100 last year.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My bad, I really thought I'd found a genuine Brexit benefit!

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Never let it be said that I don't try to find Brexit benefits! ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My main card doesn't have contactless on it and I would have the same from other providers if they offered it.


It's silly some traders now won't take cash (our local Chinese takeaway). My son went down for some chips but they wouldn't server him. He didn't have card with him.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

What has happened to the old you can only buy on a card if you spend more than a fiver brigade.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I'm not sure I understand this ... are you saying you would choose not to have any access to contactless payment, even though you are aware an increasing number of shops will not accept cash? If so, why?

---------- Post added at 10:55 ---------- Previous post was at 10:52 ----------

Contactless card/cash discussion moved into its own thread as it's nowt to do with Brexit.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

I never used contactless until the pandemic and was more than happy to go elsewhere if the shop keeper objected to cash, now it's me that doesn't accept change!

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Puts on Tin foil hat.......

It's all about control, the state and big finance wants to know exactly how much money you have and where, how you spend it and where.

They want to close banks and cash machines and go completely digital, dis-advantaging anyone that doesn't

Takes tin foil hat off.........

re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

They are still out there. Last week I bought a sandwich and drink from a garage near Blackburn. They wanted 90p extra to use a card. First time I've used cash in about a year. :)

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

90P, I think i would have thrown the sandwich at the cashier;)

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

The only time I use cash these days is to get the daily paper.

What does annoy me is that now and then the contactless is declined and I have to put in the card and the PIN meaning I have to touch the keys that someone else has just touched.

I know it's added security but still annoying.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

That’s illegal. They can set a minimum card purchase amount and refuse transactions below that amount but they aren’t allowed to charge for using a card. Call your council’s trading standards department and let them know - they should send someone round to have a word.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Imagine the queues at the checkouts when the internet borks ;)

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

My takeaway only takes cash.


It's the only cash I've used since March last year.


I will normally use cash for anything under £5.

---------- Post added at 13:33 ---------- Previous post was at 13:32 ----------


It was a rule on a café/bakers I used between the first and second lockdown, but they then preferred card for all items

---------- Post added at 13:36 ---------- Previous post was at 13:33 ----------


My nephew had a bank card which didn't have contactless, but it did have chip & pin.

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Still have a couple of diy outlets in Cleethorpes that charge 50p if you spend less than £5 on a card

Re: Britain outside the EU
 

Surely that is illegal?

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

It is illegal. Trading standards will sort it if you call them. They are legally allowed to just refuse card payments below a certain level but as pip noted above, that may still breach the terms of their contract with their payment processing service.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I have to purchase some yacht varnish and paint thinners for the boat soon so i will test them on it.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I drilled my card as the banks will only supply contactless. With the aerial wire cut it's impossible to use as contactless (I did test it a few times).

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Reminds me of my favourite card transaction. Cash machine outside a shop had a fee, minimum spend was £5 so I bought a Magnum ice cream and asked for £20 cash back.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Can I ask why?

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Are you sure you can handle the answer?

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

How will I know, unless I see it?

It’s a risk I’m willing to take - "Danger" isn’t my middle name...

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Thats enough of the your nonsense.


I'm also curious why anyone would purposely disable contactless.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Given that Faraday cage wallets are available so you can control when the card is accessible.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I have 2 friends who had to jump through hoops for months to get back payments that were taken without their knowledge. Both were asked to enter the PIN in shops before they had done any shopping.

Calls to the card companies revealed that several transactions had taken place in the local area earlier that day, using contactless payments.

I don't trust contactless at all.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Crooks using card reading equipment can swipe money as you walk
They can also steal information that they can then use to steal your identity
It even possible when contactless cards were in bags and jacket pockets
The equipment needed is available for as little as £30 online

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-street.html

It's old news, but with stories like this you can see why people are against the £100 limit or they are disabling the chip altogether.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I carry a small bottle of 70% antibacterial hand gel and use it regularly on the few occasions I touch anything outside

---------- Post added at 16:59 ---------- Previous post was at 16:58 ----------

They pretty much know how much you have and where it is anyway unless you fiddle the dole or work cash in hand. Most everything else is recorded somewhere anyway

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I have one of those, had it for a few years now was only a few quid.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I was waiting for the bus yesterday, and as soon as it appeared in the distance, I suddenly realised I'd forgotten my bus pass! Luckily, I had my contactless card and used that to pay the fare.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I love a story with a happy ending :)

Contactless is very convenient, not sure about £100. You should be able to opt out if you're not happy with that amount or set your own limit.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I don't disagree but there is some scaremongering around readers taking contactless payments from passers by or from jackets at or near the till in a bar.

