Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Found this interesting: http://www.vnunet.com/itweek/news/22...es-annoy-users

Especially this quote: (My bold btw)
These are the sort of reports BT, et al should be taking notice of.

OB

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Reading an email sent to the ICO now, BT planned to target the Kingston area, aiming to sign up 10,000 of 25,000 customers.

They planned to use an interstitial pop-up the first time a browser was used.

BT then planned a wider roll-out after the trial.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That 30th May letter is probably the ICO to BT equivalent of the ICO to myself letter. Same date and same conclusion.

I would hope that my follow up letter to them after that date, and the noises from the EU since would have made the ICO realise that they need to take action and that the 30th of May letters were totally inadequate.

I have not had a reply to my follow up letter yet. I do hope the ICO make the correct decision.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Does that not go against the surveys from phorm/BT sugesting that customers were reacting positively to the scheme?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Picture of the interstitial BT planned to use.

Look at the level of information given about profiling, and the size of the [YES] [NO] buttons.

Also confirms, if you delete your cookies, you get prompted to opt in or out again (ie, you CAN'T opt out entirely)

If you live in Kingston, phone BT, ask for your MAC code.

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/06/8.png

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

is that interception before the choice without consent in the first instance.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

A breach is a breach...

As there is no evidence to suggest otherwise - BECAUSE NO EVIDENCE WAS ASKED FOR.

How can this assumption be made without looking into the details... Cmon ICO, a house with a history of subsidence may or may not have significant detriment to the Home Owner's wellbeing - BUT A SURVEY IS STILL NEEDED.

[biting tongue........]

:mad:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The Kingston area itself was not targetted. They mean the Kingston RAS. This covers most of of Southern England, parts of Scotland and Wales so guinea pigs could have come from anywhere in the country.

See this post:

Kingston Ras

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Looks that way to me. Its not 'opt in' at all.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is not enough information there to make informed consent.
BT fail to say Phorm will be logging theri surfing habits, mirroring the site harvesting key words, to target adverts tot hem for a start.

No information on the history of Phorm.

Personal view if I was met by that I would refuse then start to reseach it if I had not already heard of it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm sure you're right, but what they told the ICO was the service "will be trialled from 12th March to 16 April in the Kingston area. We will be targetting around 25,000 BT Broadband customers with he aim of getting 10,000 signed up users of the BT Webwise service".

They even tell the ICO "Nothing will change to the way the BT Broadband service is provided today to those customes who do not wish to join the trial" (apart from the fact they will have to carry cookies in every single application to indicate that they didn't want to participate).

Its just gross.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More so... NO mention of Phorm...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

How much more informed could the consent be? You know it's hard to explain.

:mad:

Edit - beaten by Florence.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

19 March - ICO were experiencing 15+ calls a day about Phorm, and described it as "significant issue in terms of volume".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Its exactly as most of us thought it would be, nice and fluffy, trusty BT logo, emphasis on anti-phishing, less adverts etc. And it's all FREE!!

Complete and utter BS.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

This may correlate with the 1-2% or so, 10,000 to 25,000

It could be that the Kingston RAS has 1 Million users.

This is just another example of BT being economical with the truth and spinning.

They are trying to imply that the tests only involved a small local exchange (Weston-Super-Mare) in my case. But it is clear they mean one RAS exchange was used in the trial and that had the potential of intercepting a Million customers.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

good, and dont forget to write up a Cable Forum News release based on the findings there,ASAP ,including our esteemed CF member Baroness sue's CF post quote ;) , the #10000 protest post details would be a good thing too as a build up, and have Mick or one of the others place it on the news page to get full world wide news coverage pointing here in minutes....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I am going to have to scan this whole dossier. Its just utterly staggering.

Can someone tell me who was the PR Week Award 2007 winner?

