Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

Oh absolutely but surely that still begs the question of why said dictator/community leader was attracted to Islam in the first place. There are bad apples as leaders in all faiths (as well as in those who don’t have any faith) but they don’t appear to use other religions/beliefs to attract the nutters.

With white supremacists the clue is in the name, they want to be supreme over those they see as “lesser” so at least there a kind of ‘logic’ you can follow to explain (not excuse) their evil acts.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

I think the concept of identity is powerful there as well. Giving insecure and socially isolated people a sense of community and identity. That seems to be a common pattern either with Islamic extremism or white nationalism.

---------- Post added at 09:50 ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 ----------

But is it that different? They're both about being part of a 'tribe' and that being 'threatened' by the outside world...

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

I do think it’s different (but equally repugnant). The mainstream religions teach about love, peace and tolerance or thereabouts. White supremacy (as I understand it) is as far from these as possible.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

Well to be clear I am not equating white nationalism with religion obviously. :D

However I think there is similarity between them with the concept of radicalising, often vulnerable and isolated, people behind some form of community and identity. I also don't think the religion they're feeding these people is the religion of love, peace and tolerance you mean either.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

No I agree, that’s why I don’t refer to them as Muslims.

There may well be a similarity but I don’t consider them absolutely comparable. There are murderous elements in both sides obviously but I’m pretty sure you’ll agree it appears those claiming to be of Islam have killed far more than those subscribing to “white supremacy”.

Edit: and for clarity neither am I suggesting one side is any better or worse than the other.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

Another thing they should look at is how many highly educated people get suckered into the cause, I'm sure there's plenty of nutters but there's a worrying number of highly educated people secumbing to. That and the prisons, the obvious breeding ground where sometimes conversion is based on something as banal as a way of getting better dinners

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

Said community leaders are usually already Muslims. They use what they know, they don’t go looking for a novel ideology. The religion forms part of the cultural identity which they claim is being attacked/threatened and which they are standing up for.

At other points in history, and at other times, Christianity has been used in the same way. Hinduism is used as a nationalist cause in India. Even Budddhism has occasionally been used as a rallying point for nationalist violence.

Every religion contains within it enough teaching about the imperative of moral purity to allow someone so minded to twist it into an excuse for violent resistance or crusade.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

Again I don’t disagree but surely you can’t overlook how in this day and age it seems to happen far more in Islam (or in its name) than other faiths regardless of location around the globe.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

I don’t overlook it, but your thinking is three-dimensional .... at other points in history Islam hasn’t been that source of trouble, but Christianity has. In the medieval period crusades were an excuse for all sorts of raping and pillaging, and the crusaders sometimes didn’t even wait until they arrived in the Holy Land before getting started.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

Yeah I’m aware of that. The point I’m making in relation to history is we can’t change it, we can only change what happens now and in the future. And surely trying to identify why Islam attracts more of the murderous element is a good way to effect just that.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

At the risk of going round in circles ... the reason is that the socio-political circumstances that give rise to that sort of violence are presently often to be found amongst the poor and radicalised people whose community religion happens to be Islam.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

There is an important point here: the religion of Islam specifically lends itself able to be misrepresented by zealots. The Koran and the Hadith that follows it claim to be the "revealed truth of God" and as such are immutable. The ability of the modern day followers of religions to interpret the holy books is key to being able to defuse and invalidate the attempt to transpose the rules & edicts from 2000 years ago to today's societies.

Even fundamentalist Christians do not try and impose the many capital offense Old Testament laws today whereas the Islamists do exactly this because, and here's the distinction, the Koran is the last revealed truth of God as such cannot be changed.

Re: Shootings at 2 New Zealand Mosques
 

There are plenty of fundamentalist Christians who try to apply as much of the Old Testament as they can get away with to modern life, believe me.

The difference in interpretive method isn’t due to Muslims holding the Qu’ran to be the “Last Testament”; Christians hold the New Testament also to be the “Last Testament”.

The difference in interpretive practice between Muslims and most Christians is most likely due to the fact that the New Testament claims to be the writing of people who were inspired by God, whereas the earliest Muslim leaders claimed the Qu’ran was actually dictated to Mohammed by God. (This is also why many of them won’t read it in anything other than its original language, Arabic, whereas Christians are content to translate the Bible out of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into whatever language they require).