It does remind me of the once I genuinely thought I'd been scammed. £27.40, couldn't work out why.

The next day in work described my outrage to a colleague as we had been standing at the bar. This is a joke... etc. etc. My colleague replies

"Two Staropramen and 20 quid cashback?"

Suddenly it all made sense. I do more often use phone payments but not out of an inherent distrust of contactless - just I have my phone on me more often than my wallet. Like a true Scotsman.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Had to look that up, never heard of that beer before.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

It's fantastic if you can get a good draught pint of it. The Griffin in Glasgow was my haunt then although bizarrely they stopped doing it in favour of Moretti.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I have notifications on my bank and credit card (x2) accounts - if a transaction happens, I get a text notification.

I’d know immediately if someone was using one of my cards.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Been in that pub, was a few years ago now, I think I've saved a small fortune by not being able to get out for a few beers.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

yea but you're going to make up for it;)

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

If you get one, test it to make sure it works. Mrs P bought a Faraday pouch to keep the key for her new car. It was totally useless.

She now keeps the key in an old toffee tin, which works perfectly.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Thanks for that - I’ll make sure to look out for anyone pressing a contactless payment terminal against my crotch* when I’m out...

*I keep my wallet in my front trouser pocket

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

A cashless society will help HMRC cut down on tax evasion e.g. window cleaners and cut down on benefit fraud. Contactless helps with the fight against Covid.

If your card is used fraudently, the banks should refund you under the Payment Services Regulations.

It's also safer than carrying cash or keeping it at home and will disrupt illegal activities so, on balance, I think i'm in favour.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Yes, let’s get after them window cleaners.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Scaremongering is all it is.

Yes, Im sure it could happen, if everything fell into place.
The again, your card could be cloned in an ATM, or when paying anywhere where you lose sight of it for a few seconds. You could be scammed by email, online purchase, or many other things.

Just more tin foil had brigade.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I've had my debit card cloned and it was more an inconvenience than anything else. The fraudsters made a small value transaction (£1.70 car park) to test that it worked. Then they tried to order some IT equipment online about nine times but each time that transaction failed. This alerted the bank who rang me straight away, cancelled the card and reversed the car park transaction.
The bank said it could have been cloned anywhere so not to worry about it.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

A consumer advice show has just said that people can be made liable for at least the first £50 that is spent before they report a card as lost or stolen. Apparently, they are "very reasonable about this" {unusually for banks).

However, if they believe that you've been negligent or taken your time to report the loss, this can be more up to the value of the value spent!

Negligent is a very subjective term though. Have you been negligent leaving it unattended somewhere? I would say yes, but have you been negligent by losing it out of your pocket? Not so clear cut.

I suspect a lot of people lie when they report a loss or theft.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I keep my cards inside a credit card hard wallet inside my bra.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Good idea, though personally i'm not going to start wearing a bra just to keep my cards safe :D

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Use a merkin instead...

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

:D

---------- Post added at 10:10 ---------- Previous post was at 10:09 ----------


:shocked:

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I have a nice wallet that holds my cards and cash (coins and notes). When in office wear it sits in my shirt pocket else in my hip pocket, why should I buy a new wallet?


I like the opportunity to use cash as while you can use cash the government can't stop you trading. It's not the current ones you need worry about but the potential future rules. If there is no cash they could stop groups of people from buying or selling.