The name of the originators of some email has been obscured, but I'm guessing the originator was the winner of the PR Week Award 2007 ;)

---------- Post added at 15:34 ---------- Previous post was at 15:32 ----------

Can anyone in the Bristol area volunteer a sheet fed scanner?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I had an email from Baroness Miller today too, just to add to the action :)

She has marked the protest in her diary and hopes to attend. She too feels there would be value in speaking to the public the day before she address HoL again.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Deleted: Irrelevant

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.citigatedewerogerson.com/awards.html

PR Week Award 2007, Winner Best Financial Campaign

They exchanged many emails with ICO on Phorms behalf, "[Phorm] determination to be totally open and positively engage is even impressing critics, it seems".

It would be funny if it wasn't so untrue.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I bet BT/Phorm wish they could have stopped you getting that dossier of info.

Good work Pete.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Bet the ICO had wanted tonot hand it over but thankfully the FOI helps

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

More documents.

Home Office cover note from their advice document makes clear they have been involved with Phorm for 'some time' prior to January 2008... Details here

Update; the cover letter originated from Simon Watkin (see email address in the header)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No wonder he stopped replying to emails he knew he was in trouble...

I still have all my emails from him if you want them?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just think how much more is being left undisclosed though, Hence as you see, we NEED that FOI and ICO directives extended and enforced to include all private companies correspondence Baroness Miller ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ok, so the HO are caught out AGAIN:

Is this the same HO who stated that the document was NOT specifically produced for Phorm???

I smell a rat - it can be SAFELY assumed that a request for the document had been made; subsequently a 'generalised' view had been created by the HO, built around the Phorm System...

I'd love to see the HO beat that rap....

:angel:

EDIT: Complaint being drafted re HO blatant 'Croneyism'.

EDIT 2: Try not to differentiate two Government bodies whilst kids screaming at yer feet ....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

good, lets hope theres a tripod and cam handy, or at least a stong box to rest any cam phone so not to have a shaky video capture of any interesting public record of this one time event.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

What a wonderful week this is turning out to be...

first - NebuAd trials are frozen by their ISP, Charter.
second - Baroness Miller posts support in the forums.
third - Meglena Kuneva, EU Consumer Commissioner promises tighter legislation on internet privacy and data interception
fourth - the ICO release a batch of damning evidence.

Can it get any better?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Alexander, you'll love this.

Take a look at this document.

BT explain that they dropped cookies, but don't tell ICO how, or why (the 2006 report tells you it was done to circumvent the BT terms and conditions that would have prevented them dropping cookies).

They then swapped the 'default ad' (they don't mention it was a charity advert) for a targeted one when possible.

They estimate 15,000 cookies users PER DAY.

There's almost nothing about the 2007 trial.

And BT seem surprised by the idea it should be opt in.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

pete, i assume if this is the right PRweek, then the peoples pictures are in that bunch somewere, they even have a handy bulk download so you can save them for later sorting ;) 500meg though
http://www.prweek.com/uk/news/articl...k-awards-2007/

dont know if its only valid for my connection but its bulked here
http://www.theimagefile.com/bd/a0725...7a62d0d145.zip

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I would love to have been a fly on the wall during that "little chat" mentioned at the end...

"Opt-In? You have to kidding surely? You realise that will kill our catchment figures? Surely there is an arrangement we can come to with regards to opt-out?"

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT go into a tailspin as ICO tell them "consent is more than simply 'not opting out' ".

:doh:

Even confirms "there would need to be some form of action where the individual knowingly indicates their consent to the processing".

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

And that was only due to 'a couple of luddites and an anorak' kicking up a fuss.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Surely big companies that seek extensive legal advice should not be surprised by this (PECR)? :D

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

European Commission get suckered too.

A question for any passing EU Commissioners, how is having your entire data communication intercepted a privacy enhancement?


Woah... it says Phorm should present its technology to the Article 29 Working Party.

Isn't that the working party 80/20 Thinking are chairing?

