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-   -   Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797] (https://www.cableforum.uk/board/showthread.php?t=33628733)

roadrunner69 24-03-2008 20:38

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
A bit sceptical given that CS know nothing at the best of times

Anonymouse 24-03-2008 20:39

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexanderHanff (Post 34512993)
I have a friend who works as a VM engineer and he is hitting a brick wall every time he asks questions about Phorm. He says it is not an isolated problem either, non of the engineers he knows have been able to get any info from the superiors about whether or not Phorm is already being tested.

Which seems to imply something's going on. I hate to sound paranoid, but this suggests we have to assume for our own protection that it is live. Or if it isn't (and how the hell do we confirm/deny that?), could he give us some sort of early warning?

On the other hand, if it has been or is being tested, explicit consent has not been obtained and Virgin would therefore be in breach of RIPA and the DPA - we need proof one way or the other. They surely wouldn't be that stupid, though, given the BT case. Or would they? Is this arrogance on their part, or are they just dumb? Or maybe they think we're dumb?

Jesus wept, this is starting to sound like something out of Enemy of the State! Isn't there any legal way we can force an answer from Virgin? Freedom of Information Act, maybe (do we have one?)? Does anyone here know anyone who works in news media?

mark777 24-03-2008 20:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I don't think VM are getting anywhere near the flak they deserve. They are content to let Phorm take it all.

There are hints of a VM takeover (project co-axial)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2...richardbranson

If this is the case they will not want any mass defections of 'marketing opportunities', nor would they want anything about any possible trials coming to light.

I'm not saying thay have conducted trials, but the best thing to do with any possible take-over in the background is to keep silent, especially when it will also delay mass defections.

The cost of a scandal or mass defections, in a take-over situation, will dwarf the potential profits to VM from Phorm.

OF1975 24-03-2008 21:21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Ok followed a link from the badphorm website to get to this blog:

http://seanprice.net/blog/2008/phorm-talk-back/

That blog includes a response that PhormTechTeam emailed to him and I quote:

"We believe that, given the chance to understand our technology, people will reach the same conclusion as Privacy International and external auditor Ernst and Young: that Webwise represents a major, postive breakthrough in online privacy."

Now, to be fair to Phorm, its unclear precisely when this email was sent but the timestamp for the blog itself is dated today. If their email to this blogger was sent in the last few days then it seems Phorm are still peddling the lie that Privacy International supported/audited them when in fact it was 80/20 Thinking. Do they not get it? Every time they lie, obfuscate, mislead us, that they damage their own PR argument that "you can trust us" etc

lucevans 24-03-2008 21:52

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flowrebmit (Post 34512937)
My understanding was that the RIPA (2000) was introduced so that the police state had sweeping powers to spy on us. I think it ironic that this Act might be a way of stopping Phorm.

Under RIPA, the government are still required to gain a court order before initiating interception of a suspect's communications, and to get that court order they must presumably convince a judge that there is just cause.
Once Phorm's hardware is in place, the monitoring of everyone's internet traffic will be constant and persistent; so should a change of statute be made after that point in time, the data will already have been aggregated ready for big brother to browse...

I agree with you that if RIPA can be used to kill this Phorm deal, it'll be ironic :p:

---------- Post added at 20:52 ---------- Previous post was at 20:41 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by OF1975 (Post 34513047)
Ok followed a link from the badphorm website to get to this blog:

http://seanprice.net/blog/2008/phorm-talk-back/

That blog includes a response that PhormTechTeam emailed to him and I quote:

"We believe that, given the chance to understand our technology, people will reach the same conclusion as Privacy International and external auditor Ernst and Young: that Webwise represents a major, postive breakthrough in online privacy."

Now, to be fair to Phorm, its unclear precisely when this email was sent but the timestamp for the blog itself is dated today. If their email to this blogger was sent in the last few days then it seems Phorm are still peddling the lie that Privacy International supported/audited them when in fact it was 80/20 Thinking. Do they not get it? Every time they lie, obfuscate, mislead us, that they damage their own PR argument that "you can trust us" etc

I wonder how much longer these supposedly intelligent people at Phorm and their PR firm can continue to "believe" that UK ISP customers will "reach the same conclusion" as Ernst & Young, when everywhere they turn on the internet they see posts like those on this forum. It's been a month now, we've all been "given the chance to understand" their technology (more like: we've managed to find out how it works despite their best efforts to obfuscate) and we're still saying "**** OFF"

Anonymouse 24-03-2008 22:33

Wireshark
 
I found a reference to this via The Register - could the network techies here tell me:

a) Can we use this to test for interception?

b) How do we tell if it is happening?

c) If it is, can we use the logs as evidence for legal proceedings?

If the claims re CS telling people Phorm's live are true, then we may need to do something now - and perhaps do as little online banking/buying as possible until we know something.

Oh, nearly forgot to ask: would I need a VPN router to use a VPN client, or is it enough that my current (USR5461) router can handle VPN traffic? And if we all start using VPN, how long before HMG starts asking what we've all got to hide? :(

mark777 24-03-2008 22:59

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Anybody had one of these ...

Thanks for getting in touch with our team recently about the complaint you had about your Virgin Media service. We're always sorry to hear when things don't run exactly as you'd hoped, and we hope that things are now sorted out for you.

In fact, that's what we're writing about. At Virgin Media, we want to make sure we give you the best customer service we can. So we'd really like to find out how things went for you when we dealt with your issue.