It could be sold as a way to protect from convicts, you lock their "account" so it can only be used for prison scrip, relatives can add to it, they can earn to it but if the escape they can't use "real" money.
OR
Use for military on deployment, they can use scrip for buying on base but not with locals and locals can't get scrip or however you want to reduce smuggling etc. Officials locals could take scrip and sell "approved" items/services.
OR
Use for foreign currency, you account could get a wallet for foreign currency you can fill up and then spend without the normal CC add on for foreign transactions.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

That must get some interesting looks when it comes to paying. :erm:

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

...Or someone could steal your cash. Nothing is 100% safe. At least if your card is stolen you can cancel it, and get a refund from your bank. When you have cash stolen, you'll be very lucky to see that again.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I can't remember the last time i used cash in the UK, I rarely even take my wallet with me, I pretty much now just use Apple Pay and either my phone or my watch.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Mobile and watch payments need to have another form of activation though in order for them to work even for within the contactless limit.

For Apple you have to wake your watch or do biometric ID on the phone. Android devices and watches need something similar most of the time (though sometimes it's as simple as making the phone is 'awake')

It's why you can now do higher transactions with two forms of verification from the PCI guidlines which are:

'Something you know, such as a password or passphrase. Something you have, such as a token device or smartcard. Something you are, such as a biometric.'

My bank Natwest have recently allowed me to manage contactless (along with other payment methods) on my debit card. This now matches the app-based card providers.

I'm hoping the next stage on this will be to allow me to set my own contactless limit below the default if I want to.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Yeah, I use my phone now for payments rather than card now as I need to open my (Android) phone with a fingerprint. Definitely feels more secure than just tapping a card...

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I'm surprised that something like fingerprints aren't now used instead of a PIN on cashpoint machines.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Your biometric data would have to be securely collected by your card issuer at the time you open the account. It’s not impossible to do but it would complicate the process a lot. ATMs would have to be updated and then card processing companies would come under pressure to replace every card reader with one that can read a thumb print. That would cost a fortune.

Most Americans don’t even have chip and pin yet, which is a pain in the ass when you’re trying to take a card payment off them with one of the small business friendly card readers out there, that work in conjunction with your phone or iPad because you end up asking them to sign your screen, and the result is illegible and rarely comparable with whatever’s on the back of their card.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

You mean like this

https://www.rbs.com/rbs/news/2019/10...edit-card.html

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Who would be crying If cash was abolished? Answer: all the bad guys. People smugglers, drug dealers, thieves and cheats.
A huge amount of crime would be switched off overnight, robberies, muggings, car theft.
Ok, a lot of honest folk like you and me would be inconvenienced but we would manage.
For sure, some of the very elderly might struggle at first but that is also manageable.

We’ve all done it, paid cash for Joe to do a cheap job on the house or car. Although it’s not a bad crime, it’s still naughty. Also, when the work is no good, it can be impossible to get recompense.
I think society would be far richer if we phased out cash. Starting with the £50 note; its introduction (IMhO) was a big mistake.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

True, though muggings would still happen for mobile phones etc.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Most modern smartphones can be "bricked" remotely, or even traced through a "find my phone" app.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Plus what would they do with it? I assume that they sell them on for cash these days.

I read that the system of blocking mobiles by something to do with the IMEI number can be circumvented by thieves:

https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/...at+do+I+do+now

Is there some newer technology that improve upon this?

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

As in my earlier post - yes cashless could block some of the low level criminal types (the high flyers would find ways and crime would move even more to the cyber space arena). But what if a future regime declares you or your social/racial/sexual/religious/etc group "bad guys"? What if the "good guys" are the one that agree to vote/follow/believe/accept what the rulers dictate? Yes you can vote electronically for the opposition, that's you democratic right as it is ours to control the spending of subversives out to destroy our wonderful way of life.



Cash prevents or at least reduces this risk as people can still trade without that trade being logged or controlled. It's always worth asking "what if?".



And no I haven't knowingly paid cash to avoid VAT/taxes other that very small jobs less than £20 or so and the last few of those the trader wasn't VAT registered.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

These are pretty big 'ifs.' Even in a society entirely without card payments, your cash has to go in and out of the bank unless you're going to keep it all in your mattress. The last place I saw giving out wages in little brown envelopes on a Friday was a shop my missus worked in part time when we were first married, 20 odd years ago. These days almost everyone is paid electronically and you have to transact with a bank to get the cash in your hand. Almost every domestic service provider you deal with will resist cash payments very hard indeed, more or less compelling you to use the electronic banking system for online payment or direct debit, which uses electronic payment for every transaction even though you only authorise it once to start it off. There are a multitude of opportunities for an oppressive regime to control you by interfering with this system whether or not you pay with cash in your corner shop.