:omg:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Pete FYI the 'Home Office Covert Investigation Policy Team' is the team including Simon Watkin that ran the consultations on RIPA, inter alia.
http://p10.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/blog/ripa3/

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I've hesitated to scan the mails concerning earlier launch dates that BT cancelled.

I've included this one because it is more current, June 2008.

Its not clear whether the email originates from Phorm or BT, but it suggests either BT or Phorm were expecting trials to start in early June (obviously, the dates have gone by already)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm not sure, but looking.

UPDATE: Doesn't look like they are fundamental to 'Article 29'.

Meanwhile... a little of their opinions, which incidently back up ours. TBH, I think they will be trying to sway opinion.

http://www.privacyinternational.org/...m20041115b.pdf

---------- Post added at 16:58 ---------- Previous post was at 16:53 ----------

PR? likely :

http://www.phorm.com/reports/Article_29_Apr8-08.pdf

This appears to be the ruling they reference:

http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj...8/wp148_en.pdf

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

There is conflict of interests and this needs to be highlighted to them. Simon needs to consider his reputation if he fails to declare conflict of interests and brings Phorm into this meeting he is turning his back on all the good work he completed before Phorm bought him.

An image that is worth looking at see if you can spot the difference?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

So, from that e-mail the trial was going to start on monday 9th June.
That may explain all the news articles stating the trial was 'imminent'

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

i cant find the post on this thread right now, but yes it was something to do with them, but indirectly i seem to remember.

im keeping an eye on this http://ec.europa.eu/justice_home/fsj...s/index_en.htm
and nothing in their news seems to relate to it yet.

they (the Eu/A29WP) are asking for External Experts as in 3rd party tech experts to be on call to advise on web tech matters etc, but i cant find the direct URL to it now off there, perhaps some here can find it, and apply for some posts...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

No DPI gets a mention as the trial in early June is cancelled.

Looks like ICO are talking to BT lawyers.

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 17:05 ----------

The last, and perhaps the most intriguing of all the documents.

Mostly blacked out, but one phrase left to contemplate...

"we anticipate that matters may rest here"

I don't expect that means what I hope it means, but it would be nice to think so.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"[BT]considering our options....given the innaccuracy of much of the comment..."
[on nodpi.org? Page 10 - ad hijacking post]"

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Id echo those comments.. Seriously good job!;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Some conclusions then;

• ICO have comprehensively failed to understand Phorm, or demonstrate independent regulation
• ICO have not adequately investigated the trials of 2006, and particularly 2007
• ICO have not sought any technical data from BT during the investigation
• ICO have not sought independent industry expertise
• European Commissioners have similarly been fooled into believing Phorm, effectively mass communication interception, was some kind of privacy enhancing technology
• Simon Watkin of the Home Office has been engaged with Phorm for 'some time' prior to January 2008
• BT have tried to pull the wool over the Information Commissioners, paying lip service to requests for information

:doh:

Idiots all of them.

And we need to redouble the effort to get the message over.

I'm told Derek Wyatt MP is interested in Phorm.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

That's got to relate to the legal threats to Alex, surely?

EDIT : Great work Pete, have a coffee, your hands must be falling off!

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Well done Pete, bloody brilliant.
Take Five. :)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

It does... https://nodpi.org/?p=10 is referenced in the e-mail

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

re: MP's

I don't know about the House of Lords or the EU but the MPs go on their long summer holiday from 28th July.

If we don't get any action out of them by then I doubt we will until late September. It would be a shame if any support by them fizzles out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

he is my MP, will drop him a letter, i am in brum tonight in a hotel, so plenty of time to email him and suggest if he want i can meet to explain more

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

so in a nut shell where does everyone stand now?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm just to the right of the fridge freezer and adjacent to the living room door.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

you sure now you not sat in a chair in front of a screen and k/b ;)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I don't. I'm sitting down, because I'm lazy like that.