We've put together a few quick questions about how things went, and we'd really appreciate it if you'd take the time to let us know your thoughts. It shouldn't take longer than around one minute to complete.

By finding out exactly how things went for you, we'll be able to understand the things we're getting right, and if there's anything you'd like us to do better. And we promise to use your feedback to make improvements where we can.

If you'd like to take part in our survey, just click the web address below. Or you can simply cut and paste the entire web address into the web address box of your internet browser.


[link]

Thanks very much in advance for your help.

Yours sincerely,

The whole team at Virgin Media

It goes on to say

Satmetrix Systems, a leading provider of customer experience management solutions, will be conducting the survey on behalf of Virgin Media

customer experience management solutions - leaves me feeling really warm and cuddly.

Q1 - Satisfaction with VM customer support.
Q2 - Likelyhood to recommend to friends and family.
Q3 - Reason for dissatisfaction.

Privacy manager indicated my name being pulled back several times, presumably via a cookie from VM webmail.

none 24-03-2008 23:19

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mark777 (Post 34513112)
Anybody had one of these ...

Haven’t had one but wish I had as I can answer two of those right now.

Q2 - Likelyhood to recommend to friends and family.

Absolutely, completely and utterly never ever under any circumstances. Would advise any and all who will listen NOT to use VM.



Q3 - Reason for dissatisfaction.

Many reasons, all of which can be summed up in one word; Phorm!

Ravenheart 24-03-2008 23:23

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
I got one this afternoon, in the would you recommend, I said "not a chance as long VM goes ahead with Phorm, and here was me thinking you had turned the corner and were starting to get things in order."

none 24-03-2008 23:40

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenheart (Post 34513128)
I got one this afternoon, in the would you recommend, I said "not a chance as long VM goes ahead with Phorm, and here was me thinking you had turned the corner and were starting to get things in order."

Virgin are as slippery as they come. This is something I’ve known for some time. I’ve avoided all their products & services successfully for many years all bar the cable service, of which you have no choice. Want cable broadband, you have to deal with this company :/

Whether it be opt in or opt out (you can even shake it all about!), any ISP that deals with a bunch of snakes like phorm deserves to lose a significant amount of its customer base. In trying to make a few more pennies a year with phorm they may in fact lose the pounds as users scramble around switching not just their broadband connection but their telephone and TV services too!!!

VM have the most to lose over this phorm fiasco, more so than BT or CW which is why it’s strange that they still appear to be pursuing it.

mark777 25-03-2008 01:31

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by none (Post 34513136)
Virgin are as slippery as they come.

Well, let's face it. They might be a media company, but nobody will ever call them auntie will they?:td:

AlexanderHanff 25-03-2008 02:51

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Rest assured, user migrations will not stop VM or any of the other ISPs involved from deploying this technology. Even if 50 000 people leave BT they still stand to make substantially more from Phorm than they will lose from the migrations.

You have to be a realist when dealing with such issues and that is why we must concentrate on the criminal aspects of this issue under RIPA.

Of course, that's not to say we shouldn't keep up the campaigning and try to educate as many people as we can, and it doesn't mean people shouldn't leave VM, BT and CPW but it is important to note that this battle will not be won by migrations.

Furthermore for every person who migrates out, there will be another person who doesn't know about Phorm or doesn't care, who will migrate in.

Dig in, put your helmets on and clean your rifles, because we are in for a long war.

Alexander Hanff

Bonglet 25-03-2008 03:44

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
im not in for a long war just in untill theres confirmation that phorm is live then bye bye as they broke there t&c's then ill be looking for suitable compensation also if it has been illeagally stealth rolled out.

Sirius 25-03-2008 07:35

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ravenheart (Post 34513128)
I got one this afternoon, in the would you recommend, I said "not a chance as long VM goes ahead with Phorm, and here was me thinking you had turned the corner and were starting to get things in order."

And me

Here was one of my answers

Quote:

If you introduce Phorm then i will be forced to leave you for tv,phone,broadband. I will move to BT for phone. Sky for TV, Be Unlimited for broadband. The choice is yours . To Phorm or not to Phorm.

yeticatcher 25-03-2008 11:21

Re: Virgin Media Phorm Webwise Adverts [Updated: See Post No. 1, 77, 102 & 797]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius (Post 34512726)
Simple

Your wrong.

So if you think its live give us some real evidence trace routes, cookies and which site you got them from.

Finally.

I have a very very good contact within VM core networks and he has told me "and i trust him 100% as i have known him for 12 years" that they are NOT testing nor do they have PHORM running in any of there POP sites at this time.

So give us the ruddy evidence is you are so ruddy certain. I have been running checks for the last 3 weeks and have seen no evidence what so ruddy ever of phorm being tested on the VM network.


so why don't you tell us what your real problem with VM is ????? instead of making comments that you don't seem to have evidence for.

OK, I'm painted as being gullible and thick... I can live with this :-) !!

So how do you test a transparent proxy assuming it's using port 80, 110 & 25?? Tracerouting won't work... and after BT's fiasco do you really think this will be cookie based?? (even in testing mode)

I honestly don't have any beef with VM. The services I have do pretty much what is written on the wrapper. Their internet conections have an up-time far greater than BT's (I'm watching an entire BT exchange with huge packet loss at the moment).

I was asking whether anyone else had noticed my obsevations - and no this is not an error with the double http form posting. I may be a newbee here, but 1 posting and you're making assumptions??? Tom


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