As a side note, I would suggest putting a little less faith in eschatological readings of Revelation that hang on 19th century American hysteria around the tribulation. Such things have become wildly popular in Charismatic circles but they were not the orthodox belief of the church for most of the last two millennia. We are not on the cusp of having beastly payment barcodes stuck to our wrists or foreheads. ;)

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I use cash whenever I can, call me an old farty luddite, I care not a jot :p:

I find cash very useful around birthdays, anniversaries etc, the wife knows I've taken £200 from the account, but has no idea where I've spent it. If I use card payments, she knows where I've spent the money and probably what on.

oh, and I will gladly pay (for example) a plumber £20 cash to replace a tap instead of £40 'through the books'. This may be due to the fact I am unable to claim tax relief on my 3rd London residence, for a fancy structure to house my ducks in the duck pond, and for the 4 members of close family I claim are personal secretaries :D

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Went shopping this morning for the first time with no cash in my wallet, I put it in a birthday card the other day, I always pay by card but usually carry cash with me just in case the card machine is on the blink.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I went to a shop and they wanted cash only no cards

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Perhaps you could help me (us?) understand and list even one thing that you have purchased that you would want to keep private. In other words, what is it that you buy that would embarrass you if the authorities knew?

As for controlling your spend - I am totally lost.

Sure, if you're dealing in dodgy cat-converters, I can understand your point. Otherwise, please explain. Thanks.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Likewise. I carry enough cash to cover just in case. I only have the one debit card and no credit cards.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

We had a family city break in Chester last October before things started locking down again. I got £100 out of an ATM in the city centre for kids' pocket money and whatever, but then almost everything we did all week was paid by card and I've barely left the house since we got back home. I still have £90 worth of pristine polymer Bank of England notes in my wallet.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

My village butcher won't accept cards on orders less than £8. He's the only one.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Are ye Scottish ;)

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Our village shop will only accept cards for greater than £5.0

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I don't know why shops impose minimum payments for card payments. Shops pay a %, usually based on turnover, so it doesn't matter if one customer spends £100 on their card or 100 spend £1 on their cards.

In days gone by it could be argued that it takes up too much time to process piddly little bits at the till, leading to queues, but these days with contactless it's probably quicker than a cash customer as they don't need to check the note under UV light, check & give out change etc.

All minimum payments do is irritate customers, which can lead to lost sales.

Perhaps there's evidence that supports the view that imposing a minimum charge increases average customer spend??

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Yes it is the village shop that you are thinking of, I have not been to that shop for some years and the may have changed their policy.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Although that's true now, it is the case that the fees used to be per transaction, so it's possible that some retailer agreements are still based on that.
I always thought it was a combination of the per-transaction fee (same reason why Amex acceptance is so spotty due to their higher fees), and the floor limit for cards that trigger a 'full auth' transaction, rather than an offline one.

Now that pretty much all card machines are always connected then the full auth thing is less of a problem but again that may depend on the setup.

As a related observation, my local pharmacy is still cash only (or was when I went last year). So I generally end up using others.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I guess it goes both ways then, as the policy will make some spend more, but put other customers off.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Once cashless it becomes possible for someone "in control" to prevent you buying or selling. They could monitor what you buy and sell, where you do it.


Again it's not the powers now that would be a concern but what a future regime could do if the tools and mechanisms are in place.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

But they can do this already. It is functionally impossible for you to maintain a normal, 21st century British lifestyle while spending only cash. You have to interact with the financial system, and someone 'in control' and with malign intent could already make that very difficult for you.

Cash is in reality now only used for small purchases and there is little more an oppressive regime can do to you by interfering with that, than it could already do by interfering with the systems by which you pay for transport, housing, insurance and utilities.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

True but with cash it is possible to "go underground" and use cash. You could even sell stuff to get cash to buy other stuff. Without cash that becomes a whole lot more difficult.
With cash "dishonest" traders could accept cash at a premium because they can use cash too.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Perhaps, but you’re now so far down the rabbit hole you’re describing a dystopian fantasy, very far removed from anywhere we could plausibly find ourselves in the foreseeable future. If you think that future is plausible enough that you need to argue for measures to help you cope with it there are other things you also ought to be doing, like digging a massive bunker under your house and filling it with long-life rations.