(BTW, hi again all. Once again, I go away for a few days and miss some massive bombshells.)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Another "well done" here, Pete

Webwise, Phorm, BT, Talk Talk, Virgin Media, The Home Office and DOI, 80/20 Thinking, a veritable army of PR parasites, lawyers,etc ...

Not a truthful word
Not a shred of integrity
Nothing

Why am I NOT surprised ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

WOW, excellent work Pete. Hopefully this will cause more bad publicity for BT and they won't want to start the trial at the same time.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Pete, Your like a dog with a bone ;) :clap:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

http://www.woofdistribution.com/imag..._gets_bone.jpg

WOOF WOOF pete.

Google found it so it must be ok :-)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Joking aside... where does everyone stand now in light of this information?
(With still more to come)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yeah I think Mr Hanff alluded to some info he can't release as its under NDA, i PM'd him about it.

But toms friday and maybe it will become clear then.


Who else has FOI requests outstanding ?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Me, but I dont expect as much info as Pete and it may be duplicated.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

eyes are in over load they rolling and can`t keep up.
:erm:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I think the proposed webwise interstitial sign up page shows exactly what the intentions and motivations are of phorm and BT. Does it look as if it is designed to allow an end user to make an informed choice about staying subscribed to a 'service' which trades away some privacy for the (dubious) benefits of 'less irrelevant advertising'? Or does it look like something designed to mislead users into signing up for something they don't understand, without knowing what they are committing to or what the implications are? Clearly it is designed to trick the unwary into participating. In fact is exactly like the sort of EULA fine print found in spyware products such as those with which 121media and Ertugral made their ill gotten gains.

So if anyone ever again tries to portray webwise as something good for the consumer, just show them the page, and then lets see them defend it.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

"reduces the number of irrelevant adverts you see on participating websites"

that would suggest to people they will actually see fewer adverts, NOT the same number just targeted at them due to spying on there browsing

that is just down right misleading

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

that is in NO WAY ,SHAPE OR FORM, in line with any concept of Informed consent from any legal system anywere

that is and advert for inadequate phishing protection you dont need as you already have it in your default browser and that is in its best light.

its CON trick, a SHAM......


there is not mention in any shape or form, that by clicking that yes/on link YOU are infact agreeing to something totally unrelated to the text on that page, your right to privacy, and potentially signing away your ability to profit from your unique copyrighted datastream property.

at no point do they even point out your every web click, and page visited will be collected,collated, processed, and perhaps after all that, finally anonymised and sent to a "derivative work" that you can not then finantially profit from.

that page wouldnt pass go in any court of law....but it might make you a few quid after you take them to court.

so they want you to click yes, and that gives them the right to do something totally
unrelated to the text you have read and agreed to.

fine, if thats the case , by allowing said user to click yes they agree that by placing a BT,webwise or any other DPI associated cookie in any form,on the agreeing users machine, BT also agree to pay said user £100 an hour or nearlest hour which ever is the greater, plus VAT and all delivery charges, in advance, and in cash ,delivered to the acount holders front door no later than 9am, , for their storage per single cookie on said users machine ;) for starters, you can make your own rules up as you go, if the commercial pirates for profit can make it up, so can the paying users.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

print some off and take a on the street view by asking anyone what it means to them also needs a online one as well.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Very good idea that image needs posting on as many forums as possible asking people to say what they think they are agreeing to if they clicked to accept?

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Permission to link Sir! ??
(Thinks about bandwidth usage due to the amount of hits to dephormation)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just noticed the bottom line "if you delete your cookies you will be asked to switch on BT WebWise again"

so they will just badger you until you give in

peter

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Re: that Weblies image:

I'm bothered by that line that says If this is so, why do they keep insisting "no data will be kept or stored anywhere", and "that it's all deleted immediately the page you request loads", etc? What data are they talking about?

OB

Incidentally, isn't that PR firm mentioned above the one that had their people posting in forums all over the place in the guide, PhormTechTeam? I'm sure it's the same lot that BadPhorm outed, (could be wrong, though).

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

perhaps a few copies on a few different websites I host one for a while or any one with plenty of bandwidth willing to host a copy so we can get the message out.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Yes, the second they make Your Unique datastream pass to that Deep Packet Inspection/Interception device , and power it up , it will be collecting your data, no two ways about it.

it is Interception Before choice or agreement to allow them to intercept your data property.

and as we all know, that is against RIPA, DPA, Copyright, etc, the second they plug it in ,power it up, and the observing ICO team instantly fail, Phorm fail, and BT fail.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

You're welcome to link to those images. They're hosted on Dephormation at present.

I need to compile a page by page electronic version of the dossier so you can read the same horror story, but I could do with a batch scanner.

---------- Post added at 21:32 ---------- Previous post was at 21:30 ----------

You're right. Its Citigate Dewe Rogerson.

---------- Post added at 21:35 ---------- Previous post was at 21:32 ----------

I'm waiting on a Home Office FoI, due early July.

July is shaping up to be 'interesting'. Don't go on holiday without a laptop.

And if you're on BT, particularly under Kingston RAS, get your MAC code and move now.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

ImageCave link - "Unlimited" bandwidth, apparently. Is that like my "Unlimited" 20Mb VM cable broadband then? :erm:

Dave

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

just sent the below via theyworkforyou, now wait and see what comes back

thanks to inphomationdesk for the template

peter

**************************

Dear Derek Wyatt,

As one of your constituents I would like to draw your attention to the issue of privacy related to a new advertising system called BT WebWise and it is promoted by a company called “Phorm”, this system may soon be utilised by Internet Service Providers in this country. BT have already done 'secret' (and illegal!) trials in 2006 and 2007.

Virgin Media and Talk Talk are currently in talks with Phorm with a view to introducing the system later this year.

The technology which causes greatest concern is that of Deep Packet Inspection and its use by an advertising company. This unit is installed by Phorm but gifted to the ISP to circumvent data protection act issue of a third party processing data on the ISP's network - the ISP has no access to it so cannot test, check or verify anything about the unit - and it inspects every packet of data which passes through it whether the customer is opted in or out this is shown on the BT network diagram (if opted out the customer is just not served adverts).

The alleged idea of this technology is to read ALL internet activity by a customer and use the information to better target on-line advertising. However, there are grave concerns over the method of encoding used to keep user’s details anonymous and over the level of permission needed for this software to install itself and begin running.

Everyone who works from home, be they home workers or members of Parliament or anyone in-between would find their data being subjected to the kind of inspection only intended for law enforcement activities and which would only ever be available to a judge following due legal process. Confidential material worked on by yourself or your colleagues, critically confidential business, personal or even security information could well be intercepted and examined. This includes constituants emails to and from yourself if a constituant uses a web based email service (although phorm do say they have a list of 100 webmail systems they do not look at, but bear in mind that is a small fraction of the number or web mail system out there and they will not publish which ones they are or how to get others added)

I am suspicious of this software, which bears so much similarity to “spyware”, indeed there are reports that some employees of Phorm are former spyware developers. I do not trust these people to have so much unprecedented access to my
internet usage information, my preferences, habits and political views.

if you dig into the background of phorm they changed their name from 121media last year , 121media was responsible for a nasty spyware application called "people on page" which used root kit technology (very difficult to remove as it embeds itself very deeply into windows).