The reality is that when a domestic money system fails, or doesn’t enjoy the confidence of the people, the people find other tokens of exchange. Hence the widespread use of the US Dollar in 1990s Russia. I believe cartons of cigarettes were quite popular currency too.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Yes, if/when cash is made obsolete, i'm sure that something else will be used as currency, particularly by the criminal underworld.

It's already happened with online currency by the use of cryptocurrency.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Cryptocurrency is a way of doing it, but let’s not forget that gold and other precious commodities are also a universally accepted store of value. There will never be a shortage of ways to pay for something that a government can’t track - none of which need seriously concern us here. The barrier to our financial system isn’t caused by our government, nor is it ever likely to be. It is the increasing use of technology and remote customer service that makes it harder for those who have difficulty engaging with such things, for whatever reason. Cash in some form is therefore unlikely to disappear any time soon.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Maybe they will scrap cash, but keep the £5 note and anything below it, apart from copper.

Edit: But then what's to stop someone paying for £5,000 worth of drugs in fivers!!

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I still don't see what spending the ordinary Jo(e) would wish to keep secret from the authorities.

Perhaps you can give me one example of something you buy that would cause you a problem if the government found out. It's the same question whether we live in a democracy or future dictatorship.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

I still have around £15 left of the £300 I took out last March, I've only spent cash in my Chinese Take-way which is cash only.


I will normally use cash for stuff under £5, but in the last year I've used contactless.


For me Upping the limit to £100 isn't an issue as my weekly shopping bit is around £60.


Plus My wallet has so much plastic in it isn't in my trouser pocket

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

How about buying Bibles? They may not be banned but in some countries the authorities could be interested in those buying them, especially in editions for children/young people and in local languages.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Don't get started on French!:D

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Again ... risk assessment takes account not just of the worst that could happen, but also its likelihood. if we got to the stage where our government was in to oppressively monitoring religious affiliation, there would be a whole lot of other things to worry about than whether you could still pay for a Bible with a £10 note.

I think you've been reading a bit too much Frank Peretti. ;)

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

My Dad worked on big banking projects BACS and then Chip and Pin for VISA and his view was always that these things are good but having the option of cash does prevent or greatly reduce the chances of preventing trade.


Revelation 13:16–18 (ESV): 16 Also it causes all, both small and great, both rich and poor, both free and slave, to be marked on the right hand or the forehead, 17 so that no one can buy or sell unless he has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of its name. 18 This calls for wisdom: let the one who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man, and his number is 666.


I believe that this will happen, I don't know what "the mark" will be but removing cash would make the implementation of the above much more possible.

Re: Contactless cards and the future of cash
 

Yeah .... back in my youth group days we all thought it would be barcode tattoos, and we were amazed and awestruck because (apparently) the start/midpoint/end markers on a barcode are all a number 6 ... 666 ... geddit ...

Anyhow, what you're proposing is a a big, big stretch, based on a theologically pre-millennial view of history. It's worth remembering that pre-millennialism was an alien concept in Christian thought until the mid 19th century. For most of church history Revelation has *not* been seen as a warning of seven years of etc etc etc and we ought not to be persuaded by that view just because a few glitzy American authors have filled the Christian fiction shelves with it. ;)

Pre-Millennialism is a dangerous concept because it tends to lead to Christians treating the world as a basket case to be retreated from, and thereby blunts the vital message of Jesus' teaching in places like the Sermon on the Mount, where engagement, rather than resignation and retreat, is clearly what he has in mind.

Which takes us both thoroughly off-topic and somehow into the sort of territory that was a constant sub-plot on this forum back in its early days. :D I should add that back in those days I was as fervently pre-millennial as the rest of them. The difference is I'm coming to the end of a theology degree and I'm about to enter full-time ministry, so I've had the luxurious blessing of nearly four years to study this sort of thing in depth. Historical context is a great thing in theology.