if you dig into Kent Ertugrul (phorms CEO) you find most of his ventures involve collecting personal information on people

if you dig into the programing team behind WebWise you find "The development team for the new software was recruited from Moscow's elite Lebedev Institute of Precision Mechanics and Computer Engineering, a vital part of of the Cold War spying effort and still a centre for developing Russia's 'national security' computer systems." - Mail on Sunday article

the information presented by both phorm and BT to the ICO and HO has been lacking important detail and talked about general principles and there have been a number of news articles exposing these facts, look at http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/06...horm_meetings/ or https://nodpi.org

there is also an early day motion about this by don foster http://edmi.parliament.uk/EDMi/EDMDe...px?EDMID=35552

and a petition on the PM's website http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/ispphorm/ with nearly 15,000 signatures since march

i have also asked BT if there are sufficient controls to prevent my children from accepting this service on my behalf and changing my contract with BT (as to accept webwise you have to accept a change to the privacy clause of the contract) as there is no check on the opt-in / opt-out website (which is runn by phorm and at a hosting centre outside the main BT network to ensure the person enacting the initial change to the contract is the account holder as there would be issues allowing phorm (a third party) access to the BT customer database to verify the username and password of the account holder, i have recieved the answer it is my responsibility, this is clearly unacceptable

Feel free to ask for any further information and links.

I would ask that you convey my concerns to the relevant political authorities and ensure that, if Phorm is allowed to progress at all, that hefty restrictions are placed on its ability to intrude on consumer privacy.

I would like permission to post your reply on cable forum ( http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/12...-page-675.html) feel free to come in and join the debate

you will see there has been a lot of information release regarding this under a FOI request on the forum

Yours sincerely,

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I can tell you all now that Phorm are not involved in the Article 29 working party in any way what so ever because I know for a fact they are not, so don't worry about that.

Alexander Hanff

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

With regard to the interstitial page, it would be interesting to know what clicking on 'Find out more' will bring up

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

holly molly, people REALLY need to read your linked post
that RAS is covering, so many SERVING EXCHANGEs i lost count after 10 pages, a total of 32 full pages werth, and thats not even counting the seperate peoples homes in each areas that are connected to those SERVING EXCHANGEs connected to that/those Kingston RAS DPI devices.

i was going to copy it here as i find BP really hard to find information without a link somewere else,i even loose the few posts iv made there :erm:,but ill leave that up to you....

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'll try to get the whole lot scanned and up on Dephormation soon. I'll try to structure it to make the docs accessible. It won't look pretty (I'm tech not graphics!) but I'll try to get the navigation easy to use.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

BT really have to be brought to task over this those in high managment need to be removed from control.

---------- Post added at 22:08 ---------- Previous post was at 22:05 ----------

Alex I really hope they are not asked to go but after reading it in those notes today and since 80/20 are chairing it, trust is not what comes naturally at present.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

If this document is correct then BT and Phorm are misrepresenting good and services, breaking The Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008

Specifically

Part 2, Prohibitions. Sub section Misleading Omissions.

6.—(1) A commercial practice is a misleading omission if, in its factual context, taking account of the matters in paragraph (2)—
(a) the commercial practice omits material information,
(b) the commercial practice hides material information,
(c) the commercial practice provides material information in a manner which is unclear, unintelligible, ambiguous or untimely, or.....

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2008/uksi_20081277_en_1

(Thanks to Annie Hall for directing me to the legislation)

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I believe the EU suggested that Phorm present Webwise to the Article 29 working party "on the basis that it enhances privacy".

Whether that means Phorm themselves present it i'm not sure.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

tech is good, pritty, well thats in the eye as it were, personally id advocate a totally seperate "moobunny" style free form page for BP that gets auto updated with any new posts and subjects as it happens, Seriously it really works for keeping track and looking back as a super low bitrate wayback machine type page ,and the moobunny on page google search link works perfectly with Johns custom MB layout, simple but good.

http://moobunny.dreamhosters.com/amiga/

you can keep the main part as you do now, just link in a Moobunny style side page somewere and its then easy to see and keep track of 3 days werth of posting.

i must warn you though, the moobunys are rather odd , and dont mention the amiga court case or documents etc :angel:

id go as far as to say a simple layout "moobunny" type page with NO pre-registration in any form is a great way to serve the on the fly "low bitrate" live protest posting if someone can make it.

sure you get trolls and bad posts, but on ballance its a good thing not having to register to post first.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'm standing by.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Probably this page:

http://webwise.bt.com/webwise/how-it-works.php

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

First two batches of docs available to download as PDFs. Let me know if there are any problems;

http://www.badphorm.co.uk/e107_plugi...topic.php?6987

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Got this PR thing down pat, haven't they?

BT PRscrewup part deux

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Regardless on if phorm present it or they have this information to read with 80/20 thinking chairing thye have to declare the conflict of interests and withdraw from that part or it is expected they will manipulate this meeting to get phorm accepted.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The more I look at that BT 'consent' form the more angrier I get. If that is really BT's informed consent form to WebWise privacy spying, I hope it will be added to their list of crimes when they finally get their legal comeuppance.

Although I am angry, should I really be surprised?

After all, BT now has the joint experience of Phorm(121Media) and I suspect Phorms experience of how they originally got the uninformed public to allow rootkits and spyware to infest PC's to propagate their old ad spyware network. I personally see little difference in the presentation of this screen and presentation the PeopleOnPage bar.

In my opinion they both could fool the public as to what really happens to to your data and also the real intent of what the public could be agreeing to beforehand.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Thats new [to me], I haven't seen that one before.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

as for the ICO files, I will host them all for as long as required, leech away. unlimited BW

www.btweblies.com

Jtech

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

is it me how i see things as i see that they putting the smallest part of it the anti phishing in big eye catching form info first and the real main reason for the service 2nd and small and not so eye catching.


oi web browsers come with anti phishing built in and they work without the adverts.
:dunce:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

perhaps if the baroness turns up , hopefully she might even see fit to inform and bring along some of her peers too, someone can ask her, what exactly was it that also gave her the misguided initial opinion that Phorm were as the EU also seem to think was so great, a simple lack of basic laymans/womans details being given them ,talking up the it "doesnt store" lie, or forgetting to mention the very first data protection rule "dont collect" without good reason, never mind collate,process,store,export etc.

it would be good to understand why (as in why did they beleave the tale being told) and how they are being lied to to get he required effect and complience.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

OK, am I being dumb: "The ICO has not contacted any independent IT experts for their view on Webwise since being made aware of the 2007 trails(sic) on 10 March 2007"

dates of contacts between ICO and Phorm, 8020 and BT:

1st contact Phorm 20/03/08
1st contact BT - 03/04/08
8020 - never

So who informed them of the trials in March 2007? I thought the 2007 trials were later in the year.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

We're kind of aiming at a peripheral target here and it might be an idea to give officialdom room to 'manoeuvre'. Technology moves at a pace and it is unlikely that anyone can keep abreast of all of the change all of the time. They are getting up to speed and it might serve us better to get them onside; we need allies not enemies.

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

Full suite of scanned docs now uploaded to Dephormation as PDFs.

Links below, thread on Badphorm if you need full hi res scans, or a CD copy.

FoI Response, Covering letters (9Mb)

Letters from ICO to BT, and BT to ICO (9Mb)

Email Correspondence Batch 1 (6Mb)
Email Correspondence Batch 2 (6Mb)
Email Correspondence Batch 3 (6Mb)

Goodnight. :sleep:

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

:D :tu::wavey:

finally, Mr Angry arrives, how are you ,have you read all the thread yet MrA ?

why is it that the professional's dont really comment on the legal matters raised in all this MrA ?,even a personal view from a trained professional would be valuable, that really bothers me...

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

I'll leave you with a thought from the email signature of the ICO staff;

"The Information Commissioner's office cannot guarantee that this message or any attachment is virus free or has not been intercepted and amended and you should perform your own virus checks"

:dunce:

https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/...2008/07/25.gif https://www.cableforum.co.uk/images/local/2008/06/7.png

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 

The only thing that surprises me about the webwise invitation page is that everyone here seems surprised by it.

I think we all knew exactly what it would say, and indeed some of us said as much several months ago - almost word perfect.

Did you expect anything else from a company who have spyware experts on hand to design it?